Mecca was never on any Trade Route - Surprised?

In the 20th century Muslims scholars, along with Western Orientalists had a problem explaining how Mecca got its wealth, since it is in such an arid place, and off the 'beaten tract' from everywhere important. How could such a backward city become important and then be the basis for the subsequent Islamic Empires of the Umayyads and the Abbasids?
This dilemma was supposedly solved by Dr Montgomery Watt, a Christian Clergyman, who was also a well known Orientalist Scholar.
He suggested that due to the wars between the Sassanian (Persian) and the Byzantine (Christian) empires in the 5th - 7th centuries, the trade route which normally went through the Persian Gulf was shut down, and had to be redirected south, across the Arabian Sea, to the city of Aden (in what is today Yemen), where the goods were taken off the ships and were transported overland by camels 1250 miles up via the Western Plateau of Arabia to Gaza in the north.
This was a real coup for Watt who was feted with finally solving the problem of Mecca's importance, since he suggested that Mecca controlled that trade, and that is where the city made its wealth, and thus could be the basis for the subsequent Muslim empires.
At then end of the last century, Dr Patricia Crone, a leading scholar on the Middle East, looked at a map and immediately saw problems with this theory, which no one seemed to have noticed before.
To begin with, Mecca, she said, was not situated correctly to be on a trade route which followed the Western plateau, because it sits to the west of the plateau, and in fact over 1,000 meters below the plateau. In order for the camel caravans to pass through Mecca, they would have to leave the plateau at Taif, and head down 1,000 meters to Mecca, which was barren, with very little water, and thus could not have accommodated caravans of large herds of camels.
What's more they would then have to go back up over 1,000 meters to get up to Yathrib, which was also on the plateau. Why would caravans come down off the plateau to a city which could not have accommodated their camels, knowing that they would then have to climb back up the 1,000 meters to get to Yathrib?
But more troubling was the suggestion by Watt that having already crossed the Arabian Sea on boat, they would then take off all their goods at Aden, and then head up the Arabian peninsula, to Gaza, which was over 1250 miles away.
Why, Crone asked, didn't they just continue to keep the goods on the ships and float freely up the Red Sea? She found that taking a ton of goods only 50 miles by land would cost the same amount as taking that same ton of goods 1250 miles by Sea! It would have been prohibitively expensive to take their goods by land.
So, she decided to check out her theory. She could read and write 15 archaic languages, and so was able to go to the original documents from that era, and from those countries; and she found that all of the trade, from the 2nd century onward was all maritime (by Sea); that none of it went by land, and that there were no Arabs who controlled the sea trade. It was the Adalusians, from Eritrea, in Africa whose names were on the trading documents, and no Arab names, proving that the trade had more to do with Africa than Arabia.
In one fell swoop, she had debunked Dr Watt's trade Route theory, proving that Mecca had nothing to do with the trade at all.
So, then how did Mecca become famous and important and rich? Well, it never was, at least not in the 7th century or before. Mecca only became powerful and important once Islam was taken over by the Abbasids, who made it the center for their sanctuary, thus, after 749 AD, but that is over 100 years after Muhammad supposedly lived there, proving once again that Mecca was never in existence during Muhammad's lifetime, nor during the century in which he lived.
© Pfander Centre for Apologetics - US, 2021
(45,560) Music: 'happy child', by Aleksound, from Filmmusic-io

[@trinitymatrix9719]

Once u start to question and scrutinize islam, it completely falls apart like cardboard boxes

[@Talanttotel]

Just like most of the religions

[@donthomson10]

2 Samuel 6:23 Therefore *Michal the daughter of Saul had no children* to the day of her death. vs 2 Samuel 21:8 So the king took Armoni and Mephibosheth, the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bore to Saul, and *the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul,* whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite; Which one is it? *No Children or 5 Children?*

[@olive3186]

@@donthomson10 Those children where brought up by her but not from her flesh .

[@donthomson10]

@@olive3186 🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️

[@spoomftheimmortal4960]

@@donthomson10 you're quite slow it seems.. adoption is a forgein concept to islam afterall. Adoption is a thing in the bible promoted and encouraged as a wonderful act... unlike islam in which mohammed rebuked it claiming allah gave him a message convenient that before hand he had lusted over his ADOPTED SONS WIFE having seen this his son offered her to him and he refused.. optics ya know but god she must have been a looker cuz allah gave her to him anyway nice 🕳 ya got there... i'd as if you need a shovel but it seems you've dug it plenty deep.

[@unipod8433]

The trouble with the truth is it interferes with the narrative.

[@annemurphy9339]

Well said.

[@commentfreely5443]

the narrative today is not the same narrative from about 1200 years ago. 820 AD you probably couldn't find anyone who had heard of mecca, mohammad, quran or muslims.

[@unipod8433]

@@commentfreely5443 Yes a narrative can take us anywhere, while the truth can only take us home

[@seasonedapologist]

Always a privilege to have you on Dr. Jay. 🙂

[@Vankatraman]

It is true that Mecca was not on trade route. Bagdad or mesopotemia were connected by trade route. It is common knowledge that traders are shrewed people . They would always choose smart route . Hence you are correct .

[@fatboyslim6272]

Keep them coming and we'll be watching!

[@christismylordandgod]

And we're proud of thet!!!!!

