Melee Improvement Tier List

[@latissimusdomsi]

If there's anything Smash players like, it's tierlists

[@silas4776]

i play ult but i absolutely love the way melee players look at improvement so i always turn to them for inspiration

[@Danielsworlds]

PP is special among top-level Smashers. If you have ever been to his dream he honestly loves to and puts in great effort to help guide and educate players. If you ask him a question he won't actually give you an answer. " hey I am a marked player struggling in this matchup what can I do" and he will tell you he will tell you to use this move more often to watch for spacing on this specific move to look out for this move and with punish that specifically. He truly cares and wants to educate and that is incredible

[@CheapShotFail]

Your "trifecta" is a great way of adapting learning to melee. I'm a chess coach of over 10 years now, and the 3 components we use are solo practice (tactics, combinations, openings/endgames, etc.), coaching, and serious tournament play (although over the past year that has had to be substituted for serious competition, preferably with someone you know IRL). I'm sure that's similar for many other sports/competitive games and they have their own methodology that's incredibly similar too. Really good advice and cool to see someone who clearly knows about improvement talking on the subject! Keep up the great Marth play too, can't wait to see you keep taking some more big heads in bracket!

[@FirePuff12]

Kodorin videos LETSGO

[@Cashmoneez]

I know of KoDoRin but have never watched his content this is some great stuff

[@meyers323]

Being in good shape and healthy is super underrated. I remember noticing Wizzrobe packed lunch to a major tournament, where all the regular tourney monsters usually eat fast food near the venue. That's a huge advantage.

[@matthewjared1]

The 2 hours spent scripting was time well spent in my book, great video!

[@pIayingwithmahwii]

Can you do a vid on how to analyze yourself? I do friendlies and solo practice, but I literally learn nothing from watching myself and trying to analyze.

[@xXTKiNGzXSESEYSX]

Grest idea

[@KoDoRiN]

I'll take note of it!

[@stonerdugan]

Omg I think this so much please do this

[@fullsend4976]

You need to be critical of why you put out a certain move, especially if you got punished for it and ask yourself, why did it get beat, or what could I have done in the situation differently, and how could I have prevent that from happening in the future and apply it to your training.

[@GirlDotJpeg]

SAME

[@w00j__]

loved the tier list topic, the logo/symbol choices, and the level of detail and insight you went into each methodology. if you're open to yt comment suggestions, have your script on your monitor so it looks like you're relatively looking at your camera rather than looking down throughout the whole video. Also would have loved a little more concrete examples (i.e. bringing up how Armada had to train his YL and fox for years before bringing them to tournament in the main switching/multi-main sections) Overall loved this different take on melee tier lists, especially as a newer player. looking forward to more of this content!

[@KoDoRiN]

thanks for the constructive feedback :)

[@spacepope20k]

as someone that coaches other games and used to compete directly as a player in esports, this is all mostly spot on. special shout out to you kodorin for having my all time favorite twitter john. was a 10/10 post. :]

[@pIayingwithmahwii]

This was all well explained, especially the part around 10:20 .

[@TheChicken313]

Fantastic video. Love the part about goals, cause I always tell my friends this. Loving the game you play is priority #1!!!

[@TheJulien2002]

Very good video! I especially like the "Trifecta" advices, which seems like a key and self-explanatory concept

[@joed9514]

I have a healthy gamer coach too! He’s actually helped me a bit in understanding why I choke when I play in tournament so I’m glad other players are having good experiences

[@jackjoseph4436]

Such a good video. I didn’t realize how many things I was wasting time on and wondering why I wasn’t improving.

[@Ostro87]

Super great video, a lot of these points can also apply to fighting games in general. Keep it up 👍

[@deep_cuts2019]

I'm all about improvement so I can't wait to watch this video

[@pIayingwithmahwii]

how was it now that you've watched it? any closing remarks?

[@FlamingZelda3]

I think it's hilarious how oddly specific these melee tier lists are getting

[@cameronstoeppel7075]

this also helps with ultimate! Thank you for making this.

[@derpinafps]

The entirety of the multi main section was just one big compliment to m2k lmao

[@somniad]

I am in love with the weird but effective decision to give a highly multifaceted presentation on improvement in melee and basically replace powerpoint slides with tier list items

[@yoyoflow09]

damn this is a fire video, applies to many things outside of melee

[@violetchan6402]

This video is REALLY good! I’ve realized just how much I’ve neglected analysis, and it’s because of my mindset making me see my mistakes in the moment, which isn’t that good for me to do. Also, I lowkey thought that the falcon knee represented “getting bodied” lmao.

