Marvin and Sakashima: How they ACTUALLY work... - MTG Rules - Duskmourn

Recently a popular MTG KZbinr said that Marvin, Murderous Mimic breaks the game and causes a rules problem that is apparently not solved yet and there isn’t a definitive answer yet, but I’m here to break it to you that Marvin does not break the game, there is no rules problem and yes, there is a definitive answer here. Let me explain.
Thanks for watching!
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[@attackoncardboard]

SMALL CORRECTION: I was under the impression Sakashima would get their 'bounce' ability during Layer 6 - Adding and Removing abilities, which is why I didn't believe Marvin would get a copy of that ability. This is *incorrect* . Sakashima gets their 'bounce' ability during Layer 1 - Copy effects. In which case, Marvin *would* have a copy of Sakashima's 'bounce' ability (so then Sakashima would have *two* instances of their bounce ability). 707.9a Some copy effects cause the copy to gain an ability as part of the copying process. This ability becomes part of the copiable values for the copy, along with any other abilities that were copied. Also to the people asking why I was using Llanowar Elves as the example, as it doesn't really 'do' anything here, it was the easiest and simplest activated ability I could think of to try and make the explanation a bit clearer.

[@jefferyepps6728]

So if I understand you tap all three for mana and you would still only have 3 mana. Gaining an additional tap add mana doesn't mean you add an additional when you tap them correct?

[@BlakeBelladonnaTucAndRoll]

​@@jefferyepps6728 Correct as you are on each instance only able to pay the cost (T:G) once.

[@attackoncardboard]

@@jefferyepps6728 That's correct.

[@harrysmith4100]

So just as a point, even if lets say this was not the case and there was a world we had sakashima gaining an effect on layer 6 and it wasnt from the continuous effect from Marvin, lets say using retraction helix targetting sakashima (or as you originally thought Sakashima gaining the ability to bounce). Then you actually get a dependancy forming between the ability granting effect which gives sakashima the retraction helix effect and Marvins ability, so we would always give Sakashima the retraction helix ability and then marvin would gain it and then we would give sakashima all activated abilities from Marvin (assuming that sakashima entered the battlefield after marvin and so timestamps for other things works). This doesnt seem all that important for most abilities, however there are probably some shinaigans you can do with psychic paper/stickers, quicksilver elemental, and an effect like Blade of Shared Souls.

[@kintsuki99]

@@harrysmith4100 In the case were you are giving some new hability to Sakashima, as in your example, it would only result in Sakashima having 2 instances of that hability and Marvin having one such instance. When the layer program is run it resets all previous states and apply them again. In your example it would mean that when you give Sakashima the ability with retraction helix the layer program would run giving sakashima it`s own ability and the helix ability and when it get to layer 6 Marvin would get sakashima's 2 abilities then sakashima would gain marvin copies of it's abilities.

[@33elk]

If only there was a rule irl that stopped ME from forming a dependency loop. 😢

[@attackoncardboard]

"When you have mixed feelings about something and you're stuck in a dependency loop, apply them in Timestamp order. " 😂

[@l0lan00b3]

Layers is such a crazy logic hiding in the background you wouldn’t realize while just playing the game.

[@attackoncardboard]

Layers literally impact every single game, unless of course you're only playing with Vanilla creatures and no buff/debuff spells. That's why it's my mission to dispell the "difficulty" around them 🙂

[@brendans1983]

New player: Man, this The Stack thing can get pretty full on. But I think I'm slowly wrapping my head around triggers and priority! I remember when I thought all this stuff was hard! Veteran: Mate, The Stack and Priority are merely henchman. There's this guy, Tony '7-Layers', that pulls all the levers. Rumor has it he sits on a throne made of artist-proof Humility's.'

[@RadicalPrion]

@@brendans1983 And Tony '7-Layers' doesn't even wear underwear - instead, he wears Dependencies.

[@Stefouch]

Crazier when you think the order of the layers is carefully set, sometimes just because of the existence of a single card.

[@Badmanpuntbaxter]

Okay, I'm not as experienced a player. But I talked to my friend who is a judge, like level 0 or 1, whatever the really low one is, and I said "wouldn't it just be timestamped, Marvin has 1 copy, Sakashima has 2?" And he VEHEMENTLY disagreed. I AM VINDICATED

[@midnalight6419]

My friend watched that misinforrmation video and had to go through the logic of this. But I am thankful that you made a video that makes clearing up the issue so well

[@matthewludivico1714]

Hell Yeah. We love Layers!

[@attackoncardboard]

😋

[@duane6386]

613.2a Layer 1a: Copiable effects are applied. This includes copy effects (see rule 707, “Copying Objects”) 707.9a Some copy effects cause the copy to gain an ability as part of the copying process. This ability becomes part of the copiable values for the copy, along with any other abilities that were copied. I’m pretty sure that these rules together mean that Sakashima’s ability is granted to it on layer 1 so Marvin should have it

[@HeavyMetalMouse]

That's probably right. In which case, Marvin gains a copy of the Sakashima ability, and then Sakashima gains a second copy of its own ability. Neat. :)

[@shooberoni]

I belive that would be correct, its the same reasoning as why Kudo, king among bears keeps his P/T moddifing abilities while dress down is on the field due to it also containing a type-modifying abilites which is on a layer above ability removing effects

[@dacomputernerd4096]

This makes sense. Definitely seems like the ability addition is part of the copy here so it makes sense to be one thing

[@attackoncardboard]

You're right. I missed that. I will make a correction now.

[@TheChayxxx]

This would seem to be the most correct interpretation

[@shieldplus]

Thank you for this clear and thorough explanation of this interaction! (You'll be happy to know this is the top result for a Google search of Duskmourn rules.)

[@Whitewingdevil]

Folk always underestimate the incredible depth to which the rules of MTG have been plumbed, explored and explained, I think it's because 99% of the game can be played without this kind of comprehensive (haha that's a pun, see?) knowledge of the inner workings, it's a testament to both the overall design of the game being able to handle these kinds of corner cases, as well as the skill in designing the sets themselves to not normally require this depth of rules explanation.

[@attackoncardboard]

The fact there's over 26k unique cards and you can take any combination of them to any Seasoned Judged and they'll both come to the same answer is a testament to this.

