Melee 2022 Tier List by Leffen

[@DarkFishy]

Leffen saw the Mang0, Hbox presentation early and had to drop this quick

[@SudlaSteel]

The “Best Character in Melee” series is an amazing idea. It reminds of the “Making the Case” series for basketball where the greatest players are argued as the GOAT. You could break down the history of each character in competitive play, their strengths, their weaknesses, etc.

[@DantinozMC]

yes for sure I love this "nerdy" stuff

[@xertifiedthicc]

W Clayton Crowley

[@unsourced7561]

I kinda love how Leffen is just like "oh yeah all these top tiers that I don't play either beat fox or are easy to play."

[@DarkLeviathan8]

I love how Leffen is like "Im not putting Yoshi in S-tier because aMSa just won a major, please believe me!"

[@AlexanderKeithWhite]

bro, kzbin.info/www/bejne/hJSzk2propuXaaM, leffen started out as a yoshi main, said yoshi was top 3 in PAL in like 2011

[@Themonkeymartin]

Thaaaats the Leffen

[@coasterthekid8867]

@@DarkLeviathan8 amsa won the major with yoshi not because Yoshi is a top-tier character, but because amsa is a top-tier player. This kind of stuff isn’t all that new the other parts of the fighting game community. For example, Rangchu with Panda.

[@alejandronavarro113]

Well, he can play all of them better then most, including you, so I think he has some say in it.

[@itsdragoman]

remember when Yoshi was C-tier? god bless aMSa.

[@jesuspernia8031]

I swear every single game without fail Yoshi falls under the “has potential to be top tier” category. But in Melee it seems that he’s finally getting attention. 64 too I guess.

[@brunolanglais662]

The fact that isn't game has never changed and now has 8 characters in S tier is INSANE. That means the characters were incredibly balanced on release, but it took 20 years to discover how some of them work best. (Especially Peach)

[@treehann]

Especially Yoshi too..

[@philswift5340]

Phobs were also a good buff to yoshi. Z jump makes the tech skill easier and being able to get guaranteed 49 strength light shield helps escape shield pressure due to the decreased traction.

[@orionhernandez3850]

What is a phob?

[@philswift5340]

@@orionhernandez3850 Controller that uses magnets to read stick inputs. This is to avoid the friction that comes from using potentiometers to read the inputs. Along with that the devs added software remapping and customizable calibration. I used the phob to make the changes I listed in my first comment.

[@ApolloSol]

Does Amsa use that?

[@philswift5340]

@@ApolloSol I believe he has a phob controller, but he doesnt use the same configuration I do. He slides his thumb from x->y or y->x. And for the triggers he does the "trigger trick" so they are both always digital hard shield. If he wants to light shield he just buffers it with z. I personally hate his layout but I cant question the god.

[@thomasstanhouse6224]

I want leffen to play as Jigglypuff and try to win a major. Even better if he does it by trying to time people out. "Completely broken"

[@TruTwist]

Hbox Simp🤓

[@jpupper428]

That would be actually hilarious tho. I'd be down to watching it. Imagine all the juicy memes

[@kaoliger]

leffen simp @@TruTwist 🤓

[@generallyblocky]

This does sound like it be funny to watch maybe once

[@TruTwist]

@@kaoliger hop on it lil bro

[@musoumiko4730]

27:29 There's actually a term for this line of reasoning in Guilty Gear (more specifically +r) called the "Thousand Year" tier list, where its like the hypothetically maximum peak performance a character could put out if you had literally one thousand years (or an infinite amount of time) to perfect them. Naturally Baiken sits at the top and is the most obvious target of discussion due to how her guard cancels work in that game, but I feel like this excerpt about Falco in melee has a very similar vibe to it

[@guyfauks2576]

would aba be top 5 eventually

[@ln8496]

@@guyfauks2576 nah

[@thirstyfajita4115]

Fox and falco and puff are 1,2,3 imo for this reason. They have frame 1 combo starters/breakers or kill moves and at top perfect level that is just so wildly broken.

