Men Are Finished- Intelligence Squared U.S.

In a modern, post-industrial economy that seems better suited to women than men, many are wondering if men have been permanently left behind. Education and employment statistics point to a clear and growing dominance in women's status at home and in the workplace. Are men primed for a comeback or have the old rules changed for good?
For: Hanna Rosin
For: Dan Abrams
Against: Christina Hoff Sommers
Against: David Zinczenko
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[@bartlesandjames612]

This 'debate ' is stupid. If men are finished, then humanity is FINISHED.

[@WeeHgt]

Not until the sperm in the sperm banks runs out!

[@WiserInTime]

Hear Hanna Rosin: Haughty, condescending, snarky, belittling, dismissive . Hear Christina Hoff Sommers: Unifying, offering solutions, eager to build bridges between the genders. Christina Hoff Sommers....Love that woman.

[@richsocaplaya]

Wiser InTime "new kind of reverse chauvinism, female chauvinism"

[@IIIIIIII]

+Wiser InTime agreed. she displays much more feminine qualities than rosin, that's for sure.

[@darklord220]

Christina Hoff Sommers was the only person there that had any intellectual heft to her arguments.

[@darklord220]

er ha The other side did not demonstrate 'men are finished' to be a true proposition. Most of that side engaged in snide and passing remarks with unclear and skewed references to data. Women are taking over the workforce yet they are so underrepresented in STEM degrees and CEO positions? C'mon now.

[@darklord220]

er ha Claiming the 'patriarchy' as actually causal is not really falsifiable. How do you prove there exists a causal chain between expressed attitudes and actual gaps?

[@darklord220]

Tanboter Summers cited statistics quite frequently. Did you watch the whole debate?

[@SilvanaDil]

+darklord220 - Of course, CHS had the most intellectual heft. She's the only one of the four who's an actual scholar. Plus, she's right.

[@PaladinHero]

Men are only finished if we allow ourselves to be finished. The only power women have is the power that we give them.

[@PeterSivazak]

Amen brother.

[@PeterSivazak]

You certainly are.

[@DinosaurEmperor84]

For fucks sake, the "women do 2/3 of the work" thing has been debunked as a lie a long time ago. Why do they even bring it up here?

[@DinosaurEmperor84]

***** Marriage has nothing to do with it. And even if it did then I know it's not the case where I live, a study made last year showed that with both housework and regular work combined, men actually worked more hours in households.

[@Pilkie101]

The fact that you can publicly air a debate with this motion tells you the answer. No, men are not finished. In fact they continue to dominate. This should be obvious by the simple fact that in the modern media only strong or dominant groups can be openly criticised. Weak groups can't be criticised, they have to be boosted, included, fitted in and praised for their efforts. If men were finished and women were dominant the motion for debate would have been are women finished.

[@darklord220]

The debate title is fucking ridiculous.

[@GabrielKnight666]

When Hanna said "We want men to accept a broader range of self identity" I almost bursted out laughing. No, that´s NOT what most women want! Most women want a man that fit´s into the traditional male role model: The protector, the man has to make the first step, the man has to be able to feed a family. She is either deluded or flat out lying.

[@s1yc3r]

One simple circumstance... If a guy dates a women, and tells her on the first date, that he is a nurse, what would happen ? On the other hand, if a girl dates a dude and she tells him she is an engineer ?

[@cherritown]

I am an engineer and I would gladly date a nurse. I don't understand why we can't just all get out of this bubble. There are only two genders, but over one billion people. Of course there aren't any absolutes, the war of the the genders is just absolutely stupid. There's so much diversity in all and I would not side with a woman just because she is a woman so I expect men not to talk down about a whole gender just because of some stereotypes. This whole debate is just stupid and topics like this useless.

[@SuckItLily]

God damn. The student questions are so awful. "Academia" in 2013.

[@onlytag1way]

as a man i want a revolution where woman have to go out and be the bread winner, go to war, and run the country. ill stay home working out, doing some dishes, while finger painting with my kids.

