MARKED FOR DEATH - Why can't finishers just be good already?

Once you unlock Marked for Death, it looks like it actually makes finisher gameplay viable and that's REALLY exciting. But is this Helminth ability maybe a little bit too good? Taking a quick look at the synergy that finally made Excalibur into a god again, how to use marked for death, the ways that it might be broken (and yes, this IS ACTUALLY broken/bugged) and probably most importantly - how this mechanic might affect our gameplay moving forward if it were allowed to continue as is.
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[@doodledibob]

I think part of the problems that come up with these discussions is that people don't cleanly define and then consistently use the word "broken". I think it would be better if we distinguish between technical issues and game balance issues by using "bugged" to talk about glitches/bugs/technical problems (e..g double dipping on the same multiplier) and using "broken" to refer to design problems (e.g. the original Kuva Bramma being the best correct primary weapon choice in 99.99% of content).

[@JoeyZero]

Yeah, I agree and I honestly do kind of blame content creators for that one a bit, including myself. "THING IS BROKEN" makes for a much better video than "THING IS GOOD" - it's no wonder that the two have almost become synonymous. I think undoing that shift in language is a really important step in having better conversations with DE and with each other about their intentions for the game.

[@doodledibob]

@@JoeyZero It's a problem that's present in pretty much every discussion with DE about Warframe. The most recent example I can think of is the "new player experience rework" that we got with the release of Deimos. There are big issues with the progression for a new player in the game. Not just the general lack of information (which is an issue that never goes away), but things like essential mods, e.g. Flow, Intensify not being acquirable until you're past Phobos. The only thing that got changed was the daily syndicate standing cap (increased for lower MR players) and the tutorial mission (basic movement, aiming, shooting, ability usage). That's a relatively small part of the new player experience, as most people would say you're still a new player after you finish Vor's Prize. But DE only reworked that very small initial mission and didn't address the progression issues that have been constantly raised for years. The best possible read on that situation is that DE did not understand what people meant when they said "New Player Experience". I do think that since DE sells things like "essential mod packs", they intentionally misunderstood what was meant when people said that the game was not pleasant when starting out as a new player. But we've talked about whether you and I think DE acts in good faith when it comes to nerfs or progression in the past, so I don't think we need to rehash the same arguments here.

[@draganoidept]

Hello Joey! Thanks for the video. Honestly wasn't expecting 2 uploads in a row like this.

[@JoeyZero]

Me neither tbh

[@ThirstysURL]

@@JoeyZero messed up your upload queue!

[@Thaylien]

Slow applause. As usual, video's clean, subject is fun, and I'm glad that the update got you some fun things to do ^^

[@JoeyZero]

Thanks birb. Glad you enjoyed it

[@danielnolan8848]

A 100x multiplier for an AOE abilities that already does over a million damage seems like a problem, though we will see where the damage of abilities as a whole lie. Honestly if the hemalith system isn't an appreciable power increase, it will quickly become a dead system given the resource sink it requires

[@JoeyZero]

A streamer I watch recently brought the idea of "degrees of overkill" to my attention, and I think that the majority of helminth interactions fit into that. If an enemy has one million health, does it matter whether you're doing one million or one hundred million damage? Does shaving one or two seconds off of mission run time matter in a game where procedural map generation can make up for WAYYYY more variance than that in between missions? Everybody plays this game for different reasons, so honestly the answers to those questions are different for different people. I think that such a wide array of preferences can be difficult to respect - not impossible, but difficult for sure.

[@danielnolan8848]

@@JoeyZero if I were to make a case for overkill, it would be that it allows versatility to how you build, if you achieve enough damage to reach enemy soft health caps then you can fit in utility or quality of life mods that comprise a large amount of the unused collection. To counter to that, the problem with overkill is it's pretty unevenly distributed and becomes a problem if DE ever wants to make "difficult" sponges. Counter counter to that is rivens already exist almost solely for over kill at this point, ie if the infinite combo duration glaive was "op" as stat stick yet rivens that do far more damage are left untouched.

[@danielnolan8848]

Also to defend power creep overkill is that it allows under powered builds from players without meta mods to still contribute and participate in "current" content. Though using powercreepe to compensate for the complete and total lack of catchup mechanics is a terrible policy that has gone on for far too long, unfortunately though no alternative is or has been available for years at this point, so I'm hesitant to take the winds from new and progressing players sails at this point

[@Froggsroxx]

Man I miss my covert lethality dagger :(

[@JoeyZero]

sameeeee

[@joefloggg3257]

.....cries in corner

[@Poisen_]

WF Community/KZbinr: *Well versed, well thought out idea.* DE: I'll pretend I didn't see that.

