Met. Jonah Paffhausen: Modernism Cloaked as Traditional - All You Need to Know

His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah Paffhausen, is a retired bishop currently serving a parish in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. He is a graduate of Saint Vladimir's Orthodox Seminary, and was formally the primate of the Orthodox Church in America. Of late, he has been featured on popular Orthodox KZbin channels, he has spoken at Orthodox conferences and events, and is considered by some to be a teacher of traditional Orthodoxy. However, in many of his public teachings, His Beatitude has departed in a variety of serious ways from the teachings of the Orthodox Church. We will see him affirm the sanctity of post-schism Roman Catholic saints, say that the Bible and the Ecumenical Councils contain errors, that Roman Catholics and Coptics have apostolic succession, that evolution is compatible with Orthodoxy, that events described in the lives of Saints didn't actually happen, and more. The viewer will see all of this in recorded video clips that as of the making of this video, are available publicly on KZbin.
0:00 Intro
1:13 Veneration of post-schism Latin “saints”
4:03 Relationship with Fr Seraphim Rose
5:53 Theologoumenon
6:52 Toll Houses
10:17 Evolution
16:52 Margaret Barker
27:03 Apostolic Succession Outside of the Orthodox Church
30:07 Monophysites
37:43 The Immaculate Conception
40:47 Papal Infallibility
43:50 Mysteries (Sacraments) Outside of the Orthodox Church
45:01 Roman Catholicism
49:15 The Anathemas
53:33 Grace and Salvation Outside of the Church
1:00:12 The Infallibility of Scripture and Ecumenical Councils
1:08:28 Orthodoxy as a Prerequisite for Salvation
1:12:18 The Historicity of the Lives of the Saints
1:17:25 Conclusion

[@GentleBreeze1234]

A message for those who may be scandalized by an Orthodox Bishop committing such grave dogmatic errors: Above all, it's important to remember that Orthodoxy and the spiritual life does not depend on any one clergyman and/or Bishop. The most vital thing is finding a good parish and spiritual father, attending the Liturgy, participating in the sacraments, and reading scripture and the lives of saints, all in pursuit of obtaining a spiritual life. There are good priests in every jurisdiction in America, from ROCOR to GOARCH to the OCA. There are some who use the information provided about specific Bishops to condemn all the fellow Bishops of the Church and justify leaving the body of the Church entirely. However, Orthodoxy is not about rationalism. We shouldn't parse through Patristic sources in search of our own flavor of Orthodoxy, else we end up in a jungle of zealotry- i.e., Old Calendarism. There are multiple groups among the Old Calendarists that disagree with one another to the extent they essentially believe the other is on the path of perdition. They may have more unity now that they used to, but this fact remains and demonstrates the insufficiency of their rationalistic approach. To parse through these issues, one should glean wisdom from the lives of the saints of the 20th century and consider what they did in response to these difficult circumstances. In doing so, one will find that, after a certain point in time, the vast majority of the saints stuck with the canonical Church and, other than the claims of certain Old Calendarists online to the contrary, encouraged their spiritual children to do the same. In short, one should not trust the voices of "recruiters" on the internet, but rather those who the Church has recognized the sanctity of who responded to these issues. 0:00 Intro 1:13 Veneration of post-schism Latin “saints” 4:03 Relationship with Fr Seraphim Rose 5:53 Theologoumenon 6:52 Toll Houses 10:17 Evolution 16:52 Margaret Barker 27:03 Apostolic Succession Outside of the Orthodox Church 30:07 Monophysites 37:43 The Immaculate Conception 40:47 Papal Infallibility 43:50 Mysteries (Sacraments) Outside of the Orthodox Church 45:01 Roman Catholicism 49:15 The Anathemas 53:33 Grace and Salvation Outside of the Church 1:00:12 The Infallibility of Scripture and Ecumenical Councils 1:08:28 Orthodoxy as a Prerequisite for Salvation 1:12:18 The Historicity of the Lives of the Saints 1:17:25 Conclusion

[@TheUncreatedLight]

For the salvation section, St. Maximus the Confessor’s position aligns with Metropolitan Jonah. “God forbid that I should judge anyone or say that I alone will be saved! However, I shall sooner agree to die than to apostatize in any way from the true Faith.” - St. Maximus the Confessor (Life of Our Holy Father Maximus the Confessor - Holy Transfiguration Monastery published 1982). Metropolitan Jonah isn’t saying he supports errors of those outside the Church, but that they can be saved despite them. Just like you and I can, because all of us hold to some form of error known or unknown until we become perfect in Christ.

[@akdobbertin]

Amen

[@GentleBreeze1234]

That is certainly how it could be understood, and I agree that this would be an Orthodox way of looking at it. However, I think that the Metropolitan takes it much further when he then goes on to say there "isn't one place" in the Gospels where Christ commands us to "believe exactly as we have been taught". In the context of everything else presented in the video, it seems to me that he is heavily downplaying the importance of confessing Orthodox dogma. He is going beyond merely saying that we need dogma and praxis together, he is essentially saying you can just have praxis without the dogma and this is enough for salvation. To "love God with all your soul and all your mind" includes loving and confessing Orthodox dogma. He is wrong when he says there is no Gospel commandment from our Lord to confess Orthodox dogma.