[@samdog3946]

If every man on the planet blew off work for a week, the world would implode...if women blew off work for a week, no one would notice lol

[@TJsaysHey]

Sam Dog So true. Every job that is necessary for our standard of living is completed my an overwhelming majority of men. From power lines maintenance to the actual power grid, to the sewer systems, plumbing, harvesting, importation of goods etc. The amount of damage a men's week off could do to western civilization would take years to correct. If women took a week off, it would basically just mean that children get a week of school, and hospitals would definitely be under high pressure without the nurses there, but, without power and water, hospitals would not cope AT ALL. Men finished? LOL

[@TJsaysHey]

MV31313 I never said they can't work power grids, the simple fact is, they don't. Also, I mentioned a lot of things, not just electricity...

[@TJsaysHey]

MV31313 Oh, I can tell by your choice of words that you're not worth interacting with. Bye. Hope you find the internet fight you're looking for.

[@MV-bv8mh]

TJ IsHere You really don't see how your point doesn't make sense? MV3113 is completely right, but I think you see that now and that's why you're backing off. If not i too would like an explanation.

[@SilvanaDil]

+MV31313 - If women did things that required physical strength, it would be at the cost of efficiency. It would take more women to do the same amount of work. As for intellect, men have more variance. Most idiots are men and most geniuses are men. Ordinary men and women can deal with the idiots, and they benefit greatly from the geniuses.

[@208414]

As a male, I agree that men are finished. Women have the skills that western society values most and are making huge strides. Women are becoming vastly more powerful economically and politically while men have begun to decline. I don't really think this is a problem either. That said, the people arguing against the motion here did a terrible job. Their first mistake was allowing the opposing side to define the issue without clearly differentiating their interpretation of the issue. They then proceeded to make statements about the plight of men in the US, only bolstering their opponent's arguments. When the discussion turned to the matter of how to address the problems facing men, it was basically over. It's pretty difficult to argue that men are still in charge and are doing fine and simultaneously call for political action to reverse the state of male economic decline in society. I wish it had been a more evenly balanced debate.

[@jinjitronic7457]

David Schiedler Thankfully women work in construction and mining. I've noticed how many women are on building sites. There are almost no males! Now I can sit back and let women look after me. They can build our cities and collect our resources. It's a good day to be a man.

[@billrhoasts5456]

Men may no longer be in charge, but that's because far too many men are still participating in the system. When men go their own way and refuse to take part, the system breaks down. And this is exactly what is beginning to happen. Lets see how well these empowered women do when men refuse to help them on the street, refuse to marry them, protect them, support them, and in general, refuse to have anything to do with them. Men CAN live alone and make it without women. Women on the other hand are screwed without men.

[@Mysio]

3 children... the woman on the left (pro premise) says she has 3 children. If she had no son among those 3 children she would say she has 3 doughters. Yet here she is debating why she thinks her son is worse than her doughters. Great job at parenting!

[@MichaelRayWegner]

I knew exactly how the debate would end and what results would come from it. It's very easy to win a debate when you metaphorically corner people and put words into their mouth and not give them time to properly defend their stance. The idea that men are finished because more women are starting to flourish in previously male dominated fields, while men fall in terms of earning degrees in education is a huge leap in logic. It's more or less a very black and white perspective of the situation at hand. Life has never been, and never will be black and white. There will be innumerable variables and circumstances that we won't be able consider. Christina showed more intellectual haul in her points, even having to correct her opponents on the statistics they've provided several times. It was clear how one track minded not only the opponents were, but the audience members as well when they tried to make a slip-and-slide accusation on Christina's argument. Her argument is based on research done to provide evidence that we are offering less benefits to boys than we are girls, and that it does not mean men are finished but it means that we are neglecting them. It means that there is a chance to correct that behavior so that boys will no longer be left behind. In the end, I feel the results came from the people in favor of the motion not realizing how silly it is to assume that once someone starts to succeed past another person, it's the end of them. When We as humans start to succeed in our cultural, and technological advances over other species of life, it did not mean the end of them. What became the end of them and the sudden rise in extinction were the attacks made against them. We are now using our advances to our advantage with animal reserves all across the world to help protect these species. And I believe that is evidence enough that it is not the end of men.