[@Urathamax]

Nice explanation! I think the sum-up sentence is something like "when a dependency loop forms, f*** that s***", which is actually really good. A recent rules thing that came up for me was on the card Come Back Wrong (from this set), where I found out that moving the Commander from [a zone] back to the command zone is a state based action that can only happen when you have priority. I don't know how, but I'm sure somebody must have broken this before now 🤔

[@attackoncardboard]

Magic has a funny relationships with infinite loops, sometimes they draw the game and that's that. Sometimes the rules say, ok, you've shown your loop, now make a different choice (Amalia + Wildgrowth) and in the case of Layers, the rules are like, Nope. Not dealing with that. Shut it down. 😂

[@seandun7083]

So a small nitpick is that state based actions happen right before you put triggers on the stack, which is right before someone gets priority, but otherwise yeah. It used to be a replacement effect, but that stopped people from getting dies triggers which was obviously pretty disappointing for anyone who's Commander had one. Yeah, the answer to dependency loops is to not use dependency loops.

[@reuvan16]

Fun fact, Marvin and sakashima entering at the same time means sakashima can’t become a copy of Marvin. So you don’t really have to worry about choosing time stamp order in that situation

[@attackoncardboard]

Anytime I mention timestamps in a video, someone *always* comments, "What about if they enter at the same time" 😂

[@Reldane]

techniacally not impossible: you could have a Marvin in play, then put a second Marvin and Sakashima the Impostor are being put play at the same time, prior to entering Sakashima becomes a copy of the first Marvin, and then finally choose to keep the second Marvin as the legendary rule kicks in. Both the Marvin in play and the Sakashima would have entered at the same time.

[@reuvan16]

@@Reldane I mean sure, most things can be done if you add more variables.

[@damedus]

Dont you choose order of placement when multiple things enter the stack so even if they do enter at same time they have different time stamps? ​@@Reldane

[@kumesana]

@@damedus If what you do uses the stack, sure. For example when you cast the creatures. But with an effect like "return all creatures from your graveyard to the battlefield" they go from graveyard to battlefield as simultaneous events and without going through another zone and notably not the stack. In that case, you choose a different timestamp for each (but that has to be after all previous events and before all subsequent events. In other words you choose the relative timestamp order).

[@alexandreviana4461]

I must say, magic is a crazy difficult game to understand.... Sometimes I have to watch this videos 3x to comprehend what is going on. Love your videos!

[@theunease5541]

There was an explanation for how this works in the reddit spoiler for this card. Took a little while for someone to answer with real rules so it is a bit deep in there, but it is in there. The answer to this question like 12 hours after the card was spoiled.

[@attackoncardboard]

Also Experiment Kraj answered this over a decade ago 😂

[@theunease5541]

@@attackoncardboard oh cool, I was wondering what other examples of it there might be. Good vid BTW.

[@levioverturf9435]

Actually wondering why Marvin didn't end up with the sakashima ability to be returned to hand, is that just how the layers would break down? He gains the ability after Marvin has already checked and that's why he didn't get it?

[@quincyking010]

Ya I think that is just a misrepresentation in the video. The Marvin would actually have the 4 mana return to hand and the tap effect. I think he glossed over that since it wasn't what the "problem" was about. Technically the way it actually works is every new instance of an ability is checked to see if it causes this loop. If it does it defaults to the first marven getting one instance and the second getting 2 and each ability is set as a pyramid with the origin of the ability being top then it goes by the timestamp so for sakashima he would be at the top and thus removed from the timestamp

[@attackoncardboard]

I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.

[@levioverturf9435]

@attackoncardboard I feel very odd having noticed a rules error in your video having personally, very little knowledge of the 600+ pages of rules. Your videos work

[@edgarmarques97]

So in that case, Sakashima would also have two instances of that ability right?

[@jtcaban]

Sakashima's ability targets Sakashima by name.

[@steveheist6426]

Obviously Psychic Paper is more of a "real card", but you could in theory get around the name issue with name stickers, also.

[@randommaster06]

I really appreciate all the work you put into these videos. It's really cool that a game as complex as Magic has readily available answers to rules questions. Some other TCGs I play (I'm looking at you, Yugioh) just give you a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ when you need to know how cards interact. It's very frustrating to worry about your cards interacting the same way from event to event.

[@attackoncardboard]

Thank you for taking the time to comment! Really appreciate your kind words :)

[@randommaster06]

@@attackoncardboard :)

[@Scarveilix]

Sorry if this has already been commented but according the mtg judge chat, Marvin would have sakashimas bounce ability since it’s gained in lair 1.

[@attackoncardboard]

I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.

[@Scarveilix]

@@attackoncardboard thank you for acknowledging it! I just saw your pinned comment. I asked the same thing in the judge chat after I saw the other creators video and I originally had the same thought process as you. The actual funny thing here is that since sakashima gets the ability in lair 1, and we assume the sakashima has the later timestamp, that means it will actually get its own bounce ability again from Marvin.

[@attackoncardboard]

@@Scarveilix I do try to be as thorough as possible with these videos, I've been working and researching this script all week, and this key piece of rules text clearly slipped passed me. Thankfully the vast majority and the main point of this video is still correct, so I believe a pinned correction and replying to comments should suffice here :) And yes! That's right too!

[@Havok91]

I never thought of Kraaj as an example of Marvin's ability. I'd thought it was entirely new.

[@thenamedoesnotmatter]

Thank you. I appreciate your correction and good research.

[@camfunme]

I feel like they need to hand out a summary card, or put it into the prerelease booklet, of the layers orders/application at every prerelease. Then over time everyone will become more comfortable understanding the layers through osmosis. e.g. like what they've done for mana curve.

[@Panquernic]

Sorry but this is an awful idea. Players have to learn enough things to even consider layers, that’s why judges or googling are for.

[@KerriWise23]

Season of the Witch & Silent Arbiter from what I have seen. The creatures that get destroyed from Season of the Witch are determined by the judge. Please make a video about this interaction.

[@johngalt200]

Oh this one is easy. Silent Arbiter doesn't stop which creatures are able to attack, it just limits how many creatures you can attack with. Assuming you have 4 creatures that could normally attack (no summoning sickness, no defender, etc.) you pick one to attack and the other three are destroyed.