[@theorist]

pretty good, only problem i had was with the "setting concrete goals" part. When I was on the come up in SoCal, I would frequently set other competitors as "goals" to beat. It started off small with beating the best in my little city, then beating the best in my county, and then slowly taking off sets from the socal pr players. I don't think settings goals like this is bad unless you have a weak mindset. But you should be working on that anyway. Other than that though, this is a great list on how to improve. I'm glad you mentioned the mango thing, the better you get, the more you realize "top players" aren't nearly playing the same game as us.

[@KoDoRiN]

setting goals is not necessarily a bad thing, as it can help with some motivators, but imo it should not be the main motivator since it's more of an extrinsic than an intrinsic motivation.

[@ACrazyMonk]

Can’t wait to see watch this and learn from the improvement god himself Also incredibly devastating to hear we started attending tournaments at nearly the exact same time lmao love ya Kodorin-leroydankins

[@bloodredhoro68]

listening to the video and noticing a lot of things you said mirrored what i heard from Dr k. it makes so much sense now that i've learned you watch him too

[@lanexyz]

“What does this Kreygasm represent?”

[@IckStuff]

KoDoRin content pog subbed, great vid, keep posting :)

[@MrGetownedLP]

INSANELY GOOD VIDEO

[@kkim5000]

great stuff. as an ultimate player, this is all applicable to competitive ultimate as well.

[@razorman77]

Great video. You earned a new subscriber and fan!

[@pIayingwithmahwii]

Glad to see you making videos. Preparing for the necessity of having a following when you reach god tier lol

[@piocastellano8221]

Thank you for this video!

[@viceroi9332]

Damn this is great content. Subbed!

[@rkraccoons]

Excellent video

[@YungKMMA]

Absolute banger of a video

[@quavergamma4223]

This is a great video and I honestly think you can expand this to Smash Ultimate (or even other fighting games in general) and the tips would remain pretty much the same. If you want to reach out to a bigger audience then maybe consider changing the title to “Smash improvement tier list” instead of Melee and edit the description, but that’s your call.

[@TheAlex010]

Must-have for anyone serious about improvement: Having a coach), the trifecta: solo practice (tech skill), analysis (see what you did wrong), friendlies (cycle), watching/reading guides, mindset training (mentality, choking, cognitive exercises), using tools (ikneedata, uncle punch, slippi analysis) Will probably help you improve: discussion groups (discord), entering tournaments, health (eating, sleeping, etc...), Might help you improve: unfocused practice session (unranked), only doing one or two of the trifecta, copying top players, learning obscure tech (multishines), having concrete goals (get PR) Unlikely to help you improve: Casual friendlies (items, hyrule temple, etc...) , dual maining/secondairies, switching mains,

[@corbenmurphy1807]

These apply to other video games like league, but to any skill in life. Great video 👍🏽

[@LoveChaac]

Great Video!

[@garrettpeterson3324]

The KZbin algorithm took too long to recommend this channel.

[@jimsface]

NICE. You’re so sick dude. Subbed

[@loveage8327]

Great stuff

[@Avinkwep]

This video is important

[@simongotborg3866]

I've been playing competitive Melee since late 2006 and I've improved more in the last 2 years than all the rest combined. The biggest difference was mentality, but not in the way most people talk about it. I heard so much about not choking in tournament. Not letting anger/frustration ruin your play. Learning from your mistakes instead of blaming the game. "Playing to learn" rather than "playing to win". Not getting hung up on certain match-up and play styles. All of that's good to know, but that wasn't my problem. No, my problem was that I felt like my life was hopeless and there was nothing I could do to improve anything (smash or otherwise). I put tons of hours into practice, not because I thought it would make me better, I just wanted to be able to say I had tried. Which is both true and false. I did put in a lot of effort and I made the best choices I could with my limited understanding, but I certainly wasn't paying attention and practicing efficiently. It's very hard to give something 100% of your energy and taking in all that's happening if you don't believe, deep down in your heart, that you effort makes a difference. The most tragic part about the whole thing is that I never worked on my mental issues because I didn't think that it would have helped.

[@dirtball1011]

If only I cared enough to improve. I am rather quite happy becoming stagnant but goddamn for those that wish to improve or those who are upset that they are not improving this is a great guide

[@Space_Lion]

Godlike vid idea

[@lakessbm]

Great video! Could you link some of the things you mentioned? Trying to find ' ID data' not sure exactly what u said there in the last tier item

[@KoDoRiN]

Do you mean this? ikneedata.com/calculator.html

[@lakessbm]

@@KoDoRiN yess thank you☺️

[@Martin-tv7hr]

1:50 what does axe do???

[@KoDoRiN]

He's an anomaly, and most of his practice I'd categorize as unfocused practice sessions

[@koitsuga]

Hell yeah I subscribed before 1k subs, I'm cool

[@pkthunder7008]

Dr. K is a good recommendation for that category of self improvement.

[@jacobdawson9916]

great video idea.