[@onlytag1way]

ill agree that men are done when i hear this phrase "the ship is sinking men and children first" lol

[@efishman]

It's amazing to me, as someone who grew up in an Eastern country, how culturally skewed this debate is. Men might indeed be either already finished or well on their way. Contrast the glee on display in this debate on the part of those for the debate motion with the real panic prevailing in China as they now confront the real thing. They realize, as should most people, that a whole raft of men that can't get jobs or laid is not good for anyone, least of all women. Dark days ahead, I fear.

[@birricforcella5459]

Bunk, lady. The only thing that makes women get ahead is preferred treatment. It's gotten so bad, I won't deal with female professionals any more. It's not sexism, it's the painful realization that their competence is woefully under par. If you want to close the gap in ages of dying between men and women - let women go to female doctors. That will reduce their life expectancy quickly.

[@geneholmann3099]

I have to question the intelligence of the audience in this one....

[@50centpb7]

Everybody seems to clap whenever Dan pulls an inaccurate statistic out of his bum.

[@dazbetham225]

100% of power plant operators, distributors, and dispatchers are men. 91% of the nation’s electrical engineers are men. 97.6% of electrical power line installers and maintenance workers are men. 95.5% of water and liquid waste treatment plant and system operators are men. 95.9% of aircraft pilots and flight engineers are men. 98.4% of aircraft mechanics and service technicians are men. 100% of air traffic controllers and airfield operations specialists are men. 100% of locomotive engineers and operators are men. 100% of the workers who operate railroad brakes, signals and switches. 94.4% of railway yardmasters are men. 87.4% of police and sheriff’s patrol officers are men. 96.6% of firefighters are men. 68.8% of Emergency Medical Technicians and Paramedics are men. 65.7% of all surgeons are men. 74.4% of the all computer and mathematical occupations combined workforce is male. 91.9% Computer network architects men. 94.2% of radio and telecommunications equipment installers and repair technicians are men. 98.4% of heating, air-conditioning and refrigeration mechanics and installers are men. 93.4% of garbage collectors are men. 81.5% of security guards and gaming surveillance officers are men. 72.1% of all securities, commodities and financial services sales agents are men. 72.6% of the nation’s CEOs are men. 70.9% of all the general and operations managers. 100% of the nation’s atmospheric and space scientists are men. 78.2% workers in the entire production and transportation occupations are men. 82.4% of all the industrial production managers are men. 97.5% of those that build or extract from the earth in terms of raw materials are male. 96.8% of workers that install, maintain, or repair are male. If men are finished... So are women. That is all.

[@dukekenny9340]

And don't forget 93% of the military are men

[@jeharrington1]

I've watched thousands of debates on many different topics.This was one of the stupidest. OK, yay. Girl power, men are finished.......[time ticks by]......OK men just aren't finished at all actually! But that was totally fun!

[@Liberty969]

Such a fun debate to watch! Good job boys and girls! 👍😀

[@joshbrackelsberg9626]

Men get hit by lightning cause they're outside working while women are inside doing easy jobs

[@cherritown]

I don't understand. Are we all not just people? Why do we have to generalize and have "us vs them?" all the time. Everyone can do what they want damn it and that's that.

[@MusicGuyFK]

+cherritown Because people are dumb as hell. Apparently since women are doing better then before then that means men are done for. Apparently if you own a Mac you must hate everyone that uses a PC. Apparently if you like DC you must hate Marvel. Apparently if you mention that men have issues then you are saying that women don't have issues and you are misogynistic. It's one extreme to the other. People are dumb as hell and we're not as evolved as we think. This is pure tribal mentality at work.

[@billrhoasts5456]

No, we can't all do what we want to because when men attempt to do this, they are called "toxic" for exhibiting their natural male attributes. Men are pushed down and shamed for being men. Look around and you'll see that the proof of this is all around you.