[@donthomson10]

2 Samuel 24:9 Then Joab gave the sum of the number of the people to the king. And there were in Israel *eight hundred thousand* valiant men who drew the sword, and the men of Judah were *five hundred thousand* men. Vs 1 Chronicles 21:5 Then Joab gave the sum of the number of the people to David. All Israel had *one million one hundred thousand men* who drew the sword, and Judah had *four hundred and seventy thousand* men who drew the sword. Words of God 😆😆👍🏼👍🏼

[@christismylordandgod]

@@donthomson10 This discrepancy involves the difference in who was included in each report. In the report in 2 Samuel, the number of men of valor who drew the sword was 800,000, but did not include the standing army of 288,000 described in 1 Chronicles 27:1-15, or the 12,000 specifically attached to Jerusalem described in 2 Chronicles 1:14. Including these figures gives the grand total of 1,100,000 men of valor who composed the entire army of the men of Israel. The figure of 470,000 in 1 Chronicles 21 did not include the 30,000 men of the standing army of Judah mentioned in 2 Samuel 6:1. This is evident from the fact that the Chronicler points out that Joab did not complete the counting of the men of Judah (1 Chron. 21:6). Both calculations are correct according to the groups which were included and excluded from each report. Try again!!!! May Jesus Christ open your eyes and show you the truth

[@donthomson10]

@@christismylordandgod 2 Samuel 6:23 Therefore *Michal the daughter of Saul had no children* to the day of her death. vs 2 Samuel 21:8 So the king took Armoni and Mephibosheth, the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bore to Saul, and *the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul,* whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite; Which one is it? *No Children or 5 Children?* *or both calculation are correct?*

[@christismylordandgod]

@@donthomson10 this isn't a contradiction but a copyist error found in older Bible. It's not Michal that had kids but Merab her older sister. The proof can easily be found her: bib.irr.org/did-michal-have-children-or-not-2-samuel-623-and-218 I find it funny that you're trying to discredit a book that's has more manuscripts than any other book of the antiquities by thousands. Also all your false claim at contradiction have been petty verses having 0 impact on the theology of tge faith. I hope you're not a Muslim because I can easily drop contradictions by the ton from your book. Stop being the devil attacking God's word and go pray that he may open your eyes. May God have mercy on you

[@BasedYeeter42]

The standard narrative does indeed have holes in it. This is making me think and rethink everything I knew about it

[@muezamueza2797]

