Measurements, what does it means to sound? What doesn't it mean to music is what we should be asking

George Taylor of Entracte Audio of Markham, Ontario, Canada and I were talking about what measurements really means to the music performance. We have decided to explore a couple of the typical publish measurements and explain out point of view and why it really means very little to nothing to the final result of music.
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[@dougg1075]

That is probably the best argument I’ve ever heard on this topic, and it makes complete sense

[@r423sdex]

Is it ! I thought it was nonsense.

[@tweakerman]

When I build cables, I never measure them, I use my ears to see how good they sound, I trust my ears, great video guys👍

[@curioustraveler1390]

I love it! It can tell you how not wrong you are but not how right you are. That can apply to so many other things in life!

[@angela-gilbert]

Many things in life are about point of reference. Not right is not wrong, and not wrong isn't right neither. All depends on point of view. Measurements aren't absolute. Unless the person is insisting on looking from one narrow point of view. OR define the reference point before presenting the result (measurements) then it can be absolute... to a degree.

[@curioustraveler1390]

@@angela-gilbert Thank you for your insights and perspective!

[@MrMersh-ts7jl]

I think it's a solid baseline to work with. I personally use ab HP 8903 to test at various frequencies, amplitude etc. But at the end of the day, my ears do the testing. I've had tube amps that have 3% the and sounds great. It's the right harmonics at the right time. I wish I could come up with an active impedance load just to play around. The ear is the best test instrument out there!

[@offrande1148]

Great video discussing the limitations of these "non-informational" measurements. Thank you..!

[@georgetaylor3107]

In case it wasn't stated clearly enough in the video... baseline measurements are definitely employed in the development of all Angela-Gilbert audio equipment. It's important to know how components are behaving in an electrical sense. But in trying to analyze sound "quality", current measurement techniques fall way short of the mark. It's like trying to measure how good a steak tastes. Sure, you can measure the outer dimensions of the meat, and maybe even judge its fat content, but you don't know who is going to cook it, how it's going to be cooked, what seasonings will be used, etc... Using a few isolated measurements out of context is simply no way to predict the behaviour of an audio component when it is given the task of playing music as opposed to being tested under a fixed load with a simple input test signal. We all need to keep in mind that the measurements of watts per channel, total harmonic distortion, and frequency response were developed as marketing tools in the 70's to sell receivers to the public. We are not anti-measurement, we just don't like the way measurements are sometimes used to justify, rationalize, or mislead.

[@redrobbosworkshop]

Of course measurements matter, just not when considered in a vacuum. Single measurements cannot depict the sounds of an amplifier or speaker, but a full suite of measurements can. You should also not confuse frequency response with frequency range - they are very different. Example: an RIAA phono stage will often have deviations from flat of several dB, and you'd have to be pretty deaf not to hear those.

[@Zockopa]

This guys think measurement technology is still in the sixties.

[@slutbecky7519]

Just found you two ! Thanks so much for talking sense. Less is more. A straight wire with gain indeed!

[@HP_____]

What does "a straight wire with gain" take you? It only tells you reproducing the signal faithfully which is the recording itself that you had no control over.

[@BadMonkeyFinger_Audio]

The fact that the third party's frequency response measurements didn't change when using the preamp's controls is really interesting, and demonstrates a bigger picture.

[@Coneman3]

Measurements and listening tests both have strengths and weaknesses. I don’t believe everything that can be measured counts, and probably not everything that counts can be measured.

[@angela-gilbert]

That's a very good way to put it.

[@lm74829]

Been to your place and listened to the pre-amp - very nice sound and boy does that C312 trigger wanting to „play“ around with the settings - so what do I care about measurements !

[@georgetaylor3107]

Glad that enjoyed the C312 during your visit! The whole point of that preamp is to play and adjust until you find your own "sweet spot". Interestingly enough, there is a review upcoming from SoundStage - it should be going live on or around November 1st. I don't want to jump the gun on the review, but I'm pretty sure that the review will have some interesting comments about the adjustable gain stages in the C312 and measurements that they took. But measurements can really only tell you something about how a preamplifier or amplifier work, not how they sound.