[@sdwone]

Yeah... I think the opening statement here is a valid one... "Traditional male attributes like competitiveness, aggression and risk taking are discouraged..."... As a man myself, I will simply come right out and say it... HELL YES!!! I want such attributes to be slowly, but surely, purged from the male psyche. And any man who thinks these primitive and primal attributes are vital to our sense of self, simply does not comprehend the IMMENSE amount of damage such traits have wrecked upon our planet. From Racism to Slavery, Bigotry to (Male dominated) Religion, Simple Banking to Global Financial Meltdown, living within our means to Environmental Catastrophe... And of course, too many numerous and bloody wars to even quantify during 1000s of years of Human History... So let's face it boys, these traits SUCK!!! And as we progress, it is my hope that men will adapt (just as Life has always done) so that we can exert more and more control on our primitive, sometimes brutal nature. But... Women have to adapt also. This is not just a "man" thing... But a "human" thing... We ALL have to adapt, progress and move forward... Together. Women obviously have a lot of issues to work out as well but, I guess the emphasis is on us men right now, simply because it is us MEN who have created the Earth as it currently exists right now.

[@sdwone]

***** Dude... Thanks for proving my point... Anyway, perhaps you could elaborate as to why you think our primitive male attributes are actually doing our species any good? The way I see it, we're animals so primitive and primal behaviour is part of our nature... However... In today's complex world, don't you think that it's a good thing to try and curb our most primal instincts? In our Nuclear World, such irrational behaviour may only lead to our own destruction... Think about it for a change, rather than react like a typical and primitive mammal ;-)

[@waltermh111]

John Doe He didnt prove your point, but both of your posts proved his point. Your not even thinking, asking others to explain the obvious for you. Stop self hating and learn the utility that our primal sides still provide even today. You want it explained? Too bad, i dont see a person that really cares. Try to figure it all out yourself first.

[@mistajames3213]

If male aggression were the only source (or even a major source) of war and destruction, then women wouldn't perpetrate half of domestic violence, and over two-thirds of child abuse. Fact is, male competition drives innovation and the economy. Whether or not 'male' leadership traits are better is irrelevant. When you compare trained professional graduates, your average man puts in over 30% more work hours than your average woman, and often choose to take the more demanding jobs. Male traits make people more likely to be leaders, and make them more likely to rise above the competition, regardless of whether traditional "female" traits get better results (which is debatable - if successful women were all about sunshine and rainbows, they'd get steamrolled by the men competing with them). Slavery is a result of male traits? Are you kidding? Evidence please. Religion is a result of male traits? Then why are the vast majority of worshipers female, even when the church leaders are male? Why do 50% more women than men report considering religion "very important" in their lives than men? Why are church congregations slanted almost 30% in favour of women? (Gallup 2012) Must be the mens. The idea that men have created the Earth as it currently exists is also ridiculous. A segregation of gender roles in the past doesn't mean that men were specially "privileged" as a class; both men and women were oppressed. Neither had much choice in the matter. Ordinary men were forced to work the coal mines (or doing one of a thousand of other back-breaking menial jobs), and women were forced to stay home. Wealthy women had a life of leisure. A lack of direct involvement in political life is almost irrelevant which 99% of men are also barred any involvement in political life. Saying that either men or women were really "free" or "oppressed as a class" is ridiculous.

[@sdwone]

