Mesudiye - Guide 402

The Mesudiye, an ironclad of the Ottoman Navy, is today's subject.
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[@Drachinifel]

Pinned post for Q&A :)

[@thecount5558]

In hindsight were these modernised/rebuilt ironclads (Vasco da Gama, Numancia and Vitoria, IJN Fuso, and the Mesudiye etc.) ever a decent idea or should the money spent on them have been used on other smaller yet more modern ships?

[@themanformerlyknownascomme777]

During the Civil War and subsequent decades, the size and calibre of large fortress guns increased exponentially before the technology brought them back down. However, this was merely for facing off against the top-of-the-line ironclads/predreadnoughts. What my question uitimantly is: for how much longer could a 20-inch Rodman/Dahlgren or 110-ton gun go “Full Blucher” on cruisers and other non-capital ships?

[@bkjeong4302]

Would the Russian and Ottoman Empires still collapse when they historically did if Goeben never joins the latter?

[@Niels_Larsen]

What were the challenges with grapeshot since it was first used in the late 1600's? It seems it would have been the ideal weapon when boarding was all the rage in the early days with naval cannons.

[@rvail136]

As I asked in my separate post, have you ever considered doing a video on the Italians attempts to construct CVs?

[@Max_Flashheart]

You had me at "The Sultan thought finances were something that happened to other people"

[@GaldirEonai]

The best part of it is how little that narrows it down to any specific sultan.

[@kemarisite]

​@@GaldirEonaior, without the title, how little that narrows it down to any specific government.

[@Cholin3947]

@@kemarisite best me to it.

[@davidfernandes920]

I think this mentality is more common amongst politicians than anyone would care to admit

[@orionstrehlow6816]

​@@GaldirEonaiyes, though latter day Ottoman governments literally had their finances controlled by England and France to ensure payments to their international creditors.

[@dimitriosvelessiotis6808]

I remember what was written in my school history (some 35 years ago at a Greek high school) about the naval part of the first Balkan war: "Greek navy led by the battleship (!) Georgios Averof won a superb victory at Limnos battle against the Ottoman navy lead by the battleships (!!) Mesudiye and Hamidiye". I remembered as a student to be really skeptical about the prospect of one battleship forcing two ones to retreat, even if Averof was a new ship. And then (35 yrs later) Drach informed us that Averof was a protected cruiser and the Ottoman ships were just disguised and modernized ironclads. Now this makes more sense... and thank you Drach for all these fascinating stories.

[@Drachinifel]

@@dimitriosvelessiotis6808 Averoff was 'just' an armoured cruiser, but probably one of the best traditional style armoured cruiser, arguably more powerful than some early pre-dreadnoughts.

[@AndrewGivens]

@@Drachinifel I suppose it would be completely reasonable for sources to view Averoff as some sort of 'second-class battleship', given her size and power within her theatre of service (not to mention her build origin and thus the original intent for the class by their commissioners) and the rebuilt Mesudiye would most certainly have been rated a 'third-class battleship' in RN service (whatever a 'third-class battleship' really was other than some kind of 19thC FRAM relic) - albeit she would have scrapped the best part of a decade earlier as an RN unit.

[@katrinapaton5283]

@dimitriosvelessiotis6808 it tends to bug the hell out of me how some people call any naval vessel with offensive capability a battleship. I recall as a kid being part of a group who had to do a write up on New Zealand's frigates and everyone else refused to believe me when I insisted they weren't battleships!

[@notshapedforsportivetricks2912]

​@@katrinapaton5283 You really should stop haning around journalists and other such "educated" types. I feel your pain, my kiwi cuz.

[@misterthegeoff9767]

given I was taught the story at school about the defeat of the "pocket battleship" Graf Spee I suspect that turning cruisers into battleships to make the enemy sound more formidable is a major part of many nations' history curriculum.

[@BHuang92]

One of the most extensive reconstruction of an warship ever!

[@alltat]

Her new upside down hull configuration certainly looks like it should make her immune to any further torpedo hits below the waterline.

[@gokbay3057]

The attempt to turn her into a small pre-dreadnought was really something. (That said, Mesudiye, while also meaning happiness is mostly named after Sultan Mesud much like Hamidiye was named after Abdulhamid.)

[@samsmith2635]

I agree, good effort.

[@odenat3701]

There is no Sultan Mesud at Ottoman Empire. The sultan was Abdülaziz when Mesudiye was build.