[@novaro7846]

Here's how I feel about this setup: it isn't fun, it's an effective tool for dispatching overly spongy enemies--Steel Path--that would otherwise only be killable by specified means, or a "meta" if you will. This setup is also really viable in a solo context, meaning it won't be ruining anyone else's enjoyment of the game unlike certain other vanilla setups, i.e. Saryn nuking, Nidus bunching a ton of enemies together, etc, and I think that's honestly far more important than any game balancing.

[@prateekkarn9277]

I mean, there are so many metas in warframe but it really depends on which meta is most popular. Which is what I hate wf community for. You need to take the 'killsquad' of saryn/volt, some buff like rhino (who tf even considers Octavia buff smh) Trinity because zenurik is stupid, and a speedva because there isn't enough spice. Ofc other frames exist but since when was warframe about having fun and using other metas that are slightly less meta than the most popular ones. Sincerely, Annoyed mag main

[@Iistener]

The Enemy cap idea that other people have said is pretty good. it'd still be a buff to finishers as a whole and it takes a pretty sizeable investment to opt into that sort of playstyle. Imo that's a good trade off, I've always liked finishers too, but damn in most cases it's not as good as just spamming e or using an ability.

[@maartenportegijs5717]

I like this idea as well!

[@reeseronithemacaroni8946]

I don't think DE will make the interaction useless or do less damage, but rather put a cap on the amount of enemies affected. Right now it can instakill anything within the radius of the ability (in line of sight) but I think DE will take the approach of making to less of a nuke ability and more of a "kill 3 enemies around 1 enemy" type of deal.

[@JoeyZero]

Honestly I'd be okay with this! Those numbers were "enough" to make voodoo trin a beast back in the day, and would probably be pretty satisfied with that.

[@danielnolan8848]

That be a fine nerf if it was caped at like a dozen, be perfect fine then

[@SlabHardcheese]

I vote for killing 2 outright, stripping the armor from healthy AOE area and maybe applying a short fire proc :). I just put Wisp Breach Surge on a Loki ability 4 in place of radial disarm. It's a pretty good stun but my Loki uses low strength so lower damage buff.

[@Seissmo]

It would be really nice for trickery to get a buff. Fully support that.

[@Avossk]

Alright so here's an idea I've had for balancing this thing, what if you just made the range unmoddable at somewhere around 5-10 meters (along with fixing the obvious erroneous damage calculation) BUT have the enemy you cast this ability on automatically get opened to finishers, you this gives most frames who would normally have pretty lackluster damage output like Nyx, Trinity, or Loki access to a strong offensive ability while not having to go the boring route of just using Roar or some other damage boosting power.

[@radiofloyd2359]

Part of me likes that idea, part of me feels like that'll make the ability kinda way more boring? Like I love having to think about synergies to get interesting damage output. I'm less interested in just having everything ready on plater for me to use. Besides, there's plenty of powerful enough abilities that are interesting in the helminth system, such as thermal sunder, or photon repeater (tesla bank augment) that are excellent for just a general offensive ability.

[@Avossk]

Radiofloyd 235 Uhhh Photon Repeater is an augment for Photon Strike, that's not the ability that Vauban donates when subsuming him

[@radiofloyd2359]

@@Avossk omfg I'm so dumb!!! I meant tesla bank, lmfao!

[@МихайлоЛукашевич-н5ф]

It's funny, that technically you can use "marked for death" combo on any warframe. There's a naramon's dash, which open enemies for finishers in a pretty wide area + gains additional finisher damage. Arcane trickery and fury + hammer mellee (like arca titron) and here you are. I tried it on hildrin and stand almost an hour on steel path mot like it's nothing. Also I agree that damage multiplying is broken and needed to be fixed.

[@radiofloyd2359]

I'd say that's a bit op... Like it's a lot of power to be just an inherent part of most kits (most kits obviously have a throwaway ability)...

[@radiofloyd2359]

Although it is a bit mitigated by the fact that you can't use zenurik, which makes getting energy just a little more interesting...