[@frankschaeffer8153]

The situation of St. Maximos was that there was a near universal fall into heresy of the Hierarchy in the East, but these had not yet been condemned and put under anathema by an Ecumenical Synod. That is why he, having fled communion with the heretics, did not arrogate judgement to himself. When it comes to the heterodox, we are speaking of people who have been born and spent their life outside of the Church. In this case, there is nothing in holy tradition that indicates they will be saved. It is of course possible that they may be saved, which is something some Saints have said. But as Fr. Seraphim said: if there is a way of salvation to them, then his has not been revealed to us. When Met. Jonah says that it is not required to believe "exactly as you have been taught" then he is sharply diverging from Orthodoxy. When he says we must not judge or criticize, he is also far off. Of course it's not up to us to judge their eternal destiny, but we do judge their heresies and their status of being outside of the Church.

[@jungestboomer7631]

HTM are schismatic heretics, not sure if I’d trust anything they publish

[@pavlosmelqui5087]

Not only, he LITERALLY said that Francis of Assisi is a Saint...so, he not only makes a simple and innocent conclusion about the state of these people, he categorically states that they can be saints...If you are familiar with the Orthodox theology knows how absurdly heretical this sounds.

[@OrthodoxChristianTheology]

The patronizing of Dr. Barker, who is extremely heretical, is most concerning. Fr John Boddecker dealt with this in immense detail. I've also done a treatment.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

I didn't even include, in the interest of time, every clip I had of him citing her. She is, as he himself says, his favorite Old Testament scholar.

[@joachim847]

No one should be accepting the conclusions of _anyone_ without discernment, Orthodox or not. Neither can we afford to ignore someone like her just because she's not "one of us". That's like trying to do Canadian geometry; there is no Canadian geometry! We have to weigh the validity of her theories, and their implications, for ourselves, and I for one am not qualified to do it. Meanwhile, she's convincing a lot of people I respect. Do you discuss her ideas in a video, or in an article? I'd like to see it. She's gaining popularity, so I agree we better not ignore her. If her reconstruction of the pre-exilic Hebrew tradition is correct (and I think it probably is) it doesn't undermine Orthodoxy the way it does Protestantism 🤷‍♂ It also doesn't undermine the Mormons, of all things. We gonna let all the Barkerites go be Mormons, Craig? Is that what we want? 😉

[@GentleBreeze1234]

@@joachim847 one cannot correctly interpret the Scriptures without being organically united to Christ's Body, partaking of the purifying and illumining energies of God in the Mysteries. Someone outside of the Church cannot understand the Scriptures, it is impossible. They may get certain facts here or there right, broken clock is right twice a day. But they cannot touch the spiritual essence that the Scriptures are an outflowing of. To think we can look to heterodox scholars for interpretation of the Scriptures is to completely misunderstand what the Scriptures even are. We pray every day, "in Your Light we shall see Light". The glory of God, His Light, can only be seen by those who are in this Light, who have been initiated into the experience of God, which is only possible in the Church. The Prophets had this experience, and the Church Fathers share this common experience and thus understand. Those outside of the Church cannot understand.

[@joachim847]

@@GentleBreeze1234 You mean united to Christ's body like Met. Jonah is and like I am? I think you're completely wrong about him, is what I think. Sorry man, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness. I'm not in a cult with an _a priori_ "infallible" authority, and restrictions on what I'm allowed to read. If Orthodoxy is correct, and it is, we're not gonna break it by reading a book.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

@@joachim847 Not merely united outwardly, but also inwardly, also synergizing the grace through the ascetic life. To be sure, many in the Church choose to not activate the grace that is given to them, to not struggle, to not follow the holy Fathers. The point I'm making is merely that this opportunity is not available at all to those outside of the Church. So we should not look to the scriptural interpretations of the heterodox. Nor should we assume anyone who is merely nominally Orthodox, or anyone who holds clerical rank, is therefor automatically trustworthy either. We should seek to follow only those who are Orthodox and who themselves follow the Holy Fathers, and are connected to the living tradition of the Church. So, as demonstrated in the video, while he is a Bishop in the Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Jonah very clearly fails the criteria of following the Holy Fathers. The way you're looking at this is very strange. There are so many Orthodox books in English, why waste your time with heterodox biblical scholars who get all kinds of things wrong. If you have a terrible spiritual disease, which we all do, why waste your time going to untrained quack doctors? It's very much like if you had cancer, or some other serious physical ailment. You have the clear and guaranteed source of healing, why even waste your time with untrained doctors who are, as it were, outside of the Medical Association? It has nothing to do with what you're "allowed" to read. You are perfectly free to eat junk food every day if you want, you're "allowed" to do that. But don't except to be healthy if that's what you choose to fill yourself with.

[@Death2Compromise]

I don't know what's scarier. The fact that a bishop is teaching this or the fact that these types of modernism's are insanely common even locally.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

"When the Son of Man cometh, will he find faith on the earth?" There's a quote I really love from St Nektarios. He is being asked why he remains in the Church despite being persecuted by his own brother Bishops. He says: "Woe to me if my faith depends on men." We must remember why we are Orthodox. We're here for Christ, because the Orthodox Church is where Christ is. No where else. Whatever sins the sick people in the Church may be infected with, Christ is still here. And the Lord will always manifest Saints in every generation to guide us.

[@johnnyd2383]

There is no such a thing as "retirement" for the Bishops. In reality, that is the way to depose Bishop w/o disgracing him.

[@LukeGarrow]

The vain musings of men are dust in the wind compared to the Eternal Wisdom of the Saints, Glory to God!