[@rapidretrovenue563]

imma sound crazy here, but i sorta hard agree w/leff on his Mewtwo take. Ppl might think he's crazy, but most ppl have not seen a good mewtwo. A very optimized Mewtwo who has their teleports down and djc movement is pretty bonkers. I'll say though, I think Marth is harder for M2 than Peach. If you ever see a certain ganon for example who I will not name vs peach, he will abuse top plat edge cancel stomps. M2 can do the exact same thing vs Peach. Marth is just hard.. He's fast, so you can't camp him. Big sword, so forget platform abuse. Comboing him is a nightmare cuz he just reversals outta shit.. I feel like M2 combos puff peach and luigi easier than marth cuz he can find at least stomps against them. Good luck down airing Marth, you kinda gotta play footsies for 10,000 years.

[@Rynopb]

This feels more like a top 10 players ranking vs a character ceiling tier list.

[@jamiechatmanhe]

Love seeing how the playerbase evolved the characters over the years.

[@wynelf1532]

Fox below Puff is crazyy

[@gyastly2737]

absolutley fox below puff kid.

[@Meechell]

@@gyastly2737lol what?

[@YoMateo.]

Whoever's reading this, i pray that whatever you're going through gets better and whatever you're struggling with or worrying about is going to be fine and that everyone has a fantastic day! Amen

[@mrt8bit692]

Dang thanks man

[@ImWeirdBoy]

How did you know?

[@PKzale]

Thanks dude u 2

[@fibbintiggins2858]

Awomen

[@spacecat275]

I'm actually struggling so hard I don't know if I can keep going but we'll try I guess

[@WTH1music]

I think the low tier punish game on spacies is overrated on a lot of them, especially the technical ones. Its very similar to the "well if fox is tas then he can never lose". Like sure mewtwo can play perfectly and zero to death a great fox, but if he flubs he dies at 67 on the top. I just dont think mewtwo has got it like that.

[@YURTZYN42]

True. Mewtwo actually does better against floaties than fox. You can hit spacies hard sure, but good luck catching them to begin with.

[@cw5948]

29:57 "Jigglypuff is by far the best character in the game" lol

[@sinfinite7516]

I still think its funny Leffen thinks that Jiggs gets a boost because she doesn’t require tech skill. Clearly she needs different set of skills that need to be cultivated that’s different then tech skill which must be equal to or more difficult to acquire, otherwise there would be more top Puffs.

[@coolyeh1017]

@@sinfinite7516 also how top Puff players play other characters. Look at how Hbox plays other characters it is immensely different. The closest secondary I think Hbox has is Ganon or Falco which have a playstyle closer to Puff (tons of Bairs).

[@pauldaulby260]

@@coolyeh1017 look how amsa plays other characters. Doesn't mean anything

[@ColinGLogan]

@@pauldaulby260 They're talking about style not strength. Hbox's secondaries are relatively weak for a top player, sure, but that's not the point here. The point is that Hbox's secondaries are WEIRD. He doesn't play at all like those characters typically play. He also seems to be the only top player who has ever felt any sort of affinity for Ness, another extremely strange and awkward character. Hbox's skillset is clearly very, very different from the rest of the top players', and given that no other top player has even a decent secondary Puff, that different skillset is probably necessary to actually play the character well.

[@Thierce]

@@ColinGLogan Idk how Mang0's puff is holding up after all these years but Zain does have a pretty good puff secondary

[@OneTwo1989]

Thanks for putting 8 characters in S tier, it's the obvious thing to do since these people that study the game for thousands of hours after playing it for thousands of hours are still able to win a major with one of them (+ pika and icies actually)

[@Sonnyjune69]

I think if more people tried to play Puff they’d be a lot better in the matchup. So many people hate Puff so they refuse to play Puff seriously and miss out on tons of knowledge about how Puff players think. It’s all about neutral mixups and conditioning. If you can outplay a Puff in neutral you will wreck them. Patience is required to find the openings but when you do, Puff stocks melt very quickly. Get sloppy or impatient and that’s exactly what Puffs thrive on. Puff’s have to rely on this gameplan or they lose. Other top tiers can also adopt that gameplan because they have the speed, moves, or range to play just as defensive as Puff players. Puffs are just usually good at it because they have to be, that’s the only viable gameplan for a Puff to win.