mistajames3213 Well... You are entitled to your opinions of course, as am I... And you've raised some interesting points ... Too many to address directly at this time (I'll come back to those later!)... But yes, one point in particular is of some serious concern to the current state of Human Beings: "Slavery is a result of male traits? Are you kidding? Evidence please." Mmmm... Where does one begin? Ok... Let me expand upon this because, perhaps I wasn't clear. I was particularly referring to the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade in which, concepts such as what constitutes an "inferior" person from one who is supposedly "superior" were being played out time and time again. One race, one group, one section of humanity claiming, on very weak circumstantial evidence, to be superior to another... Perhaps to simply justify slavery itself for example, IS an act of aggression. Well... What would YOU call it? If I claim to be better than you, simply because, well... I can say it (not quite evidence is it!?) and then I went into your house, robbed you of ALL your belongings and then enslaved you... Is that not an act of male on male aggression? I would advise you to think about such scenarios for a second. They have been played out, time and time and time again throughout human history and, people far better qualified than you or I, have been grappling with this aspect of our nature for centuries. An exchange of comments, on dubious social networks (like KZbin) simply doesn't have the depth, nor the scope, to seriously analyses this issue. But it IS an issue that needs to be seriously analysed because it's still being played out today! I already alluded that women have their own set of problems as well. However, last I checked, War is the Province of Men. So that said, as the male aspect of the species, we do have a tendency to exhibit some of the most dangerous, irrational and primal aspects. Hairless primates, with access to nuclear weapons, should make ALL of us concerned about the influence of our primal tendencies. All I am saying, is that we should at least be aware of it. And of the kinds of damage such tendencies can cause if we allow ourselves to "run riot". Thanks to evolution, these aspects of ours will change and some may even die out altogether. Slavery was once accepted as being totally normal and necessary. But now, you'd be hard push to find people who still hold such views today. Oh, they still exist, but it's becoming more and more rare. Evolution? Yes, of sorts, but not in any classical Darwinian sense. More behavioral adjustment and adaptions to aid in our own survival. Who knows, perhaps this IS natural selection, but just on a more subtle level due to our complex brains. In any case, yes... For me personally, getting to grips with and controlling our primal instincts IS a damn good thing! I have NO issues with sport (plenty of scope for us men (and women) to get out issues worked out without killing each other!) or any other form of competition that doesn't result in an appalling lost of life. So again, notice how we have used the concept of sport itself, to allow us to manage our primal instincts. Anyway, Mother Nature has the final word and we're changing all the time to according to HER will. And since HER will is all about life and the survival of life, if we don't fit into her plans and get with the program then, once we're gone, another species, within a few million years or so, will simply get their shot. We are merely a VERY small part of a much BIGGER picture, primal tendencies or no primal tendencies!

[@mistajames3213]

The forum (KZbin) goes to credibility and weight, obviously. The argument should stand or falls on its own merits, as it does in any other written medium. Not to mention that you have absolutely no idea whether I am at the top or at the bottom of the intellectual food chain. I certainly have never deferred to anyone's authority. If an argument is garbage, I throw it away. As should you. Warriors are men. War is the province of politicians, not warriors. The #1 point in social politics at most points in history had to do with providing benefits to women, usually by way of ensuring their financial and economic security. Slavery was never seen as "necessary". It had to do with dehumanization and in-group bias. In-group bias is far more prevalent amongst women than men. I've never killed anyone, and I'm still pretty damn aggressive. Nor have I hit anyone in years (and even then, it was only once and only in self-defence). I don't think of men as "less male" because they don't get violent; they're just less stupid. War is a human problem. In-group bias is a human problem. You have provided 0 evidence that the cause of these things are male (though I admit, your argument may have been better when the warriors were the ones deciding whether to go to war). I think you should probably scale back that self-loathing a little bit.

[@RanaBOH]

True. Male aggression, while it has its downsides, is probably the single greatest creative force available to humanity.

[@abaddoninimicus2655]

You are very well spoken and enlightened my friend.

[@nfcoard]

You're so right. We do need to learn to love and trust each other. Whenever there is an Us and Them mentality we create conflict and unhappiness for ourselves and others. It's important for all persons of both genders to focus on their strengths and acknowledge their weaknesses so that they can grow and be truly happy. That takes both confidence and courage, which is a part of love. Love becomes aware of something and seeks to express kindness and strength without any judgement or criticism.

[@SaneLiesbuster]

Great point !

[@williamjones7140]

1:39 Great point Hanna!

[@joshbrackelsberg9626]

This debate should have been called, "men are going to be finished by feminists."

[@SumoGambit]

Christina Hoff is easily by far the smartest person on the stage there. OMG how she destroys this halfwitted guy on his non sense assertions.

[@WeNDoRx]

I could not agree more with you. You are right sir !

[@InterintelligenceBlogspot888]

01:37:45 Thanks for quoting grey eminence Henry Kissinger, relating to this issue. Great quote!

[@lenfirewood4089]

Thanks for the insight into the cesspit that passes for your mind but I will stick with what I know and not what you think.

[@ErizaMartinez]

The proposition is not well defined, on one hand their interpretation of the proposition is "male dominance is finished" on the other it's "men in totality are finished". Probably intentionally unwell defined so that it could garner more attention?