[@attackoncardboard]

@JudgingFTW has an excellent video on this. It's DDR#571

[@TeamKatastrophe]

"Could have attacked" means that they don't suffer summoning sickness, or have haste. Siren's Call works the same. Anything that doesn't have summoning sickness, but did not attack for whatever reason, dies. Very fitting in those deep sea decks that tap down creatures or disable attackers.

[@GetCommanded]

Attack on Cards doing the lords work dispelling the mysteries of Layers... and we love him for it! - James

[@sushimahjongfc]

Ty, I was discussing about this for a long day! Clear answer. 🙏🙏

[@micboyyaboy2578]

EDIT: I didn't see the pinned comment... whoops lol 😅 Fun fact: Sakashima's ability-giving effect is actually not applied in layer 6, as it is a copying exception. As such, it's applied in layer 1 (the copy layer), according to rule 707.9a! This not only means that the Marvin will actually have an instance of Sakashima's ability and that Sakashima will have two instances, it also means that you don't have to play another creature with an activated ability to see this interaction play out!

[@attackoncardboard]

Yeah, that was my mistake 😅 was so zoned in on the abilities side of things, I didn't double check the copy rules 🤦

[@homunculus265]

at 7:13 would the original Marvin not also have Sakashima's bounce ability?

[@l0lan00b3]

Idk the card is named in the ability. If Marvin activated it it would then just bounce the sakashima?

[@jacobbrown9894]

@@l0lan00b3 Not how it works. Any use of a cardname in text actually means "This card" and auto updates if the card gets new names. The only exception is on cards that say "cards/creatures/whathaveyou named cardname"

[@ocirMZ]

Sakashima doesn't have the bounce ability innately. It grants it to itself in the same layer as Marvin gains activated abilities. Therefore the if Marvin has the earlier timestamp, when Marvin checks for activated abilities, Sakashima doesn't have any yet

[@FM-96]

@@ocirMZ No, Sakashima gives itself the bounce ability in layer 1, as a copy effect. So by the time Marvin copies abilities in layer 6, Sakashima already has that ability.

[@ocirMZ]

@@FM-96 true, the ability granting is still part of the "except" clause and will therefore be added in layer 1

[@ab-mc2nq]

I know it's minor but at 6:40 onwards Sakashima should be a colourless artifact creature - toy (still legendary ofc) that costs {2} and is a 2/2 rather than a 3/1

[@attackoncardboard]

By that point I was very tired of editing and couldnt be bother with that level of detail 😅

[@EastWindCommunity1973]

You gotta be in the $100/month tier to get that level of editing.

[@krimhorn]

I'm gonna take a stab at this before watching fully. Ability adding occurs in Layer 6 so when the layers checks get there both cards look at all other cards with activated abilities FIRST. Neither Marvin nor Sakashima have an activated ability at this point so they don't see anything. Then, after all activated abilities have been accounted for, they gain all of those abilities (and Sakashima gains its return to hand ability at this point so Marvin doesn't see that either) and we move on to Layer 7. Layers don't recursively check within a layer to see if changes have occurred, they only check top-down once. So the next time state-based actions would occur and the layers need to be re-evaluated for changes we start at the top and work down.

[@krimhorn]

Close, but I forgot about Timestamps (and, technically, dependencies but that didn't actually apply)

[@attackoncardboard]

Also Layers don't wait for State based actions. They're applied instantly and constantly 🙂 Good effort though 👏

[@Nilmur2]

interestingly because sakashima the imposter has a different name you could use multiple copies of marvin to have the imposter have X copies of activated abilities as opposed to having 2^x copies of abilites with having multiple marvins with different names. and fun stuff happens when you turn planeswalkers into creatures i suppose

[@Sephiroth517]

@@Nilmur2 even more when you then use Helm of the Host to create a non-legendary token copy of said planeswalker ^^

[@Stefouch]

Really loved to watch your video. I am a former judge that was bad with the IPG, but I was a god with the CR, especially with chapter 613, the Layers system. Very refreshing to watch. I was caught by surprise when you directly went to the jump scare scene and throw at me that dependency loop title. Bruh! Loved it!

[@Duskraven377]

From the intro alone, I knew it had to be layers…

[@attackoncardboard]

"So where did that bring you? Back to me." - Layers

[@justingemma4054]

Thank you so much for explaining this. Your awesome!!!!!

[@ghostkill221]

Anytime someone mentions Layers, my eyes glass over.

[@kydaf4ll3n8]

It's like a scuteswarm trigger except in ability form. At least that's how it's defined. Considering I like to make multiple copies of creatures that benefits my decks

[@ero0senin100]

Ape escape music for the win

[@Cosper79]

Great video!

[@attackoncardboard]

Thanks for taking the time to comment and let me know! 😊 Hope you enjoy the next one!

[@jumpkicking]

Marvin is great for a tonne of decks and I think he's quite broken because he's 2 mana. For perspective, for 2 mana you can get agatha's soul cauldron which everyone knows is a busted card, he's not as versatile and easier to take out, but he can be abused early for an extra copy of competitive activated abilities (arcum daagson specifically comes to mind). Marvin poses a threat, because if left out, you can drop another creature with a powerful tap effect and as players cant respond until you do anything after playing a creature with a powerful tap effect, it can nearly guarantee you get to use said tap ability.

[@Pyroprogramer]

As someone who loves his experiment kraj deck, yea, as you said, not new. just having marvin and kraj would make similar fun things (assuming marvin had the +1/+1. you got to love when someone jumps the gun on something "breaking the game"

[@Rocjhead118]

Could you do a video on cloning? Specifically covering weird interactions like Orvar and Mordenkainen's Polymorph effects.

[@attackoncardboard]

Great idea! I'll add it to my notes. I made a small mistake in this video about the cloning process, so I still have things to learn too :D

[@Rocjhead118]

@@attackoncardboard also I saw a content creator post about using Satya, Aetherflux Genius to copy manlands that have been activated. I'm not sure if the same rules apply to both scenarios due to them occurring on different layers

[@attackoncardboard]

@@Rocjhead118 I dont see any issue here. If Satya, Aetherflux Genius created copies of the manlands, they would just enter as tapped lands (not creatures and not attacking).

[@Rocjhead118]

@@attackoncardboard I wasn't sure if the copies would stay as creatures. Thanks!