[@HP_____]

"Measurements can tell you when something is wrong, but they cannot tell you when something is right." -Kazutoshi Yamada of Zanden Audio

[@angela-gilbert]

Absolutely correct.

[@jlhsiao]

I agree that measurements can only tell if a piece of equipment is "not wrong", which is still meaningful and important, to some degree. The problem is that there are manufacturers now make it their sole goal to chase better measurements, and reviewers/consumers that trust the numbers more than their own ears.

[@angela-gilbert]

That's the good way to put it. "Not Wrong" is certainly important. It gives a clear "ok" to go further. However, as you have said it, people are using numbers alone and not trusting their own ears and brain anymore. That is not right.

[@unicornslayer6963]

What a great video. Imo the measurements that really matters is in/out impedance and gain. Usually not specified, and dealers dont know.

[@danielesbordone1871]

Dan D'Agostino has always said the best measuring amps are not necessarily the ones that sound better. This is probably true for everything.

[@angela-gilbert]

That is an indirect way to say measurement can't tell whether the amp sound good or not.

[@Error2username]

I am not happy, i need to learn more. Is the best frase i heard in years❤

[@JC.LC.]

You guys bring up some very good, valid points.

[@angela-gilbert]

We are trying to bring out points which not many has discussed before. Hope to start some constructive conversation.

[@reestyfarts]

Japanese amps may have broader ranges than 20hz-20khz. My Japanese speakers go to 40khz.

[@bernardchesneau3091]

Angela Gilbert use the same principles as Jean Hiraga who was quite the figure in France's high end audio in the 80's. Huge capacitance in power supplies!

[@angela-gilbert]

Back in the 80s the defination of huge capacitance was around 500,000uF range. With capacitor technology improved over the 30+ years. Huge today is around 10,000,000uF or 10 million micro Farads. I have built power supply for power amp with capacitance up to 100 Farads.

[@bernardchesneau3091]

Thanks for your quick reply. The Jean Hiraga battery powered phono preamp had 6 times 470,000 Micro farads plus 2 one farad caps on top of that back in the day to drive gain through only 2 transistors (one per channel. That is almost 5 farads in total. This was the best phono preamp that I ever had, the dynamics had no equal at any price. Jean Hiraga was of Japanese origin and he loved high efficiency big horn loaded systems found in customised rooms in Japan where passionate DIYer built incredible systems with 108 db sensitivity fed by ultra high capacitance electronics using Jean Hiraga's circuit designs.@@angela-gilbert

[@FranzVonFitzenstrahl]

Thanks for this video. We have to stay strong against the measurement people. Reading the comments at audio scene review is like returning to the middleages. This is actually people with strong opinions who never heard the stuff they are measureing. Flat earth?

[@angela-gilbert]

Take a look at this product review. It is one of my preamp C312. The reviewer hears the difference when he adjusts the knobs. However, they are having trouble to measure any difference. This is a prove of measurements cannot tell us everything. In fact, tell us very little. www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/equipment-menu/1211-angela-gilbert-yeung-c312-preamplifier?fbclid=IwAR3tH-SnrVNcR2NtQrQqPY8t47Fb50adAO-9OId2fN8eIuXDDG4vETSNu3U

[@draggonit6986]

I would be very interested in hearing reviews from your fellow Canadian HiFi reviewers or others.

[@angela-gilbert]

One of the "official" reviews of the preamp should be published by the end of this year. Official meaning it is from a e-magazine. There are many comments on social media about the preamp and other of our models which has similar adjustment.

[@davidcross890]

So so many manufacturers including several ultra high end equipment manufacturers are very fortunate that most audio enthusiasts and "industry specialists" and influencers simply lack quality knowledge of what actually matters in delivering a world class reproduction experience and worse yet are petrified to be shown for their genuine lack of appropriate knowledge. Ultra high end audio truly done right is in reality beyond many advanced sciences. Most barely design slightly better than an enhanced clock radio.