[@macroshaft5517]

diggity damn, double JoZo serving, woo! :P was expecting a video at some point when we talked about this but was not expecting this level of thought essay, nor this soon... gud shet. my thoughts: Truth be told, this kind of "single-target-damage-rewarded--with-aoe-result" effect is the only way finishers will see the light of worthwhile-ness again in Warframe, unless the game goes through yet another radical gameplay restructuring which somehow makes single target damage worth a sandpapery taintchafing fuck, again. The chances of Warframe yet again accidentally gradually powercreeping into becoming an entirely different game, BUT IN REVERSE? They're Astronomia, which is to say they're dead, coffin'd up, and already dancing away. As for Trickery proccing off finisher damage rather than finishers themselves, I feel the former is infinitely better going forwards... so much so, I'd rather they outright nerf the activation chance of Trickery, than limit it to animation-only and try to fix that fuckup by buffing activation chance by their signature Not Enough. If it's finisher damage, there's ways to hook in other mechanics, get some clever buildcraft going, get rewarded for it. Animation-only is so closed and singular an inroad that it will cut most such possibilities off before they're even developed. The general synergy of finisher-to-aoe should stay, and we should get more of it, get some *Bui͢҉l͏̷d͞ ̶̛Dìv̸̨̨ersity̴̛̕* up in dat bitch. once we get that, I almost think Trickery could be left entirely alone, once Marked for Death isn't the "one option or wrong" that they claimed was the problem with the Xoris; then again, invoking the name of Xoris in a convo about possible reasonable balance [DE]cisions just irreparably cursed this entire mechanic...

[@Hayden44163]

If they do nerf it (which like everything else that's enjoyable they will) I just want them to give me 2-3 months to enjoy it before they change it and make it worthless

[@alexmo9299]

I feel you I've been having fun with Ash now having something cool to do.

[@WMan37]

@@morbidenvy Addiction, and no real competition. Name one other game aside from maybe GunZ and a few select Doom mods where you can move like you can move in warframe that is PvE focused and has such an in depth buildcraft system AND gets regular content updates I'll ditch this game in a heartbeat.

[@ixiahj]

I bet Trickery is procing for each instance of enemy hit by MfD. I was never gonna use it on finishers. I was gonna use it with Rift Torrent and Heavy Attacks from a crit melee weapon.

[@RightClickGamers]

I feel like the game has progressed past finishers in their current state. They're cool and well animated, but slow, break the flow of combat and can get you killed. After seeing some of the "finishing moves" in modern games like Sekiro and Ghosts of Tsushima, it makes me wonder if it's a good idea to revamp finishers to be faster or flow with combat in a way that doesn't leave you as vulnerable or feeling slow. The only example I can think of is have the katanas be just a really quick slash to decapitate the enemy and then move on with what you were doing. You still feel cool because of the impact of that, but you're not locked into a long animation. Or maybe finishers could be based on size/health of a target. Full health/Large targets could use the slow but cool finishers, while trash mobs could have fast ones.

[@lorenmax2.013]

"This video is not going to have a whole lot of editing". This is the first of your videos that I watched, and if this is not a lot of editing then I don't know what to expect from the rest...

[@zegtendo724]

Seriously this skill is dam op i just solo the steelpath disruption

[@misamisa5145]

You see the problem is just DE only sees the "nerf" part, and nerfs it with no delicacy and then decides it's done and never touches it for another 2 years or so. Several knockdown mechanics that use blast is still broken and gas status even on max stacks is just worth farts

[@maartenportegijs5717]

When I was still new at the game (back in 2018 I think), Radial blind was definitely my favorite ability. It was like putting the game on pause and watching a cool cutscene! I loved doing those finishers, they felt powerful and cool. But nowadays I almost never use finishers anymore. And that's a shame! DE clearly put a lot of work into the animations, and it feels infinitely more rewarding than a regular melee swing. I'd love to see finishers come back, here are some ideas I have: 1 ) Make finishers faster With +50% attack speed (aka a rank 9 primed fury) you can speed up the finisher animation to a maximum of 33%. Why not go faster? Maybe we could have a mod that increases finisher speed even more, or it could be an aura mod so teammates can join the slaughter! 2 ) Make finishers more rewarding One thing that makes finishers unique is that they have very strong arcanes! They can give you armour, invisibility (though I must admit that arcane trickery needs some work right now, like a better proc chance at the cost of duration) and even life steal! DE could add more rewards (maybe through more accessible means than arcanes) so that players are incentivized to use them every now and then! 3 ) AOE finishers While I do agree that the marked for death-finisher combo is currently broken, and needs a fix, I don't want to throw away the idea just yet. I think the concept of damaging a lot of enemies with just one finisher kill could be made into something interesting and balanced. I'm also completely with you on the misuse of the word ''broken'' by the warframe community, lol. Loved the video, as always!

