Mat Lalonde Nutrient Density: Sticking to the Essentials AHS12

Mathieu Lalonde, Ph.D, presenting at the Ancestral Health Symposium 2012 (AHS12).
Nutrient Density: Sticking to the Essentials
Abstract:
A proposed model of nutrient density that eliminates established biases is employed to compare the nutrient density of meat, vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds to that of grains and legumes.
Bio:
Mathieu Lalonde is an organic chemist with a genuine interest in human metabolism, nutritional biochemistry, health and athletic performance.

[@Rockymtwomen]

Great presentation! Mat is the Nate Silver of nutrition: research/science based, strong analytical/critical thinking skills. I wished that Mat had not been so dismissive of the young man's question. Questions, even trivial ones, can encourage discourse and thoughtful exchange of information.

[@TyrannicalReigner]

Rockymtwomen I wish that he could have addressed the question better. And the kids questions are not that hard to address really. But I think Mat didnt want to take time away from questions that were on topic.

[@aslurmyfrog]

I attended this event. I will say that while Dr Lalonde had a biting riposte, he and the questioner spoke afterwards, resolved their issues ,and so far as I'm aware, no hard feelings remain.

[@mogarcia1861]

True that some vegetable/s may not be high in nutrient, but how high or how much of a particular substance might be in that vegetable/s that may actually have better healing properties in them, e.g. onions, they are a natural penicilin. So some vegetables might rate low in the nutrient category but might have some special substance that does wonders for the body.

[@alphacause]

Dr. Lalonde's lectures always impress me with how detail oriented they are. He is so meticulous with his adherence to good science. I am flabbergasted by the sheer volume of data he processed and analyzed. While the evolutionary paradigm is a very illustrative tool in teaching the rationale behind the Paleo diet, it is well researched and detail oriented presentations, like the one Dr. Lalonde gives here, that really will prove the point to die hard, OPEN MINDED, skeptics.

[@arp0ad0r]

More than forty years ago I took the FDA's red paperback Composition of Foods book and manually ran the divisions required to get effective nutrient ratios for a number of key foods. We used slide rules back then. I really value Mr. Lalonde's effort in pulling together such a comprehensive set of calculations of essential nutrients.

[@arp0ad0r]

The second questioner pointed out the logical flaw implicit in Mr. Lalonde's work: for essential nutrients, "Enough is enough." If your frame of reference is McDonald's and Fries, then nutrient density is important. If you're getting a good varied, vegetable-based diet, this becomes useful just to help mop up the last few nutrientes. Michael Pollan's line, "Eat real foods. Not too much. Mostly plants." is a much better guide to everyday eating.

[@Vinegaroon]

Legume agriculture is sustainable. They encourage the growth of nitrogen fixing bacteria and can be used to cut back on fertilizers and maintain soil health after heavy farming of more demanding crops.

[@djeter2nyy]

WHAT. A. DOUCHE. interesting points though idk, if i'm convinced that nutrient density is THE most important thing!!

[@Percyfaith7]

I believe that It is not the most important thing and neither is food the most important thing....important but not the most important thing. If in context of health...oxygen (of course), then light, water and magnetism as taught by Dr. Jack Kruse are critical. He teaches that light is more about health than food.

[@justaddmusclecom]

I would advise taking most of this with a grain of salt. So many variables to make this pretty useless except for reference.

[@ThomasAT86]

8 months later, but I still wanna agree on that. People should always question things, especially when somebody praises to have found THE "secret" to health, or says that everybody should eat a certain food or macronutrient-ratio. We are all different (stress levels, stress response, sleep schedule, daily schedule, work load, physical activity, origin, genetics, seasons/climate,.....), therefore have different macro- and micronutrient needs (aswell as amount of meat etc), and as a wise man once said "One man's meat is another man's poison". We tend to like the idea that there is the "easy" way or a secret or a one-size-fits-all (as we get programmed to think). Also, when it comes down to such nutrient profiles, one should always keep in mind that science is finding new nutrients all the time!

[@wholefoodplantlife]

100g of broccoli vs. 100g of ground beef Calories-beef Cholesterol-beef Fat-beef Sodium-beef Fiber-broc Potassium-broc Vitamin a-broc Vitamin c-broc Calcium-broc Iron-beef Protein-beef Now per calorie (there are 34 calories in 100g broccoli and 276 calories in 100g beef) Cholesterol-beef Fat-beef (by 1.9g) Sodium-beef (by16mg) Fiber-broc Potassium-broc Vitamin a-broc Vitamin c-broc Calcium-broc Iron-broc Protein-beef (by .3g) Which is more nutrient dense? Which nutrients would you rather have?

[@roberthenry918]

Excellent presentation! There's always somebody in the audience with a two part question that doesn't care that they cut into everyone elses time. The best thing to do when you have so many people with a question and only 15 minutes to answer questions is to do what Mat did. Yes, he could have handled it a little more diplomatically but he's human and if you've ever done any public speaking you know that it can be a real pain in the ass. Especially when you're under a time constraint. And of course you've got the vegan agenda in the comments section..."he's a dickhead", "his shirt is too big", "he's arrogant", "he left stuff out", blah blah blah. Notice how they don't refute the information but instead they attack the messenger. Typical attempt to sway public opinion.