XX Lies made by polemicist About Mecca 1). Why Mecca is not in ancient records The main reason is because not all records from thousand years ago can survive to the present day. It is like asking where is the first edition of King James Bible now. We may not find it, but It doesn't mean that the first edition of the bible doesn't exist. Therefore, no proof doesn't always mean don't exist. The same thing happened with ancient record of Mecca, there are all not survive .... Ha ha ha. There is another reason, mecca is the outside area of Rome, Persia, or Sheba. Look at the ancient map which shows the Roman and Persian territory. qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9454a341ab2fec7fe4c541f4e2ba0494 Mecca (Quraysh territory) is far outside the territory of Roman and Persian empire and also there has never been a kingdom in Mecca. Mecca is on ancient trade route, but it is not a center of ancient trade. No wonder why the Romans and Persian have little knowledge about mecca. Mecca is also far outside of Assyrian empire. When Jay mention Assyrian visiting Yayhrib, he was taking non-sense ace9e421-a-9516f2f5-s-sites.googlegroups.com/a/syd.catholic.edu.au/boudica/year-11-ancient-history/assyria/introduction/Assyria%20Empire%20Map.gif? Ancient mecca is not as great as jay smith think, it is only a sanctified place. It is true that mumlim pray facing toward Kaaba in mecca, but Mecca has never been a big city like Damascus or Jerusalem or Kufa or Madina. Mecca has always been a modest city, people from all over the world gather only at a specific time (only one week ritual) of the year. 2). Mecca is not in Ancient Trade Route? Jay Smith in many of his videos made a bold statement that Mecca is not in Ancient Trade Route?. Oh... Really?.... Ha ha ha. You can find the ancient route of Arabia by googling the internet. Well some map includes mecca some don't. Here some ancient trade route created by people who understand history. Mecca is clearly in those map. He is one example an ancient trade of Ethiopia www.easterntravelandtour.com/blog/ancient-trade-route-of-ethiopia Here is another one Mecca before the rise of Roman Empire qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-272660ce5976ee580499f2f1a923c19d-c Here is another one ancient trade route A.D 570 one year before prophet Muhammad birth images.app.goo.gl/tVgxkP5yWBbr8wGJ7 Here is another one, Mecca on ancient Frankincense trade route images.app.goo.gl/T519b75Pw1sUkrqb6 Here is another one. Mecca on Silk Trade Route images.app.goo.gl/nRaKVdQyo5iXuPxu6 Halllo Mr. Smith where are you, why are you hidding from everybody .... ha ha ha. 3). Macoraba is Greek/Roman Name of Mecca Mecca is on 2nd century Ptolemy Map written as Macoraba. The name could be from Arabic name Makah Al Mukaramah, it is like Paris from Lutea Parisiorum. Macoraba from Mukaramah Paris from Parisiorum The old names can be completely different from the modern ones. Hafnia is now Copenhagen -> different word Argentoratum is now Strasbourg -> different word Briva Isara is now Pontoise Burdigala is now Bordeaux Divodurum ~> Metz Durocortorum ~> Reims Calleva Atrebatum ~> Silchester Camboglanna ~> Castlesteads Camborico ~> Lackford Camulodunum ~> Colchester Canonium ~> Kelvedon Caromago ~> Edinburg Castra Exploratorum ~> Netherby So it is also possible that Macoraba is now Mecca -> different word Any problem with my explanation Mr. Smith ... hahaha. 4). Mecca or Macoraba on the wrong positron Ptolemy map like many other ancient Maps are not accurate in depicting the position of cities, river and coastline. Also there are several version of Ptolemy map. Ian Moris and Jay Smith use this version of the Ptolemy map, which placed Macoraba north of the Betius river. www.iandavidmorris.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Ptolemy%E2%80%99s-map-Brill.jpg Here is another copy of a slightly different Ptolemy map. In this map Macoraba located south of the Betius River. www.wdl.org/en/item/2916/view/1/1/ Here is another copy of a slightly different Ptolemy map. In this map Macoraba also located south of Betius River, but the size of Persian gulf is smaller, just too small. So map used by Jay smith must be wrong. www.wdl.org/en/item/2923/view/1/1/ As you can see, when these maps compared to modern map, the coastline of the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea are all wrong. In one version of the map Gulf of Persian is much bigger than the present-day size, but together map the size of Persian Gulf is just too small. In the present-day map, the betius river just doesn't exist and all position of cities like Mecca, Taif, and Yathrib is all wrong. Like many other old maps, the Ptolemy map is very distorted but still recognisable. If Jay theorised about the wrong position of macoraba or mecca on the map as evidence that mecca doesn't exist, you should apply the same rule that London, Edinburg, and Dublin are non-existent because the position of these places on the old map of British Island are all wrong. cdn.mapmania.org/original/great_britain_and_ireland_1654_65441.jpg Old maps of the British Island are all highly distorted but they are still recognizable, but According to Jay's ways of thinking London, Edinburgh and Dublin just don't exist because they are on the wrong latitude and longitude....hahaha. 6). Mecca is on the 3rd Century Samaritan book Samaritans are decendant of Jewish people who remain in Palestine during Babylon's exile. The following is quotation from 3rd Century Samaritan book of Asatir “After the death of Abraham, Ishmael reigned for 27 years. All the sons of Nebaioth reigned for a year in the days of Ishmael, and then another 30 years after his death, from the river of Egypt to the river of the Euphrates, and they built Mecca; therefore it is said, “as you head toward Aššur…”. 6). It is wrong to say Abraham lives in Mecca Abraham was born in Ur, Mesopotamia (present day Iraq). He then moved 1770 km to Palestine and he lived there, mostly in Hebron and died there. After live in Hebron, he once travel 465 km west to Egypt and temporarily move 1483 Km south to mecca and he build Kaaba, he never permanently live in Mecca. The word live and visit have quite different meanings. I have visited London many times but It is wrong to say I live in London. Jay was wrong when saying Abraham destroy idol in Mecca. Abraham never destroy idol in Mecca, in destroy idol in Ur. pbs.twimg.com/media/D83JNU9WkAMM78t?format=jpg&name=900x900 7). Do not take tradition story seriosly In Ceylon, there is a mountain called Adam Peak. Christian and Islamic traditions assert that it is the footprint of Adam, left when first setting foot on Earth after having been cast out of paradise, giving it the name "Adam's Peak". It is supposed to be one of the most important places in the world. In reality today, only a monastery exists at this peak, surrounded by a forest, not a big city. Jay smith seem to believe the story, but I don't. encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTeW2k-8A_HOuOQBcZE4w7M_QwcerbfkfeRAA&usqp=CAU According to tradition Adam and Eve were meet at mount rahmah (mercy) ini Mecca. Although tradition say they met in Mecca, most Muslim do not take that particular tradition seriously. Only Jay Smith take the story very seriously.. Ha ha. So what is in the tradition and reality is different, not every Muslim believes this tradition is true, because how can Adam find his way from Ceylon to Mecca .... ha ha ha. but Jay Smith truly belief in it and make the tradition a central theme for attacking Mecca history that does not fit the reality to cast doubt about Islam and then spreading Christianity... Ha ha ha 8) Final Question Jay can you show us the true first edition of the King James Bible. If you cannot find the evidence, does it means that Bible does not exist. That Bible exist but it cannot survive to the present day. 9). Conclusion Since not all ancient records from thousand years ago can survive to the present day. Therefore, no proof doesn't always mean don't exist.

[@donthomson10]

*THIS IS HOLE & IT EMBARRASSING* 2 Samuel 6:23 Therefore *Michal the daughter of Saul had no children* to the day of her death. vs 2 Samuel 21:8 So the king took Armoni and Mephibosheth, the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bore to Saul, and *the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul,* whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite; Which one is it? *No Children or 5 Children?*

[@Zebred2001]

From at least the second millenium B.C. the Egyptians did trade down the Red Sea to Punt and points south. No mention of any place called Mecca.

[@josephrobi6806]

Thanks for educating us about that mad man and twisted teaching of Islam

[@BobJones-dq9mx]

jesus is also lunatic!

[@hdtharkii6649]

@@BobJones-dq9mx did jesus existed?? Sometimes I feel we are made by superbeings and they are always watching us, and we their toys making us confused in this religion shit.

[@bourhaneddine4104]

@@hdtharkii6649 I can' t refute the existence of Darwin.. The rest is up to your fantasies!!

