Michael Lewis with Malcolm Gladwell: The Undoing Project

Bestselling author Michael Lewis and Malcolm Gladwell examine how a Nobel Prize-winning theory of the mind altered our perception of reality in Lewis' book The Undoing Project. Recorded December 12, 2016, at 92nd Street Y.
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[@jessieadair]

I did not feel time pass while listening to these two fascinating people. That surprised me. I'd forgotten how great it feels to have my mind fully engaged by a conversation taking place. I'm grateful for the experience and for the video being easily accessible. Thank you!

[@etcetraetcetra3173]

My new philosophy in life I learned from this lecture: 1. Do only what you want to do. 2. Have a "what can they do to me" rule.

[@markcarey67]

I love how Michael Lewis completely shuts down Malcolm's attempt to psychoanalyze his choice of subjects

[@robertsmith7108]

2 of the greatest literary minds of the day. Genius having Gladwell interview Lewis -- popcorn for the brain!

[@genevievering7999]

Could you please add subtitles so that the deaf and hard of hearing can watch this video?

[@83fireworks]

I love these two together! It´s mental nirvana! Long live them!

[@071949]

Joana, I agree. Almost like eavesdropping on a conversation between a couple of smart guys sitting behind you in the restaurant than an interview. 12/24/2016

[@83fireworks]

For sure! And it´s hilarious how Lewis paternalize Gladwell. ;)

[@MCAndyT]

+

[@truthlivingetc88]

so you are the kind of dude who pretends to be interested in your friends while fishing for smarter people with your ears ? is that really a great thing ?

[@lc9245]

Gladwell is quite dangerous, because he asserts his conclusion before looking out for research. He might be very intelligent with intriguing ideas, but his ideas in his works are presented to be almost unscrupulous. Meanwhile, Lewis is much more of a curious guy who's curious about human's judgement flaws, with a human side to them. To me, Gladwell makes you feel smart, while Lewis just makes you feel.

[@robertsmith7108]

I watched for the 4th time last night..... These 2 are brain candy when they get together, and like an old married couple. Gladwells' needling of Lewis is so entertaining. Two of the best literary minds of the 21st century... Didn't realize Lewis is from NOLA

[@benhenschel171]

My two favorite modern nonfiction writers! Love this so much.

[@titusp9488]

got to love both these guys ... such nerdy / smart people .... makes your brain think.

[@rosebudsandy4892]

I watched it twice soI wouldn't miss anything...loved every minute of it!

[@CemilSinasiTurun]

One year passed since this last comment by me below and I still think this talk is as good as the book they are promoting, if not better. :))

[@marniefriedman9564]

Great talk! I Love Lewis’ style. I have all of his books and cannot choose a favorite. I enjoyed each one and can not wait for this one!

[@koenpoort]

I believe Malcolm is forcing Michael to introspect by provoking him. To draw Michael out of his comfort zone. That, in a sense, to me, parallels the central story of Dan and Amos' friendship in The Undoing Project.

[@GinaGreenlee]

For me, what Malcolm is talking about in his "grand organizing theory" of Michael's writing is Jungian - universal narratives of mankind that are part of the collective unconscious. Michael is either not getting that or is playing at resisting it. This is my first time watching these two converse and I agree with Joanna Mendes who commented two years ago, that "these two together are mental nirvana." Malcolm is an introspective person and he writes from that place, seeing a deeply internal human narrative in dynamics that may, on the surface present more externally. He's made a career of that, as he's clearly owned at the top of this conversation when he attempts to unify Michael's book-writing career with his theory. That Michael self-identifies as not-at-all introspective is the creative (and interesting tension) at the top of this video (I've not yet watched the whole thing). Though I am much predisposed toward Malcolm's view (I've read only one of Michael's books and am not familiar with him as a public personality), I'm gleefully anticipating the rest of this repartee between two thinkers who seem to share great mutual respect. BTW, the book I read of Michael's is "Moneyball." I couldn't give a gnat's gonads about baseball. What interested me about this book is the very human central character of the very real life Billy Beane. The most fascinating aspect of that book for me, the non-baseball fan, was in fact all of the INTROSPECTIVE aspects of humanity Lewis reported on in the book. That's why Billy Beane's story matters to me as does his very introspection about the nature of what makes a winning baseball team that lead him to his strategy. So odd that a man (Lewis) who claims to not be introspective wrote such a deeply introspective book. Fascinating.

[@praveenrai6965]

Two great authors, hugely gifted story tellers, and I tell you what, this is hugely entertaining as much as it is an intellectual feast. People waste so much time watching dumb shows on TV, they don't know what they are missing...