[@drewjones7389]

There is matchup inexperience, but at top level, Puff's neutral is really strong. Her neutral is generally one of her assets. Neutral is just generally harder to learn, so it makes her more exploitable at mid levels.

[@andilex01]

I play as falco and when i play against puff i just play smash ultimate footsies against puff in melee

[@linkkicksu]

Wasn't expecting the Touhou music Good taste based editor

[@bogregz]

this is the most hopium melee tier list ive seen, kinda cool

[@bogregz]

still don't know why he thinks puff needs an air time limit though

[@bogregz]

@@apoocumber4164 He's only lost once in the last two years, is the weird part.

[@ColinGLogan]

@@bogregz I honestly think the salt comes from him considering Hbox's far inferior techskill as justifying his feeling that Hbox doesn't really deserve to be a top player and that Leff should always 3-0 him. Whether it be due to Puff or his own personality, Hbox never gets the credit he deserves for being permanently the best player in the world at neutral for more than a decade now, with the exception of 2020 when there were no events anyway. Often other top players instead dismiss him as being basically a cheeser even though he's got more majors than anyone and is arguably the GOAT. To be fair to Leffen, he's more consistent than the rest of the top players who shit on Hbox - if they're all so much better but Hbox keeps beating them or running them close, then logically he has to be playing as a broken character. The only flaw in that reasoning is that Hbox is actually just better than them.

[@traycarrot]

This is a Fox main copium tier list, what are you talking about

[@christomanci]

@@ColinGLogan lol okay

[@thymeepis126]

I love the idea of the “best character in melee” series :)

[@paradockz]

what do you think about your sponsor not being able to pay out people billions of dollars and needing to be bought out by their number one competitor?

[@deeptochatterjee532]

People ask what "S" stands for in S-tier and the answer is sponsor

[@Micha-Hil]

for lazy people [S TOP 4 ALL HAVE A CASE FOR #1] Marth, Fox, Jigglypuff, Sheik, Falco, Peach, Captain Falcon, Yoshi [S-] Pikachu, Ice Climbers [A] Samus, Luigi, Dr. Mario [B] Mewtwo, Donkey Kong, Mario, Ganondorf, Mr. Game & Watch, Link, Young Link, Roy [C] Ness, Pichu, Kirby [D] Zelda, Bowser

[@mxcascade]

Would love to see a video talking about what Leffen’s ideal controller ruleset is. Like how would he have box nerfed and gcc buffed to make up for 100% consistent shield drops and backdashes

[@Yobolight]

Mewtwo is the most underrated character. He’s a way harder character to play than most mid-tier.

[@DarkLeviathan8]

Leffen's bias with Mewtwo is honestly funny. He's a low-tier and nothing more.

[@Yobolight]

Still the most underrated low-tier.

[@jesuspernia8031]

@@DarkLeviathan8 So he doesn’t have any potential to get any good results or even be a mid tier?

[@andrewwebb624]

Only disagreement I have is dk edge guarding, in certain matchups it's top tier level in my opinion, marth, sheik falcon. It's pretty mid against spaciest I'll agree but up b off stage and back air mean that dk can theoretically gimp most characters excluding like puff and peach

[@jonathanc3001]

Was thinking the same

[@matthewcuriel991]

Naw bro, dks edge gaurd is literally best against spacies lol because their recovery is so linear ... tbh my favorite match up is against spacies cuz i either have kills off cargo throw in neutral or off stage gimps. The struggle is holding neutral but even then i personally when i did play did well against most outside of top level spacies

[@tombean-king3486]

Leguen ranking Roy basically says a skilled Roy can beat any fox

[@a.k.8195]

No way he really just put Doc in A tier 💀

[@jhonxiolon]

Leffen talking about how puff is the best character because of all of Johns that happened to him...LMAO

[@Sidekick777]

You may not agree with leffens tier list but you gotta admit, that ad placement was slick af.