[@LucasTigy2]

another method is some speakers will also tell the person with more questions to see them afterwards to answer those questions personally so that they can move on to the other people waiting

[@MilkMeatEggs]

Love it, it clearly busts some of the myths like getting vitamins/minerals from fruits and veg mainly, and that sweet potato is more nutritious then regular potatoes. Great presentation!

[@hypoglycemiacme]

Mat Lalonde is a rockstar!

[@Raiken3712]

I've read in the Be Kind to Your Grains post on Weston A. Price site that soaking, fermenting, sprouting grains adds to nutrients and improves the grain profile. It would be nice to see that information. Wonder if that exists somewhere.

[@Yellowtable101]

So what is the bioavailability of meat?

[@winrim7]

I would suggest you take into account grand dad's post physical activity during his childhud to later stage of life. As you know our generation do less physical activity where if you compare other generations before where they build roads, railways, work in farms, build homes without the the tools and technology we have in 21 sentry. therefore the demand of gyms and other group activities are high. Hope this makes sense!

[@iuliancioca]

Matt forgot to include some details. Try eating 100g of spices or 300g of egg yolks for example. Then try eating 1 kg of fresh mangoes. :) Even a kid can eat kg-s of fruits at once with no problems. Yohan Blake said in an interview he ate 30 bananas a day once as a youngster...he wasn't an athlete then, he was playing nintendo. Then, grains and legumes can be sprouted(like annette larkins), bioavailability increases. Might not work as a staple but definitely worth giving a look.

[@Mardal]

I can see its a presentation from aug 2012, does anybody know if he have had a chance to improve his model, by using more complete data or changing the algorithm? And does anybody have a link for the spreadsheet?

[@mommydanna]

Fascinating stuff. Love this guy!!

[@ladytempest7273]

Thank you!

[@jjtitus]

AncestryFoundation, would it be possible to include a link to the full excel document in the "About" section? Thanks!

[@TheMunamiKid]

We really need to get that excel document linked to the description, please :)

[@Raiken3712]

39:17 Hmm How does traditional preparation of grains and legumes play into this? If you soak, ferment, sprout...does it improve them and than cook is that any better?

[@heylindayoureabitch]

Love this guy.

[@BansheeVanRaven]

Yes, makes complete sense. I've said the same, we're in an era of laziness and wanting things quick and fast and right now. But i was mentioning more about looking healthy and being healthy being 2 different things. One doesn't necessarily mean the other. Just like you can be chubby and still be healthy. People have forgotten what healthy means. Unless you check with tests and possibly scans, you can't say for sure that someone is healthy.

[@erdistheword23]

If saturated fat is so good for the brain, then why has saturated fat been repeatedly implicated in Alzheimer's Disease, particularly in people with the APOE4 allele?

[@Goskav]

Wonderful presentation! I knew that liver are best!

[@ejf071189]

Can anyone explain why vegetables and fruit went further down the list when he converted the numbers to nutrient density/caloric weight at 40:00?

[@NicholasLayton]

He said he chose the Excel version of the data to make it available for everyone. Where is the data?

[@LucasTigy2]

i'm curious to see all of this data with antinutrients factored in as well. not to mention the other factors that didn't seem accounted for like certain nutrients that need to be converted to a form that the body can absorb as well as the percentage of those nutrients that can be absorbed. this is a good start, but it feels like more information is still needed in order to create a more accurate representation

[@rowerss]

where can I see his work? where can I tee that table of all foods?

[@slweydt]

ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=22113

[@carrollhoagland1053]

I like Mat ... and Rhonda Patrick, 2 scientists who are actually expressing opinions ... Physicians have abandoned the nutritional approach to patient diagnostics and medicine, simply because they are not trained in nutrition. A key part of the Hippocratic Oath ... “I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure... “, has been forgotten … 70 Going On 100.

[@YoungCab]

decent parse, but no correction for anti-nutrient, gmo?/organic?/sourcing, or insulin influence.

[@globalvillageidiot]

Does he do a mic drop at the end?

[@theramseyclark]

Is there anywhere one may download this information?

[@slweydt]

ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=22113

[@Just1Spark]

An interesting point that goes along with these guys saying not to just blindly swallow this list as your diet.... Consider Black Pepper rated low on the scale of spices. Black pepper is known to increase the bioavailability of food nutrients. For instance, research supports that combining the piperine in black pepper with the curcumin in turmeric enhances curcumin absorption by up to 2,000%.

[@nathanielcurie2296]

But... What about the amino acids and fatty acids? wouldn't the resulting data and conclusions be skewed without data for these macro nutrient categories?

[@alphacause]

Thank you for the correction.

[@foreverlearning9964]

I respect the effort put into this! I am freaking appalled at how he spoke to that young man at question time, shot him down, argued continuously, ego raging. Yuck. What a way to discourage the younger generation who actually cares about the future of the planet.

[@conni70]

his intention was to get into a debate, not a discussion...it was more than evident..Matt did the right thing by shutting him down

[@jenniferbalter8888]

The kid kept saying "I agree" and trying to find common ground. The way the speaker handled question time was extremely off putting. All the brains in the world don't make up for a lack of tact.

[@jenniferbalter8888]

When a person is that defense, it makes me question the integrity of their work. If he was confident in what he is doing, he wouldn't have been that intimidated by a young man asking polite questions.