[@bourhaneddine4104]

*Abraham never went to Mecca* ! How does it sound in plain Aramaic?!

[@donthomson10]

@@bourhaneddine4104 something like this Psalm 137:9 Happy is the one who *seizes your infants* and *dashes them against the rocks.*

[@_John_P]

Deconstructing Islam one jab at a time.

[@redleaf4902]

Or, in a more positive wording, "constructing" a narrative that is revealed by a study of any and all recorded information. Peter Von Sivers has a wonderful lecture on Islamic origins, which, like Patricia Crone, delves into historical documents. In Von Sivers' case, there is a delving into the history of two Empires, whose borders form a 'north-south' line, way up in the north-east part of the Arabian Peninsula. I don't think we need be on a "let's destroy Islam" mission, so much as we need to be willing to "discover" the actual history of tugs of war up in the north, between the West & East Empires. In this regard, exegesis of Koranic writings can yield information, as opposed to misinformation.

[@_John_P]

@@redleaf4902 Islam is not a religion, it's a form of government that is imposed on others by death threats that are acted upon.

[@rockcrusade3981]

Sir this is awesome. You are the teacher. Please keep explaining like this with presentations. God blesse you.

[@kafirlindaclark6148]

Mecca- if you build it, they will come. The Sauds have cashed in on building Mecca.

[@Leejahstar]

mecca california

[@_John_P]

@@Leejahstar mecca bingo

[@piandaud4080]

The kaabah was build way before Jesus time and it was during Abraham time. Your point then?

[@passingby3460]

@@piandaud4080 And how do you know?

[@piandaud4080]

@@passingby3460 how you did not know?

[@rroyr5698]

Great stuff Jay, thanks again for the refresher!!! God Bless you Jay Smith and your ministry! The Evangelical.

[@keyazabin2308]

Keep exposing the lies Jay.

[@BobJones-dq9mx]

especially Cristian lies!

[@abrandpluckedoutofthefire8043]

@Bob Jones 😂

[@abrandpluckedoutofthefire8043]

Islam is not only a lie,it is a joke . Islam heaven is a porn heaven

[@keyazabin2308]

@@BobJones-dq9mx can you please defend the topic that Jay is discussing instead of attacking Christianity

[@henkh63]

@@keyazabin2308 Don't ask; he wont. These dawahgandists never do. Besides, they know there is nothing to refute; dr. Jay Smith is spot-on

[@MAX-tw3qz]

All this knowledge and yet the greatest lie ever told remains as potent, venomous and toxic as ever. Inexcusable human ignorance, utterly inexcusable.

[@spoomftheimmortal4960]

They must be dealt with in the way they deal with others.

[@Jimmy_English]

Love this👍

[@wildernessofzinn17]

The good ones like Patricia Crone always leave us too early. We sure have Soros and Pelosi though. They're immortal.

[@indigatorveritatis7949]

It's the way of the fallen world. It seems the evil will always prevail. Psalm 37 and 73 address this

[@dadsonworldwide3238]

You all are and have done such great work i thank you for enlightening those that inquire truth and for how it pressures the hard heads in the west and around the world to fairly and rigorously critique history. If it just forces western acedemia to start teaching truth rather than to hate our ancestry

[@kaneinkansas]

Jay, what your ten year old son doesn’t realize is that the prevailing winds over the Red Sea come out of the north 12 months of the year from just above Jeddah to the Mediterranean Sea. For 6 months of the year (summer time) they come out of the South but only as far a Jeddah. So trade would go by water as far as Jedda then it would have to move inland. Mecca lies on the route from Jeddah up to the north-south route that travels along the high ridge and it had a well for water. During the winter the prevailing wind comes out of the north for the entire length of the Red Sea making it difficult to take the water route north at all, so then trade would go by land (facilitated by cooler te pastures, no doubt). Also your son wouldn’t realize that the Red Sea, then as now, was subject to piracy. The reason for traveling overland is the territories are controlled by Bedouin tribes. For trade to take place, the organizer of the trade has to make deals with all of these tribes in order to get permission to pass thru those lands and use their wells along that route. Mecca got control of the North South trade because they were able to work out a kind of ersatz contractual relationship with these tribes to allow their caravans to pass through unmolested. The Kabah which was built into a real structure only in Mohammed’s youth, housed (was custodian) of each of these bedouin tribe’s idols (or tribal deities). The housing of those deities in the Kabah was then, in a pre-literate age, a symbol of a contract that existed with all between all of these different Bedouin tribes and the Meccans (or what functioned as the Mecca Chamber of Commerce). Further, by being pagan, the Meccans were neutral to both the Sassanians who controlled Yemen (conquered it from the Ethiopians) at the time of Mohammed, and neutral to the Byzantines who were Christian. Mohammed’s preaching against paganism to visiting bedouins thus brought out hostility upon him by the Meccans who saw this as undermining the established arrangements necessary to control this lucrative trade. Now, it may very well be that Mecca was really Petra, but these other facts still hold. The Red Sea to this day has prevailing winds out of the North. Yemen was controled by Zoroastrian Persians and Palestine by Byzantine Christians. Interestingly, the Latine sail was invented in Arabia about the time of Mohammed, which would have permitted sailing against the prevailing wind up the Red Sea to the gulf of Aqaba.

[@lahleholivia7398]

What they dont appear to understand is these conclusions are made from islamic writings.