[@kestij4189]

Honestly this tier list is probably more important to your performance than literally any other tier list

[@alphablitz6048]

Banger vid

[@YokohamaKaidashi]

Great video, only have a tiny nit pick. I think of concrete goals as a tool. Like you said, if you only focus on it, it can absolutely demotivate you but I think that if you don't look at the concrete results of what and how you're doing (either with gameplay or mentality) you might find it difficult to improve. I think that you tie bit into analysis but I wanted to leave a comment to help the algorithm.

[@KoDoRiN]

All of these are tools to some capacity, but some are better to focus than others.

[@EatsGlue]

Any advice on physical health? Specifically hands/wrists. My wrists are pretty fucked up and it led to me quitting melee. But the itch never left. I want to play again! But pain 😞

[@KoDoRiN]

www.patreon.com/1HP

[@AZNBeefcake]

This is timely for me

[@dieg0shine789]

Great vid :)

[@Back2Zack]

So I'm not nearly as interested in improving my melee as my Tennis, but the point about tournaments really hit me. I don't play enough stakes and so when i do i struggle even bringing my B game. Going to try to add in more competition.

[@michaelyoung3054]

Somebody should make a tier list of tier lists...

[@swalotmain866]

Kodorin sensei, what should I do if I want to play 2 characters, not out of matchup necessity, but because I have fun with both? I know I should probably stick with one for my own improvement, but both characters have equal amt of pros and cons to maining.

[@KoDoRiN]

You can play both for fun if you want. For improvement sake, you should choose one dominant. It's also okay to play melee without the mission to always improve, everyone has their own reasons for playing!

[@coolpikachufan01]

Sweet video! I can definitely vouch for Healthy Gamer coaching - I started group coaching in September of last year and saw noticeable improvement in my day-to-day life and in my Melee mindset. It's well worth it! If anyone is on the fence, give it a shot

[@Eskiii]

Do you have any tips on how to pick a main? I have like 4 choices but want to focus on one. i have been mostly spectating melee for a few years and want to start playing but its extremely difficult for me to just choose a character in any game and looking to get rid of constantly switching and actually beat someone lol

[@KoDoRiN]

It's definitely a process. My character main process went from puff --> falco --> fox --> Marth myself, and what really made me fall in love with Marth was his wavedash feeling, and knowing he's a top tier that I know won't hold me back at top level. You can definitely just play any characters you want on the side, but you should choose 1 to invest in long-term, and really see which one of those characters you have a good connection with. Feel free to ask more questions for clarification regarding this.

[@ssbmcrisp5486]

I genuinely think the fact that I haven’t been able to stick to a character for more than a year ever is the main reason I’m still so bad even though I’ve been playing since 2015. I don’t know why it’s so hard but I just can’t pick one character and I hate myself for it. I just need to make myself stick to one but I have so much trouble choosing.

[@Pleasantries]

you're sick

[@abubakromar2446]

Good video and I have 2 questions: What mindset tips do you have when practicing within the game (friendlies and solo practice? Got a link to PPMD's google doc compilation and the mindset tips he gave?

[@KoDoRiN]

The mindset you would want to have is having a focused goal in what you want to accomplish. If lacking that, analyze and see how you got hit and then practice accordingly. Google drive: drive.google.com/drive/folders/106FwRzz5g-RK1ZGCabxT1gPtgCbWs0dG (Marth) drive.google.com/drive/folders/106FwRzz5g-RK1ZGCabxT1gPtgCbWs0dG (Falco) Mindset: docs.google.com/document/d/1fXip_TlcbWbr5wvNngkDbqsxOl25kAcyUut-zE-MJOs/edit Consult Healthy Gamer for more mindset advice

[@abubakromar2446]

@@KoDoRiN thanks for the help

[@names6494]

What is the ratio of time you spend on each part of the "trifecta"? Do you spend about the same amount of time on each section?

[@KoDoRiN]

It depends on what you need more and what would give you greater returns.

[@renos654]

Good video:)!

[@mnoypoiuyt65r4w8]

earned a sub

[@CARROTMOLD]

12:00 practicing doc up-b cancel

[@Acryte]

KoDoRiN iS gReAt! :O

[@swank8508]

Hello, I am a sheik main (you played me a few days ago in viewer games) who used to main fox. in the short term, even with 0 practice, my fox likely out performs my sheik vs ice climbers. Is it worth it to go fox just to get the win but practice sheik ics with the intent to go sheik eventually, since i am investing 0 hours of practice into fox? Thank you

[@KoDoRiN]

I recommend you stick it out with Sheik. Sheik has the tools to overcome Icies, and when you run into a competent Icies player, they will eat up your limited fox. Might as well ride it out with Sheik with valuable lessons you may learn long-term.

[@sammurray1943]

unranked helps me get comfortable with playing, sometimes i train so much that i dont ever play

[@NaeryuDoWell]

good shit

[@Atonal_7]

my practice is literally this upside down

[@benjaminkhong]

Can you do one for ultimate I think it would be really interesting!