[@conni70]

Jennifer Stuck ...you can say "i agree" all you want, but that doesn't change what your intention is..and the kids intention was to get into a debate...he came across as a smart ass

[@jenniferbalter8888]

It looks like everyone else who viewed this video perceived things differently than yourself. It takes a very thin skin / fragile ego to take this is starting a debate. Even so, debates used to be something that were encouraged in the intellectual world as a way to share points of view and problem shoot new info. Anyone confident in their work wouldn't be threatened to answer a few questions. It looks like he was afraid to be shown up by someone younger but perhaps already more intelligent than himself.

[@leonfdawson]

Any way to get these slides?

[@jameswarner7280]

Where can one get this data set?

[@conceptualelegance]

irrelevant formula ) . thats not how we work, we need different , specific nutrients, its doesnt matter which one is the most dense

[@finnireland86]

Anyone know if it's possible to get copies of his work? Paid for of course

[@rich0292]

How does avoiding grains and legumes make us low carbers? Did you watch the video?

[@osdahcas]

This is brilliant work, but I really don't like the way he talked to the kid though..

[@arp0ad0r]

Thank you for the information, Tom. I'll leave this up for a few days (so that anyone who had read my comment can read your reply in context) and then remove it.

[@georgeharrisadventuresinhealth]

Hey folks, I've had this whole video transcribed and popped on my website, I've also added in all the slides, so as you read it you can see what he's talking about. It's a very long post at just shorter than 10,000 words, but well worth the read. It's here adventuresinhealth.co.uk/2013/diet-and-nutrition/the-kraken-index-of-nutrient-density-youtube-video-transcription/ Comments and questions welcomed

[@scotttigereye1135]

Also, let's be clear about the distance. I'm not talking about a marathon distance here. Predators sprint and catch their prey before endurance plays any part in the issue. Those specialized for endurance are the ones running away - because they have to or else....

[@Triangulove]

Wel, they have to mix and match to get complete amino acid profiles. Pea with rice, for example. Or other such mixtures.

[@ArtistasDelMundo]

where is the LINK to download the LIST? let the online community take this work and make it go viral in the internet! :-)

[@georgeharrisadventuresinhealth]

You're welcome.

[@luciniaborgen275]

I was hoping for more from this video as I am a Paleo dieter. But, Mat did not handle the questions from the first commenter well at all. Getting angry and defensive and cutting him off is not a way to win people to your way of thinking. I would not be convinced of the information he presented alone, was I a vegetarian.

[@Just1Spark]

Agreed. Although my thought was he knew who the kid was, and/or had a previous interaction with him, and no progress was going to be made either way. idk

[@wholefoodplantlife]

Truth, the speaker combines "essential nutrients" and grades food by weight and the amount of "essential nutrients" in each. First flaw, it should be measured per calorie, his model gives advantages to calorie dense foods. Second grouping "essential nutrients" and scoring foods based on that specific nutrient make up. If we were to seek out a single food to live off of, great...but nutrition is consuming a variety of foods to get a variety of nutrients, essential and non-essential.

[@SEOshogun]

Announcer: "we have 15 minutes and Mat loves questions" Kid with 2 part question appears. Mat: "I'm about to ruin this kids whole career"

[@colonyofcells]

I cannot eat too many calories bec I lack time for exercise. I try to at least walk after every meal to help lower my blood sugar. More interested in vitamins/minerals divided by calories. Much easier to find protein, fat and carb so there is probably no demand for an excel sheet for the macronutrients. Will try to look at the usda excel sheet when I have time. Aside for finding food with vitamins/minerals, I also check each food item for risks. There's probably not much data on sprouted food.

[@MarcoBuxCoach]

Brilliant analysis but there was no need to treat that kid so bad

[@kin9karn4ge]

KetoBabe it was a little bit dumb as he was trying to argue FOR the grains but the table had just proven them to have a LOW nutritional value. He did come across as an ass hole. But lets be honest the most intelligent people usually do.

[@Krakaet]

+Marco Bux I would agree with you if the kid was observant regarding everything presented to him. However, he said "You didn't treat legumes at all," and he DID treat them....twice...

[@longtermcareexperiences-bi5685]

I love the answer he gave that overpopulation is the problem.

[@taka1taka]

what about the comparison of which foods are considered whole ,meaning that their nutrients are not only bioavailable but absorbable from the organism eaten alone and vise versa, which ones are not bioavailable due to phytic acid or other reasons and which require combination with fat ,because they have fat soluble nutrients? On a question made ,someone said sea food is cheap? where? :P where i live it's expensive...

[@Triangulove]

Joel Fuhrman is 60 years old.

[@brandonation85]

Genius!

[@EFsuffolks]

wondered that as well

[@georgeharrisadventuresinhealth]

The data is being held back whilst he can prepare it for publishing, as far as I'm aware.

[@TheShorterboy]

The kid wasn't asking questions he was making 2 statements he wanted agreement on. The end is for questions not propaganda and question time is limited so all he did was waste time.

[@FitnessCoachMark]

thank you for sharing... While on the surface none of what you posted makes sense to me at this time, I'll look into. gotta be open to differing opinions. After all, at one point I bashed low-carb diets to find out in trials they are quite healthy.

[@PaulCheetham1]

A lot of comments below about how he was rude to that young vegan. I've only seen one other of these AncestryFoundation so far - Georgia Eade - but the same vegan popped up to push the vegan agenda with her too. Maybe others too. Maybe Mat was just tired of it. Don't let it cloud your opinion of a good researcher and speaker.

