Toni Morrison interview on OJ Simpson (1997)

[@ManufacturingIntellect]

Check out these Toni Morrison books on Amazon! Conversations with Toni Morrison: geni.us/TjUZ The Source of Self-Regard: Selected Essays, Speeches, and Meditations: geni.us/BbwH Jazz: geni.us/wUuyFH Beloved: geni.us/JvOc7j Join us on Patreon! www.patreon.com/ManufacturingIntellect Donate Crypto! commerce.coinbase.com/checkout/868d67d2-1628-44a8-b8dc-8f9616d62259 Get Two Books FREE with a Free Audible Trial: amzn.to/313yfLe Checking out the affiliate links above helps me bring even more high quality videos to you by earning me a small commission on your purchase. If you have any suggestions for future content, make sure to subscribe on the Patreon page. Thank you for your support!

[@Me-ir7ls]

Toni Morrison’s brilliance is awe inspiring ❤.

[@South_African_Spirituality]

Respect to all black woman who are leaders Much Love and light to them

[@JesuSaves79]

Toni Morrison is a great American literary treasure! She aught to be required reading for all Americans!!

[@Ayesha_Michelle]

What a conversation, what’s interesting is they spent more time discussing the reason to discuss perception of Black Men than actually discussing IT. Fast forward, 30 years and interracial relationships are at an all time high, but the conversation still hasn’t been had❤

[@mareerogers364]

Some of them are tone deaf.

[@ATL1999]

Lord have mercy. Toni wasn’t no joke.. the real deal.

[@AC-ss5oy]

that is true. we barely heard about Timothy McVeigh because of this trial.

[@charlesrobinson8717]

She understands the big picture, and when you can see the big picture, you understand the media part in showing the rolls in the play

[@lazarocedeno5270]

You are so welcome.

[@trans-a.m.]

Phantasmagorical describes something with a dreamlike, fantastical, unreal, deceptive, or shifting appearance, like an optical illusion. Phantasmagorical is a big and relatively uncommon word, and you may encounter it more often in literary or learned contexts than in everyday conversation.

[@deloresboudreaux2755]

This was “ the trial of the Century. “

[@vengatureino1227]

Yep! In the contendings of Horace and set, in the Osiris mythology there is a trial that was supposed to be the biggest in world history in the end times

[@i_own_adog]

I never knew who Toni Morrison was until youtube algorithm recommended a video of her yesterday. Now today OJ Simpson dies and they recommend me this. Impeccable timing youtube algorithm.

[@hawkithreesixtydegree9017]

Yeah, perfect programming, which is also destructive as they don't let us know what they wanna completely keep in secret.

[@RedLeo-pf9yo]

Same here. I’m only 10 minutes in, but I’m liking what I’ve heard so far from her.

[@sheemakarp6424]

Charlie Rose 🤦🏽‍♀️

[@jcc152509]

He looked like a dope.

[@Iloveswedes]