[@dimplegeorge8801]

Is it just me or is Malcolm Gladwell a superb interviewer? He knew what he was doing and he got pretty much what he hoped for. Plus got us hooked from the start and kept us engaged till the end.

[@MC-br1gk]

I love these guys! Such rich and fun conversation. Thanks Michael and Malcolm!

[@NVRAMboi]

This was brilliantly, intimately and personally done. I very much enjoyed it and learned some things from it.

[@frankguinan9927]

I LOVE the dynamic between these two amazing authors. They kind of toy with each other in jest, but they’re both so good with words that it’s a joy to watch. I haven’t read everything they’ve both ever written. I have read “Outliers” by Malcolm Gladwell, and I absolutely LOVED it! He has a way with words, and he’s clearly a very educated and thoughtful man. I haven’t read anything by the other guy (sorry, I can’t recall his name), but I LOVE this conversation! It’s very interesting and awesome! You can feel the mutual respect, but at the same time, they kind of mess with each other in ways. It is a very honest and intriguing discussion overall. Kudos to both of them.

[@shahzadzafar71]

Michael Lewis is such an engaging character

[@CemilSinasiTurun]

Man, this is the best talk I have watched for a loooooong time. I enjoyed the book and Lewis is a fav writer, I read all his past work. Gladwell is a super smart colleague, and probably his sole match in the world. And so, this video is a gem with entertainment value comparable to the book itself. And I am dead serious in this comparison. :)

[@seanwebb605]

Michael Lewis is by far the better writer. Malcolm Gladwell is guilty of popularizing academic papers, while getting the conclusions wrong. Gladwell writes what he thinks could be. What he thinks should be. If it could be and it should be then it must be so. Which is a real problem.

[@071949]

Sean, I don't disagree w/ you, but I confess that I still enjoy reading Gladwell; guess it is like eating potato chips: you do it even though you know it is not good for you. 12/24/2016

[@seanwebb605]

RogerC Yeah, I can't seem to keep my hand out of the bag either. I think a pride in Canadian writers is drilled into every Canadian like Jesus into Catholics.

[@brainsareus]

Ml's, gratuitous defensiveness, was both silly and irritating.

[@513Hulk]

There are tens of thousands of Americans more intelligent than Gladwell, Carol. Few scientists take his work seriously. His skill is as a story teller.

[@opadennis]

Excellent interview. Light bulb moment - much of our success and failures in life is "accidental." Chance plays an important part of our lives but it is up to us to either seize the moment or get past it.

[@nocynic]

"Luck is the residue of design."--Branch Rickey

[@truthlivingetc88]

just by chance I got here. now what do I do ? how do I seize this moment ? shall I start a vicious comment brawl ?

[@nicolarossini1938]

This video does for the mind , what steroids do to the muscles. One of the best book I have read and one of the best conversion I ever listened.

[@Yotrek]

The moment at 25:03 shows how well two friends know each other. “Here we go” is Malcolm knowing instantly when he sees a glimmer of mischievous in Michael’s eye.

[@pulmo1]

It's a joy to listen to you guys.

[@askbob2009]

great conversation

[@creativeideator]

While Malcolm has his own ways to interview people, he only tried to gain meaningful information from Michale Lewis but he is actually not able to have an introspective view of things and is actually defensive about it. THAT is the reason Malcolm is going hard at him. Not because he's a bad interviewer per se, but because he's not following the traditional scenario where the interviewee can "PR" his way out with descriptive and "storytelling" answers - an exercise Michael Lewis is obviously excellent at.

[@hansvetter8653]

Great talk! I love such mind "fight" between such great interlectuals!

[@Panos__P]

So funny these two 😁! So nice conversation!

[@KemptonLam]

15:31 I finallly finished The Undoing Project. Few years ago I watched this chat and now watching it again gives me so much more appreciation! 17:37 Danny just live up the hill. 22:08 Michael to Malcolm: "You are absolutely right!" But are they? I respectfully disagree. I say "Chance favors the prepared mind." - a quote I love by Louis Pasteur. 23:05 Michael thought Malcolm would be a better writer to write the book! Now, how cool is that for two great writers to think like this! K's Note: Of course, Michael is, in this case, because of his connection and friendship a better fit. 37:05 Danny's Nobel phone call.

[@infoanalysis]

two great authors speaking about two great psychologists

[@jawadjahid7526]

Two of the greatest modern time authors _ true legends!

[@davidwilkie9551]

Checking with my copy of Outliers.., this is the conversion of two Masters of presentation that combines the characters behind Thinking Fast and Slow with 10k hrs experienced Intuition becoming Actual Intelligence cause-effect by absorbtions and fits with actual logarithmic condensation wave-packaging coordination and Eternity-now Conception of real-time Actuality. Thank you very much!