[@Piccodon]

There should be a neat line of caravan serais every 40 miles or so, as camels cannot go very far without food, water and rest. The only thing I could think of stopping ships going up the red sea would be pirates.

[@19683]

Arabs sailed to what is now Kerala, one of the world's oldest mosques is in Kerala, features in Gibson's work too.

[@engineerjpc3200]

is it possible to have pdf file for your presentation? thx

[@user-yz1dl3eu8l]

4:40 Baghdad is not Ctesiphon (Tisfun in Middle Persian)

[@Chandransingham]

Interesting but there is an intermediate port called Jeddah which is only about 50 miles to Mecca. Day or two on foot. Quicker by camel. Did Patricia Crone consider this? Tom Holland does constantly refers to her work in his book : In the Shadow of the Sword (2012). P Crone : 12 papers after M Watts 3 papers. Questions: Were there any archaeological finds in Jeddah? Any Roman records on Jeddah?

[@pfanderfilms]

Well spotted Sydney, but history tells us that Jeddah was always a fishing village, and had nothing to do with Mecca until very much later. According the archaeological studies, excavations in the old city of Jeddah suggest that it was founded as a fishing hamlet in 522 BC by the Yemeni Quda'a tribe (Arabic: بني قضاعة‎), who left central Yemen to settle there after the destruction of the Marib Dam in Yemen. Other archaeological studies have shown that the area was possibly settled even earlier by people in the Stone Age, as some Thamudi scripts were excavated in Wadi Briman (وادي بريمان), east of the city, and Wadi Boweb (وادي بويب), northwest of the city. Thus, the city of Jeddah was an important port in the Nabataean frankincense trade. The oldest Mashrabiya found in Jeddah dates back to the pre-Islamic era.

[@aaaabraham837]

YOU KNOW, when I ask any Xtian about Arabia and what does the religions (xtianity and Judaism) say...they don't know! Arabia was written off since the crusaders and bibles were edited to remove most of the vital information that could promote Islam but scholars, Muslim and Non-muslim are researching and comes up with remarkable information. EXAMPLE All the years Xtians were brainwashed that Mount Sinai was in Egypt and Muslims knew that Mt Sinai is in Arabia. The same example with Paran. That Jew, Avi Lipkin said the same and after he researched it wrote a book 'Return to Mecca' WHY? Because many Jewish tribes resided there ...Why so far from the promised land Jerusalem, Yes, they were persecutes, etc but Why Mecca and Medina and SO FAR according to evangelists xtians ...? Here is the video of Avi and his xtian interviewer again, watch it again and learn. kzbin.info/www/bejne/f4iTd6WdiMlrZs0 There are many archaeological sites there - most of the Jewish settlements are still there. Jews came to Arabia dates back to the time of the First Temple. Immigration to the Arabian Peninsula began in earnest in the 2nd century CE, and by the 6th and 7th centuries there was a considerable Jewish population in Hejaz, mostly in and around Medina. SO WHY MECCA AND MEDINA? because the KNEW the descendants of Abraham were there, not only the Ismaelites but Jews from the descendant of Isaac and Jacob...

[@davidmicheal4724]

@@aaaabraham837 Sorry Bro don't take it the hard way. Ur Sheikh Said there are HOLES IN THE STANDARD NARRATIVE..of Islamic sources. To settle this matter Abraham did nat build Pagan cube 🕋 in the middle of desert, neither is there any Jewish or Biblical reference to that 😄😅😂🤣🤣

[@Chandransingham]

@@aaaabraham837 Thanks. Interesting particularly Galatians 4/25 claimed as evidence. Arabia is divided into North, Middle and South. Sinai is in the northern part. It is wrong to push it to the middle of Arabia! How come? Muslims following old Jewish ways is not in dispute. Ramadan fasting as an example is drawn from an old Jewish practice. Some care is required please in the application of hermeneutics. Tom Holland also gives his own analysis about the confusion regarding Mecca in his book 'In the shadow of the sword (2012)' on page 363: "Muslim scholars, in their understandable efforts to identify Bakka with Mecca, went to great and often fantastical lengths to explain how a patriarch who, according to venerable tradition, had been promised Canaan by God, and not Arabia, might conceivably have ended up in Mecca." Dennis Avi Lipkin's 'Return to Mecca (2015)' was published after Tom Holland's 2012 book snd therefore should be carefully read.

[@aaaabraham837]

@@davidmicheal4724 Yes, the Pope said that Lucifer is lord...does that make him correct? Any Islamic source must be according to the Quran in order to be accpted. What makes you say that Abraham did not built the Kaaba - your corrupted bible don't even say that...ha ha ha LET ME SHOW YOU SOME REFERENCES from a Jewish History Prof and Rabbi kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5LCaoB4a7ppi5Y

[@trevwils6718]

Dr Smith, You say there was no water there but is there not the zam zam well? could this be why they dropped down? is there water on the plateau?

[@_John_P]

The zam zam well is located in Petra.

[@matthabir4837]

Dr Jay is a notable polemicist, not a notable historian or logician. You might be asking too much from him.

[@trevwils6718]

@mysotiras3 whats the well in Mecca called?

[@trevwils6718]

@@matthabir4837 I think it would be a common question that he has been asked before.

[@bourhaneddine4104]

@@_John_P -The zam zam well is located in Petra- So my uncle performed pilgrimage in Petra not Mecca!! I am learning every day!