[@automationtraveler]

Good talk

[@Taikostuff]

A question about the preamp adjustments. Are they adjustments for negative feedback and even and odd order harmonics? Or i suspect with more nuance. Either way it seems very interesting, i mean i like some elements of the sound of tubes but not the practicality of them.

[@angela-gilbert]

Not adjusting negative feedback. Partially correct when you say adjusting even and odd harmonics. Because we are injecting simulated tube sound into the signal path. However, there is no tube inside the preamp, so it is not completely correct. If you are in the Toronto area, feel free to visit Entracte Audio and have a listen.

[@Taikostuff]

@@angela-gilbert Thanks for the clarification, i live in Europe but i wouldn't mind a listen if i'm ever in the area!

[@angela-gilbert]

@@Taikostuff If you are in the Toronto area, make sure to drop by. Other models that has similar adjustments are i810 integrated amp, C318 preamp. Both of which has actual tube(s) inside. i810 has 6SN7. C318 has both the 6SN7 and 6922 for adjustment in additional of the solid-state path.

[@Taikostuff]

@@angela-gilbert i do love the 6SN7 though, easily my favorite signal tube. Have a nice day!

[@scottlowell493]

My first foray into "WPC" and the 1khz nonsense: I had a denon receiver. It boasted "180 wpc!" But the fine print read: 2 channels (not 5) driven 1khz 10% THD. It was obvious that this thing could NOT drive my speakers. Real world? Maybe 30wpc, and that's generous. I got a modest 100wpc amp, and the power to drive was vastly superior. The 100 watt amp was measured 20hz-20khz

[@AbsoluteFidelity]

An amp is supposed to do what it needs to do; recieve, amplify and spit with minimal corruption from harmonic distortion and noise. Adding noise and HD might sound better the human brain, it is not accurate. Remember that we are trying to reproduce the signal here as faithfully as we can, the truest essence and meaning of high fidelity, and not trying to emulate real life. How real life it sound depends on the track and the data embedded in it. It has been proven that noise and HD can and will give you a false sense of depth, make vocals sound warmer and lush, giving the high frequencies a softer edge, etc and many poeple like that. That is MY fidelity, certainly a 180 from high fidelity. Both is fine, depends on what you want. Frequency response is just a part of the parcel, all other data has to be taken into account to even understand and know how it would sound like. Anyone that takes FR alone like bible is a fool.

[@amb3cog]

Who says this? Where? When? Why? Who is the arbiter of these things? In what book is this written? My friend this is YOUR idea of what an amp is supposed to do. It's certainly not mine. I buy gear to make my music sound great. I want to be entertained. You even admit that adding color can make it sound better. In that case. I want more color, not less. This complete fallacy that an amp is only supposed to be a straight wire with gain is nothing but a choice made by some of you. Not all of us, and certainly not the majority of us. Feel free to speak for yourself. But please don't go around as if you're speaking for everyone. That's a straight up lie. Period! And it's completely self serving lie too. You do you. I'll do me. And Joey down the road can do Joey. We all have our own wants, and needs. That's why we have so many choices. The idea that an amp is not right because it doesn't suit your style says a lot more about you, than it does the amp. And what it says isn't nice. That's for sure. There's a whole entire world of beautiful people that all have different tastes, desires, wants, needs, etc. Embrace these facts, or suffer at your own hands. It's your choice. You're going to drive yourself crazy trying to force that square peg into that round hole if you choose the former though. Just saying. And I'm sorry for being so harsh, but this nonsense just never goes away. And it's because people entertain the idea a bit. And that's too much. Ideas like this should be tossed aside immediately. Because they're nonsensical to the extreme. And I feel like a harsh rebuke is needed. You all argue this point as if it's a HiFi thing. It's not. It's a human nature thing. It's normal human intolerance. It's more about a lack of self awareness than anything else. I can't make this clear enough I feel. This is only how you think an amp should be. It's got nothing to do with anything else other than you wanting your needs fulfilled. And that's all. It's selfishness times ten. You'll never see other people complaining about a straight wire with gain sound the way you guys complain about colored sound. It may not be for them. But they won't say it's designed wrong. Yet maybe it really is. If I were to look at it only from my own lense it is. It's a door stop to me. It's useless. But I don't begrudge anyone else for liking it. I don't come on here, and try to lecture them on their flaws for doing so. And neither do others. But there's absolutely no end to you type of people who think we are all looking for the same thing for some silly reason. When we're clearly not. Please take your head out of your rear end, and stop this utter nonsense. Please. 🤦‍♂️ ✌️