[@christophjasinski4804]

Not surprised at all. No reason to expect anything from western converts, who were formed at St. Vladimir‘s and OCA. There are a few exception.

[@NoeticInsight]

Most heretics are cradle Orthodox.

[@JoshuaTreePark2002]

Ahh man that sucks

[@CadeLand011]

I really had no clue the retired Metropolitan was this unorthodox

[@-kyrieeleison]

"Brothers: it is later than you think. Hasten, therefore, to do the work of God." - St. Seraphim Rose

[@Death2Compromise]

Lord have Mercy! ☦️

[@SilouanWright]

St. Seraphim Rose indeed!

[@3devdas777]

I have heard many people express these concerns about Met. Jonah over the years but this video does a very good job summarizing his errors in contrast to the teachings of the saints. I’m sure there is enough material for a video that is many more hours long, but this addresses well the main problems.

[@MaximusWolfe]

Vladika is not perfect. He is far from being the problem. Overall he is a great, saintly man and defender of the faith. This video could be far more charitable given His Eminences great contributions to the stability of Orthodoxy, especially in the states.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

@@MaximusWolfe Did you watch the video? I am not sure how he could be called a defender of the faith. What faith is that? It's certainly not Orthodoxy.

[@SilouanWright]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@MaximusWolfethere is nothing more contribution worthy than our faith, which is tied up in the dogma and cannot be decontextualized from it in any way, shape or form. God only looks at our good deeds, when they are done in FAITH. No correct dogma, no faith. This is why our saints and martyrs DIED, rather than budge on any dogmatic teaching. This isn’t about being perfect or any moralistic platitude you’re trying to pass off as Orthodoxy. One who does not have correct dogma should not be teaching. God is not amused or placated with our good deeds when we deny the teachings of ALL our contemporary saints.

[@AlyoshaBosha]

Lord have mercy

[@OrthoCarpenterGuy]

It hurt to hear him bring up my Patron St. Nicholas when he tried to make his point about the lives of the Saints. Lord have mercy. I listened to many of Met. Jonah's lectures and probably heard some of what was clipped in this video but did not realize it how many blatant errors he espouses. Basil's hexamoron.. Evolution is theolegoumenon?? Mark of Ephesus and Gregory of Palamas, and what Jonah said about Rome?? Theophan, Ignatius B, Justin, Nikolai of Serbia, Fr. Seraphim, May we have the prayers of all of these Saints and of the Mother of God.

[@T_Wozna]

What should be concerning as well is that clergy have written to the synod of ROCOR MP with the documented false teachings and the synod has brushed it off/completely ignored it. Good video. Sad to see so many justify these teachings.

[@yeembus]

It's worth mentioning that, when it comes to sensitive issues within a synod, there is always additional context that people on the internet won't have access to. Universally portraying the ROCOR hierarchy as though they don't care about Orthodoxy enough to do something about this is a pretty irresponsible thing to do.

[@Lok0Yoko]

​@yeembus if what you are saying is true then the synod would have taken action

[@Lok0Yoko]

​@@yeembusyou essentially saying that the synod somehow has plausible deniability, separating all of these details, on top of what has been addressed by others, from the synod. That is not how the administration of the Church is supposed to function.

[@Kingdom_enjoyer]

@@yeembusif the ROCOR synod did anything to correct the falling away of metropolitan Jonah it would in turn all also apply to patriarch Kirill . thus they will do nothing. also I’ve heard bishops on the synod say that nothing will be done because the majority don’t care…

[@T_Wozna]

@@yeembusDid ROCOR MP learn to remain silent in the face of heresy before or after they fell under their own anathema? People who have eyes to see can see it for what it is. I hope you do as well.

[@MrCharlieC23]

All hail Margaret Barker 😂 Thanks for bringing my attention to this. May God correct this man.

[@Buecherwurm_8]

Are there others to look out for?

[@yeembus]

While I've had concerns about Met. Jonah's views for a long time and it's necessary to discuss them, it's worth noting that there are people who will use and are already using this video to support Old Calendar groups like the GOC, which are becoming more prevalent and more frequently discussed online. Hence, it may be prudent for you to elaborate on what people who could be scandalized by this information should do with it, else you're potentially exposing a lot of people without sufficient understanding to recruiters for loosely canonical groups. This may further intensify with this video in particular because of a very loud falling out that happened between a minor clergyman and Met. Jonah last year, which resulted in the clergyman leaving for the GOC, practically becoming an official apologist for them, and vitriolically opposing those who fight heresy within the Church. Although it's possible I'm overestimating the level of impact that this would have, you should still provide some loose guidance or you could easily lead someone down the wrong path.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

I agree, if you want to write something, I'd be happy to pin it. There were a lot of similar concerns in the comments section of the Elpidophoros video and I tried my best to stress that Bishops are not the Church and we must remain in the canonical Church regardless of the sins of the Bishops.

[@aaronc44852]

​@GentleBreeze1234 regardless of the sins or the heresy? There's a big difference between the two. I appreciate that you have made the effort to call out these particular hierarchs who are promoting heresies, this is an act of love and in emulation of the Holy Fathers. You will find however, that your clergy, for the most part, are reluctant to do the same. They will rant and rave about ecumenism all day, but they will rarely call anyone out.