[@Psycorde]

Assassin's Creed eventually introduced multi-takedowns, and some other similar to it games. It's a lot of work for animators, but damn it would be cool. Finishing off enemies one by one using the same animation is just... nah.

[@Jobulejobies]

Those double stacks of bonus damage sometimes randomly occur on normal finishers as well, I was doing some testing with finishers in preparation for the helminth and found several instances where finishers would randomly do *2 or even *4 damage

[@tonberryking42]

A note about Marked for Death. Only frames that have access to finishers can use in the first place - so Ivara, Excal, Baruuk, Banshee, Ash, Inaros (who honestly needs the help anyways), technically Equinox, technically Loki, technically Gara (via her passive at that), technically Octavia (who has better and faster options anyways), and technically Wisp. Most of these frames also already have better options for what abilities can be put onto them, even among just the Helminth Abilities. Further, unlike pre-nerf Ember from way back when, which just dominated low level missions, you're ACTIVELY competing with other players to do these AoE death circles. In the time it takes to blind/sleep/make vulnerable, mark, and then finish that enemy, your squad has probably dealt with most to all of the enemies. Further, to get this to do 1 for 1 damage, you need exactly 200% strength, and to make use of it, you still need to have some significant range - sure an initial AoE of 10m is a big starting point, but enemies are FREQUENTLY more than 10 meters apart when they're in an unalerted state. So either you're eating this casting cost over and over again, as well as your finisher opening ability, or you're running over extended and other strength mods to get back up to 200% strength. And while that sort of mod loadout is solved, you're still using 3 to 5 mod slots on JUST THIS POWER. Another thing worth noting, is that finishers don't scale. They're just big damage that HOPES to get over the raw health of the enemy. Physical and Elemental Damages do nothing for finishers; only raw damage, combo+ (stealth and weapon class are additive with combo), and weapon rank. Sure, it's true damage, which is unresisted and bypasses armour, but where this power is actually useful - the Steel Path - it will still require you to bring specific weapons and mods to make use of it there, since even grunty enemies might survive a finisher if you're not kitted for it. In conclusion: To do marked for death finishers, enemies need to survive your teammates, your melee weapon is doing nothing except finishers, you're dedicating both your Warframe's build AND you're Melee Slot to it, and it's simply not as fast nand/nor as effective as other options warframes just natively have in their kit - and I'm pretty sure some weapons even out perform marked for death if you do it right. And the frames who can actively use it and don't have better options? All 2 to 3 of them, depending on how pessimistic you are about combo not working with the energy waves from Exalted Blade, need the help to compete with more efficient frames. Side Note: The frames that I marked as "Technically", can only do finishers by virtue of turning invisible before the enemies alert status goes up; Gara and Equinox are exceptions, because the former does an inconsistent blind which opens enemies to finishers, and Equinox's Rest ability doesn't open already alerted enemies to finishers (not to mention that Marked for Death cannot work with Calm & Frenzy due to the latter having a smaller base range).

[@tonberryking42]

I found some of the interaction that's leading to enemies taking more damage then the one you're finishing. It's self-touching with Finisher damage, yes. But also that instance of damage on other enemies is also checking for crits, using the incoming damage as the principle. So if you crit on the thing you're doing a finisher to, for say, 100 (base damage 50, 2x crit multiplier), the other enemies will then also check for a crit: what doesn't crit takes 100 damage, but the enemies that do count that as a crit will take 200 damage. Also yes, it is making Finishing Touch/Radiant Finish/Savage Silence/Fatal Teleport/[Finisher Riven here] multiply itself, since you are doing finisher damage to spawn the radial damage. And further, there's ANOTHER double dipping interaction: If the damage you do is reduced by armour (or health type), that reduced amount is what is applied to other enemies, and it must go through their armour too, meaning the damage is double reduced. This does also mean that if an enemies are weak to the damage type you're doing, it'll double boost that damage type interaction. I still stand by my other post though: the frames who need it most are few, and they really need it, and to make use of Marked for Death, you're changing your build on not only your frame, but also on your weapons as well as what weapons you're actually bringing.

[@maj0ga.]