This case was important to different people for differing reasons: For some, it confirmed what they believe about black people, white people, cops, courts, the system, so to speak, negative or positive, by any side. For others, it was about how media manipulates what we believe. For still others, it was about how the rich operate vs. everybody else. I think many black folks idolized OJ because of his athletic prowess and looked at what he did on the field and saw him as a hero, a superstar. He became a movie star and was in TV commercials. Whites came to like him, too, because they always adopt black people who are winners. They don't give a damn about average black folks - meanwhile, they lift up the average white man and woman as the everyman and should care about. They even wanted us to care more about Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson than OJ, even though we have no relationship or kinship with them. I'm not saying have no sympathy for the victims, and I didn't grow up idolizing OJ as some did, he was a little before my time - just knew who he was - but as a black person, I can see the harm the system has caused. I can see how blacks are disposable or instantly treated as suspects, so I wasn't a teen yet when this came out, but I understood how unfair things had been - even moreso today - in our history here. I think for some people, this was about revenge. Not necessarily against these particular white people, but for the system - the cops, the courts, the media, the whole legal and political system, the moneyed interests usually favor whites. You just had Rodney King and then the LA riots and all of the stuff that came out of that. Everybody already knew about the LAPD being racist (what police force in America, isn't it?) They looked like fools in this case. OJ was able to buy his freedom, regardless of if he were actually guilty or not, and the jury ruled in his favor, too. The system has been so corrupt, so obviously corrupt, that this was black people, in my view, thinking that it was representative of a win for the race, as they may have seen OJ in that light (some saw it that way). OJ, however, was not a "race man". He clearly married a white woman, but it wasn't simply that, he was not pro-black or caring about race until this case, it seems. It was a useful wedge, but it's also the truth, even if it didn't apply to him directly or explicitly. There were thinking that this case just sticks it to the man. That whites got to feel how it is to lose once. Because whites were livid. They don't always care if justice is served for black victims, so them being so invested in this case and it not going their way, with their own rules used against them, their own corrupt system and law tactics? That felt good, to me. It felt good that they, for once, got to know what it feels like to have this system serve up a ruling that was not only unsatisfying but unfair. It's rare that whites can get a glimpse into what it's like to be black in America, even though they know it is often thought of as a negative experience, so for them to collectively gasp at what their own "justice" system did by letting OJ off, it was gratifying. Not gratifying that good conquered evil, depending on what that means to somebody, but gratifying that for once, they get to feel pain and loss, that they feel some kind of shame, that they do not get exactly what they want and when they want it. They don't know those people, but they had sympathy for them, which is more than we could ever expect.

[@cheri238]

Very well written. ❤ Dr. Gerald Horne's history books on Afro-American history are important. American history on all sides and world histories, philosophy, sciences, religious divisions 8000 years before Christ.

[@austinbaumgarten2328]

This is the best comment I've ever read on youtube! You and I see the world similarly. I remember being in 5th grade, and my teacher put on the TV during class to watch the verdict live. Us kids were just excited to stop working and watch TV! I sat next to a Black girl, and I remember her going "Yes, yes,, yes!" after the jury said "not guilty," and I remember looking at her like she was crazy! I had just moved from LA to Northern California two years earlier, so I had lived through Rodney King and the Riots at a very young age, and I didn't even comprehend the racial tensions in the city, -- or really race as a concept at all! All I remember form that time was going outside in the morning, smelling smoke, and asking my parents who was barbecuing for breakfast. Anyway, as I grew up, I became more interested in literature, majored in English, read Ms. Morrison, feminist theory, critical race theory, etc. In that "theorist" mindset, I began to read about the LA of my childhood, about the riots, and the OJ Simpson case, and why my classmate responded that way when we heard the verdict. In hopes of changing the world, I went to law school to learn how to fight the good fight. Unfortunately, learning about the law -- especially criminal law -- made me realize many of the theories I learned did not hold up in reality. I found that what people call the criminal justice system, isn't really a system at all. Systemic change cannot happen when there is no system to change. At best, the US has thousands of individual law enforcement agencies, and law enforcement and "corrections" are separated from each other. The big narratives of theorists, the cultural analyses, seem to ignore many of the harsh realities of actual criminals, how they act, who they are, and what they want. The views and experiences of these men (and they are 90%+ men) are not present in academic journal articles or books. After having some of these men as clients, including "sexually violent predators" held in civil commitments in "hospitals" like California State Hospital, Coalinga after a prison sentence (SCOTUS ruled these commitments constitutional in Kansas v Hendricks even if their conditions are untreatable and commit is essentially permeant), I realized that these men are being used for political purposes that do no benefit them. I lost faith in the folks arguing to abolish the police and prisons, yet say absolutely nothing about the treatment of sexually violent predators.