[@buzzkett]

The book (Undoing Project) is beautiful work.

[@rosemarieholt2261]

Buzz Kettles I’m definitely going to have to read this again bc I hated it.

[@michaelpellegrini4811]

Wonderful. Also view the KZbin interview with Regis McKenna, who, like Gladwell, read all the boring stuff in the early days of Silicon Valley.

[@chameleontoo]

"The Undoing Project" is about the collaboration of Kahneman and Tversky on "Prospect Theory", not the Theory of Mind.

[@traviswilliams4669]

So Michael Lewis is so nonchalant about others lives that he tells this story with pride.

[@shakthidhasan4544]

If it wasn't these two are extremely good friends, this interview could have gone a totally wrong way ❤

[@justgivemethetruth]

An odd thing is that there seems to be no video of Amos Tversky on the Internet, or at least on You-Tube. He was supposed to have given all these brilliant talks - and yet there is not one thing we can watch to give us an idea of who he was and why people held him in such high regard?

[@CemilSinasiTurun]

Great insight about himself (around 11:00) from Lewis: The subjects of my books find me! I do not go out and look for subjects.

[@truthlivingetc88]

you found one. me. I`ll get back to you with a title.

[@lessonsobserved]

This is awesome. The only way to make this better would be to get Thomas Sowell up there with them.

[@Bigaphid]

Michael Lewis' comments at 1:05 about writing in peer-reviewed literature is right on. I am a practicing scientist, publishing 'papers' and reviewing the papers of others. It's brutal and he's write about the focus on fear and lack of empathy for the reader. Anyone else agree?

[@tylerwest5623]

Bigaphid maybe if you knew basic grammar

[@rosemarieholt2261]

What science if I may

[@habibbialikafe339]

@@tylerwest5623 yeah I didn't really understand what bigaphid was tryna say

[@michaeleaster1815]

6:18 Astute viewers will note that Lewis' latest book, "The Premonition", has a female as a lead character (Dr. Charity Dean). She is a public health officer, which is perfect for those of us in Canada (where the majority of prominent health officers are women).

[@bbqtom1400]

I had to read Thinking Fast and Slow twice. Good back that makes you think.

[@Bigaphid]

"Its a great sign that this is complicated enough to be mis-intrepreted." Good one , Michael.

[@waywardmind]

I really wish I'd been there. So exceptional.

[@truthlivingetc88]

but you were Wayward you so were

[@frankmaitland1254]

This is my second time through this interview it's awesome. Lewis is so irritated that Gladwell tries to figure him out.

[@FinanceVector]

Oh! This was so funny!!

[@DevinWoodruff]

Malcolm's shoes...

[@rosemarieholt2261]

He reminds me so much physically of a brilliant guy I worked with I always want to call Ed after seeing Malcolm

[@michaeleaster1815]

I hope to live in a world where cat videos have 40k views and this has 50m views. Wonderful.

[@truthlivingetc88]

no way. this is good. but don`t diss the cat vids bitch.

[@user-yg2jf8kq4b]

Agree but the world we live is not that civilized sadly and is filled with people that are not intellectual.

[@bicyclingaround8405]

5 mins in, I feel like Gladwell makes for a weird interviewer.

[@bicyclingaround8405]

actually, after the first 7 mins or so, wasn't weird at all. Pretty engaging.

[@hankbenson7535]

Karthik. Two gifted story tellers dancing with familiar partners. They both have this “Asbergers stutter” like many smart people -trying to keep with their own thoughts.

[@DELL.ACNT.]

I really liked it actually. They challenge each other and go deep, and then back to baseline. Rinse repeat.

[@dominickukla]

Yeah he pushed past rapport. But the maturity with which they stick to their interests and convictions is astounding. They moved past it.

[@malcolmwong5109]

MIchael Lewis is a channeler. That's how stories find him.

[@theshadowsnose869]

Brutal

[@Bigaphid]

West-central Illinois is not the middle of nowhere, Malcolm, just ask James Bennett Stewart. (Morry has a 217 area code. 217 in the house!)

[@CalebBrandalise]

09:20 's "no one wants a business man running for president." lol

[@ANashai-jb1ze]

is it just me, or are they really funny? I absolutely LOVE Gladwell. He's one of the most attractive men I've never met:)

[@terryhau-my1nx]

there's a 3rd rule:...." now, what shall we do now...!...and when, where, how....and to whom.....! "

[@Artcarnie]

Malcolm's relationship with the New Yorker makes it hard for me to want to share. Have some pride.