I really wanted to try this on Inaros' Desiccation and see if it would effect heal returns, but I'm pretty sure the dot will proc MFD before the finisher can even occur :(

[@eddie-booth]

i think there are a couple interesting points that i haven't seen other people make: a) the warframe designers really like the idea of ability combos. There are a number of neat explicit combos in many warframe kits where hitting 2 and then hitting 3 makes a 'mega death field' that does 150 dps in a 7m radius or doubles the range on a line-of-sight limited ability or does something else. Often these combos are super amazing on paper but terrible in practice. Ember is a great example: her kit is designed around using her abilities in sequence to manage a meter that makes some of them do some theoretically cool things, but you usually don't have the energy to use things other than 4. There are also a fairly large number of things that theoretically combo to do huge amounts of damage -- garuda forced slash + mecha set + any large single hit can spread an insane forced slash proc out to an almost significant distance, for example -- but it seems like all of them aren't worth using because of consistency issues or the numbers being laughably low. because of this, i'd like to argue that the interaction between marked for death and finishers is within the spirit of the game's design. Perhaps instead of totally gutting marked for death, a few abilities and ability interactions should be lightly overhauled so that for this level of setup you get enough reward to kill star chart enemies. b) the finisher thing is cool, but it's honestly totally unnecessary -- slap marked for death on chroma or mirage or something and just slap the marked enemy with a heavy attack and you can kill fairly tough fairly high level enemies in the radius with far less setup. This *may* be a problem, but you can also just cast larva and then hit the heavy attack to kill everything in the same radius. I think it certainly will have implications on how marked for death is balanced. c) i think the actual issue that may need to be addressed has nothing to do with the sheer amount of overkill but rather the ability to apply large amounts of damage to a tough thing standing next to a weak thing. You normally can't do finishers on a lich, but if a lich is standing within ~30m of a lancer you can now deal finisher damage through marked for death. In simul, it seems like some amount of damage resistance may be overcome -- juggernaughts normally take a trivial amount of damage, but i can kill them indirectly through marked for death. DE's current 'boss' design revolves around invuln phases broken by mechanics, but if they ever choose to have meaningful boss health bars this sort of interaction would become a problem

[@ThePalrex]

7:28 YOU USED REVIVAL AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I love SMLE and Just A Gent

[@prateekkarn9277]

I love his music taste (I.e he has the same as mine)

[@Sharicite]

Top notch editing as always joey

[@TheFighterjock1]

I had an idea watching this. Why not allow for finisher attacks to be switched out for heavy attacks, utilizing the combo multiplier. This could be done either in mission, mod selection or by weapon type. This would allow for players with a playstyle that fits more into the assassin, single target playstyle to have easier access to their style. Finishers could then be more effectively modded for and may even be done in the air. As for boss fights, the norm now is to have multiple stages so one shotting a boss is unable to happen, but finishers can be used on them still for effective damage. Thoughts?

[@radiofloyd2359]

Yeah, I agree! It seems to me like this is about as powerful as, say, octavia or like a stronger photon repeater vauban. Since those abilities are not only actually intentional, but they're also generally more cost efficient, I think keeping this power with minor tweaks (just making it not double dip, basically) would make it relevant and balanced, compared to the rest of power in the game. I really hope DE decides to keep it as is.

[@analogicparadox]

I agree that a simple fix to the damage issue would make this fun and useful, without the need for any tuning.

[@ashermaese4481]

Wow thank you for putting together an amazing video. You have passion for the game and it shows. Keep it up please

[@kickskii]

I remember stealth gas headshots with banes using the snipertron and a -puncture riven ah good times

[@Cantaloupe_Connoiseur]

There's also a new less broken glitch with revenant where you can use you weapons while in his 4th ability

[@tarfeef101]

Man I'm hoping this stays as something useful. I've rued the inconsistency of trickery for years now. They probably don't want any instance of finisher damage that kills something to be triggering it, but perhaps this'll trigger a buff for it instead. As for the actual ability and how it works, yeah, fixing the bug makes sense. But if you're making an intensive build and playstyle like this, I think you SHOULD be able to use finishers viably. And needing 1 per enemy is not viable in a horde shooter. So I do hope they more or less keep the ability the same, it does honestly seem pretty fair given the investment needed, and the circumstances you gotta set up to execute it effectively. Really cool vid btw, I've missed your content (not a compatible lifestyle for stream-watching, sadly). Nice to see you uploading a little more again. Hope it keeps up.

[@ixiahj]

Limbo stops the greedy squadmate from setting up the combo. The AoE also goes through the rift.

[@Psycorde]

Marked for Death lists a damage multiplier, but are you sure it's actually applied to the marked enemy and not explosion specifically? Could be that. Referring to supposed double-dipping you mentioned.