[@funjukebox1324]

I think that Ganon should be higher up, he does well against the floatier characters! Prometheus and N0ne make his movement look really really fast, I'd say that he should be at the top of B tier

[@guyfauks2576]

marth and sheik wop his ass

[@funjukebox1324]

@@guyfauks2576 He can chain grab Sheik to high percents and those are two top tiers, the Marth mu isn't even that bad, I'd argue that Falco is harder to deal with

[@GiftfromGod333]

I think that Falcon do not stand in S tier, falcon due to the bad recovery and easy to combo type that he is i think he is Solid A tier

[@OverSizedPillow]

It seems weird to rate some by current performance and then others (IE sheik, mewtwo) by a theoretical standard that hasn't been seen. I do think the insight on the characters is generally correct though

[@bailujen8052]

What do you think of modern Xbox controllers for Slippi? To me it’s a more convenient controller as you don’t need an adapter and you have way less chance of breaking your fingers

[@orionhernandez3850]

Doc actually doesn't look too bad against peach. It's a war of attrition but it looks more annoying for peach than it does for doc

[@dicychop]

doc definitely wins but peach can really make it hard

[@KeyboardKlutz_0]

first Hungrybox, now Leffen... THE TIME IS NIGH DK MAINS, RISE TO THE CALL OF STARDOM!!!

[@BurritoGalaxy]

PLEASE make that series about the best characters. Melee needs more content like that (high level scripted analysis/discussion). I know myself and many others would watch every minute

[@terminusest9179]

Leffen, where is Giga Bowser.

[@hahahalala-i1x]

yoshi does NOT have a case for number one what the hell?

[@hahahalala-i1x]

good tierlist tho

[@franciscoguerrero4814]

Agree definitely High A but the rest is pretty fire

[@tsoprano4891]

Link is the next sleeper high tier, great matchups vs icies and marth

[@liltwistedgamer]

As a Roy player just seeing him in B tier makes me happy.

[@LordZemosa]

Fire boys eatin tonight

[@yourpersonaldevil808]

Our boy making waves

[@wildcard13294]

LAGwars be doin work

[@kylarjonez4256]

Okay a real character nerd

[@NecroGarfunk]

I don't know if I can agree with putting Mewtwo that high (like I really know), but I would absolutely love to see you put it to the test, especially with Slippi providing a more 'casual' environment to easily play quasi-competitively against other players on your level. I can definitely see Mewtwo's potential, but you have to give other players the chance to adapt to it.

[@NeonMyloXyloto]

Really good and illuminating tier list. I think at this point we can say Roy is higher in the B tier..Zain has shown that just having his dash dance and grab can carry him very far, and I don't think it's just Zain. I think those 2 features are much more valuable than anything game and watch and mario have which seem to be more gimmicks. Dash Dance Grab is a legit consistent method that really increases your odds against higher tiers

[@thirstyfajita4115]

His neutral is amazing for a bottom tier and comparable to a top tier but that is literally all he has. Rest of his kit is completely garbage/broken.

[@apricot8301]

Yeah but... Platforms... 🥲

[@venorant-2322]

32:05 this has to be satire

[@seanbills3559]

It’s copium

[@zachariemelanson485]

Cried for Falco when you said top 4 have an argument for best, when you said in his section there's an argument for him anywhere between 6 and 1

[@khosuzu]

touhou music spotted also the virtual self hoodie

[@PKzale]

Let's go 40+ minutes of big Leff talking about melee I'm here for it

[@VontoMasuna]

Zeldas down b is really strong

[@TripleR6000]

ok so leffen is the toxic king

[@IXXKHChrisXXI]

Gotta say Leff, that transition to the ad was clever

[@adonbanchamek2254]

Leffen with that Ganondorf downplay

[@nc2223]

Leffen not having an F tier category shows me that he truly loves Melee and it’s characters 😂😂😂 Love that Link is B 😎🥹 and Kirby is C

[@thestatesidedaily9890]

Pichu's edgeguard and recovery are arguably the strongest part of his game. Not sure why you think otherwise.

[@mystery_1155]

all that matters to me is that at the end of all the rambling about the ridiculous potential of characters that aren't top 3, leffen still acknowledged marth as the best all-around character w/ the strongest argument for number 1. it's just truth. kirby is also a solid mid tier.