[@rosemarieholt2261]

Michael Lewis is obsessive about facts & reality & Gladwell likes extrapolation & trying to put together concepts that aren’t really valid. Weird collaboration, but works on their podcast so far.

[@so5782]

It's good that Michael Lewis has to answer to very basic criticisms in a way his hero Tom Wolfe never did

[@willmpet]

Then what story is "The Fifth Risk" and "The Premonition"?

[@manueljesuslunareyes7330]

Michael Lewis books look interesting

[@rosemarieholt2261]

He reminds me of John macPhee as a chronicler but funnier & closer to peoples lives.

[@efanshel]

23:30 Wall Street is a C student environment....Amusing and true...

[@imanimalaika7734]

It would be luck if he lived in the South Side of Chicago. Let's face it, his income puts him around these types of people.

[@habibbialikafe339]

So ur saying his career is a factor of his own hard work and success which puts him in places to be more successful?

[@chameleontoo]

The comment by Michael about Danny'a fallibility is erroneous in the sense that the original reason for Amos being interested in pursuing Danny for discussions after their initial meeting [Amos was an invited speaker in Danny's class] was the fact the Danny was [probably] the first person to call Amos out on anything, and Amos was hooked.

[@philswaim392]

People try to hold up biblical narratives as if theyre original somehow and everything is derivative to those ideas. Rather biblical narratives are derivitive from human experiences which only shows why so many things can harken easily to biblical narratives. Because human experience is common, repeatable, and even inherited generation to generation. Human experiences cause the bible, the quran, vedas, and other scriptures

[@PMA65537]

Daniel was not young in the den of lions - after being captured by Babylonians he's not with the lions till years later under Darius. This puts a dent in Gladwell's theory of Lewis.

[@habibbialikafe339]

Obviously they are crap comparisons and he is reaching. Don't waste your time

[@circinus7781]

Pretty funny what Michael Lewis says about Hollywood and Academia (starts at 1:03:30 mark)

[@imanimalaika7734]

If you are writing about the movers in finance, you will be writing about white males with the exception of Brad who is Asian. The high rollers also tend to think outside of the box. You write what you know.

[@Ephilates2024]

I cannot believe how many people in the comments here liked this interview. I just felt empathy for Michael Lewis that he had to endure Malcolm Gladwell, who was acutely annoying and wasted the opportunity indulging his silly and somewhat offensive theories about Michael Lewis' writings. Lewis' book is excellent and highly recommended. The work of Kahneman and Tversky is deep and important and Lewis' book gives readers even greater insight into it. Too bad Gladwell was averse to exploring their ideas here.

[@truthlivingetc88]

Statistically cherry picked ad hoc postulations about the thought process which a teenager could have made up have potentially rendered the Nobel Prize an obsolete thing. Yes I thought you would agree with this.

[@justgivemethetruth]

Oh yeah, me too .... Gladwell thinks he is a little boy and can get away with anything by doing what he thinks is cute ... and it is revolting, and offensive.

[@Btn1136]

justgivemethetruth offensive? Do better.

[@justgivemethetruth]

Having just finished the book, and also have read and re-read "Thinking Fast Thinking Slow", I really wonder what was the need to Lewis's book? It's not that it was bad, but compared to the real content it was not really even a book, it could have been a lecture or article. Both Kahneman and Tversky are fascinating people, and the information in TFTS should be drilled into every human being's head from birth, but do we really need to know every nuance of their relationship, without ever really knowing it? After reading all that book I am not sure I learned anything about the how or why two people collaborate effectively, or the how or why the people grow apart and even antagonistic to each other.

[@narcissistically2461]

Not to mention The Tipping Point was fucking awful and they are so not on the same intellectual level.

[@jpenneymrcoin6851]

mike: "wouldn't it be great if academics were useful?" malcolm: "uh"

[@TheDavidlloydjones]

They cross their legs away from each other (and Lewis starts quibbling at everything Gladwell says) about four seconds in...

[@AnnaMishel]

gladwell’s writings draw huge inferences with limited data, and he’s doing that to you.

[@CemilSinasiTurun]

What is the brand of Gladwell's sneakers? Anybody in the know?

[@dwight4k]

i1.wp.com/itsallstyletome.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Malcolm-Gladwell-Venice.jpg

[@dwight4k]

DC shoes

[@jwgolding]

They are called On Cloud they are superlight running sneakers. Malcolm is a big runner as you may know.

[@dwight4k]

+jw golding Thanks. I went searching for the brand. I knew that I didn't have the right one.

[@CemilSinasiTurun]

Thanks JW.