[@yeembus]

@@GentleBreeze1234 Sure! Should I send it as a reply here or make a new comment? Not sure if you can pin a reply

[@GentleBreeze1234]

@@yeembus reply here and i will copy paste it and post it in the pinned comment

[@Kingdom_enjoyer]

It’s important to recognize and not leave out that the clergyman you are referring to was given a blessing from bishop Luke (rocor) of Jordanville to leave rocor and join the goc… same bishop has also publicly stated he believes the goc to be perfectly canonical as they were in communion with rocor for many years, has blessed whole parishes to leave rocor and join the Goc, has many many Goc publications in his bookstore including ones from the clergyman you are referring to, and is good friends with metropolitan Demetrius of the Goc…

[@TylerNGOakley]

do you have a link to the list of quotes about toll-houses?

[@GentleBreeze1234]

I would recommend getting the book 'The Departure of the Soul', compiled by St Anthony's Greek Orthodox Monastery.

[@SilouanWright]

@@TylerNGOakley also, Google “orthodox wiki tollhouses”. Multiple SAINTS confirmed this teaching, including St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, St. Theophan the Recluse, St. Justin Popovich, etc. The wiki will explain. I’m absolutely certain that book is fantastic, but at the same time, this is what our saints teach. Multiple of them. No canonized Saint says otherwise. So, it’s true.

[@theorthodoxapologeticschan9378]

Isn't there an icon of Francis of Assisi in New Skete?

[@Death2Compromise]

And Clare of Assisi

[@NonSequiturAdHominem123]

New Skete is a lil sus. Waiting for someone do to a video on it

[@nikolaibaughman8828]

There is. Along with paul the 6th, archbishop Ramsey of the church of England, fr. Alexander schememnen, and others.

[@theorthodoxapologeticschan9378]

@@NonSequiturAdHominem123 If I had a dollar for every year I heard people say "ooh you can't trust New Skete" while they are still in good standing in the OCA I'd have $25

[@NonSequiturAdHominem123]

@@theorthodoxapologeticschan9378 dang it, the wife posting for me again

[@CadeLand011]

Metropolitan Jonah, when putting forth and advocating for the "invisible" or "spiritual" Church theory, which has mainly been promulgated in these last days by Protestant ecumenists, contains no support in the writings of the Saints, but actually finds itself condemned. He is not merely stating we do not know the fate of those outside the Church, but rather he is advocating for an entirely different ecclesiology than the Church Fathers.

[@Cyrus_II]

Regarding what he says about lives of saints: Any event that takes place, even in your own life, has an infinite number of facts and details. For you to recognize and remember an event, your mind has to filter the facts and gather them together to form a narrative. There is a condensation that is necessary to recognize and remember events. When we are talking about events in the past, that condensation and idealization is stronger, especially because it needs to be relevant to people in the future so it has to shed idiosynracitc details and perhaps even add details, and emphasize references to other similar stories that make the story make more clear. Once again, this is something you do when you want to describe your day to someone but at a more basic level. None of this changes the fact that these stories took place and are talking about events, it's just not described at a forensic level of detail. Because once again, nothing can really be described in this completely neutral forensic description. Any description is going to involve a process of filtration and idealization, so if we use this standard to say something didn't happen, then we can't say anything ever happened. I would say we must take these stories at face value‌, and accept the text that has been handed down to us, and not be concerned about the mechanical details of "what really happened.." I think that this is what Metropolitan Jonah might have meant. I don't disagree that these events are icons, but we must emphasize that they are still events.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

It is very clearly not what he meant, he says there in the clip that the extent of the suffering of the martyrs is exaggerated. There is a big difference between the condensing of a narrative with fabricating and exaggerating a narrative.

[@Cyrus_II]

@@GentleBreeze1234 Ultimately, I think it's useless and misguided to ask whether it was exaggerated or not or "what really happened". We must humbly receive the text that is handed down to us as long as it doesn't contradict previously established doctrine and tradition.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

@@Cyrus_II You are very gravely mistaken. It does absolutely matter whether the events described in the lives of Saints happened or not. We see this very clearly from the video where I have included quotes from Fr Seraphim Rose, St Justin Popovich, and St Barnsanuphius of Optina. Met Jonah explicitly says in the clip that he does not believe that there are Saints who actually abstained from milk during fasting days as babies. This happened for example in the life of St Symeon the New Stylite. This is a denial of the power of God, why can't God do this? The Lives of Saints, as St Justin Popovich says, are a continuation of the Book of Acts. To doubt them ultimately leads to doubting the New Testament itself.

[@Cyrus_II]

You misunderstand me, I’m saying they happened.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

@@Cyrus_II OK, then we both disagree with Metropolitan Jonah.

[@SeraphimvanHelden]

Reg Margaret Barker, people do not have to go there- Father Stephen the Young has a much better take on Old Testament Theology, Second Temple Judaism etc. and elaborates on similar things and from an Orthodox perspective at least.

[@vladislavstezhko1864]

His Emanence looks like a kind man. Very sad that he has adopted such an approach.

[@Admiral.Buttercup]

Thank you very much for your work. Helpful and necessary.

[@buzzard777]

Wow, eye-opening. Had no idea. Thank you very much for posting this.

[@justingrimmond8224]

It might be helpful doing an additional analysis of the following hierarchs: Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, & Archbishop Alexander Golitzin, Archbishop Lazar Puhalo, etc.

[@theorthodoxapologeticschan9378]

AND he refers to 869 as the 8th Council. Clownworld all around us

[@DrKlein-ir6nq]

Lord Have Mercy. At 1:09 he literally sounds drunk as he teaches error. This is not meant as a "gotcha" or a personal attack on Met. Jonah, more of an honest evaluation of what im seeing with my eyes as Christian witnessing this. There were so many errors and seeds of doubtfulness sown here. Lord Have Mercy.