[@Dave_Sisson]

It's amazing how many ships the British built for foreign powers that were then used against them, including Mesudiye, Kongo and a few Argentinian ships.

[@rcrawford42]

And she was rebuilt by the Italians -- and immediately used in a war against them.

[@Vinemaple]

I clicked on this guide solely because it was about a ship from outside Western Europe, North America, or Japan. I was not disappointed! More ships from smaller powers, please!

[@aidanfarnan4683]

I love the extensive conversion job.

[@genericpersonx333]

Indeed. This was an era where, as long as the hull integrity was good enough, engineers didn't doubt they could retrofit or refit a ship to remain "competitive" with new-builds. That is why many in the Royal Navy sincerely thought vessels like HMS Warrior could be viable warships even going into the 1900s. Just replace the old engines and guns with modern kit, maybe take off the sails, and HMS Warrior could be cruising the high seas, enforcing Rule Britannia. Ironically, we are doing much the same today. We try to run warships as long as the hulls remain viable, often decades longer than originally intended. We tend to swap out missiles and electronics rather than engines and cannons, but the principle is the same.

[@Niels_Larsen]

An ottoman ship? What a treat.

[@normtrooper4392]

That's quite a transformation! Imagine trying to turn a wooden ship of the line into something like a cruiser

[@genericpersonx333]

More a smaller coastal-defense battleship than a cruiser, but your main point definitely stands. It is a testament to this era of British shipbuilding that the hull was not only still viable after decades of hard service but also amenable to reconstruction AND the armor could still handle some fire.

[@senkronkaymasi]

OK, the correct pronunciation of Mesudiye is "Meh-soo-dee-yea". The last "yea" should be with a short ɛ sound, like in "bet, let".

[@JohnSmith-of2gu]

Russia's second pacific squadron gets all the publicity, but the Ottoman navy is often overlooked for pre-WW1 naval shenanigans. More please!

[@carloshenriquezimmer7543]

well, the secon Pacific Squadron did actually went out ot be silly, the Ottoman Navy just was silly at home...

[@deaks25]

The Italians seem to be the masters at rebuilding a warship to comprehensively you'd be able to convince me it wasn't actually the same ship!

[@1pierosangiorgio]

And at greater cost than building one from scratch it seems!

[@marcomontanarini1836]

@@1pierosangiorgio that was just a good way to profit from the business 😉

[@CastleBravo023]

I love EVERY BIT of content from this era of shipbuilding. There is never enough of this! :-)

[@thecount5558]

The story about the Mesudiye never receiving her 9.2-inch guns is often repeated be she actually did receive and use them in the Balkan Wars (notably in some bombardments). They were possibly removed at a later date due to extensive wear during their use in the Balkan Wars but the Mesudiye definitely received her main guns. Emir Yener (he has written several books about the Ottoman Navy (and several others), I suggest reading them if you have an interest in the topic) himself has confirmed this.

[@Drachinifel]

@@thecount5558 the sources I listed in the video description suggest she did not, always happy to learn more though, what's the book called?

[@kapasvonkapas]

Indeed, Emir is an expert naval historian, the best on Ottoman naval History

[@thecount5558]

@@Drachinifel I don't believe Emir Yener has written a book about it specifically but he did mention it several times. Considering his numerous sources, some of which I believe are the Turkish Naval Archives as well Mr. Sakir Batmaz (a foremost scholar of the Ottoman Navy), during his research as a PhD candidate, I'd says it's quite a considerable statement. There's also the statement from Dr. Umut Çevik's article regarding the modernisation of the Ottoman ironclads in Genoa which makes mention of the 9.2-inch guns.

[@thecount5558]

@@kapasvonkapas quite so. I'm in several groups with him that discuss naval history and his work always appears to be of excellent quality and never lacking in detail.

[@MrKawaltd750]

Ah sources.... What historians trade instead of cards or bitcoins.....😅

[@notshapedforsportivetricks2912]

The town of Holbrook in New South Wales was named after Lt. Norman Holbrook, the commander of the B-11. If you're ever on the highway between Sydney and Melbourne, I reccomend that you pay it a visit. Aside from having a very good submarine museum, it boasts a truly estimable pie shop.

[@markrobinson9956]

I love these Victorian era ships as everything is changing.

[@williamcostigan91]

"We got broomsticks for deck guns!" "Yeah... Maybe it'll scare em?"

[@davidkaminski615]

Jimmy Doolittle: Say, that's an idea!