[@Alex_Plante]

Hanna Rosin won the debate early on by defining the term "finished" to mean the end of male dominance. The opposite side lost because they never challenged that definition.

[@alienkishorekumar]

Good one :)

[@Masculistfeminist]

Brilliantly said mate, brilliantly said.

[@bionikspoon]

I didn't really learn anything from this debate. The motion wasn't very good; everybody on the panel seemed to agree with everyone else, except for the semantics of the motion.

[@Jagasaurus]

I feel sick after that result, but the two good things to come from this is the ever rising esteem I have for Chistina Hoff Sommers and a new enlightened view of the people working at men's health magazine.

[@kim621100]

I just gave you a thumbs up !

[@Here0s0Johnny]

i really enjoyed this debate. thanks for existing, IntelligenceSquared.

[@jacman117]

I agree.It is an important topic however and I'm not exactly sure a debate does it justice.

[@joshbrackelsberg9626]

We're literally teaching young men that they are women. We don't let them fight or compete or have p.e. it's not that men are losing to women. It's that men aren't even allowed to be men. The education system has been favoring women for decades. We give women a step up and a handicap the whole way through and make it an enders game for men. Of course they'll win if they rig the game enough. Get rid of title nine, female scholarships, gender studies, required pro feminine courses, etc. And women never win.

[@NakedLunch2]

The figure that I've been able to find is that just 1 in 6 degree holders in engineering in India is female. It seems also that the more equal a country is considered the bigger gap there is in term of male and female occupations. In Scandinavian countries, only 10% of engineers are women and 10% of nurses male. That is indeed explained by the right to freely choose pretty much as Christina Hoff Sommers mentioned.

[@tc98826]

One of the main takeaways i got was that this is a very education-focused society. Educational achievment was valued by the 'for' debaters as the most important metric for success.

[@kngzero]

Not to mention the distrust of men. If society is constantly told that men are dangerous to women, children and themselves, then it makes it difficult for men to work in areas occupied by women and/or children.

[@GabrielKnight666]

"Women on average display a lot more maturity than men." ROFL That is comedy gold!!!

[@captnhuffy]

LOL. Love the response!! (and i'm a old-fuker) You da Man, Dr. Fedelbogen.

[@UpTick21]

There is dignity in Anger and it is a legitimate emotion in the face of injustice. It is important to remember that passive acceptance of evil is not a virtue!!

[@BSNFabricating]

A good example of smart people who never finished school would be a man named Smokey Yunick. He quit school at 16 and had to go to work after his father died, then served as a bomber pilot in WWII, and afterwards he opened a shop in Florida where he built cars that won both the Indy and Daytona 500's, and also developed a lot of things that are in passenger cars today. On top of all that, he worked with NASA when they were working on the Apollo project in the '60's. All this without a diploma.

[@WeAreBecomingHuman]

HOW HOW HOW HOW did they convince so many people?! That is the largest swing I've seen yet on this show!

[@kriskal8503]

It was about 3-4 years ago at the end of my undergrad when I read that. I dont' have the time to find it or I would go look. This is why I said I am not sure if it still stands today or not. It was not a study about college males but high school males.

[@correlationimpliescausatio862]

Men are afraid women will laugh at them Women are afraid men will kill them If high heels were so great, men would would keep em for themselves If you're a woman like me and you're depressed, if you find that this panel rings true but are scared by the thought of the rape/death threats and humiliation you would sustain if you admitted it, then know that you're not alone in the world. If you want a safe place to read and think, check out radfem reader. :)

[@MEpianist]

There's a serious problem with this debate because the resolution wasn't defined, they were talking past each other.

[@DonSanchoPanza]

The very fact that a thesis such as whether men are finished or not is debated shows the insanity of the times in which we live. The common sense of Christina Hoff Sommers looses the debate against the intelligent hysteria of Hanna Rosen. Christina is a lot like the character Berenger from the famous play "Rhinoceros" by the Romanian-French writer Eugen Ionescu, who is the only person left in his town that did not turn into a rhinocero. He is trying to argue with the rhinos and he loses. The rhinoceros seem smarter and more handsome than him. He tries unsuccesfully to turn himself into a rhinocero and, after he fails, running out of arguments, he starts shouting common sense insults at the rhinoceros. Feminism is a new type of "rhinoceritis".