[@Iloveswedes]

@@austinbaumgarten2328 Thank you. It's a complicated issue due to the compounding of injustice, poverty, disparity, increase in population, and time. Criminality becomes arbitrary in a country that does not hold people equally accountable for the same crimes. There many examples of which you speak. The closest intersection to our comments is probably what happened in the Stanford rapist trial where the male student raped a girl in an alley behind a dumpster, both supposedly drunk, but witnessed by two men who came forward. His father complained of him not wanting to eat steak and that he shouldn't get jail for a few minutes of "action". I think he got 6 months, being rich, and that reduced 3, somehow. He was an athlete at Stanford, and his father and the judge on the case were alumni. Somehow, I bet the case was shopped, they picked their judge, and the judge not considering the media attention it would attract to favoritism and corruption on such a serious crime, subsequently retired. Unfortunately, in this system, no matter how diverse or decentralized agencies are, they follow the same practices, mainly because of the culture where they were developed. I can understand the frustration of dealing with them to the point of abolition and dissolving them, mostly because they will not correct or self-correct how they act. They become more of a problem than criminals when the state sponsors and reinforces the corruption. However, it doesn't take responsibilities out ofvthe hands of people to act differently. Yes, the system is racist and corrupt, and we should not follow the path it sets for us, more often than not. People can be harmed by police without warranting it for certain. I don't think closing all jails or ending cops deals with it correctly. Redirect funds from overmilitarized police forces for certain. I think people supporting lower taxes, pushing for less government workers probably adds to the chaos. Police do not solve all problems, they solve very few, but tend to have the highest priority in local budgets. Making sure that people have a gainful wage and education for what is needed to run a household and live well is most important. Policies and practices directed at destroying environments, family, and community shows the priority of government, unfortunately. With similar drug use rates among races, it is easy to see why distrust is high on enforcement aside from violence. It is easy to see why others can save and do well, and you have to move out to where they are, so that you are less likely to be accosted by police or those in high poverty, for that matter. I don't defend violent criminals, I think they are the most deserving of jail, but I think a sick society brews such beings. What are our actual values vs. professed values? We should also jail the most powerfully rich and corrupt, because they create and maintain such conditions to keep themselves rich. I speak of pols and those who do business behind closed doors that doom communities to mediocrity out of avarice, caprice, malice, or a combination of the three. The nation leaves much to be desired, and many of its largest problems stem from its racist past. Economy, health & healthcare, food access, water access, environment, housing, incarceration, immigration, political reform, even energy...

[@Iloveswedes]

Did not mean to leave out education, of course.

[@austinbaumgarten2328]

@@Iloveswedes Sorry, but I think I didn't get my point across well enough. You bring up Brock Turner: you see the case as someone privileged, a white, wealthy Stanford athlete evading true justice. You view Judge Persky as corrupt, and sympathetic to Turner based on shared identities. Well, I see the case extremely differently: I see a case with weak evidence, where the prosecutor overcharged, so the changes Turner was found guilty of were not "rape" under California law at the time, despite what the media reporter.. The probation officer requested the light sentence, and the judge approved it. In all respects, this exactly how progressives want crimes punished -- but people don't want a more progressive justice system. They don't want an equally applied more lenient system; instead, they want a justice system that punishes people based on remedying past unequal treatment between different groups of people. Unfortunately, the criminal justice system cannot provide this remedy, because it treats each accused as an individual, and don't really address large systemic problems. That is why I brought up Sexually Violent Predators. Most people do want a more lenient system for those inmates -- who are again serving indefinitely civil commitments after serving their prison sentences. Almost everybody is happy with the current system we have in the case of these criminals. And why? Because they deserve it (at least in most people's eyes). Yet lawyers must represent these people. It felts horrible for personally to do so, but I think that is what is the morally right thing to do. As I've gotten older, I've found that the emotionally satisfaction of hurting the enemies of marginalized groups is not the same thing as helping marginalized people.

[@myfriendisaac]

15:00 Very established, especially now 💯

[@deloresboudreaux2755]

Idealism is always in play, despite “ facts. “

[@tembalani]

I'm sad I missed this version of Armond White.

[@joeb267382]

Exactly. Nowadays he regularly slanders Trayvon Martin and George Floyd while always praising Trump and tweeting about how awesome Marjorie Taylor Greene is.