[@indigatorveritatis7949]

Wait, you mean the ancient Arabs didn't care much about that dumpy little one-goat village? Say it isn't so

[@seal9390]

Hey buddy

[@indigatorveritatis7949]

@@seal9390 Hey 😎

[@bmw635csi]

👉🐍It is narrated on the authority of Ibn 'Umar ('Abdullah b. 'Umar) that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) observed: Verily Islam ☪️ started as something strange and it would again revert (to its old position) of being strange just as it started, and it would recede between the two mosques just as the serpent crawls back into its hole.🕌🐍🕌 Reference : Sahih Muslim 146

[@ashifhassan1148]

Academic books on Islamic history:- 1.The Preaching of Islam by Thomas Walker Arnold 2.The Hidden Debt to Islamic Civilisation by S.E. Al-Djazair 3.The Formation of Islam Religion and Society in the Near East, 600-1800 by Jonathan P. Berkey 4.The Matter of Araby in Medieval England by Dorothee Metlitzki 5.The Enterprise of Science in Islam: New Perspectives published by Cambridge: MIT Press 6. Science Among the Ottomans: The Cultural Creation and Exchange of Knowledge by Miri Shefer-Mossensohn 7.The Jews of Islam by Bernard Lewis Mark R. Conen 8.Jewish Life Under Islam Jerusalem in the Sixteenth Century by Amnon cohen 9. Science in Medieval Islam by Howard R. Turner 10.The Moriscos of Spain by Henry Charles Lea 11.A history of inquisition of spain by Henry Charles Lea 12.The Martyrs of cordoba by Jessica A. Coope 13.The history of the ottoman empire Osman's Dream by Caroline Finkel 14. Sephardic and mizrahi jewry edited by Zion Zuhar 15. The ornament of the world by Maria Rosa Menocal 16. Islam and the west by Norman Daniel 17. Britain and the Islamic World, 1558-1713 by Gerald Maclean 18. The influence of Islam on medieval europe by W.Montgomery Watt 19.Minorities in the Ottoman Empire, edited by Molly Greene 20.An Economic and Social History of the Ottoman Empire by Donald Quataert and Halil İnalcık 21. Slavery and Islam by Jonathan A.C. Brown 22.Salah ad-Deen al-Ayubi by Dr Ali.M sallabi 23.On Schacht's Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence by Muhammad Mustafa Azmi

[@merketarif126]

Ok, this means Mecca or Saudia Arabia was for the ancient world in the same situation like natives in Amazons for us now. In few years the natives would with knowledge (without internet) kick the US, China or Russia in the ass. What a miracle.

[@arthurfleck1554]

Piracy (somali pirates) could be the reason why the goods were transported by camel.

[@sirunikunushik7735]

We have Afghan neighbor. Their grandfather believes Arabic is the root of all the languages.

[@lunassr7212]

The creatur Al Qur'an is Egypt kingdom and Turkey Kingdom work i see just they are!, if have many sources it's most good,until Mongol army love the desert and play ground all land until Africa

[@aldredtawasil9339]

" according to Islam " Honest" tradesmen are in a way a blessed group of businessman.the prophet Muhammad [ s.a.w] was a successful tradesman until the age of forty..the caliph Abubakr,Omar, and Uthman were also tradesman and belonging to the distinguished families of Mecca..thus trading and trade related economic activities dominated life in Holy Mecca, the city of pilgrimage place at the crossroad of the trade routes, other such as craftsmanship and farming were practised "...

[@internetmail3888]

You can't corrupt Religion no matter how hard you try. Religion is about a connection with God not about a connection with bricks and mortar. What matter is a person's faith in God and that can't be taken away by propagandists even if tradition is corrupted.

[@Leejahstar]

mecca california

[@defenderoftruth3212]

How I earnestly wish that there is now an ORIGINAL ARAMAIC GOSPEL because I am dying inside to read it. I hope there is a translation in English. It's hard to read it in its original form in Aramaic. I don't know that language. I think Aramaic is much harder to read than Arabic. I believe that this Gospel is a book of spiritual guidance from God. Unlike the 4 make-believe gospels, their contents are purely biographies of Prophet jESUs (pbuh) but with a huge hole in the accounts of his life covering the primetime of his age. From what museum or library can we find the original ARAMAIC GOSPEL? Is there any original manuscript for it? I am urging Jay Smith and his cohorts to produce that book as soon as possible so that Muslims and Christians alike will be enlightened. -06-27-23

[@defenderoftruth3212]

According to Jay Smith the LETTERS OF PAUL are just MERE TAFSEER of the Old Testament and “other scriptures” (?). Tafseer means interpretation. If the letters of Paul are just mere tafseer, why is it they become the main core of the New Testament which comprised almost 90 percent of it. These should be written in a separate book. In the Islamic standard, no single tafseer is included in the Holy Qur’an. Hence, the letters of Paul must be written in a separate book. Jay Smith failed not elaborate as to what specific book or verse/s in the Old Testament that each letter is intended to for being a tafseer. He should have elaborated on the following letters of Paul: LETTERS OF PAUL TO THE DIFFERENT CHURCHES: 1). Romans - tafseer of what is it intended for? 2). Hebrews - tafseer of what is it intended for? 3). Corinthians - tafseer of what is it intended for? 4). Galatians - tafseer of what is it intended for? 5). Colossians - tafseer of what is it intended for? 6). Philippians - tafseer of what is it intended for? 7). Ephesians - tafseer of what is it intended for? 8). Thessalonians - tafseer of what is it intended for? LETTERS OF PAUL TO THE DIFFERENT INDIVIDUALS: 1). Timothy - tafseer of what is it intended for? 2). Titus - tafseer of what is it intended for? 3). Philemon - tafseer of what is it intended for? 4). James - tafseer of what is it intended for? 5). John - tafseer of what is it intended for? 6). Jude - tafseer of what is it intended for? 7). Peter - tafseer of what is it intended for? -08-12-23

[@cmsacademy1673]

Hilarious how a non academic wants to use academic research to prove a point that every academic he quotes would laugh at.