[@xtremefight]

Thank you for sharing this. His thumbing his nose at Orthodoxy is more than I can stomach.

[@joachim847]

Here's my lost comment, with some additions. I understand your point about connection to the living tradition, really I do. I pray to St. Sophrony of Essex nearly every day. And I read him, because in St. Sophrony I recognize the mind of Christ. The same mind which was in St. Silouan, and is now also in Archim. Zacharias. I've never had the opportunity to receive a blessing from any of the fathers from their monastery in Essex, but I want to. I make an effort to submit to what St. Sophrony says, because I trust him and I love him. More than once I've changed my mind because of St. Sophrony, and I'm not at the moment aware of anything he's said that I don't agree with completely. Most importantly though, he helps me fight the passions and he helps me pray. Have mercy upon me. Corrupt in soul and body, let me not fall away from Thy Truth to set foot on another, alien path. This same St. Sophrony, when his nephew Nikolai wanted to join him in the monastery, advised him to get an education from Oxford first, presumably because he had the temperament for it. Scholarship is an essential aspect of our tradition, and we do not, as a whole, have the option of ignoring everything everyone else is saying. More than that though, the scholars I love are the ones who help me love God more. People like Leslie Newbigin and N.T. Wright, who are not Orthodox, nevertheless say true things that help me love God. These same scholars are also moving people of a certain temperament toward Orthodoxy. Those of us who are interested in Margaret Barker think she's on to something that can help us love God more, and bring people into the Church. Of course she's getting stuff wrong too, that's how scholarship works. It is yet to be determined which of her ideas will be accepted by the Church and which will be rejected, but interest in her may be more widespread than you realize; and among people who are more traditional than you can recognize. You may be aware, for instance, that the scholarly consensus about Dionysius the Areopagite is starting to crack, thanks to recent scholarship. What you probably don't know, is that Margaret Barker's work is helping us demonstrate the authenticity of the Dionysian corpus. "There's still work to be done" as she would say, but imagine the benefit of having everyone, all the protestants, on board with Dionysius the way they now are with Ignatius of Antioch, because of good scholarship the reformers didn't have. I realize that in order even to consider her ideas, you have to be several steps down a scholarly rabbit trail about the history of the text of the old testament. You may think it's unfaithfulness to our tradition to investigate such things. I think it's necessary for some of us, of a certain temperament, and know I for sure helps us love and trust God more. EDIT: I got a KZbin notification while I was working on this comment. Turns out, it was for an N.T. Wright video entitled, "Wisdom Incarnated | Proverbs 8:22, 30-31 | N.T. Wright Online", if you want to find it. The way he talks about Wisdom as a traditional Anglican in this video is an example of why we love him.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

@@joachim847 It's one thing to get historical facts and research and so forth from heterodox scholarship. It is quite another thing to get theology and Scriptural interpretation from heterodox scholarship. It is quite another thing to regard a heterodox scholar as the foremost authority on the Old Testament and to recommend her books that teach heretical ideas. I take your point, but Metropolitan Jonah is not doing what you are describing. He is promoting Barker wholesale, heresies and all, as a foremost authority on the Old Testament. Not just on historical facts but on theology as well.

[@joachim847]

​@@GentleBreeze1234 Indeed. The book you show him recommending is _Temple Theology: An Introduction._ I've read a lot of her stuff, but not that one yet, so I got two; one for me and one for my father. They'll be here tomorrow. It looks like an overview, and I'm curious if it conforms better to Orthodoxy than some of her other stuff. Not that HE Jonah is quiet about what he thinks, but maybe he thinks that particular book is safer than others. That would be a pleasant surprise. We need scholars, pastors, and bishops. Scholars are expected to be obsessive; they are hit or miss. Pastors are expected to be discerning; your piety is his responsibility too. And bishops are expected to guard the faith. In those terms, one might say HE Jonah is obsessive like a scholar, hit or miss, and lacking in pastoral discernment. A bishop is also a pastor after all, responsible for a frightening number of souls. Perhaps he's falling short of pastoral responsibility. My contention is that regardless of that, he does understand what it means to guard the faith. I'm willing to accept that you see problems I don't see, but I think I'm seeing problems you don't see too. Maybe for you, our tradition is a collection of conclusions. For me, our tradition is more about the process for reaching conclusions. If we come to alien conclusions, something went wrong in the process. On the other hand, sometimes people get the idea that if they memorize all the conclusions, they can dispense with the process. That's an enormous red flag, because the ultimate conclusion of Orthodoxy is union with God, and that in itself is an endless process. Orthodoxy has to be prayer and education together. If not for all of us in the same way, it must at least be represented by pastoral types and scholar types, balancing each other's concerns. I happen to think HE Jonah is doing the right thing by being honest with his conclusions. Margaret Barker is my favorite Old Testament scholar too, and I didn't get it from him. More than that he's putting it all out there publicly, with the result of me and you having this conversation. He's pointing out her hits, and I _want_ other bishops to point out her misses. Perhaps they'll be forced to do that now, thanks to HE Jonah; and thanks to you as well. So far the only criticism of her work that I can find is a tautology; she's not Orthodox, her work is "very heretical". Well, that's a shame but we don't actually need her to be Orthodox. Her work is popular for a good reason; she's definitely on to something. What we need is bishops to address what she's actually saying and why. If they can't do that yet, let's get more scholars on it. I _want_ someone to tell me where she's wrong, not just to tell me she's dangerous.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