[@trythinkingforachange4201]

What bullshit - who comes up with these topics? Just like the TED talks - they started out great and then declined to a lot of BS not worth watching.

[@CapriciousBlackBox]

1:22:10 "by a woman...." despite the claims otherwise during this debate.....very revealing (and sad). Imagine the inverse for a moment.

[@EtherasFox]

This debate was concluded at 5:05 where the woman with the beautifully polished fingernails pushed 4 and then * after being instructed to push 1-3

[@kevinerazocastillo8276]

because of this: 1) men and women are different (physically and in temperament) 2) both groups are now being put in situations when they have to perform the same activities (not in everything, but most things) 3) since they are different, their performances will be different 4) if you have different performances, you COULD say that one group is doing better than the other

[@jamesjefferson2882]

Why Hanna Rosin got destroyed, she immediately retreated her point.

[@mtb416]

That is an interesting argument about why males drop out of college. Could you please do me a favor and supply a study name or link? Thank you, Kriskal.

[@nfcoard]

Your facts and your logic is excellent. I completely agree with you. Finally someone in this comment section that speaks the truth. Could women overtake men? Possibly, given what is happening in our education system and women becoming increasingly prominent in most professions and dominating in some professions. However, women are a long way from holding equal status and opportunities. Will that change? Let's wait and see.

[@darkYT]

Can you even imagine a debate titled "Women are finished" and there is a team that argues that "men are unequivocally better than women"? It would make news headlines, talk shows would jump on it, new laws would be passed and more funds would go to "women's shelters" ...

[@Alex_Plante]

Correction: the other side forgot to mention that. I don't actually agree with Rosen, but I think she won the debate on technical grounds because she successfully redefined the terms in her favor and the other side failed to challenge that redefinition, and also failed to insist on the points you mentioned so succinctly in your comment.

[@fidelbogen]

Women were never "disenfranchised". They were not enfranchised in the first place, so they could not have been "disenfranchised".

[@venusianmoonchild]

2021 watching this feels like the dark ages. Suddenly things like Covid and staying alive have become more important.

[@SoSandvich]

For some reason when men ruled the Earth, women were taken care of and were happier. For some reason now that women rule the Earth, women aren't taken care of and are unhappier. You'd expect it to be the other way around.

[@IIIIIIII]

by the way, the side against the motion are saying that ITS SOCIETY'S FAULT that men are at a disadvantage, because the structure has changed to overwhelming favor women, while making it harder for men to succeed. it's not because women have all of a sudden become smarter. men and women are still the same as they have always been. men still lean towards trucks and guns, while women still lean towards dolls and fashion.

[@matejjjjjjjjjjjjjjj]

you made my day :D so dumb thinking is not seen every day

[@kngzero]

The same goes for the flawed education system. They are ignoring that a lot or men are opting to become entrepreneurs as opposed to engaging in a system where having a diploma is losing relevance. Outside of the medical and science fields, how many careers actually require legitimate certification to do your job accurately?

[@MadDoggMo]

Every time someone brings up, "Well CEOs and super rich entrepreneurs are still mostly men" I want to throw up. That is 1% of the population and has no bearing on the plausible future for the other 99% of us. It's like saying, "Most rich NBA players are black, so black people clearly have an economic advantage in society." The fact that 60% of college grads are women, and that number is rising, is the problem. That affects society as a whole.

[@abaddoninimicus2655]

which factual education should require that there are no time limits, interruption or dismissal of questions and explanations.

[@p1b1harper]

are we all not aware that as women have gained more power and control...we as nation have become poorer and our society has become more broken...yes women are doing better...but it has less to do with personal achievement and more to do with taxpayer subsidy

[@PBSmithy]

Gaining a degree in "English", when English is already your native language represents a complete waste of time. Attaining a degree in your own language cannot contribute in any significant way to society at large. Such is not the case with degrees in math, science, engineering, computer science, medicine.

[@AlpacaNYC]

Interesting.