[@KoDoRiN]

I don't know anything about ultimate so it probably wouldn't be good lmao. However if other seasoned ult players want to collaborate, i'd be happy to give my inputs!

[@andrewgenz906]

I think almost all of this stuff applies equally to both games anyway. The only exception is multiple mains/secondaries is probably more valid in Ultimate than in Melee.

[@derpderp1562]

I disagree with the placement of the goal setting, mostly because I just took a sport psychology class and a lot of the concepts apply to smash. If you really are aiming for the top, having a concrete goal such as pr or top in your region is absolutely necessary. It’s definitely more important to have a love for the game and be intrinsically motivated, but that shouldn’t put the goal setting process at a lower tier. Part of making the outcome goal effective is also making other goals that are smaller, and more in your control. Performance goals, like individual tournament records get a little closer, or performing a tech you practiced in a game. What’s incredibly helpful though is small process goals. Small mental or physical strategies that are fully in ones control. Practicing breathing, proper and positive self talk, understanding how you think about the game itself; these are goals that improve your improvement process, and many top athletes and coaches in physical sports use this goal framing strategy to map out an athletes “road to success,” so to speak. I think this will apply to video games as well, especially cognitively intensive ones such as melee. Finishing the video, I bet the healthy gamer coach would also help with the micro goals. Having that overarching goal is also an important ingredient in the goal mapping formula, and does need to be used responsibly to be effective. Since I don’t know the extent to which it’s mandatory at high level play, I’ll put it one or two tiers higher.

[@KoDoRiN]

I agree with your take. To clarify, the reason why it ranked low is because often it's smasher's ONLY source of motivation, which in my opinion makes it pretty bad. Thus, why it only might help you.

[@bloodredhoro68]

been watching dr k. all day, then your video pops up. don't think thats by chance

[@UnfathomableIsSexy]

damn kodorin is mad smart

[@user-st5ls5mz2v]

very nice

[@kaidenm.5931]

11:47 the westballz

[@HitscanSedan]

Do you happen to have a link or something to the cognitive stuff for the unhealthy mentality? Great video by the way 8)

[@KoDoRiN]

smashboards.com/threads/carefully-ask-ppmd-about-the-tiara-guy.118998/post-22019936

[@HitscanSedan]

That response speed damn near frame perfect lfg

[@AiZm8]

this has a lot more credibility in my eyes because you mentioned healthygamer LOL

[@SandwichGamer107]

First I thought this was a meme but this is actually really helpful. Great video and sub from me! :D

[@Parpeing]

This represents

[@lambchu6459]

Didnt shroomed switch and got better? I supposed he falls under the top player category

[@Keys60_]

I wanted to be a Marth player starting out but I really couldn't just get him down no matter what even when I saw myself getting better at the game, so I switched to Sheik since I felt it would be more comfortable and I find myself not hating playing the game I guess But I've been playing Link since day 1 fuck what everyone thinks

[@Keys60_]

update: fuck sheik, i am a dual marth/link main again.

[@cherishTFT]

666th subscriber :D love ur content

[@pIayingwithmahwii]

Not saying you're wrong, but Jerry switched mains between puff and fox several times I think, lol. And his results stayed the same/improved LOL. although i guess its fair to say he's plateaued

[@Mfolsom245]

Didn't he say that mostly for people outside of the top 100 though? Jerry has been a top 100 player since 2017

[@d3crescentia]

arguably, Jerry could have pushed through his plateau and gotten better if he had spent less time grinding other games at the time

[@lancebunag5570]

Is double shining considered an obscure hard tech with little return? I find that that its pretty useful espescially as falco against fox when shield pressuring, as fox can shine OOS after your shine to beat almost everything you do after your shine. Im asking because I dont know.

[@KoDoRiN]

No, it has a lot of applications. More useful for Falco than Fox tho.

[@colinmurphy2214]

6:18 Plup, Mew2King, and Leffen all come to mind

[@KoDoRiN]

*outside of top level

[@mich5946]

epic

[@rob1996ization]

Melee

[@boogergoblin]

Unrelated but ur marth is sick

[@antoitoine]

i disagree on 1 point pi is actually fun to learn

[@KoDoRiN]

how???

[@antoitoine]

​@@KoDoRiN i was memeing but i actually think that its a good memory exercise thats what make me notice how much things im able to remember

[@AngelCruz-lo5wr]

dooooope

[@woobinthescrub]

neat

[@lukehong7149]

noti gang

[@brb23960]

Ah yes, another video to tell me I should actually start learning melee... the real question is when will I stop pushing it off 😂 just worried the controller I use wouldn’t be allowed offline so it feels pointless

[@rkraccoons]

Its never too late to start :)