[@N0P303]

Nice job explaining the rules. I'm somewhat new to the game and your videos help me getting a better understanding of some wierd interactions? How does Silent arbiter interacts with attacking creatures with myriad? Since myriad has a may clause, I think the ruling will become a "may not"... hehehe

[@seandun7083]

Silent arbiter stops you from declaring more than one creature as an attacker during the declare attackers step. Creatures that later enter already attacking aren't affected by it. They also get around Ghostly Prison and don't trigger "whenever this creature attacks" triggers.

[@markcahalan5698]

It's a bit strange that original Marvin doesn't get the bounce ability from Sakashima. Would that remain true for other abilities granted to Sakashima specifically? If I equipped a Paradise Mantle to it so that it was now able to tap for mana, would Marvin gain that ability?

[@attackoncardboard]

I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.

[@Amazementss]

Oh hey, a dependency loop that I could reasonably see occurring in a real game. Also, remember fellow nerds, layers are nothing compared to replacement effects, linked abilities, and the absolute eldritch nightmare that is combat.

[@seandun7083]

... Panglacial Wurm...

[@danpearman270]

One question - under this interaction (with Marvin first, then Sakashima), does Marvin also gain Sakashima's self-bounce ability? (and would Sakashima then gain a second copy of that ability, or has that dependency already been applied to her once so wouldn't run through again?)

[@bertdog2119]

I think it’s a continuous effect that gives Sakashima his ability. That means if Sakashima gains all his abilities after Marvin then Marvin will not gain the Sakashima bounce to hand ability.

[@danpearman270]

@@bertdog2119 Ah. So if Sakashima enters but doesn't copy anything, it wouldn't gain its own self-bounce ability at all, because that is a part of the copy ability's continuous effect and not a separate ability that the creature just has?

[@bertdog2119]

@@danpearman270 I believe that is true, yes

[@OddMidnight]

​@bertdog2119 Does Sakashima gain 'all' his abilities after Marvin, or does he gain all the abilities that are a consequence of being a copy of Marvin after Marvin? Because the bounce ability seems to be a replacement effect for it's copying ability which happens on layer one.

[@seandun7083]

​@@bertdog2119The difference is that Sakashima gains that particular ability as part of it's copy effect which applies in layer 1. Both the ability stealing effects apply on layer 4, which will be after Sakashima has gained the ability. Marvin will get a copy of it, which Sakashima will see as it applies it's Marvin effect afterwards. 707.9a: Some copy effects cause the copy to gain an ability as part of the copying process. This ability becomes part of the copiable values for the copy, along with any other abilities that were copied. Edit: layer 6 is abilities not 4.

[@tyberiousmcelvogue8396]

I’m confused on why the original doesn’t get sakashimas bounce effect because it should update Marvin with a new ability right nvrmind saw pinned comment

[@thetrinketmage]

I think I have a fun card to suggest!

[@AinzOoalGownGamer]

I just want to point out that Marvin text applies exclusively to a card named Marvin... When Sakashima copies it and retain the name, the text shouldn't apply to him (only if the text was 'this creature...'

[@attackoncardboard]

That's not correct. CR201.5. Text that refers to the object it’s on by name means just that particular object and not any other objects with that name, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects. And 201.5b If an ability of an object refers to that object by name, and an object with a different name gains that ability, each instance of the first name in the gained ability that refers to the first object by name should be treated as the second name.

[@RoflCannon6]

So what I’m gathering from this is that if someone plays those two cards together, we kick them off the table and continue the game as though they didn’t exist. Got it.

[@attackoncardboard]

Learning about Layers, Timestamps and Dependencies is important for MTG. They're used in every single game! (Unless you're just playing with vanilla creatures and nothing else 😂)

[@blitzdeathdefy608]

wouldnt marvin also have sakishimas ability?

[@attackoncardboard]

I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.

[@joedoe7572]

8:23 That's a *_really_* creepy threat

[@theicyphoenix1063]

Doesn't really matter much cause either way you end up with using timestamp order, but isn't there no dependency between the two at all? Neither ability is changing the text or existence of the others' ability, they both have "this gains all activated abilities..." applying one doesn't change the effect of the other right?

[@attackoncardboard]

Applying one does change the other though? If Marvin gains a new activated ability, so will Sakashima. If Sakashima gains a new activated ability, so will Marvin. Theyre both dependent on each other.

[@alicetheaxolotl]

Sakashima gaining an ability would change what abilities Marvin gains, and vice versa. So they are dependent.

[@sobrcelt]

Layers break my brain 🤕

[@drearydoll6305]

When they tell you mtg is a simple game.

[@dannybeane2069]

Now for the timestamp thing if both enter at the same time, if you had it so Marvin applied his effect after Saka's. Would marvin be the one with two instances of Saka's ability?

[@attackoncardboard]

Assuming you had a Marvin in play for Saka to copy, yes :)

[@eragon7879]

so to my understanding with 1 Marvin IT would lose the ability of llanowar elves once the llanowar elves leaves the Battlefield. Does that mean in this case it wouldnt lose that ability. Also are there any crazy Combos with that.

[@attackoncardboard]

Layers are checked constantly. So as soon as the Elves leave play, Marvin (and Sakashima) would lose that ability. If you had a Horseshoe Crab and anything ability that taps for 2 mana, that's infinite mana right there.

[@NateTmi]

marven & saka both also get the tag that they can't copy from marven, regardless of what name they have. So even if they can copy from each other, we should have at max. marven copy elf & saka copy elf, then marven copy saka & saka can not copy any marven! & saka may copy it self. So that adds up to 4 of the elf tap for green.

[@attackoncardboard]

That's not correct. 201.5b If an ability of an object refers to that object by name, and an object with a different name gains that ability, each instance of the first name in the gained ability that refers to the first object by name should be treated as the second name. Example: Dimir Doppelganger says “{1}{U}{B}: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. Dimir Doppelganger becomes a copy of that card and gains this ability.” Dimir Doppelganger’s ability is activated targeting a Runeclaw Bear card. The Doppelganger becomes a copy of Runeclaw Bear and gains an ability that should be treated as saying “{1}{U}{B}: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. Runeclaw Bear becomes a copy of that card and gains this ability.”