[@glencampbell6217]

Trinity : God (Yahweh) + His Word (Jesus) + His Spirit... Islam is a false religion and Muhammad is a false prophet who misled billions of people in the world Jesus is supreme Jesus has the power to grant eternal life. Hallelujah to Christ Jesus Trinity : God (Yahweh) + His Word (Jesus) + His Spirit.... be bless.. peace!.....///

[@bourhaneddine4104]

-Islam is a false religion and Muhammad is a false prophet- ( 64 ) Say, [O Muhammad], _Is it other than Allah that you order me to worship, O ignorant ones_ ? ( 65 ) And it was already revealed to you and to those before you that if you should associate [anything] with Allah, _your work would surely become worthless, and you would surely be among the losers_

[@seal9390]

@@bourhaneddine4104 mohammed is burning in hell and proofed himself he was a false prophet.

[@donthomson10]

@@seal9390 Surah 7:158

[@philipusmanibuy1739]

They choose to stop by at Ethiopia Jay, that why Ethiopia is mention in Bible

[@mustardseedlivepunjeyahara5292]

Ethiopia Libya Egypt Are all mentioned in the Bible,not Mecca

[@donthomson10]

@@mustardseedlivepunjeyahara5292 Medinah?

[@defenderoftruth3212]

According to Jay Smith is that he believed that there is really ONE ORIGINAL GOSPEL. Since he cannot find it, he assumed that the gospel of John is already that book. But his is only mere assumption. He failed to make any clear evidence to show that his assumption is correct. Hence, he has to show manuscripts in Aramaic as evidence for his assumption that the gospel of John is the already real Gospel of Pophet jESUs (pbuh). By his hasty assumption, he undoubtedly discarded the gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke into useless books which have no more meaning to the whole Christendom, and hence not fit to be used as the basis of the religiosity of the Christians. -07-01-23

[@lionabbass]

I Wonder how the well of Zamzam is so we'll known if people didn't live around it much much earlier, say from the time of the time Ismail AS, the ever only son of Ibrahim AS was a child? What water source and what 'wilderness' did mother Haggar and son Ishmael inhabited and survived in to become great nation/s or did they perish and the bible prophecy about him in its totality did not get fulfilled? If the yemeni Jurdum arab tribe people settled in Makka and became a city and much much later the makkans largely became pagans worshiping gods and the arabs as a people including earlier sophisticated yemeni people, oasis Taif, even the Jewish settlement with arabs city called yathrib that when it became the refuge heaven of the noble soul, Prophet Muhammad SA, the accepted last Messenger of Allah by the Muslims the pagan makkans had it's outskirt as route of trade, affirmed by the event of Ghaswah Base and many others,.including Hood until Ahzab/the trench while saw the end of the enemies in Khaibah and hostility stopped upon Treaty of Udabiyyah, how was the route outside Madina chosen since the makkans enemies, the Prophet SA and the Muhajurrun RA are now possible impediment to free flow of the makkans to their city, place they buy and sell goods from and sell to so that they can be good hosts, etc to the arabs that annually at least must come to Makka for the reason/s they do? To the arabs, Makka exists as early as they claim: from the childhood of Ismail AS. Ismail AS left legacy that continued till today that his father Ibrahim AS came to see him and he and him built the Kaabah. He also let us know that his father advised him on the 1st wife which led him to let her go. He also advised him to keep the 2nd wife that he married after the 1st was no more his wife. Are you people saying Makka was an isolated land without anyone living in it or just recently became a swelling of people and the whole arabs are saying it has always been a city as it is claimed by the arabs? Are you people saying the makkans never interfaced with any people earlier than you say? If Makka by the Kaabah at least from the time the nations of arabs began to house their idols in it and collectively made it their business to go there, every year, so much so that they stop wars between themselves in 3 months: month of hajj, the one before and after it so that they can travel safely to this event, how is it that it couldn't be a trade route since visitors of the event will buy and sell perhaps when they arrive to other people of different nations. New York City is a trade route even as it is now: people come to this town to sell what they think people here will like and buy from here what they think their people will buy when they return home and they often make a handsome profit at each end. Is Makka, the city the world over uses it's name to qualify what they think is the gathering place of an event/'madison square garden's used to be the Makka of boxing. France is the Makka of perfume design. Madison avenue is the Makka of high fashion stores. Malls are the Makka of shoppers. Let say Walmart is the Makka of groceries. There are many towns in America that are named Makka. I will love to read how you people tackle this problem you created for yourselves denying Makka ever being a city that people came to and did annual buy and sell.

[@matthabir4837]

I wish Dr. Crone was still alive so that she could explain how her theory accounts (or rather, doesn't account) for prevailing winds in the Red Sea...