[@alicewest6362]

What do you think about how this affects the gameplay of single fastest weapons like bows? Because it seems like it might make a lot if those weapons useful as well.

[@JoeyZero]

That's a really interesting question! I could do with some love for the non-explosive bows! I think the biggest consideration would be what to run instead of multishot (since it's only the first instance of damage that is spread, you'd lose quite a bit of damage on the affected targets compared to running something else there). There isn't a lot of build craft out there that truly represents single shot, single target, highest theoretical damage since that's generally not well suited for what the rest of the game is. Now I've gotta play around with it. What a fun idea.

[@alicewest6362]

Joey Zero thank you so much for the response! I’ve been trying to get a Daikyu multi target build going for years (almost had something before they nerfed gas) and I’ve had a lot of ideas for how they could make those weapons viable but this seems like the best opportunity at the moment. Good point on the multi shot mods. With something like the Daikyu maybe there’s a way to rely on headshot multipliers and raw damage. I hope they make the marked target impervious to friendly fire for a short duration of time. If they nerf the ability I think that’s something they should consider to keep it usable.

[@timsmith1426]

Liked/Subbed. Simple, yet still filled with theory. Informative and enjoyable. Thanks for your time and effort! :)

[@riffska]

Discovered your channel by accident and boy, Why didn't I discover your stuff earlier :') Dropped a sub, and I love your editing. Super clean.

[@loganholder3948]

Haven't tried it yet, but you should use MfD without something that sets up enemies for finishers in an AoE. Theoretically it should get rid of the double dipping, and show that even a low strength build will still more than work. So it really doesn't matter if it double dips, as MfD is only competitive in the SP. The interaction with Trickory is a surprise, but a good one that should stay.

[@Psycorde]

Mmm... The thing about Arcane Trickery... What if enemies killed by the explosion also count as killed by melee finisher? That would be crazy, but it would also explain its proc rate.

[@imObvioslycrazy]

Concerning Arcane Trickery, I'd like to call back to Critical Invisibility Naramon. We wouldn't see Trickery buffed to the point of 30-50%, because that would basically bring back that gameplay. And yes, the argument is, "so what? We have Bloodrush Weeping Wounds Loki with Helminth now, so times have changed", but the point still stands that there is precedent. If I were to imagine a good level of finishers to proc, I would say 4, maybe 5. Currently, it stands at 6-7 expected, but we know that that isn't exactly what statistics dictates. On the other hand,, I do have a Savage Trickery Ultimatum Banshee. Ultimatum is the more useful and consistent, which also means it can cannabolize Trickery at most levels, but gives me that decent in-between to build Trickery at Steel Path/Mot levels.

[@UnfortunateWatcher]

I honestly feel like it’s fine as it is. But then again, I also thought that the Bramma was fine and they still nerfed it.

[@spaz_taz4910]

poor bramma, how does anyone use that with SO MANY ammo issues.

[@josequiles7430]

@@spaz_taz4910 carrier plus ammo mutation, you can shoot frequently and don't rum out of ammo. Also, the Bramma was absolutely not fine. It was the best explosive weapon by far, right now it's still strong but the other options are competitive.

[@spaz_taz4910]

@@josequiles7430 i do not like being forced to use certain things in a loadout just to make a weapon work. and im aware of the power of the bramma and i didnt say it wasn't strong im just not a fan of giving it TINY ammo capacity AND reduced pickups.

[@josequiles7430]

@@spaz_taz4910 yeah it requieres investment. Powerful options should requiere building around them in order to extract their potential. It wouldn't make sense to be able to slap the best explosive weapon into every random build. Because then the other options with more usability would be irrelevant. That was the case before, that's why the nerfed it. Now, if you don't want to adjust your loadout, there's alternatives like: the kuva ogris, the kuva tonkor, primary tombfinger, the lenz etc.

[@CRWM987]

I remember stealth gas procs.

[@alial-kateeb5267]

I think the true damage is not only triggering trickery but might also triggering another finisher multiplier on other enemies On the other hand no matter how many they nerf the damage we can pretty much get infinite damage But other stuff Btw this works in a very similar way to mecha set but make aoe damage rather than status (HM snipers on mecha set) and both double dips eith viral if viral is already procced on the surrounding enemies so yea..