[@Just1Spark]

That was my suspicion. That he was familiar with this particular person, and had already had previous interactions with him. Like a flat earther, they present a point, you destroy it, they unflinchingly present another.... and on and on, until the cows come home.

[@XIronCross]

Okay, so now mat advocates seeds and nuts?

[@soundthecymbals]

He loves questions.

[@FitnessCoachMark]

I have never heard of this. Alz can be caused by a few things, and one of them is inflammation, an overall inflammatory diet would not be wise. Also, take notice that many implicate mitochondrial decay as one of the root issues, SFA does not harm the mitochondia, but you know what could? The very things we were told to eat "processed carbs" and veggie oils.

[@theramseyclark]

46:57 poor guy's face...

[@Raiken3712]

Sorry forgot to include that I was referencing the Robb Wolf superfood article haven't looked at any of the others.

[@TheLemuroid]

I don't like the assumption that everyone desires to consume less calories. He briefly mentions athletes as a group that would wish to consume more (12:15).

[@grittiban]

If you have listened to him in the past he gets this question all the time. He is annoyed. He has stated his position. Nuff said.

[@r.giskard8570]

I'm as pro-paleo as the next guy. But it was shady of Matt to define nutrient density as nutrient per unit mass. The "argument" (I'm being kind) that athletes can't eat enough to get adequate nutrition unless the food is extremely nutrient dense (per unit mass) is unbelievably feeble. The proper way to have done this would have been on a nutrient per kcal basis. I'm a proponent of animal foods, in combination with plant foods, for optimum health. But let's be honest. It was done the way it was because if it had been done on a per kcal basis animal foods would not have come out looking as good as they did here in comparison to plant foods. They'd still have come out looking good. And liver would still come out as the most nutritional food on the planet. But vegetables would have come out looking appropriately better than they do here. Then again... to *really* do it right, we'd have to figure in the phytate, oxalate, lectins, prolamines, and a whole plethora of other defensive anti-nutrients that plants deploy against us. And that would penalize them substantially. Plants *do not* want us to be able to derive nutrition from eating them. So the end result is probably about the same. For most nutrients, animal foods are better sources than plant foods. Plants are very poor sources of vit D, iron, zinc, and several other nutrients. You can't get certain nutrients from plants at all. Like vitamins A and B12, carnitine, coenzyme Q10, etc. But plants come in handy for a few. Like vitamin E and vitamin C, and contain some plant-specific nutrients like lutein. Eschew either plant or animal foods at your own peril. We need them both.

[@jamesram4869]

durianrider claims b12 deficiency is across the board, not just vegans

[@overcomer4226]

I think Joe firm and did nutrient per kilo calory density. However you would he didn't need to eat bags and bags and bags of a lot of different vegetables and fruits to get enough plussers also bioavailability. Kale il is K1. Not readily converted to K2 at all. Seaweed and natto are K2.

[@grunt12000]

Is a "high carcass" eater someone who is "high" when they eat a carcass? Is it someone who consumes, relatively saying, carcasses that come from animals that have their body mass elevated, like a steer versus a chicken or fish wherein the mass in low? Lastly, is " high carcass eater" trademarked, because I'm thinking a t- shirt with that emblazoned across the front would be stunning!

[@bobibundy]

Somebody could explain how the negative values are formed?

[@stuartstokes5930]

+borislav lazarov It's a standardized score. This mean that foods that rank above average for a particular category (eg Calcium) receive a positive score, while foods that rank below the average receive a negative score - for that category. The score is in fact just the number of standard deviations that the food is above (+) or below (-) the average for that category. Scoring a negative value does not of itself mean that a particular food is bad for you. It does however mean that the food is not a rich source of that particular nutrient. At least not in relation to other foods and per weight of serving.

[@bobibundy]

+Stuart Stokes thank you for the answer. Although it seems straightforward, I still cannot figure it out. What do you mean by average in category? How is the category defined?

[@stuartstokes5930]

+borislav lazarov By category I was referring to one of the specific nutrients studied. Say for example the average Calcium per 100g (averaged over all the foods studied) was 60mg with a standard deviation of 20 mg - then a food that contained 40mg Ca per 100g would score -1 (because it's one standard deviation below the overall average) whereas a food that contained 120mg Ca per 100g would score +3 (because it's three standard deviations above the overall average).

[@D.von.N]

One thing I would like to add to this presentation, and perhaps contradict the whole concept of nutrient density, is that despite fruit came up low in nutrient density, it is also rich in non-nutritious compounds, which are lacking in the meat and animal products. These compounds are those that give fruits and vegetables their colour and protect them from the pests and other environmental stress and which also stress our bodies and condition them against various diseases, including cancer. On the other hand, plant foods do not generally accumulate heavy metals (mushrooms do) or other poisonous chemicals as animals do (liver), they are not infested with parasites or viruses that can be harmful for us, they do not contain proteins or peptides similar to our own, which can pass through the gut and trigger autoimmune reactions, like milk can, for example. So praising only the animal based diet while ignoring its pitfalls is not wise, in my opinion. I am an omnivore, btw, if somebody wanted to call me a vegan troll again.

[@theonlygriffin]

Agreed. Plus onions were bottom of the list yet should be a part of every meal!

[@D.von.N]

theonlygriffin True. Their oligosacharides act like prebiotics, feeding the beneficial bacteria in our intestines.