[@Rockjay288]

Projenitor mimic copies an enchantment that Bello, bard of the brambles, is currently making a creature. Progenitor mimic would copy the enchantment, but still be a creature on your turn. If bello leaves, projenitor will no longer be a creature on your turn. Does it's effect do nothing?

[@seandun7083]

It still makes copies of itself. In the same way that "Marvin has all activated abilities of other creatures with different names" doesn't care if the creature with the ability is Marvin, "At the beginning of your upkeep, of this creature isn't a token, make a token copy of this creature" doesn't care if it's source is a creature. In both cases "Marvin", or "this creature" means the same thing as "this permanent".

[@DDTRAINER]

How would Sakashima get any activated abilities if its name is still "Sakashima the Imposter?" Marvin's text only says that a creature named "Marvin, Murderous Mimic" will gain any effects.

[@attackoncardboard]

Because reading the card doesn't explain the card 😅 Marvin's ability actually means "it can't copy abilities from creatures with the same name as this creature" 201.5b If an ability of an object refers to that object by name, and an object with a different name gains that ability, each instance of the first name in the gained ability that refers to the first object by name should be treated as the second name. Example: Quicksilver Elemental says, in part, “{U}: Quicksilver Elemental gains all activated abilities of target creature until end of turn.” If it gains an ability that says “{G}: Regenerate Cudgel Troll,” activating that ability will regenerate Quicksilver Elemental, not the Cudgel Troll it gained the ability from.

[@DDTRAINER]

@@attackoncardboard oh jeeze. I love Magic but sometimes it's just too much like an onion. Thanks for the explanation. 🙂

[@kevin171994]

Im heartbroken with the bans

[@jlyxxy8]

First video I see in the suggested shorts is a VeggieWagon video lol

[@attackoncardboard]

😅

[@cocoloco6388]

Could you explain the interactions between a Theros Gods(devotion matters) and the enchantment creatures that said when this creature dies return it to the battlefield, but it is not a creature.

[@alicetheaxolotl]

So, spoiler alert: There's not really much of an interaction. In all ways relevant to this particular interaction, they are essentially the same ability, as they both remove the creature card type from an enchantment creature. However, I will still explain it in the spirit of the question. Let's say you use Mirrormade, copying Enduring Innocence, then that copy dies, you can return the Mirrormade with the death trigger, and have it enter as a copy of Heliod. That will give you a permanent affected by both abilities (which is the only way these can interact). Since they both apply in Layer 4, we use timestamps. In this case, the Enduring Innocence ability will have a timestamp at the time it triggered, while the Heliod ability has a timestamp at the time it entered. So Enduring Innocence will always have an earlier timestamp and apply first. Enduring Innocence says "This card is now an enchantment (and no other types)." Then Heliod says "This permanent stops being a creature", while it already is not a creature.

[@Bugimen234]

Yes, they don't break the game, they break my brain :v

[@1337w0n]

I don't see how this breaks the game at all. Let's assume for a second that they both have infinite copies of the same activated ability. Even with a circumvention of an effect of a smallnumber of cards, the fact is still incredibly niche.

[@rogerioignaciomoya]

Rules have gotten so complicated that one needs to go into a rabbit hole of rules madness just to arrive at the most LOGICAL and INTUITIVE conclusion, that both permanents have both abilities at the same time and that's it. I have been playing magic most of my life and I hate this needlesly complicated aspect of the game. When games are extremely non-intuitive as this shows, it's a horrendous design flaw, and it should be addressed.

[@attackoncardboard]

Point of order, they don't have both abilities at the same time. One will have one set, the other will have two sets.

[@seandun7083]

I mean the fact that you find the outcome intuitive is evidence that the system is working. It's hard to give an intuitive outcome this often without as much complexity as there is.

[@SoylentGreenMuffins]

Shouldn’t Marvin gain Sakashima’s bounce ability? Or am I missing something about the timing?

[@seandun7083]

Yes. That one will get stolen specifically because it's granted as part of the copy effect rather than as a normal ability granting effect. That means it happens on layer 1, which is before either of the Marvin ability stealing effects are applied on layer 4. Marvin will then copy that ability, then Sakashima will copy it back leading to them having 1 and 2 instances of it respectively.

[@attackoncardboard]

I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.

[@caseywellington4761]

Why is it always Layers...

[@irtnyc]

Could you explain whether or not Marvin or Sakashima would still have the activated ability from the Llanowar Elves if the elf card leaves the battlefield? (Or if a token Copy of Marvin is made; or if it were Blinked or Phased out for example, and the board state changed before it returned?) This may seem like a rookie question but I think even before Marvin there was already a lot of confusion about copies, tokens, clones, and shapeshifer/changeling. Imagine you're 12 years old for example, and there's no Judge around just your know-it-all pal who in fact doesnt know it all...😂

[@Sephiroth517]

Marvin (and therefore Sakashima) continously checks what's on the board, if not then it couldn't gain the abilities of creatures entering after it, which also means that if creatures leave the battlefield, their abilities will be lost, and as such, blinking Marvin won't change anything on which abilities he have. But he'll count as a new objet toward abilities with a limited number of uses and will have regain summoning sickness preventing him from using abilities requiring to tap.

[@jaceg810]

so the original marvin won't have the sakashima activated ability? That feels counterintuitive

[@seandun7083]

It will because they are created as part of the copy effect rather than an ability granting effect. That means Sakashima gets it's bounce ability during layer 1 while they both steal abilities via Marvin's effect during layer 4.

[@jaceg810]

@@seandun7083 Layer 4 is later than layer 1 right, as in, copy applies before ability granting, thus it should copy. Similarly to Marvin copying something from a clone of elvish mystic.

[@seandun7083]

@@jaceg810 yes (though I messed up a bit since layer 6 is actually the ability granting 1. L4 is type changing. That shouldn't change things here though).

[@attackoncardboard]

I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.

[@mauriciogun]

Hi AoC! I asked a group of judges that couldn’t give me an unique answer, they didn’t agree on it, so I came to you, The card is Bestial Fury, it has an unique updated oracle text regarding a trigger with a draw: “When it ETB’s, draw a card at THE BEGINNING OF THE NEXT TURN’S UPKEEP” Cool, what if the next turn has more than one upkeep? Note that the text is different from the regular “draw a card at the beginning of the next upkeep” Bestial fury has this unique text Would you help me answer this question? Thanks!