[@brindlebriar]

You see, the problem for women when men did the out-of-home work and held the power, was that men ALSO were physically stronger and could abuse women, rape, beat, generally dominate. But to assume that the reverse situation would be bad for men misses the point that women, biologically, can not really do those things to men. So, for men, a future of women doing all the work, having all the responsibility and political/economic power, and charged with taking care of us, would be FANTASTIC!

[@ha.alamin]

What does he say at 29:22 after, "three reasons:"?

[@bugsandbrushes]

As someone who choose quite the opposite lifestyle than yours, I'd like to say.I'm happy for you and I could not imagine a thing wrong with your choice even If I'd never wanted to do the same.

[@smhussain62]

Well, you should probably start by getting yourself a human biology textbook and reading the chapters covering the endocrine system and the nervous system so you know how these things function in general. Gender differences in these systems should also be covered and you'll find plenty of cites for key findings there.

[@captainmsc]

For Americans, both men and women are failing miserably in education. How many Americans do you see in Science and Engineering classes in US colleges? While we quibble over whether our sons are better than our daughters, the rest of the world is not only catching up to us but actually is leaving us in the dust. This is the greatest tragedy and one that our grandchildren will have to deal with when the US loses its crown. What do you think?

[@bogdan78pop]

I will try and find out how HITCH another SLATE ...is thinking about Hanna Rosin..!!!!!!!

[@SaneLiesbuster]

Bingo!

[@GabrielKnight666]

Today I met 2 guys I know from my way home from work. The first guy told me that his wife filed for divorce a few weeks ago. The second guy was happy that he can now skype with his daughter after not seeing her for almost 9 years. Marriage must be a wonderfull thing...

[@GabrielKnight666]

I really hope that...

[@doombringerer1]

Agreed.

[@FoetusInYourNoodles]

Fact is, women became the majority of the workforce because they will take less money. When a man is employed, he needs his wage to be able to provide for an entire family, his children and up until recently, his wife. Women take jobs only needing to provide for themselves... That's why the wage gap exists.

[@fidelbogen]

Actually, I hope it doesn't cease any time too soon. We need to collect and archive such statements in great quantity. It is ammunition. BTW, can anybody give me the exact timeline number where that statement was made?

[@lenfirewood4089]

Yes I do agree as it happens :-)

[@0r14n583lt]

The problem with this debate is that the question was poorly defined. Everyone one on this panel, is practically on the same side of the argument. They are simply arguing over semantics. Why, because the question was poorly constructed.

[@Expwnent15]

"Women perform two thirds of the world's work but only earn a fraction of the world's income." I guess 2/3 is no longer a fraction.

[@MrKiwiKerr]

"Are Men Finished" was a poor title choice that seemed to get the debaters caught up arguing the wrong definition. The arbitrator asked, are we at a tipping point from men dominating work roles, or are the rises in (post-)undergraduate women over men just a non-issue. From that perspective, Yes, men are/will be "finished" in dominating any particular role as more women get in to the work force, and should level off towards an equal balance. And yes, the rise of women in school is also a non-issue. There are certain professions that don't require a high-level of education, as the "For Panel" suggested, it's the middle class. There are still firemen, police, laborers, manufactures...

[@SaneLiesbuster]

Yes! sir!

[@fidelbogen]

Well...there is already a *growing* community of men (and women) that understands the problem and is beginning to do something about it.

[@6teezkid]

Dan Abrahms has absolutely no qualifications to even go near this very serious subject. He did nothing but articulate his biases, but stated no true facts and data. This debate CAN be taken seriously only because the side who were against the motion. They spoke solidly on the facts and on current data. Their consistent logic blew the others away.

[@visualscience2502]

well men... looks like we are finished.

[@Yakenjokin]

You are exactly correct! Every power that has risen has done so on the broken bodies of men and fallen on the selfishness of women. While we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it.

[@The482075]

Let me make a few things clear. If women are equal to men (ideal scenario), then men aren't finished. If women are more than equal to men, with men having lost their dominance that doesn't necessarily mean that men are finished. Women are a long way from even being equal to men in terms of status and opportunities. One day women could, cause men to become obsolete. But that is a far fetched idea, that would make a very thought provoking drama.