[@wabbylegs101]

I got lucky! I started playing melee again a month or so ago. lucky because i used marth as main when i was a kid. so i was used to him already when i started dashing/teching/Lcanceling. I also used kirby too back then! cool you use them too! kirby is better than people think

[@sharsasuke01]

The DK ranking hits different after Mainstage. lol

[@MetaDiscussions]

39:07 the legend of 2007 mewtwoking, the robot, had it already figured it out

[@marvinseidel98]

You should try picking Falco and shooting puff

[@e102penguin]

Leffen stopping the spread of Peach Propaganda you love to see it.

[@ColinGLogan]

Properly rating the low tiers by capability rather than ease of use? Massive top tier because the top level of the game is mostly skill and the characters are pretty close together? Tier gap between Doc and Mario? Never thought the best tier list would be Leff's lmao. Do disagree about Yoshi but otherwise love this list. Edit: He mangled the top tier later in the video :(. Still a good list tho, but the Fox main copium is crazy

[@pauldaulby260]

Imo melee would be better with fox's pal recovery. He'd still be the best in the game but actually have a weakness rather than being the best at everything.

[@master_productions]

Falco is without a doubt top 3

[@jesuspernia8031]

I hate people putting him in any spot below 1-3. That’s just false

[@master_productions]

@@jesuspernia8031 facts, besides fox he has the best case for #1

[@leyoshivenere350]

I wish we could see a tournament with only low tier characters. We could have a 5000 bucks grand finale Young Link VS Donkey Kong

[@duckhive]

can we get a 2024 Tier List?

[@maxwellpinder]

How does Mewtwo deal with projectiles. Every time I start to beat someone at the local they just start running away and spamming projectiles

[@rapidretrovenue563]

nair chews through pills. top platcamp peach n charge ur shadowball. Consistent charged balls beat relying on RNG for turnips. Also edge cancel stomp. grind NiL tps for spacie lasers because if they commit too hard they risk you tping onto them and catching them offguard. bombs and rangs ehhhh, kinda annoying but just be patient and threaten them by charging ball. Link players don't wanna runaway much if u start getting free charge shot attempts for free. Also like spacies, grind tp NiL. ICs ice blocks? lol nair sheik needles eh, just have good movement. PAY attention to them though, as one needle pops a fully charged ball, so if you have a charged ball, go for a tech chase with it and don't throw it in neutral. uhhh, i think thats about it.

[@MonCompteTubulaire]

I'd love see you playing Yoshi again

[@shiverian5970]

only thing stopping puff from being the best character in the game hands down is sociology

[@nicolasfierro2143]

it’s everything she’s debatably not even top five people put her so high because they can’t stand loosing

[@susparia4724]

Can’t wait for mewtwo, bowser, and the links to shoot up the tier list

[@FieldsOfConfusion]

Hey Leff, I think you should enforce some new rules at tournements about Puff.

[@esbluetheprototype]

TAS people have been telling us for years that Yoshi & Fox are the best characters on paper.

[@azurda7483]

Touhou music… who’s editing for Leff 👀

[@chrisdrums1910]

do you know the track around 22:10? please.

[@TeoEmil]

@@chrisdrums1910 that’s the Nintendo eshop theme for 3ds in one of the early months lol

[@chrisdrums1910]

@@TeoEmil is it a remix

[@tirq7616]

@@chrisdrums1910 0:00 - Touhou Immaterial and Missing Power - Silence 1:20 - Yoiyami Dancers: Twilight Danmaku Dancing - Clownpiece's Most Hectic Day Ever 2:24 - Touhou 13 Title Screen 12:47 - Yoiyami Dancers: Twilight Danmaku Dancing - Moonlit Fairies' Night 21:08 - Yoiyami Dancers: Twilight Danmaku Dancing - Dancefloor in the Starry Sky 29:33 - Touhou 11 - Heartfelt Fancy 39:43 - Touhou 6 - Voile the Magic Library (SC-88 Pro)

[@chrisdrums1910]

@@tirq7616 you might be the all-time goat of youtube comments, god bless your soul

[@startic7516]

Only Leffen would put his own name in the title of a video on his channel for clickbait

[@orionparsons7631]

Doesn't g&w have missing hitboxes on a few of his moves

[@proteanalias]

Finally someone showing falcon the respect he deserves. I been shilling falcon for damn near 10 years and finally people other than falcon mains admitting he is in the running for top spot

[@BLUE_FANG]

Ah yes the true melee villian

[@SpokenSSBM]

LUIGI IS HIGH TIER WE DID IT

[@NathanPCGamer]

How can you rate pikachu with a secondary? I know there is axe, but thats one player. You are taking his skill and biasing the character. A pichu would also be better if they could succesfully secondary as fox, but like.......