@@joachim847 I am not sure where you are getting this whole idea of "scholars, pastors, and bishops" are these three distinct pillars of the Church. You are drawing a false separation between these things. Someone cannot be pious and also a scholar? Someone cannot be holy and also a scholar? Of course they can! We have so many examples of holy scholars who we venerate in the Church. Many examples of scholars who are not "hit or miss", but who faithfully communicate and pass down the patristic tradition. Metropolitan Jonah understands what it means to guard the faith? What faith is that exactly? He certainly doesn't guard Orthodoxy. Our tradition is a living tradition. Our tradition is not "the process for reaching conclusions". Our tradition is Pentecost. All truth was revealed at Pentecost and there is nothing to be added or subtracted to or from this truth. You seem to be approaching this from the stance that I think is so deeply problematic, that is also taken by Metropolitan Jonah. You both seem to view Orthodoxy as a set of ideas. If Margaret Barker is your favorite Old Testament scholar, then I am not sure what to say, your favorite Old Testament scholar is a heretic. If you don't see how dangerous and unhealthy this is, I really don't know what to say to you. Metropolitan Jonah endorses Margaret Barker wholesale, everything. He doesn't ever say that she gets anything wrong. He recommends her entire corpus of writings and constantly holds her up as an authority, moreso than he does Church Fathers. Bishop Luke of Syracuse, as mentioned in the video, endorsed an article that was put out by Holy Trinity Seminary that goes into the heretical teachings of Margaret Barker. It's already been addressed. Metropolitan Jonah was in fact told by the Synod of the ROCOR to stop teaching Barker's ideas, and yet he continues to do so.

[@joachim847]

@@GentleBreeze1234 I may be reading scorn into your words that you didn't intend. I've been doing my best to convince you of my sincerity, and to use reason to show you my perspective. I think that if you'll look back at my statements, you'll find the answers to most of your questions about them, if indeed you're looking to understand me. I remain convinced that I understand what you are saying, but either you don't understand me or you're not trying to. Seems like you're not trying. Either way, I'll have to leave you alone about all this now. Perhaps you should contact Metropolitan Jonah, and he can explain it better than me. God bless you 🙏

[@Cyrus_II]

Very sad!

[@Death2Compromise]

🙌 👨‍🍳🤌

[@NightShade671]

While I agree with this video, you argue from silence a lot. Arguments from silence don't prove anything. Like when you said you are not aware of any Orthodox saint saying that that non-Chalcedonains have apostolic succession. That's an argument from silence. Fr. John Whiteford argued from silence a lot to, in his discussion with Fr. Joseph Suaidan.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

@@NightShade671 it is not an argument from silence, because the consensus is very clear, and there aren't even any Saints at all who diverge from the consensus on many of these issues. The Saints are not silent about these issues at all.

[@NightShade671]

@@GentleBreeze1234 I don't think you understand what an argument from silence is. The saints were not silent, but some arguments made in the video are.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

@@NightShade671 which ones? The example about the monophysites you gave is not an argument from silence.

[@NightShade671]

@@GentleBreeze1234 I am not sure you understand what an argument from silence is. Whenever anyone says they are not aware of anyone saying something, or believing in something, that is an argument from silence, because it argues from the silence of the person being used as an example. But just because one is not aware that someone said or believed something, that doesn't prove that the person actually didn't believe or say something. Perhaps they said it in a source unknown.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

@@NightShade671 that's not the argument I am making in the video. There are no Saints, to my knowledge, that express belief in monophysites having Apostolic succession and there are many Saints as well as Ecumenical Councils who say otherwise. I don't think there is a single Saint who diverges on this, but even if there was, it wouldn't matter because we follow the consensus. I simply said I wasn't aware of one because I am leaving it open to the possibility of there perhaps being one Saint who had a strange opinion on this. It does not matter, because we follow the consensus.

[@MaximusWolfe]

Vladika is not perfect (his stance on evolution has always concerned me). However he (unlike Pediphoros and his like) truly loves Christ, His Church and is an outspoken opponent of abortion, sexual deviancy, statism, humanism, communism and other liberal positions. He also refused to impose mask restrictions at his Church in Stafford Va, during the Covid madness and prohibited the use of masks by those serving in the alter. This was a rare exhibition of faith during a time where anyone in the Church (especially leaders) who would not succumb to the state/media concocted fright was treated as an unfeeling ghoul. Moreover, he lead me to the Orthodox Church through his classes and is in most ways a pillar of the faith in the world today. I think there are far, far more problematic and, indeed, infinitely more pernicious persons with influence in the Church that this content producer would do well to examine and expose.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

Roman Catholics, Protestants, and even Muslims also have the same views on all of these social issues. So what? You won't be saved just by having the correct views on social issues while otherwise not confessing the Orthodox faith. Having correct social views does not make someone Orthodox. Arius, Nestorius, and most of the great heretics of Church history would have also agreed on these social issues. Metropolitan Jonah teaches numerous very very serious heresies and we hope that he sees this video and repents.

[@MaximusWolfe]

⁠​⁠@@GentleBreeze1234 Obviously my point was that unlike men like Pediphoros, His Eminence does not make or hold to errors out of a desire to achieve a more worldly sense of popularity and political leverage. Nestorious and other Heriarches did not teach error as opinion but as truth so it’s a terrible comparison. Are you saying that capitulation to liberalism is not an issue of concern in the Church. That’s totally absurd.