[@Wolfeson28]

Did they remember to paint them black? Nice reference, btw. :)

[@TylerTitcomb]

You should do more ottoman ship guides

[@HD-np7eb]

I suggest to talk Ottoman Ironclad Hamidiye, an interesting story of shipment and industry

[@agesflow6815]

Thank you, Drachinifel.

[@PalleRasmussen]

"The Sultan thought finances was something happening to other people" You mean Sultan Erdogan? No? How history repeats itself...

[@Arltratlo]

Erdogan wants the Osman empire back...but the people who lived in the Osman empire dont want it back... like the people in the British empire...the Brits dreaming about it and the others see it like a nightmare and dont want the empire back! no wonder, silly island isnt that important anymore, since WW2!

[@samsmith2635]

Dont insult the House of Osman by tagging Erdogan to it

[@Arltratlo]

@@samsmith2635 why not? ....he is at the same place!

[@PalleRasmussen]

@@samsmith2635 I have nothing good to say about either.

[@murrayscott9546]

Except for your pronunciation of the ships name, an interesting production. Thank you

[@CorePathway]

You imply incorrect pronunciation but offer no correction…

[@gokbay3057]

@@CorePathway Turkish isn't pronounced like English most of the time.

[@highjumpstudios2384]

Oh yeah. Been a while since I watched a guide. I feel like this is gonna be a good one!

[@karlbrundage7472]

That "refit" was like taking USS Constitution and turning it into USS Olympia.................

[@WilmarHarder]

Can you do a review on the humaita river shipclass that the italians build for paraguay in the 1920?

[@thehuscarl4835]

Seems strange to me that a country named a warship 'Happiness,' as battles generally are less than pleasant affairs.

[@couplingrhino]

It was named after Sultan Mesud (happiness) who was the guy who thought finances were something that happened to other people, bankrupted his empire, and got deposed and probably murdered.

[@tomhenry897]

Looses in the translation

[@bkjeong4302]

Outside of Goeben I think this is the first Ottoman ship on the channel…

[@Aelxi]

Erin

[@connormclernon26]

@@Aelxiships that actually made it to the Ottomans.

[@Aelxi]

@@connormclernon26 op didn't said that

[@45641560456405640563]

​@@AelxiOh come on.....

[@davidlee8551]

Thank you.

[@warhistory1895]

Honestly, the best thing Drach could do would be the battles on Lake Tanganyika during WWI. It's the sort of crazy ideas and weird ships that he'd love

[@carloshenriquezimmer7543]

There is a vidoe about that battle, and the journey by land up there, in the channel "The Great War"

[@murrayscott9546]

Luv's ya, Drachy ! Vancouver, 4:07, PST. Visit ( or research ) the St. Roch ( museamed here ) . RCMP patrol boat. The first vessel to circumnavigate the Americas ( as far as is known ) . Yo, Canada !

[@VieneLea]

Awesome! I love listening about Ottoman ships!

[@AndrewGivens]

Ottoman ships were the most unfortunate of all: This one was well-designed, well-built, armed and engined, then left to go sour. But that rebuild has always impressed me. Some of the British and French ironclads were the recipients of impressive rebuilds, but nothing quite tops Mesudiye's. A shame about that torpedoing. I believe she was yet another Reed design: Have you done a video about the man yet?

[@lewiswestfall2687]

Thanks Drach

[@Wolfeson28]

"Some shore bombardment that raised mostly dust and morale."🤣🤣

[@comentedonakeyboard]

Naval budgets become more difficult once piracy isn't an option anymore.

[@grondhero]

*Drach:* Poorer choices of name could be made, but you'd almost need deliberate effort. *US Navy:* Should we name a ship John F. Kennedy? *Also US Navy:* We'll take a shot at it.

[@McRocket]

What an interesting career she had. ☮

[@Mwolfi400]

Drachinifel.. I heard the HMS Canopus did some service against the ottomans in WWI. I’m sure she has a great history to do a video on! 🎉

[@garyjordan3914]

How about doing a video on the USCGC Bible WHEC 31 laid down in 1936 and decommissioned in 1980 . A nice long life .

[@belisarius6949]

Truly one of the ships of all time. We can say that it indeed is seaborne.

[@jasonz7788]

Awesome thanks drach

[@Archie2c]

Raising Dust and Morale.

[@behroozkhaleghirad]

The correct pronunciation for the name of the vessel would be Mas-ou-dee-yeh. Named after Masoudiyeh palace, meaning prosperity or good luck.