[@seandun7083]

That is actually the standard templating for those kinds of effects. Mishra's Bauble, Portent, Arcane Denial, and tons of other similar cards also use it. Conversely, I think Archangel Avacyn is the only one that uses "at the beginning of the next upkeep", though plenty use that for other parts of the turn. That being said, while I would think it only triggers on the first upkeep, I've had a hard time finding anything that clarifies it.

[@ocirMZ]

It should only trigger once. 603.7b A delayed triggered ability will trigger only once-the next time its trigger event occurs-unless it has a stated duration, such as “this turn.” If its trigger event occurs more than once simultaneously and the ability doesn’t have a stated duration, the controller of the delayed triggered ability chooses which event causes the ability to trigger.

[@jordantomis4250]

So just for curiosity sake the original Marvin never gains sakisimas bounce ability right

[@attackoncardboard]

See pinned comment.

[@brianwise5850]

You also missed the sakashima ability added to Marvin. But it isn't important to the example.

[@attackoncardboard]

I've pinned a comment detailing this 😅

[@stasiupompka6499]

So, suppose I control Rishkar, Peema Renegade with a counter on it and Marvin without a counter on it. In that case, it's also relevant which permanent entered the battlefield first while determining whether Marivn can tap for green or not?

[@ToadboyMTG]

OK here's a question! What if! You have Marvin out! Then storm the festival hitting Marvin and saka! You keep the new Marvin leaving the Marvin and saka being played at the same exact time...(saka targeted the old marvin to copy) Can you apply the layers a different way?

[@attackoncardboard]

It would basically just be reversed. Sakashima will have 1 set of abilities, Marvin would have 2.

[@ToadboyMTG]

@@attackoncardboard makes sense...dope cards pretty cool ngl

[@seandun7083]

And of course you decide which order the timestamps for the new ones apply in if they enter at the same time.

[@priscillaquinn9505]

So if marvin is copying multiple tap abilities from multiple creatures, say lanowar elves and royal assasin, does marvin have to tap and pick a single ability or does it tap being able to destroy a tapped creature and also generating a green mana at the same time?

[@seandun7083]

Tapping him only pays for one ability in the same way that you can't use a single Red mana to activate Shivan Dragon multiple times. Of course if you have something like Horseshoe Crab you could untap him and do another. If you have 2 Wall of Roots, Marvin would have 2 instances of the "once per turn" ability and could activate both of them once per turn.

[@Deathgaming112]

Judges always believe who calls them over first always make sure your the first one and if not request for your own judge cause that one will 100% be biased against you

[@attackoncardboard]

How so?

[@Deathgaming112]

@@attackoncardboard cause you wont call someone out for lying

[@Deathgaming112]

@@attackoncardboard and if you do, then its always the guy you didnt get called over for

[@Deathgaming112]

@@attackoncardboard its like the other guy has a lawyer and you dont

[@attackoncardboard]

Can you give me an example situation? A Judges job is to investigate a situation. Judges will call people out for lying. There's no shortage of players getting DQ'ed for doing so.

[@miguelruiz8762]

Would a Mairsil, the Pretender have his activated abilities copied from a Marvin?

[@seandun7083]

Yeah. Both are on layer 6, but since what Marvin's ability does depends on what abilities Mairsil gets, we apply Mairsil first due to dependencies. (In the Sakashima example both depend of the other so we use timestamps to break the tie). Mairsil steals abilities from all the Caged things, then Marvin steals the abilities from Mairsil and all your other creatures.

[@lordxtheth2634]

So... In before the actual answer. As a guy who pretty much hasn't played for 25 years, and only just got back into commander format. Each card (mimic, and mimic mimic) will copy the ability once. If I'm right, it's not hard to figure this out. If I'm wrong, then MTG is broken.

[@lordxtheth2634]

After seeing the answer. I'm actually surprised it turned out the way it did. I gotta say, it IS a bit broken.

[@attackoncardboard]

Sakashima and Psychic paper are the only 2 cards that can set up this combo, so it still requires quite a bit of work to get online PLUS you need some decent activated abilities to go along with them.

[@deadalus1991]

Soo...why Sakashima's activated return effect isn't copied on Marvin?? Marvin would see this ability manifest on Sakashima, wouldn't it? I don't see a timing exception on Marvin's text :/

[@seandun7083]

That one will get stolen specifically because it's granted as part of the copy effect rather than as a normal ability granting effect. That means it happens on layer 1, which is before either of the Marvin ability stealing effects are applied on layer 4. Marvin will then copy that ability, then Sakashima will copy it back leading to them having 1 and 2 instances of it respectively.

[@deadalus1991]

@@seandun7083 I have to say @attackoncardboard should have clarified this, seeing as many people left confused about this ability getting copied in the comments, and that the whole video was about copying effects!

[@attackoncardboard]

I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.

[@Y00bi]

My question about Marvin/Sakashima wasn't answered here and I assume that it works by removing the abilities from both. But if Llanowar Elves gets removed after Sakashima and Marvin have seen each other with those activated abilities, do either of them keep Llanowar Elves abilities because they SEE each other with them when Llanowar elves dies, or does the ability get removed from both?

[@attackoncardboard]

Layers are updated constantly and instantly. If Elves leave play, Marvin and Sakashima won't have that ability

[@mrgarneau4895]

Marvin, Murderous Mimic is my new Roaming Throne. Once you understand the rules of the game, both cards become not that good. (Not that RT is a bad card, just the rules are funky)

[@CoiledMTG]

Wouldnt marvin also get the bouce ability?

[@sirderik]

So il be honest, if I read this 2 cards with my current lack of knowledge about layers...i still dont get the conclusion is just its a infinite spiral...even if it was i would instead try to find how "activate onces per " actually works rather than this spefic rabbit hole as having infinite Tap to add 1 mana doesn't do jack shit by itself.

[@IceBen4444]

If a new ability adding effect comes into play then Marvin will depend on it and it will wedge itself in before him, right? Doesn't this apply to Sakashima's return to hand ability as well since it is from a different ability than the one in the delendency loop?