[@mislavhilc]

+D. von NutriTalks IDK, I cut out raw onions cause that prebiotic made my gut worse. I like starchy foods for gut like rice and potato, my gut feels great when I eat them, I'd guess it's cause of RS ;)

[@TyrannicalReigner]

He didnt include them because he doesnt feel we know enough about them to assess their nutritional value. Thats what he said

[@daretodream25]

Try everything out there if you have chronic health problems. The Terry Wahl's protocol is pretty awesome. 1 full plate of spinach, 1 full plate of broccoli, cabbage, onions, garlic, and one full plate of berries, peaches, carrots, etc. She successfully reversed her MS.

[@charlieparkeris]

Good information, but nutrient density is just part of the picture. And I do believe fiber is important, it plays a role in gut transit and microbiome health.

[@hhubschle]

Hmmm, Dried basil: +76 Dried coriander leaf: +72.4 Whole egg: +2.609 Human milk: -7.999 It seems we got it all wrong; we should raise babies with dried basil and coriander leaf. We could end up with a generation of Supermen and Superwomen! And he presents all of this with a straight face...

[@philcoppa]

I got the same impression.

[@erdistheword23]

Never demonstrated in humans? The Chicago Health and Aging Project and CAIDE Study in Finland beg to differ. watch?v=MJta5XRR_nc What is this "2009 abstract" to which you refer?

[@BobsRevenge]

After watching this and the Q&A... this was a really misleading presentation. I'm sure people in the paleo community were instantly critical of the lack of information on bioavailability and such factors. Beyond that, as someone else pointed out, there is a bias in how the measurement chosen. The worst part was that he didn't admit to the missing data until the end, which throws a lot of the values into question. He also counted the missing data as zeroes, which is absurd for quantitative research. In general, and I'm aware he had time limits, he needed to spend some serious time on the data cleaning and methodology. I understand that this sort of research is more done in, say, economics or the social sciences, but he should know better given his education. However, some of this is still useful. The misconception that meat is an empty calorie is common, and also the fetishization of certain foods that is unfounded, so there should definitely be effort spent on debunking these things. A final word... this guy is a complete douchebag for how he treated the first questioner, who asked a great question to which the presenter responded as, basically, a fascist without mental agility.

[@Mandalaman]

I agree with you about this guy being a douche bag for how he treated the first guy BUT the question was actually irrelevant..He wasn’t asking the guy about his work in making this scale. He was asking him a loaded question about sustainable farming practices which had nothing to do with the talk. He just wanted to talk about permaculture... And I say that being a student and practitioner of permaculture myself.

[@BobsRevenge]

My problem is that his position was basically malthusian, which implies that he prefers mass death to eating legumes and grains, given his other views. I'm not sure if it's this video or another Lalonde video where he says that the population should fit to what's "sustainable." I'm sorry, but this is extreme arrogance and colonialist logic. I'm not convinced that this "sustainability" research is even well backed, as it's known that Western nations have a historical tendency to vastly underestimate the number of people who can survive on a given land-mass. Malthus was one of the first big proponents of this, and pretty much everything he said has turned out wrong. So that's what I meant by fascist.

[@Mandalaman]

ahh ok, its good you clarified that as anyone without that information wouldnt know what you’re getting at. I agree, I dont believe that we are anywhere near overpopulated and there are lots of solutions for sustainable farming that dont have to include the whole world becoming vegetarian... We produce enough food to feed one and a half worlds at the current population already but most gets wasted. Small, local, intensive, organic farming practices are showing to be very good for the environment and in terms of production. Its only a matter of time, as petrol products become more expensive we will have to stop using them which is a good thing, especially in food production. Same thing though, the original question was out of context and it seems that there was some background there. Its very weird he reacted so emotionally to it if there was nothing else going on.

[@BobsRevenge]

Yep, I totally agree.

[@AndreAngelantoni]

Robert McMahon Both of you guys, who I can already tell are intelligent men, need to dig into planetary system dynamics before you judge Matt's comment. Malthus' predictions for the human species haven't come true *yet* but they have for many other species and their story ended with a population crash. Start by reading Limits to Growth: 30-Year Update, the study continually updated by the team at MIT. Pay particular attention to Scenario #1 which is the one humanity is following almost exactly. Notice how non-renewable resources become depleted and food production drops. Shortly after food production begins dropping world population starts to decline. Here is a link: s300.photobucket.com/user/aangelinsf/media/LTGScenario1.jpg.html No one is saying that we want this to happen. But I and others are saying that now that we have gotten to 7.3B people it's too late to prevent it from happening. Before you assert that technology will save the day, consider that technology has actually made the problem worse. It has allowed us to extract increasingly less dense resources. This in turn has allowed us to be fooled into thinking there is no problem and continue to add ~80 million people to the planet every year. Examine Scenario #2 and you'll see that technology allows the system to push further into overshoot and that leads to much steeper declines afterward. s300.photobucket.com/user/aangelinsf/media/LTGScenario2.jpg.html

[@anngunn7447]

Those are called pecs and abs. Very big difference between muscle and fat.