[@hetrodoxly1203]

No need like all seas and oceans it changes, not to mention you can tac into the wind.

[@matthabir4837]

Come on now, I am looking for intelligent answers.

[@hetrodoxly1203]

@@matthabir4837 Those are the facts, your ignorance isn't my problem, you can chart it to the wind change by season, but people sail up and down the Red Sea.

[@_John_P]

@@matthabir4837 You are confusing sailing the red sea with an ocean crossing. Wind changes direction between day and night close to land, whilst in the middle of the ocean there's no such thing as the closest land is thousands of km out.

[@matthabir4837]

@@_John_P Go look up the special conditions of wind direction in the Red Sea, and come back with a relevant answer.

[@Uniqp23]

Mohammed might not be a direct descendant of Ishmael but yes he is definitely from the tribe of Ishmael.

[@noork2938]

Abraham never want that far south Jay? But he went all the way to Iraq which is not so close to Israel? Why did he go East but not South.? How sure are you of that? Your oldest Bible is dated to only 250 BCE but Abraham lived in 1250 BCE. So if you ignore your Bible which cannot be trusted because Abraham is 1000 years older than your oldest copies of the Bible then your theory starts to show just how fragile it is. (Jeremiah 8:8 RSV) How can you say, We are wise, we have the law of the LORD,, when the lying pen of the scribes have turned it into a lie

[@BobJones-dq9mx]

Abraham (He has two names in the bible) never existed that is why he was never in Mecca.

[@_John_P]

Abraham is considered a historical figure because he's mentioned by many sources outside the bible as well. Also, his adventures in "Mecca" match several locations in Petra instead.

[@_John_P]

@Doo Du That's not his claim.

[@BobJones-dq9mx]

@Doo Du Prove what..Abrahams two names?

[@BobJones-dq9mx]

@@_John_P COnsidered by who??Other religious fanatics?

[@_John_P]

@@BobJones-dq9mx By historians, which includes those with no vested interested, as it happens to be their field of study but not their religion. Debates about the historicity of public figures and famous individuals is the core of their field, and one of the criteria used to try to establish whether an individual is more than just a legend, or a myth, is to check for other sources and archaeological records. Abraham is considered a true historical figure, however that does not mean that every claim associated with him is necessarily true. Exaggerations, political agenda and myths might also be intertwined with his true life achievements. Moreover, if you make the claim that he did not exist, then the burden of proof is on you, and so far your claim does not fit the historical record.

[@marjupsd3728]

IT IS BULLSHIT THAT SAYS THAT JESUS VOLUNTARILY SACRIFICED HIMSELF CRUCIFIED TO ATONE FOR HUMAN SINS. THE TRUE IS JESUS WAS ARRESTED BY STRATAGEM AND SENTENCED TO DEATH BY WAY OF CRUCIFIXION BY THE CHIEF PRIEST AND THE ELDERS OF THE JEWISH NATION. READ: MATTHEW 26:1-5 MARK 10:33 MATTHEW 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. ACTS 2 : 22-24 22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24. Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

[@azedinebenammar4339]

Jay, i have to make two observations: the first has to do with your Nigerian guest. What is his contribution beside keeping laughing all the time. The other is about you and Patricia Cröne. Neither you nor her are obviously experts in ancient trade. There were trade distribution hubs like today, for exemple Dubaï. Many chinese goods transit in Dubaï and find their way various African countries. If you use this element in your analysis may be you will change your mind. Arabic is one of the rare relatively old languages that has not known deep changes.

[@peterbassey9668]

And now the Mzm butts in but with an ad-hominem!!! Hahahaha!!!!

[@henkh63]

Azedine, you are putting in all sorts of statements; please share some sources. Looks to me like you're speaking out of thin air. And what does your statement on arabic have to do with it? I thought the muslims were so proud that the Quran was such a vital contribution to the development of written arabic. Why not find Mecca in ancient trade documents or on ancient (trade) maps? Then come back and show them to us. We are waiting - and I guess we'll be waiting for a long time...

[@aaaabraham837]

@@henkh63 YOU GOT A PROBLEM - ha ha ha...not the Muslims nor the Orientalists...and what's more, the Xtian Scholars who look into your bible and give references to the children of Abraham, Hagar/Kethura and Ismael...all living in and around Mecca and Medina BEFORE Mohammad (saw).... See what a Jewish History Prof and Rabbi says about Ismael: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5LCaoB4a7ppi5Y

[@henkh63]

@@aaaabraham837 Baca = Mecca, lol, there is absolutely no proof for that, the Valley of Baca would be somewhere near Petra in fact. Face it: the professor puts up a map showing Mecca, but it is not a historical map. Mecca is on NO historical map and NOT mentioned in any document before the eighth century. Psalm 84 is about pilgrims going to Sion (Jerusalem), the temple of the Lord Yahweh. Do they pass through Mecca, 1000 kilometers south? I guess not. vs 6: "Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools." Since Mecca is still a dry and barren place, I guess this is clear proof that this verse is NOT about Mecca.

[@henkh63]

@@aaaabraham837 One more thing: the professor states that Ishmael had an Egyptian mother (Hagar) and he mentions his sons, one of which has a name that at least sounds arabic. Ishmaels wife was Egyptian as well. So if he is the father of the Arabs then they all have Egyptian ancestry. That's about all he says about Ishmael. However, this still doesn't prove anything about the relationship between Abraham/Ishmael and Mecca.