[@seandun7083]

If you mean someone playing another clone that ignores the legend rule (maybe spark double), then all 3 will have a dependency loop and apply in timestamp order of Marvin -> Sakashima -> Spark Double. If you instead mean something that just adds an activated ability to something (Maybe you put Dual Casting on your Llanowar Elves), then Marvin and Sakashima will both be dependent on that, but it won't be dependent on them so it applies first, then the other two apply in timestamp order due to their dependency loop.

[@orgazmo686971]

What was the KZbinr video that said otherwise? I feel like I saw it, or read it on Reddit, but can't find it.

[@attackoncardboard]

If you search "MTG Marvin", there's a video with a thumbnail that's an outright lie 😂

[@orgazmo686971]

@@attackoncardboard Found the one I saw, which was from Veggiewagon. The answer was in the comments there about timestamp and an example of another existing creature. Not sure if that's the one you're talking about, but the thumbnail would be a lie as it claims judges don't know.

[@drvissie]

Wouldn’t sakashima still have the name marvin in the text box? Like the name is sakashima but the abilities wouldn’t change right?

[@attackoncardboard]

Nope. CR201.5. Text that refers to the object it’s on by name means just that particular object and not any other objects with that name, regardless of any name changes caused by game effects. And CR201.5b If an ability of an object refers to that object by name, and an object with a different name gains that ability, each instance of the first name in the gained ability that refers to the first object by name should be treated as the second name.

[@seppesch3701]

wait so no cost tap only effects are not activated effects? sorry if this is a dumb question, but now i am confused

[@attackoncardboard]

Anything with (cost):[result] is an activated ability. It doesn't have to include a tap symbol.

[@seppesch3701]

NVM, just the start was formulated a bit weird

[@NateTmi]

Why would sakashima get tap add green from marvin when the first ability reads that this monster can't copy anything named marvin? I don't see why that line would change? or are u saying this because sakashima can copy itself one time? & that is effectively the same. also, marvin should have a copy of the return effect that sakashima has?

[@seandun7083]

Sakashima doesn't copy Marvin's name. The ability doesn't say "...of creatures you control not named Marvin...", but instead "of creatures you control that don't have the same name as this creature." Therefore, the Sakashima will get all activated abilities of cards not named Sakashima. But yeah, Marvin does copy the return effect which means Sakashima will copy it back.

[@donovanoakes9566]

Would this make Sakashima tap for 2 green mana as an end result?

[@attackoncardboard]

No, they would have two separate instances of T: add G

[@KenshinKura]

Still kind of new to Magic, but why does it matter if he has extra tap for green if you can only tap him for 1 ability at a time?

[@alicetheaxolotl]

Most abilities, including Llanowar Elves tap ability, will not care about having multiple copies of the ability. So that doesn't really matter. However, there are situations where it does matter: For example, Beledros Witherbloom can only be activated once, but you can use it multiple times if you have multiple instances of the ability.

[@attackoncardboard]

For the video, Llanowar Elves had the simplest and clearest activated ability I could think of. The video was already complicated enough, I didn't want to muddy the waters with any more confusion. You can replace that ability with anything else.

[@artor9175]

In what way is this broken? Even if you have infinite tap for green abilities, you still only get one green per tap. What I want to know is this: can you use Marvin's ability to return Sakashima to your hand?

[@seandun7083]

Marvin stealing Sakashima's bounce ability means you can use the copied ability to return Marvin to it's owner's hand. When a card uses it's own name, if it doesn't say something like "a creature named ", then it just means "this card".

[@Sephiroth517]

For a "tap: add G" ability it's indeed useless to know since it makes no difference. But for abilities which you can only use "once per turn" (say, 1 : draw a card, only once per turn) it's important to actually know how many time you get it, because even tough the text of the ability would be the same, each iteration count as a separate ability which can be used once.

[@attackoncardboard]

Llanowar Elves was just the cleanest and simplest activated ability I could think of. The point of the video is to show the interaction between Marvin and Sakashima, not which are the best cards for them. That's probably a separate video.

[@rfcmm]

Why doesn't Marvin gain the 2UU: Return effect?

[@attackoncardboard]

See pinned comment. I made a mistake and thought Sakashima got their bounce ability in Layer 6, which if they did, it would be correct 😅

[@rfcmm]

Thank you. I am one of the many lazy people who don't read comments before posting.

[@mlp_firewind8129]

Okay, my follow up question would be does having multiple copies of an activated ability with a once per turn clause let you use it multiple times per turn. Because personally the way I read it the once per turn restriction would effect the ability as a whole not each instance of it independent. But also I don’t know the rules and am dumb so.

[@attackoncardboard]

The "once per turn" clause is tied to the individual ability. So if you had Beledros Witherbloom in play instead of Llanowar Elves, Sakashima could activate *each* instance of that ability once.

[@Rizso1]

would marvin not gain activated abilities if they are granted? like the sakashima bounce, what about paradise mantle?

[@attackoncardboard]

I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too. In the case of Paradise Mantle, it depends on Timestamps. If Marvin comes into play *after* the Mantle has been equipped, yes. The creature will gain that ability before Marvin copies everything. If Marvin is in play first, they apply their copy effect *before* Mantle gives the creature the activated ability.

[@KBgamer2010]

Popular KZbinr is Veggiwagon...isn't it?

[@attackoncardboard]

🤔👀

[@raze667]

Do you even need the elf in this example? Sakshima already has an activated ability for Marvin to copy. I DO actually have a question about Rendmaw. If you have a mycosynth lattice in play will playing a land that does not have two types cause him to trigger. I'm aware that they would trigger an etb effect like panharmonicon. However, I'm uncertain about the specific interactions about the special game action of playing a land for turn. Does the game need to KNOW the land in your hand has two types, or will it having two types once it's entered the battlefield be enough? I partially blame wotc for lumping both triggers into the somewhat murky "play" action. I hope you can go into this; because, it'll decide if a mycosynth lattice will be a good addition or not.

[@Sephiroth517]

Mycosynth lattice only add the artifact card type to permanents, i.e. cards and tokens on the battlefield, so when you play a land that doesn't natively have a second card type it won't trigger Rendmaw.

[@raze667]

@@Sephiroth517 do you know the relevant rules that apply to this interaction? Everything that isn't a land needs to enter the stack, where it would be checked for the correct typing. Lands go from a hidden zone where their characteristics aren't known, onto the battlefield where they will be artifact lands.