[@SignatureFitness1]

who cares if he comes off as arrogant. he does great science and if you have read his work or heard his interviews he is a very smart dude that is good at calling bullshit on ppl

[@ama-tu-an-ki]

Seems like a reasonable study. If you get an emotional reaction about it, esp. about somebody else's diet, then maybe you have an issue you have to think about yourself. It's a free world, people are free to consume what they want, and to believe what they want. Nutrient or information dense or not :) I've been a pesce-vegetarian for 25 years now, but am considering adding some organic organ meats to my diet now. Why? Why not :)

[@Triangulove]

Please look up vegan body building. You will see plenty of great examples of successful vegan body builders. And it doesn't have to be high carb, but understand one thing. Polymorphisms do exist and not everyone is best suited for the same diet. But instead of focusing on adaptation variability, focus on nutritional content. That is a better argument.

[@1123notae]

I supplement chlorella. So much for "DHA/EPA starved."

[@howzaou812]

He wasn't being a jerk, the kid had absolutely no point and didn't pay attention to the talk. Matt clearly showed that legumes cooked gained nutrition value. To come up up and question that after it was clearly shown is a little annoying and takes away from better questions. He had no points to raise and probably just enjoyed hearing himself at the mic.

[@user-ce8mz6zv6s]

dude is jacked.

[@wholefoodplantlife]

Listen carefully, these are not my words. The speaker states you cannot come to nutrients per calorie because you would not be able to include vitamin enhanced water. True nutrient density is per calorie, this study is misleading.

[@aiglerdaigler]

Joel Fuhrman slide --best slide ever, haha

[@FitnessCoachMark]

Hmm, I thought I gave a cordial reply... anyways, here's an update, and one you may have heard before. But, we are not rats. Plus, rats do not eat animal/fat sources (from what I know)... thus feeding them a food they are not designed for would likely cause issues,just like feeding cholesterol to rabbits way back in the day to demonize cholesterol ;)

[@toddrandall473]

It has long been established that when diet and disease correlations for different populations are compared, diets rich in fat and animal protein (like the Paleo Diet) correlate strongly with higher rates of heart disease and cancers of the breast, colon, and prostrate, to name only a few.

[@BSDIWeb]

Todd - actually this has *not* been long established (or established at all). First, the actual evidence for an association between diet and any cancer is surprisingly sparse and contradictory. Obesity - habitual overconsumption of calories - is the only thing that is consistently associated with cancer. The associations between fat and the cancers that you mention disappear once you factor in caloric excess. Lalonde pointed in this talk out that the belief in an association between saturated fat and heart disease has proven to be simply wrong.

[@toddrandall473]