[@HP_____]

Measurements are very important. But what if I don't WANT "high fidelity"? I want high felicity and I can use measurement to get close to what I want. You want to reproduce the signal faithfully and I don't but we both can rely on measurements to achieve our goals.

[@r423sdex]

Why worry about it ? Let it go.

[@angela-gilbert]

We are not worried about it that's why we did the video. Stating our point and then we walk away.

[@davidcross890]

Runawaybride2765 is quite possibly offended that his never ending less than mediocrity way of acceptance would be challenged and overcome if REAL TESTS WERE INSTITUTED TO SHOW MANY MORE OF THE FAILURES OF HOW EQUIPMENT EVEN AT THE ULTRA HIGH END IS SO INFERIORLY DESIGNED AND BUILT.

[@Ricky-cl5bu]

Measurements don’t mean they’ll sound good in every room

[@angela-gilbert]

You are absolutely correct.

[@patrickmeylemans9627]

Why are you guys afraid of measurements? If you dont’t believe in it then ignore it. The throne of expensive high end is melting down. But never mind you ahev golden ears.

[@angela-gilbert]

Did we said we are afraid of measurement? Where did we say that? We were only saying measurements can only tell us to a certain point. After that it is listening and opinion. Measurement can tell us what is wrong. There is not enough measurement out there that can tell us what is right. In fact, when I do design, I measure a lot. However, I don't blindly believe in measurements.

[@patrickmeylemans9627]

@@angela-gilbert Must be my interpretation after the initial part of the clip, it is giving me the idea you were mocking with measurements. Before I buy somethings I first look if there are measurements done by audiosciensereview by example. When an amp or DAC is measuring very poor I will not gun for it. But hearing is believing, sometimes we do blind testing and the results are sometimes not what one is expecting. You got a point that if it is measuring good is no guarantee that is will sound good or good for your liking. After all good sound is subjective for us all...

[@angela-gilbert]

@@patrickmeylemans9627 I haven't been out there looking for measurements of other products. I have to assume most audio products these days are measure "good enough". I don't base my final sonic performance based on measurements. Because if it measures the same, it can still sound different. Here is the set of measurements from Soundstage for one of our preamp. It proves my point that we don't have enough knowledge of measurement to determine the final sonic signature and quality. www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2963:angela-gilbert-yeung-c312-preamplifier&catid=433:preamplifier-measurements&Itemid=142

[@patrickmeylemans9627]

What is just the proof you are talking about? For me, if it measures bad I don´t bother to do a listening test, if it measures good than a listening test is mandatory before purchasing the item. But this is just my 2 cents. It must be my rather technical backgroud ;-)

[@angela-gilbert]

@@patrickmeylemans9627 If you look at the same of measurements Soundstage has done with the C312 preamp. They can hear the differences when adjusting the knobs, but they can't measure any difference between different settings. What you said make sense. Measures bad, don't waste your time. Measures good, give it a chance and audition if possible.

[@stevenburdick424]

1 watt at 1 meter

[@freeradical6390]

Flat looks great on paper, but dead flat speakers just sound dead. Great vid!! Thanku!

[@AbsoluteFidelity]

Total nonsense. A flat anechoic measuring speaker doesnt sound dead in room. That is the biggest myth ever.