[@Sephiroth517]

@@raze667 cards in your hands are not hidden to the game mechanics, nothing is... Anytime you play a card, Rendmaw ability will trigger to check it's types to see if he create a token and put it on the stack, or not. That happens as soon as you play the card, before the card itself enters the stack, if it's a spell (like the "when you cast this spell" effects on Ulamog), or directly enters the battlefield if it's a land. And so, before the lattice indeed add artifact to the card's existing types.

[@raze667]

@@Sephiroth517 again do you have relevant rules for that? "When you cast" is when the spell is on the stack not before. Otherwise anything that would trigger would be under the spell. There is no stack to delay the land from already being an artifact once it hits the battlefield. Also there absolutely are hidden information zones. Every card in your deck is nothing but a"card" until is it revealed.

[@alanevans5353]

so when we play another creature with an activated ability what happens? Does Marvin then update and get the new activated ability, and every instance of Sakashima's abilities, then Sakashima gets every instance of every ability Marvin has, and the new activated ability?

[@attackoncardboard]

Layers are updated constantly and instantly. We apply them in the same order. Earliest timestamp first, in this case Marvin. Then Sakashima. Marvin will have 1 set of abilities, Sakashima will have 2 sets.

[@alanevans5353]

@@attackoncardboardso what stops Marvin from seeing abilities that have already been applied to Sakashima?

[@attackoncardboard]

How Layers are applied. When Marvin gets their abilities, Sakashima doesn't have any yet to copy.

[@alanevans5353]

@@attackoncardboard so they lose their abilities every time layers are applied, and get them back when they get to the 6th layer?

[@attackoncardboard]

Imagine the completed board state is a painting. And the layers are the coats of paint you need to apply. Every time something happens, you paint a new painting.

[@gryphon2927]

if i eat my opponents commander, can they still "use it" or do i "win"?

[@attackoncardboard]

In a tournament setting, realistically, you would likely get a Match Loss or a DQ under IPG 4.2 Unsporting Conduct - Major 😅 otherwise I can see you just getting banned from the store/play group.

[@gryphon2927]

@@attackoncardboard hahahah now i know it thank you

[@MikeJohnson-ct8dm]

Marvin, Sakashima , panharmonicon?

[@attackoncardboard]

Marvin cares about Activated abilities. Panharmonicon cares about Triggered abilities.

[@guscaminati6432]

would marvin not get the sakashima ability of bounce itself?

[@attackoncardboard]

I made a mistake. I thought that Sakashima would gain that ability during Layer 6, after Marvin applied their abilities. This is incorrect, Sakashima gains that ability during Layer 1 as part of it's copy effect. So Marvin would see it and copy that too.

[@2superstobie]

The video about misinformation has mis i formation marvin should have the sakashima abilty as well. This demonstrates how stupidly complicated layers is and the game is due for a rules clean up. 99% of the game is simple easy and intuitive just get that last 1% on the same page

[@attackoncardboard]

Difference is: as soon as I spotted the error, I replied to every comment asking about it and I've pinned a comment stating the correction. As well as the main crux of this video not being impacted by this mistake, if it was, I would have taken it down.

[@mativaleriaolsen]

When do special actions take place in the middle of card text ?(asking for "come back wrong" killing an commander)

[@ocirMZ]

Special Actions are actions players can take like playing lands or morphing cards, which they can (normally, rooms for example have special restrictions) do as long as the have priority, but don't use the stack. You are probably talking about "State Based Actions", which is what's relevant for "come back wrong", which is stuff like "creature that has been dealt lethal damage dies" or "players can put a commander that has been placed into graveyard or exile [...] Into the command zone". SBA's are always checked just before a player gains priority, and in the cleanup step at the end of the turn, where the players normally wouldn't get priority. Since players don't get priority while a spell or ability is resolving, SBAs are also not checked. The next time SBA are checked after a "come back wrong" targeting a commander started resolving (as long as no other tomfoolery is afoot like a "rest in peace"), the game will see the commander sitting on the battlefield (just on the enemies side), and not in the graveyard or exile, and therefore not perform any SBA moving it into the command zone. This is especially confusing due to triggered abilities. A triggered abilities starts with "whenever", "when" or "at". Triggered abilities can and will trigger whenever the event occurs, even if no player has priority, but the game will wait until a player has priority before getting put on the stack. Example: you have a commander, a blood artist (has "whenever a creature dies" triggered ability) and the opponent casts "come back wrong" on your commander. 1. "Destroy target creature -> commander is destroyed and put into the graveyard 2. Blood artist triggers and is waiting to be out onto the stack 3. If it is put into the graveyard this way (checks the creature actually ended up there, and wasn't for example indestructible, or got put into exile due to the replacement effect of rest in peace) 4. Return it to the battlefield -> commander is returned to the battlefield 5. Sacrifice it at the beginning of your next end step -> create a delayed trigger 6. Spell is done resolving, which means the active player would gain priority next 7. SBA is checked. Commander is on the battlefield, so no SBA necessary 8. Blood artist ability is put on the stack 9. SBA is checked again, but still nothing necessary 10. Active player gets priority If "come back wrong" read "when it dies ...", it would actually create two delayed triggers, and the spell would finish resolving after the creature was destroyed and the delayed triggers where created. In that case, you could move the commander into the command zone before the trigger steals the it

[@attackoncardboard]

While the other comment is correct, it is worth noting that Replacement Effects can happen during the middle of a spell. For example, if you were to Chaos Warp my Commander, I can choose to put it in the Command Zone instead (during the resolution of the spell).

[@deadpool-yb1pw]

You cant have them enter at the same time? Sakashima need Marvin on the board to become a copy or am i wrong.

[@attackoncardboard]

You're right that if Sakashima and Marvin enter at the same time, Sakashima can't copy Marvin. I only mention that piece of knowledge about Timestamps because someone always asks in the comments when I mention them

[@seandun7083]

Another person suggested that you play a Marvin, then Storm the Festival getting a second Marvin and a Samashima. You have Sakashima copy the old Marvin then let it die to legend rule.

[@deadpool-yb1pw]

@@seandun7083 but then you stil have layering