[@annfrierson6325]

I do enjoyed that… refreshing at least!

[@nadinesmith4397]

I never realized how annoying Charlie could be (and I watched his show back in the day) by cutting off answers to try and guide the narrative the same way the media manipulates what people 'want' to see. Now we have 'alternative facts.'

[@piscesgroovesupreme]

It's crazy how not one lesson was learned when it comes to American media in all the years since this interview. If anything, shit got way worse.

[@TheoTyeku-ju3ne]

It's enlighting to know we still have black, serious women around today. Who doesn't perform for the gallery.

[@ATL1999]

Charlie does not get it at all. At all. 😢

[@Danuta628]

I was in my 30’s when this happened- OJ Simpson was a beloved celebrity athlete- handsome and adored by all. When this happened it was shocking and very very sad - heartbreaking between two ppl who at one time loved each other. Had children together- And to see such a horrible violent crime with then at the time learning about past domestic abuse as well- by OJ. Was simply shocking and horrifying/Never was it about ‘well here’s an opportunity to make it about race and maintaining a white supremacy narrative’. Nobody saw it that way . It was more about shock and awe because of the high profile case. Now the media was a whole different ball of wax - shoving this case down our throats- they seized the opportunity to cash in on an enormous amount of profit for sure ! It was beyond sickening

[@RockyH.]

Sorry I don't, haven't, and will never treat any.....any African American with anything, but respect, co-workership, and my fellow man! I swear it can be done... all you have to do is just mind your own f***ing business! Problem Solved

[@ummebrown377]

👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾💯

[@pondzischeme6430]

It's a difficult conversation people don't have patience for. And unless they're truly empathetic and curious, they'll excuse these conversations as a 'whataboutism.' But this is Murika, nothing happens in a vacuum, ESPECIALLY when race is even remotely related. Every point made by the guests are cemented by reality, but it goes way beyond the surface level analysis people are comfortable with. We are but simple creatures. No extenuating circumstances, cogent scholarly analysis, or valid critiques of the police will ever convince "people" this was deeper than: Black Man Kills White Woman. A person is smart, people are dumb. Salute to Toni tho, one of the greatest Americans of all time.

[@cynthialangley7338]

What seems to go over everyone’s head is that this was a story of misogyny, abuse, violence, and femicide, regardless of skin color. Also favoritism shown toward a male celebrity sports figure, regardless of race. The narrative always seems to leave out the reality that 2 young people were brutally and viciously murdered and the murderer is still walking around free, still posing a risk to society, regardless of race. RIP to the victims and hopefully their families can have some measure of peace as well. I hope that some day this country will acknowledge the immense pain and suffering caused by the many many acts of violence against women of all colors and backgrounds that happen every day and often go unrecognized and unreported.

[@Cornelius_444_]

Welcome to our world 😂✌🏾

[@RedLeo-pf9yo]

I don’t know what the exact number is, but I think like eight women filed cases against Mr. Rose for his improprieties

[@l.w.paradis2108]

25:00 Brodsky knows James Baldwin. Charlie Rose does not.

[@belindafoster-eb5sb]

The OJ situation was tragic and a travesty of justice. I feel for the families who lost their loved ones in such a brutal and violent way. It is nice to hear an intellectual like Toni Morrison lend her view of the case. Charlie was out of his league with the people gathered. He seemed to want to steer the narrative on the conversation, but the panel did not let him.

[@Luigiano]

Charlie chose to be white over being humane

[@peach2671]

Fame can be stolen

[@blissfulbaboon]

.I do not disagree that blacks are discriminated against horribly by the media and everything else but using this case is not a good example of an innocent black man being victimized by the system.

[@joeb267382]

It was the worst case they could have used as an example because there is absolutely no doubt about his guilt. There was no possibility Simpson could be innocent due to the DNA evidence. To make it all about race was simply to ignore the DNA, which is what Toni Morrison was basically doing.