[@marcbloom7462]

As a tie in, I'd still like to see a guide to the USS Mississippi BB-23 and the USS Idaho BB-24. They may have been on the other side of some of the battles the Mesudiye fought since they were sold to the Greeks.

[@riverraven7359]

While somewhat under utilised I think she had a respectable service, it was hardly the designers fault in the 1870's how different warfare in the 1910's would be. Although failing to install the main battery on a pre dreadnought is pretty stupid.

[@johnfisher9692]

That was an extensive rebuild Wonder if it would have been faster and cheaper to just purchase a new ship?

[@carloshenriquezimmer7543]

Probably no, since they would be in need of a financial backer to anybody to accept building a ship for them at that time, and would end up having to sell away some territories to have the money. This way they kept the hull, steering, and most of the equipment, and possibly sold the scrapped parts and guns. And, they had a half-assed ship, that is better than no ship at all. Building a new ship would take a while longer. But seems that the savings were not enough at the time, because they ended up without the main guns...

[@marcomontanarini1836]

@@carloshenriquezimmer7543 I agree on everything, except that a new ship would take longer. The reconstruction took from 1898 to 1903, but the Italian shipyard probably took its time waiting for the works to be fully funded before completing the job.

[@earltaylor1893]

That’s an impressive career for an ironclad

[@kozansoykal2294]

The i in Mesudiye is pronounced as in input. The u is slightly longer, i is short. Mesuu-diye. Same with Hamidiye, both i's as in input.

[@gordm3527]

Ever done a guide on the Russian battleship Marat? Or HMCS Bonaventure?

[@bartsanders1553]

At this point I'm amazed when I find out there's a ship he hasn't done a rundown of.

[@SeveralWeezelsInaTrenchcoat]

He already did Bonaventure

[@gordm3527]

@@SeveralWeezelsInaTrenchcoat Ty! I’ll look it up. My dear uncle George was a signalman on the Bonny when he was young.

[@Iron_Blood_Enjoyer1933]

Could I request a guide on the successor class of battleships of the Gangut's, the Imperatritsa Mariya class battleships?

[@jamesmullan2809]

What about a video on HMS Glory (Sister Ship of HMS Canopus)? My Grandfather served on her as a RM officer.

[@selimcelik3494]

Mesudiye might be one of the few warships that actually sank another warship (Bouvet) "after" being sunk itself!!

[@fredklein724]

I hope someday you will tell the story of Comander Holbrook and B11 .

[@MushaverPasha]

Ancient transliteration as MESSOUDIEH might be more helpful for better pronounciation

[@crosskoyamayandaytugay3508]

thx :D

[@GrahamWKidd]

The last of the Saturday night trifecta ... 😃

[@ROBERTNABORNEY]

Wouldn't it have been easier to sell her for scrap and buy a new ship?

[@rvail136]

Drach, have you ever considered doing a video on the Italian CVs?

[@FltCaptAlan]

While she was never completed, Drack did the Aquila

[@hansheden]

A thought. How much can you reuild a ship (i.e. take it apart and put new stuff on it. before it becomes a new ship instead of a rebuild?

[@lwaldron9745]

Me-su-su-sudiye, me-su-su-sudiye

[@karlvongazenberg8398]

A ship of miserably life and then striking her enemies from the grave.

[@BlindMansRevenge2002]

Enable engagement with the turks. What could go wrong?

[@dimasgirl2749]

PHOENIX is the worst name for a vessel in my opinion. I have heard of four ships called the PHOENIX and all of them burned to the waterline (yes, that includes IJN TAIHO).

[@bigsarge2085]

⚓️

[@BlindMansRevenge2002]

A naval engagement with the Turks. What could go wrong?

[@18robsmith]

Apart from raising some dust (yer - that figures) and morale (whose?)

[@merlinwizard1000]

52nd, 24 August 2024

[@salty4496]

:)

[@45641560456405640563]

Excellent selection! Been curious about this ship for years. Does anyone know if the wreck can be seen by scuba divers? As in just the outside- not talking about getting into the thing.

[@ethantaylor9613]

This is so sad, Alexa play Ceddin Deden

[@bebo4807]

My uncle Margot brought one of these back after the European war. We would play cowboys and indians in the engine room. Father sold it for scrap in 1951.

[@M.M.83-U]

The OG Italian Rebuild?

[@fightforaglobalfirstamendm5617]

Justice for the Greeks, Cypriots, Armenians, Assyrians, Kurds, Serbs, Romanians, Bulgars, Croats, and Magyar who suffered under their cruelty!

[@na3044]

First!