[@RichieRage]

I love the doodoo talk, I'd put leffens doodoo talk on S tier

[@sephiroth8575]

What was I even expecting clicking on this. The Leffen cope is insane.

[@jesuspernia8031]

That is a REALLY big S tier

[@Avatarbutters]

Yoshi S tier finally.

[@nicholasstocker8864]

This is for the PAL version?

[@sinfinite7516]

NAHH STAND STRONG WITH THE MEWTWO PICK, MEWTWO A TIER

[@wavedash-]

crappy mic + loud background music is not a great combo

[@prestonbeaulieu4379]

I would love to see that series. I also think it would be really interesting to make a video/videos talking about every character's match up spread

[@SolideSchlange]

Touhou music in background lets go

[@bunnysoup6858]

That's what I was thinking.

[@BullCraftMaxx]

Also, not sure I buy Yoshi being S Tier. High A is more than fair to me

[@fibbintiggins2858]

Haven't watched it yet, but Yoshi in S tier? There is no way in hell. A tier seems way more reasonable

[@BoltTheEmolga]

@@fibbintiggins2858 In 8th above only Pika and Icies, honestly I can understand it

[@griffinashley2890]

Yoshi is amazing

[@TheSpartanlaw]

It's hard to distinguish simply because aMSa is S tier

[@Jamie-op7uy]

@@BoltTheEmolga Yoshi fits more with S- tier than S imo. I don’t think Yoshi is better than any of the S tiers, but can be switched around with pika and icees… the box controller could prove to be a huge level up for Yoshi in the future though. I’d love to see Yoshi being debated as the best character, I haven’t been excited for melee in a hot minute

[@jetzine00]

Finally. Someone putting Peach where she belongs. Been on the Peach > Falcon train for a while. Don't know about her being better than Falco tho...

[@jetzine00]

Also, I love the inclusion of "ranges". It would be cool to chart out everyone's ranges and see how that influences order within tiers.

[@Simptendo]

Mewtwo is cool….just hard to unlock lol

[@Caesarsal4d]

why is leffen not at his main setup? his mic is so ass i can barely hear him lmao

[@honkykong3047]

I'm curious ro see how tsm deals with the ftx collapse

[@bw1170]

Thanks for the video! It's been awhile. :)

[@boxwine5882]

lol you can feel the saltiness with the puff ranking.

[@yourstillwithme]

Mewtwo is terrible. Once hes getting hit at all he struggles to get his footing back more than almost any character in the entire game. His d tilt, f tilt, jab, and nearly ALL of his frontal options are awful. His grab is really bad too and leads to almost nothing vs most of the cast. Outside of a great recovery, fantastic bair, and excellent edge game, thats all he has. Donkey Kong as you pointed out has a bad frontal game too, but at least he has d and f tilt that space well, an EXCELLENT grab game, and incredible punish game. You put those two next to eachother and i think a lot of people would say Donkey Kong is way better than Mewtwo. Mewtwos fine, hes under appreciated, but hes nowhere close to DK and Mario. Mario, DK, and Ganon are all much better and have performed better in tournaments throughout the years. Mewtwo NEVER has any representation.

[@yuomovaeh3028]

Based Touhou music

[@rapidretrovenue563]

Peach loses to top plat tho, like HARRRRD.. I'm sorry, but if GANON is sitting on a top plat against your character, your character is not top tier. Peach is A+ AT BEST.

[@Nyanaro]

Very cool choice of music

[@quiverlip9829]

Oh, I would love that Best Char in Smash series

[@tiporosso]

Song at 13:10?

[@tirq7616]

Yoiyami Dancers: Twilight Danmaku Dancing - Moonlit Fairies' Night

[@average_cviewer]

don't see why this video got so much heat, you lay out your points very well. are people surprised that Marth is easier to play with than Fox? uh yeah, that's why i pick him lol

[@alexa9433]

Link should be A tier behind Doc. Or at least top of B tier