[@Clit_Yeastwood]

First up it is very niche, you need so much setup and specific equiment to actually do this like this, the amount of investment needed through specific mods, having adequate range, strength, ability synergy and weapon synergy just to get the insane damage numbers on this. Listen I don’t care that the damage is broken on aoe and gets a fix, as long as my damage dealt in aoe is enough to clear out that area, so remain functionally the same. I’ve been having an absolute blast with Excal and Ivara which I normally rarely play with this and it’s great fun. Fix what’s broken as long as it isn’t impacting on my experience and having fun. Solo play has never felt better. Being sneaky beaki in steel path is actually a viable strat with finisher frames so I don’t have to play meta frames to avoid being kicked from squads or just have a fun solo experience cause normally Warframe sucks playing solo.

[@thepotatogod_-]

Gotta love Hysteria :3

[@AnymMusic]

DE: what niche? no, big numbers = not niche. time to nerf into the ground and towards the core of the fcking earth!

[@beejaytea5964]

Make Marked for Death not transfer the Finisher damage type, so we are encouraged to target the biggest enemy in a crowd, and have it wipe out surrounding fodder? Make it so enemies not killed are themselves opened to finishers?

[@cenation7mjc]

If this interaction is nerfed tricker should be at least 40%

[@logono9414]

WHAT how come no one told me mark for death was a finishers good again that was my favorite thing when covertly lethality was still a thing that’s it I’ve been procrastinating on it I’m going to unlock Mark for death I don’t care if it’s Nerf I just wanna feel good doing finishers again

[@spaz_taz4910]

VERY simple fix, you can still do everything with marked for death that you can right now, BUT you can only deal as damage equal to the damage needed to kill the enemy. example you do the marked for death combo on a butcher lvl 100 and he is surrounded by lancers, when you kill the butcher those lancers take damage equal to the butchers effective hp, it wont kill the entire room like that. example 2 say you do the same thing to a heavy gunner in a room of lancers it will deal damage equal to the gunners effective hp killing anything in line of sight with less hp than the gunner had. basically removing the overkill damage beyond what is needed to kill the initial target, this would allow it to still nuke a room but you would have to choose your target carefully. but now that i have pointed out a good solution DE wont in a million years consider it.

[@EsperSpirit]

Well, they saw your video, took all the bug analysis, fixed them and then, of course, still added several unnecessary hard nerfs on top. So much for more intelligent discussion (I should add that I really like the video and your points are spot on but you cannot put DE and intelligent in the same sentence)

[@kosigisa]

I think de hates invisibility since narramon so trickery will likely get an additional nerf

[@alessandrovillani837]

RIP

[@spookmineer]

People will be using this for 7 months, when DE announces a change to the mechanic, making it obsolete.

[@ZephrusPrime]

Joey it will get nerfed hard as long as videos like this are made. If DE gets wind of something "broken" they will indeed Hot fix the shit out of it.

[@JoeyZero]

Yeah, that's a part of why I wasn't going to make this video eventually. But I saw the "THIS IS SO GOOD" videos making the rounds from other youtubers and wanted to shift the tone of that conversation before it gets too far. If they're going to nerf it anyway and people are already going to be having that conversation, we might as well have that conversation better. "THIS IS GOOD BUT DE ALWAYS NERFS THE GOOD THINGS" is not constructive. "WHY does DE nerf the good things?" is constructive.

[@deadlyrobot5179]

I've already put Marked for Death on a bunch of my frames. fuck me.

[@nashprime]

Its going to get hit with like a cooldown or something.

[@djshachdem5712]

Hey this ability is made for heavy attacks when d.e nerf it just use heavy you will hit damage cap and to break tha game use chroma and heavy attacks and that is how you use it with other players

[@tonberryking42]

And a third comment: It appears that Marked for Death demands line of sight. So between all the work you have to do to make it work, as well having to compete with allies, is it really too much that it makes some modes of solo gameplay more efficient? I mean, Kuva Nukor is more efficient than MfD, even if you pretend that MfD doesn't need set-up and no competition.

[@ivailopopov1414]

"delicate touch" ...yeeeeea...no

[@Ember292]

Grataka

[@GTurner2K]

Finisher gameplay would be useful if you could just spend you 1× combo and finish enemies

[@tio_ultronloko_10]

For me its ok because if you can make 5days run with ivara why not explode every one

[@haukilex]

Marked for Death shouldn't be nerfed but fixed. I can only see Limited uses for it like atlas one punch withMarked for Death but , limiting it EVEN MORE will make it just another non option IMO. What i mean with "non option" is that There is so much in this game players dont tuch sins it's "less than good". If you have the option to use "Insert your favorit kitgun here" or use the twin grakatas, 9/10 players will say "ok the graks are fun. But my kitgun kan do stupid fun dmg". Yes we all like to dust of the mighty grakatas every now and again and take them for a spin. But in the end players will always go for the better option. (wich is the mighty grakatas as we all know from our lord and savior clem)

[@Hopeofhell]

If you can kill a room of mobs with one or two button press's from other things, why not finishers. Still dont care what they do funamentally as im not playing warframe nor will again, But DE shouldnt kill this.... even tho they most likey will because who else hates fun am i right.