Mark Brittingham There are numerous studies that show an association between diets rich in animal foods and negative health outcomes including cancer, hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and heart disease. The question is why? There is some evidence it may be linked to L-carnitine based on a study conducted in 2013 by Dariush Mozaffarian. Caldwell Essylstein has shown that removing all animal foods from severe cardiac patients completely reverses heart disease - none of these patients were asked to change their lifestyles in any other way. Collin Campbell has shown association between meat consumption and cancer, heart disease, etc. I agree association is not causation, but we have never shown causation between cigarette smoking and lung cancer. Yet, we believe cigarette smoking causes cancer. 1. Thorogood M, Mann J, Appleby P, McPherson K. Risk of death from cancer and ischaemic heart disease in meat and non-meat eaters. Br Med J. 1994;308:1667-1670. 2. Chang-Claude J, Frentzel-Beyme R, Eilber U. Mortality patterns of German vegetarians after 11 years of follow-up. Epidemiology. 1992;3:395-401. 3. Chang-Claude J, Frentzel-Beyme R. Dietary and lifestyle determinants of mortality among German vegetarians. Int J Epidemiol. 1993;22:228-236. 4. Barnard ND, Nicholson A, Howard JL. The medical costs attributable to meat consumption. Prev Med. 1995;24:646-655. 5. World Cancer Research Fund. Food, nutrition, physical activity, and the prevention of cancer: A global perspective. American Institute of Cancer Research. Washington, DC:2007. 6. Skog KI, Johansson MAE, Jagerstad MI. Carcinogenic heterocyclic amines in model systems and cooked foods: a review on formation, occurrence, and intake. Food and Chem Toxicol. 1998;36:879-896. 7. Robbana-Barnat S, Rabache M, Rialland E, Fradin J. Heterocyclic amines: occurrence and prevention in cooked food. Environ Health Perspect. 1996;104:280-288. 8. Thiebaud HP, Knize MG, Kuzmicky PA, Hsieh DP, Felton JS. Airborne mutagens produced by frying beef, pork, and a soy-based food. Food Chem Toxicol. 1995;33(10):821-828. 9. Sinha R, Rothman N, Brown ED, et al. High concentrations of the carcinogen 2-amino-1-methyl-6-phenylimidazo-[4,5] pyridine [PhlP] occur in chicken but are dependent on the cooking method. Cancer Res. 1995;55:4516-4519. 10. Jagerstad M, Skog K, Grivas S, Olsson K. Formation of heterocyclic amines using model systems. Mutat Res. 1991;259(3-4):219-233. 11. Murtaugh MA, Ma KN, Sweeney C, Caan BJ, Slattery ML. Meat Consumption patterns and preparation, genetic variants of metabolic enzymes, and their association with rectal cancer in men and women. J Nutr. 2004;134(4):776-784. 12. Norat T, Riboli E. Meat consumption and colorectal cancer: a review of epidemiologic evidence. Nutr Rev. 2001;59(2):37-47. 13. Armstrong B, Doll R. Environmental factors and cancer incidence and mortality in different countries, with special reference to dietary practices. Int J Cancer. 1975;15:617-631. 14. Carroll KK, Braden LM. Dietary fat and mammary carcinogenesis. Nutrition and Cancer. 1985;6:254-259. 15. Rose DP, Boyar AP, Wynder EL. International comparisons of mortality rates for cancer of the breast, ovary, prostate, and colon, and per capita food consumption. Cancer. 1986;58:2363-2371. 16. Lands WEM, Hamazaki T, Yamazaki K, et al. Changing dietary patterns. Am J Clin Nutr. 1990;51:991-993. 17. Hirayama T. Epidemiology of breast cancer with special reference to the role of diet. Prev Med. 1978;7:173-195. 18. Sang-Ah Lee, Xiao-Ou Shu, Honglan Li, et. al., Adolescent and adult soy food intake and breast cancer risk: results from the Shanghai Women's Health Study. Am J Clin Nutr. 2009; 89: 1920-1926. 19. Dorgan JF, Hunsberger SA, McMahon RP, et al. Diet and sex hormones in girls: findings from a randomized controlled clinical trial. J Natl Cancer Inst. 2003;95:132-141. 20. Cho E, Spiegelman D, Hunter DJ, et al. Premenopausal fat intake and risk of breast cancer. J Natl Cancer Inst. 2003;95:1079-1085. 21. Boyd NF, Stone J, Vogt KN, Connelly BS, Martin LJ, Minkin S. Dietary fat and breast cancer risk revisited: a meta-analysis of the published literature. Br J Cancer. 2003;89(9):1672-1685. 22. De Stefani E, Ronco A, Mendilaharsu M, Guidobono M, Deneo-Pellegrini H. Meat intake, heterocyclic amines, and risk of breast cancer: a case-control study in Uruguay. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 1997;6(8):573-581. 23. Matos EL, Thomas DB, Sobel N, Vuoto D. Breast cancer in Argentina: case-control study with special reference to meat eating habits. Neoplasma. 1991;38(3):357-366. 24. Snyderwine EG. Some perspectives on the nutritional aspects of breast cancer research. Food-derived heterocyclic amines as etiologic agents in human mammary cancer. Cancer. 1994;74(3 suppl):1070-1077. 25. Singh PN, Fraser GE. Dietary risk factors for colon cancer in a low-risk population. Am J Epidemiol. 1998;148(8):761-74. 26. Giovannucci E, Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA, Ascherio A, Willett WC. Intake of fat, meat, and fiber in relation to risk of colon cancer in men. Cancer Res. 1994;54(9):2390-2397. 27. Willett WC, Stampfer MJ, Colditz GA, Rosner BA, Speizer FE. Relation of meat, fat, and fiber intake to the risk of colon cancer in a prospective study among women. N Engl J Med. 1990;323:1664-1672. 28. Chao A, Thun MJ, Connell CJ, et al. Meat consumption and risk of colorectal cancer. JAMA. 2005;293:172-82. 29. Fraser GE. Associations between diet and cancer, ischemic heart disease, and all-cause mortality in non-Hispanic white California Seventh-day Adventists. Am J Clin Nutr. 1999;70(suppl):532S-538S. 30. Butler LM, Sinha R, Millikan RC, Martin CF, Newman B, Gammon MD, Ammerman AS, Sandler RS. Heterocyclic amines, meat intake, and association with colon cancer in a population-based study. Am J Epidemiol. 2003;157(5):434-445. 31. Siegel RL, Jemal A, Ward EM. Increase in incidence of colorectal cancer among young men and women in the United States. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2009;18:1695-1698. 32. Gann PH, Hennekens CH, Sacks FM, Grodstein F, Giovannucci EL, Stampfer MJ. Prospective study of plasma fatty acids and risk of prostate cancer. J Natl Cancer Inst. 1994;86(4):281-286. 33. Giovannucci E, Rimm EB, Colditz GA, Stampfer MJ, Ascherio A, Chute CC, Willett WC. A prospective study of dietary fat and risk of prostate cancer. J Natl Cancer Inst. 1993;85(19):1571-1579. 34. Kolonel LN. Nutrition and prostate cancer. Cancer Causes Control. 1996;7(1):83-44. 35. Ma RW, Chapman K. A systematic review of the effect of diet in prostate cancer prevention and treatment. J Hum Nutr Diet. 2009;22(3):187-1899; quiz 200-202. Epub 2009 Apr 1. 36. Dolwick Grieb SM, Theis RP, et al. Food groups and renal cell carcinoma: results from a case-control study. J Am Diet Assoc. 2009;109:656-667. 37. Thiébaut ACM, Jia L, Silverman DT, et al. Dietary fatty acids and pancreatic cancer in the NIH-AARP Diet and Health Study. J Natl Cancer Inst. 2009;101:1001-1011. 38. Key TJ, Appleby PN, Spencer EA, et. al. Cancer incidence in British vegetarians. British Journal of Cancer. 2009;101:192-197. 39. Phillips RL. Role of lifestyle and dietary habits in risk of cancer among Seventh-day Adventists. Cancer Res. 1975;35(suppl):3513-3522.