[@MaximusWolfe]

@@GentleBreeze1234 Furthermore, I find it strange that you’re willing to go out of your way in criticizing Elpidiphoros for taking “progressive” positions on those issues but are loathe to mention them to Vladika’s credibility. Take your foot off the gas and get some perspective. Metropolitan Jonah is the least of our woes at present.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

@@MaximusWolfe I think that for these reasons that Met. Jonah is in many ways more dangerous than Elpidophoros because he presents himself as traditional. One cannot just hold conservative social views and otherwise totally diverge from Orthodoxy and think that this is a path to salvation. This is very dangerous thinking. As we see from the video, the teaching of the Saints is clearly that we must confess the Orthodox faith in order to be saved. Good works without right faith cannot save us. The fact that we have other Bishops who are departing from Orthodoxy in more extreme ways does not make any other departure any less serious. The fundamental root problem with both Met. Jonah and Archbishop Elpidophoros is that they both place their own opinions above those of the Saints. The root problem is the same, the manifestation is different.

[@3devdas777]

@@MaximusWolfewe are to follow bishops to the extent to which they are faithful in upholding the canons, councils and teachings of the saints and Fathers; not to the extent that they are just not as bad as some other bishops. I think this video shows that he follows his own opinions and not the teachings of the saints, which is extremely problematic regardless of whatever good qualities he has. This video actually just scratches the surface and doesn’t address all of the other significant problems with Met. Jonah.

[@Unseen_warfare.]

“A careful reading shows that this is precisely what the canon demands, for it labels hierarchs who promulgate heresy as "pseudo-bishops" and "pseudo-teachers." Such language can only mean that it is these bishops who have "divided" the Church; that is, they have fallen away from the Church. For this reason they are no longer bishops at all, but "pseudo-bishops": bishops in name only. To put it more simply, if they were true and Orthodox bishops, then they would not be false bishops. The fact that the canon resorts to such strong language mandates the Orthodox to separate from the heretical "bishops." For in order to belong to the Church, one must be under bishops who themselves are part of the Church.”- Bishop Maximus of Pelagonia

[@BodilessVoice]

God bless you. Thank you brother.

[@sethtrey]

My brother in Christ who cares what you think?

[@GentleBreeze1234]

We should only care what the Saints think.

[@SilouanWright]

@@GentleBreeze1234 amen.

[@frankschaeffer8153]

Are you willing to do an honest investigation into the ecclesiology of Venerable Fr. Seraphim (Rose) of Platina?

[@SilouanWright]

@@frankschaeffer8153 if you’re talking about Toll Houses, multiple saints have confirmed that teaching. No investigation necessary.

[@frankschaeffer8153]

@@SilouanWright ecclesiology is the doctrine of the Church

[@TruthBeTold7]

This is not everything you need to know. My articles get into more details. For example, Met. Jonah accepts the Documentary Hypothesis of the Old Testament.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

@@TruthBeTold7 Yes there's certainly a lot more that could have been included, this video required watching hours and hours of Met Jonahs lectures which was, frankly, very unpleasant. But I felt that what I included was sufficient to demonstrate the point beyond any doubt.

[@almedhamorton4369]

I can stomach no more @ 20:20. Just as when I first heard him......

[@sampyle9445]

What a nasty viper. Lord have mercy. May he come to repentance and understanding

[@TruthBeTold7]

I exposed Metropolitan Jonah years ago, and even wrote two articles on him. He clearly violates the Vincentian Canon.

[@Jd-808]

Really like what I’ve seen of this guy. Good to know he’s not a reactionary fundie

[@sofiebult]

Who are you trying to kid?

[@iakov1906]

He's successfully showing what a a horribly unOrthodox heirarch Metropolitan Jonah is. That's what he's trying (ans succeeding) to do

[@iakov1906]

Great video. Comment sectiom reeks of soy though

[@GentleBreeze1234]

@@iakov1906 so many people defending the Metropolitan, trying to say I have no authority to be doing this, or that I'm taking His Beautitude out of context etc etc. But when I ask how exactly am I misrepresenting or taking him out of context: silence. When I ask someone to explain to me how the clips shown here aren't heretical: silence. Everyone just wants to attack me personally or to go into other distractions but none of his defenders actually want to address what the Metropolitan actually says on video.

[@iakov1906]

@@GentleBreeze1234 its also the soy mindset of thinking you're not allowed to call out clergy for heresy or liberalism, even though the canons and saints demand us to. That it's somehow prideful and prelest to notice is

[@GentleBreeze1234]

@@iakov1906 there is certainly an unhealthy way that one can go about it. But to say that there isn't any healthy way to do it is also wrong. We have so many examples from Church history. The false union of Florence, there were laypeople who even physically beat up the Bishops who had signed the union. And the Church does not seem to view this negatively.

[@Dlee-eo5vv]

Modern theologians te nd to be students of scholars than od God.

[@johnstdm1]

Father Jonah most certainly does not hold that Roman Catholicism is some form of equivalent faith. I have personally confessed to him on multiple occasions and have a Catholic wife. He has told me that I am free to attend mass with her, but that under no circumstances may I commune. This may not be the ultra-dogmatic position that keyboard warriors want to see, but it's pretty clear that he doesn't recognize the validity of their sacraments.