[@Babysuggs-holy]

You’ve completely missed every point that was made if you think that their analysis has anything to do with him as an individual or with his individual guilt or innocence. The analysis is less (if at all) about the Simpson trial and more (if not completely) about the American imagination’s unprecedented obsession with it-and, to a lesser degree, the ways certain sociological illusions depend upon the mainstream presumption of his guilt

[@Smarterthanyew]

​@@Babysuggs-holythank god someone intelligent showed up

[@d10scollections]

I don't think that was the point, she made her point on why in min. 2:10 - 3:00

[@todd6900]

Your username is so, so suitable

[@curtwithac9343]

P

[@klieglamp]

Smart lady . . . but, ultimately, a rationale that does not carry.

[@mareerogers364]

I was not a sports fan or a fan of OJ. I didn't watch the trial or the movie. I have my thoughts as to killed two people. O.J. was the America's # 1 Jock. Today, Kevin Hart is white America's #1 clown. He better not mess up😂😂

[@wendyfitzgerald9179]

Admittedly I didn't watch the OJ trial but to me, then and now, it seems down right ridiculous, naive, to convict or acquit someone of a heinous crime based solely upon "if the glove don't fit, you must acquit". That was the dumbest bar to set.What the hell was that!! All that aside, the topic of discussion about POC being judged based on their ethnicity and of being disproportionately victimized, brutalized, in this case by White society. I'm not certain that it is as simple as racist. I think it is more about class and its perceived superiority or inferiority, which we know is a completely false ideal. It boils down to fear and hate. So so very sad. Thanks to the panel for their intelligent intercourse and to Toni Morrison (RIP) for her many novels, and her very prolific and considered expressions she has penned for us all these years.

[@Iloveswedes]

In America, race is tied to class. Even if you are rich and black, they assume you to be poor initially. If you are dressed nicely, they assume you are the help, or that you stole something if it is "too nice" for you. That isn't class, that's race. And if you go to a nice college, must've been affirmative action. If you have a good job, DEI or affirmative action "diversity" hire. So, if you're black and doing well, you didn't earn it yourself and don't deserve it, if you're down and out, that's where you belong, it's your own fault, you should try harder, pick yourself up by your own bootstraps that you don't have while legacy admissions put connected whites in the hall of power forever, and have them own land, wealth, and businesses in perpetuity.

[@CandyCodedBasix]

15:13 what he is saying still applies today with Donal Trump, an adversary to the system.

[@berndtherrenvolk1951]

Charlie Rose. Fired for gross sexual harassment a few years later acting righteous. And for Ms. Morrison: When you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

[@todd6900]

Can you expound on what exactly you're trying to say here? How is this relevant to the conversation at hand?

[@BLTKellys]

Toni Morrison was just human, she wasn’t right about everything. This trend to make out black women have all the answers is ridiculous.

[@normLoue]

@@BLTKellys she was wrong about what?

[@Lloyd.Browne]

@@BLTKellysyou make no sense of your comment as to what in particular Toni is demonstrating incorrectly about.

[@BLTKellys]

@@Lloyd.Browne I’m saying black women are being tokenised as perfect human beings who are right about absolutely everything and it’s not fair to them. For instance if a black woman like Toni Morrison chooses to overlook the spousal abuse issue which led to Nicole’s murder simply because Nicole was white and OJ was black, she’s not being completely honest with herself when she claims the fervour people had to see OJ brought to justice was just about racial prejudice. Violence against women is the issue, regardless of race, and not letting a powerful celebrity off the hook simply because he knows how to play the system.

[@amandadaxilxa8212]

I cannot stand this Interviewer Man. I just get a sense of fakeness in his tone, gesture, faux intellectualism.

[@RedLeo-pf9yo]

Exactly

[@RobertStambaugh-l5r]

A precious white woman was murdered by someone . Leave our precious , beautiful white women alone . White women are beautiful .

[@mareerogers364]

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@tonywalton1052]

Tired, tired of this.......