[@joeschmo5699]

Todd Randall That's an impressive list of studies that correlate meat consumption with cancer. It seems to be less impressive in the correlation with heart disease. In fact, I don't really see one. What is interesting to me is that heart disease didn't really exist before the 20th century. But cancer certainly did. I'm still inclined to think that the high incidence of cancer in modern humans is more a product of a highly processed agricultural and industrialized diet, in general, rather than just overconsumption of meat, specifically. Part of what makes us human is the processing of food. Within the context of our evolutionary history that was always an advantage to us because processing helped in nutrition density, complexity and absorption as our diet changed from that of mostly fruit to one that had increasingly more meat and vegetables (tubers). We sliced up meat with sharp cutting tools and pounded the tubers with rocks. Eating meat caused our brain to get ever larger and, in combination with pounding vegetables, our teeth got smaller and our guts got smaller (than our plant eating quadrupedal hominid relatives). The human body is the result of about 3 million years of ever increasing food processing. But I think the shit really hit the fan in the 20th century. We just got too good at it. Now the processing strips food of nutrients and introduces all sorts of unnatural chemicals and toxins into the remaining substances. Highly processed meats such as sausages and salami as well as cooking oils are all things I would look at as carcinogenic. How the meat is actually raised is another thing to consider. Grazing animals are supposed to eat grass, not selectively bred or genetically modified grains originally intended an designed for human consumption. The whole thing is fucked up. It probably is wise to avoid it altogether. But that's just because of 20th century industrial practices. Not because it was always bad for us. It just doesn't make sense that something we ate as a major part of our diet for more than 2 million years and helped us grow a big brain is fundamentally bad for us. It makes no sense at all. As an afterthought, one question I would ask is: why are so many 20th century humans quick to point to meat and animal product as the source of disease, or what we affectionately call "diseases of civilization?" I would argue it is because we are uncomfortable with the idea that we are (were) brutal meat eaters with a savage and primitive past. Modern, civilized, 20th century humans have become ever more disconnected with the natural, hunter-gather existence we originated from. It is a quasi revisionist motivation, perhaps with noble intentions, but the zealotry and ulterior motive is conducive to all sorts of misinformation, deception and plain BS.

[@BSDIWeb]

Todd - Notice a few things about your list: nearly all of the references are either quite old or are related to T. Colin Campbell's China Study. In much the same way that these studies "proved" that animal foods were unhealthy, study after study "verified" that low-fat diets were best for weight loss - until the overwhelming weight of *better* evidence brought that house crashing down. For some reason, nutrition research seems to bring out the worst in scientists as they attempt to "prove" that their beliefs about how to eat are best. With that being said, it does appear that some specific cancers are associated with the consumption of processed meats. But by even simpler, more direct evidence, it is clear that diets that include no animal products are even more hazardous unless planned with extreme care. You simply don't hear stories of hair and tooth loss, severe B12 deficiencies, etc. etc. among young omnivores who should be at the peak of health. In contrast, these stories are legion among young vegans and vegetarians. THIS is the 800 lb gorilla in the room. Indeed, if you *want* to go vegetarian or vegan, you have to specifically and consciously make up for the loss of micronutrients that animal foods provide in robust quantities. As far as Campbell goes - this is the mother lode of bad evidence. There are few researchers who have so brazenly tortured their evidence to reach their desired conclusions. Fortunately, Campbell was kind enough to publish his actual data. This led, of course, to Denise Minger's epic takedown of the China Study that any honest person simply must read before asserting that animal products are uniquely bad for human consumption: rawfoodsos.com/2011/07/31/one-year-later-the-china-study-revisited-and-re-bashed/

[@davidhutchinson6377]

Mark Brittingham Nice try, but clueless. A plant based approach to nutrition has been shown, hands down to be the best diet out there. No question. The data is IN. Sorry to bust your bubble there....but you cite Denise Minger's "epic" takedown? Seriously? She did nothing but reinforce my belief thank you very much. An English major is now an expert in nutrition? Your crew (the paleo crowd et al) will look for any excuse to make your bad habits sounds good and acceptable.

[@EzequielSchwartzman]

But he's dividing by the amount of water in the food, it's nonsense.

[@wholefoodplantlife]

Look at the video again, listen and watch, on his chart avocados have a negative number due to his essential nutrient criteria, do you even understand how this was formulated? Fiber non-essential on it own yes. The only source of fiber is plant foods, so you are implying that eating plant foods is non-essential? Listen again about the water comment, the speaker used that, I'm just pointing out why its a nutrients concentration study, not nutrient density. No cause just critique.

[@howzaou812]

This was absolutely my favorite talk by far...Love how he squashed that nagging kid....NEXT QUESTION...hahaha. Loved the nutrient breakdown, although not perfect he used the best that was available. Great job!

[@droidekka2]

somebody ( or a genius like me ) should make a nutrient per average serving scale, the only thing to deal with here would probably be the subjectivity of a portion. Oh, and 29years of collecting data.

[@1123notae]

I'm in the video 80/10/10 Proof. Not a single fatty in that video (excluding Chris Randall, who's still chubby because he was obese to start with).

[@tedoymisojos]

In the great fat debate slide, if you onkly read a little bit further down, it says saturated fat is no better or worse than the average background diet, wich means saturated fat isnt any better or worse than SAD diet. Thats still not good. XD But anyway, great presentation. Stuff to consider. Maybe my vegetarian legume and grain rich diet.. isnt that great, even though I have veggies and fruits as well. Im glad Fuhrman was adressed, because I held his pyramid as the pinnacle of pyramids XD

[@pi-r-squared517]

28:00 Couscous IS cooked durum wheat (semolina), so in fact you do have data on cooked wheat.