[@WishingForRain]

"Canon LXIV: If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated" - Apostolic Canons "Canon XXXIII: No one shall join in prayers with heretics or schismatics" - Council of Laodicea

[@GentleBreeze1234]

Did you watch the video? He explicitly says that Roman Catholics have Apostolic Succession and that they have real baptism. He says that "the core dogmatic theology of the Latin Church with the exception of the filioque is pretty much identical." He likewise says that we have "virtually identical" sacramental theology. I am not your spiritual father, but the canons of the Church say that an Orthodox Christian is to be excommunicated if they attend the services of non-Orthodox.

[@Death2Compromise]

​@@WishingForRainYou are uncharitable for reading the Churches canons, how dare you! (joking)👍

[@TheMhouk2]

@@GentleBreeze1234 there are a number of eastern saints that have the same position on the latins. you really need to become Orthodox and not be a crypto protestant ("just read the scriptures and the saints/fathers")

[@johnstdm1]

@@GentleBreeze1234 I wish you many years. I'm afraid that this time you spend making videos "taking down" people whose hearts you truly don't know won't yield the fruit you hope it will. Look him up online, find a phone number for him, and talk to him. He's open to these things. See if he really believes what you're accusing him of. If he does, don't attend his church. If he doesn't, repent of your error in judging others.

[@frankschaeffer8153]

The same Fr. Jeremiah Trenham also calls Junípero Serra "blessed," i.e. he calls him a Saint. The same Junipero's disciples tortured and killed St. Peter the Aleut.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

I don't know anything about that, but if he said that, then he's wrong. The inclusion of the clip of Fr Josiah is not an endorsement of everything he's ever said, I just thought he gave a very good explanation there and so that's why I included it.

[@aquiladavid5681]

@frankschaeffer8153 You need to provide proof of such a slanderous claim. I’ve watched the majority of Fr. Josiah’s online content, met him in person at a conference where I listened to his presentations, and I’ve read his books. I have not seen him once praise Junipero Serra. *note also: I am Native American and venerate St. Peter often. I would have noticed if Fr. Josiah had denigrated St. Peter’s martyrdom.

[@orthodoxos1971]

In essence, Metropolitan Jonah is an unbeliever and does not fear God.

[@akdobbertin]

Much ado about nothing. Shockingly mediocre compilation of bad takes for someone with tens of thousands of hours of public teaching over the decades as Master Jonah has.

[@Joshua-ch2ij]

Master?

[@akdobbertin]

@@Joshua-ch2ij Protect, O Lord, our Master and High Priest

[@Joshua-ch2ij]

@@akdobbertin oh okay I see now apologies

[@MaximusWolfe]

I tend to agree. Obscuring Vladika’s voluminously informative and truly Orthodox teaching in favor of the minutia of his least compelling opinions (which he never mentions as dogmas) is the worst sort of triumphalism. Metropolitan Jonah isn’t perfect. Metropolitan Jonah has never claimed to be perfect. He is one of the most humble men I’ve ever known. He is a great man in my experience. I’ve seen the not so great men in vestments more than enough to know the difference.

[@orthodoxphronesis]

@@MaximusWolfeI don’t think this video was made because Valdyka isn’t perfect, but because he’s promoting things literally contrary to the Orthodox Faith, and has been continuing to do so, despite peoples voices concerns, and continues to teach catechumens his beliefs, and continues to expose those looking into the faith to these erroneous beliefs. I think it would not only be a lack of love to those he’s teaching, but to the Metropolitan himself, to act as if there is no issue. Forgive me.

[@TheMhouk2]

new crypto protestant channel just dropped I see.

[@devinlawson2208]

Epic. Totally out of context quotes to go after Metropolitan Jonah. Get out of here.

[@GentleBreeze1234]

What specifically do you think was out of context? How specifically do you think I have misrepresented the Metropolitan's teachings? I do not want to misrepresent anyone, as this is a great sin. If you tell me, I would be happy to remove anything from the video that is inaccurate.

[@buzzard777]

Out of context? Are you seeing what I am seeing?

[@christophjasinski4804]

LOL

[@stevencooper3202]

This apparent holy father doesnt look like he fasts all that often

[@nikolaibaughman8828]

Lets not be unnecessary mean. Health problems and aging happen to monks also. Let's leave it at what he says, not about how wide his waist is.

[@stevencooper3202]

All the elder monks I know aren't morbidly obese. They also don't spout postmodern heresies. The two are connected. In this video, I view a father who is in an apostatic state. The widening of the belly contributes to the widening of heresies.

[@nikolaibaughman8828]

@@stevencooper3202 That a horrible take. You attributing spiritual realities to a physical situation you know nothing about, seems like an unjustifiable judgment to me. Maybe you should ask the "elderly monks you know" if judgment of someones size is becoming of a christian. Spoilers, it isn't. Let's let heresy be heresy and fat be fat. The whole OrthoGymBro thing about body building is fake and unorthodox. Being fat is not a sin unto itself. If there are passions behind the fat, sure, personal sins happen and someone might get fat from those. But WE don't get to judge him for his personal sins. WE only get to point to his heresy.

[@yeembus]

@@nikolaibaughman8828 St. Leonid of Optina was morbidly obese towards the end of his life because of an illness.

[@YoungPenitent]

What will be topic of your next video?

[@GentleBreeze1234]

I'm open to suggestions!

[@iakov1906]

​@@GentleBreeze1234 I think you should do Patriarch Kirill or Metropolitan Nicholas (the short haired, primped Nicholas of the Moscow Patriarchate)