[@prateekkarn9277]

Honestly Joey, who cares if it gets fixed. Just slap on a Vulcan blitz and it would be hilarious if all the enemies exploded causing a chain reaction. Even better, molecular prime them. Excal is a nuke?

[@JoeyZero]

I've seen this, and tbh I love the idea.

[@_12k70]

I've been working for quite some time now on a ... Erm...""""quite big"""" thread, to post, about the "power-fantasy aspect of the game" and the importance of balance...and everthing else... -LOOK, I HAVE A LOT OF FREE TIME, THAT THING IS ALREADY 10 PAGES LONG, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP NOW- But, with the heart of Deimos update I needed to step back and wait for D.E to make their moves about balance and resource economy, and new mechanics and everthing for me to use to refine my own ideas around the game and my suggestions Said that, Helminth is..."interesting", it has a way less dept than some people make it seems to have, it's a cool mechanic but...eh, could've been better Now, for "Marked for Death" I think the most reasonable nerf would be around range, reduce the base range to be very more "close enemies" focused, the finisher sinergy is great, it's fine, the amount of enemies that can just be deleted that is the problem, in our current situation of the game, the wise decision would be making this ability better when enemies can be grouped up, so you can't just go around banishing entire rooms to the shadow realm, you gotta at least make sure there's enought enemies for the cast to be worth it

[@radiofloyd2359]

I disagree. The range being displayed here (which I assume is the absolute highest range possible) is actually just fine, when compared to other abilities, such as photon repeater, that do similar things. I think in this case it literally just is fixing the double dip

[@Mr_Maikels]

As this is a solo gameplay mechanic, don’t change it. It’s already slow, energy demanding and has very limited range. If they would lower the damage output, you’ll only be alerting the other enemies and becomes useless.

[@TheDoomsdayzoner]

No. It doesn't deserce a nerf, untill we get our Covert Lethality back. Or some other buffs to finisher damage. Trust me, they will only nerf the damage and the Trickery. They won't do any "real" fixes. Not anymore.

[@ZRo69]

I trie to watch the video but the music was making me deaf so yeah...

[@asinideful]

I think the only thing that would need a fix is the double dipping unless there was something in your build that intentionally does it. This is a great solo build stat. DE: Solo? Kill it

[@asinideful]

@@morbidenvy Veriaty, pushing for longer survival runs, speed running levels. You know the stuff that used to be really fun when there keys instead of relics.

[@asinideful]

@@morbidenvy true but variety, the game has been out for 7 years and if you want a game to last that long you want there to be as much variety as possible to prevent burn out like what happened to me.

[@asinideful]

@@morbidenvy Well after 7 years I am definitely at that "dev hacks" like stage. I got virtually everything before the plains of Edilon and the only thing that keeps me coming back, other than updates, is trying new builds and experimenting when I am bored.

[@asinideful]

@@morbidenvy Ya so again for veriaty, you can only get this build if you have all the required components. Also if you know how it works than you know it will only work effectively in solo, unless your teammates just wanna watch, because to get all those buff and skills like invisibility has requirements that your teammates will most likely interrupt. Having a build like this is not at all the best and is neesh because it is so specific. Playing a certain objective or even with a team will put you at a disadvantage with this build.

[@TempestRequiem0]

You're running out of oxygen at only 20 min because despite its damage its KPS is still low being outclassed by just regular melee spam. It's not op, and like you said only realistically doable in solo which is already a worse way to play in terms of resource gain. I say leave it as is and when actual problematic builds show up (ala synoid mirage) then do some light tuning without killing it.

[@GTurner2K]

Useful dosen't equal fun. The numbers are lik wwooow but in the grand scheme of things what's your doing looks boring

[@villecor8765]

Not gonna lie that music and sound fx are really annoying

[@MrBiosh0ck]

Just saw the update go live. They nerfed it out of existence. Worse than decoy now. Great to see they care and listen to their long time content creators (sarcasm) feels bad bro.

[@chrisjack4278]

This is not even a good so why tell de to remove it are you a noob or just jealous that new players will do damage as well