[@valis14]

Actually, Michael Lewis is pretty wrong about the Hollywood -- most people in Hollywood, especially in above the line positions (producers, writers, directors), we spend WAAAAAAAY more time talking/taking meetings/pitching about projects we're TRYING TO GET MADE then campaigning for awards... we might spend more time doing that than actually making them. There's an argument to be made, solid, that there's an inordinate amount of time spent on these endeavors, a major time suck. A studio movie might take 1-2 years to make from pre-po to post, but it might've spent 5, 6, 10+ years trying to make it through the ranks of development hell to get there amongst an array of people. So yeah, not quite right there, yet an insightful conversation.

[@dreamingrightnow1174]

The Blind Side is exposition (for those not on the blind side) of the white savior complex. How is it that Gladwell misses this?

[@rosemarieholt2261]

Oy how did I miss Trail Fever?

[@rosemarieholt2261]

This is on the dullest campaign in recent history so I’m looking for that Michael Lewis magic touch

[@AnnaMishel]

Gladwell makes sweeping generalizations. And all Micheals books have words, and they’re all in English . . So what?

[@LuisOrtiz-cf3bt]

si algundia asen una pelicua yo quiero aserla con ellos 4 el entrevistrador el entrevestado el amigo del entrevistado y el difunto del el eltrevistado x por 6 idiomas inelprtado

[@user-xj9re7gv5g]

22

[@rhettbickley9097]

Skewed by the skewer.

[@stefanpettersson8315]

Well, I don't really have much comment on the subject; I like both these guys.. Just one thing 'bout that shortest IQ test.. I'd say this is actually the shortest and most definitive one: "I regard as idiots only those who judge people from any other respect than whether they are idiots or not." It's really the only standard you'll ever need..

[@titusp9488]

In a trump and Hillary world ... it’s nice to see smart people talking

[@truthlivingetc88]

roll up roll up ! free intelligence for all of you. don`t miss out on the chance to get ahead ! you too can get a life ! and these giants will show you how. don`t waste time. the answers are all here. all here ! roll up !

[@justgivemethetruth]

Having just finished the book, and also have read and re-read "Thinking Fast Thinking Slow", I really wonder what was the need to Lewis's book? It's not that it was bad, but compared to the real content it was not really even a book, it could have been a lecture or article. Both Kahneman and Tversky are fascinating people, and the information in TFTS should be drilled into every human being's head from birth, but do we really need to know every nuance of their relationship, without ever really knowing it? After reading all that book I am not sure I learned anything about the how or why two people collaborate effectively, or the how or why the people grow apart and even antagonistic to each other. As I re-read TFTS I also noticed that some of the experiments that they described never really explained how they statistically came to the conclusion that these conclusions were true. Just for example in the book they talk about how if you prime your average person with symbols that make them think about old age they will walk down the hall slower as they leave the lab? I think there is a lot to the idea of priming, but they even admit if you have a certain mindset or reaction to the framing it might make you do the reverse - i.e. walk faster. We are finding out all these hacks/exploits about humans at a time with huge inequality - it seems the question to me about all these ideas in the TFTS book should be applied to social engineering or at least politics instead of these endless inane stories about these guys working here, there and everywhere and what their co-workers and friends inputed they were going through. If they were so smart they should have had tons to day about the raw nature of people and how we can standardize our interactions to maximize positivity. That is also along the lines of what Gladwell seems to concern himself with, and yet all he did was joust with Lewis as if he was jealous that Lewis was more successful than he. I am glad I got and read the book, but honestly I did not really get a lot out of it.

[@juanl6401]

Please

[@bogi18]

31:33 I googled the underwear model. Just, wow... their disappointment at the sight of Michael must have been crushing

[@sghibha]

bogi18 Lol! I did the same. Hilarious

[@habibbialikafe339]

Link?

[@brainsareus]

Does ML think, that unconscious drives don't exist?

[@habibbialikafe339]

Maybe all of the links are just bulkshit and he easily debunked them. He knows Subconscious drives exist, but gladwells suggestions were dumb

[@ekaberdzenishvili5599]

Lewis sounds too angry and boring with his “serious” image. Malcolm shines compared to him, with his smart and profound comments and open-mindedness. Love him!

[@habibbialikafe339]

Malcolm is just childish... That's prob why u like him

[@stephenmarkley7968]

0:44 twss

[@snowonmars3520]

Malcolm pushes him and Michael says he's not a moralist, because he doesn't think that way. Which is true. I think Michael is that kid in the playground that just loves to get the bully and the hero to fight. Sure, he wants the white knight to win- but not to set the world straight. He just loves the fight.

[@narcissistically2461]

The theory he created in his mind of Lewis' work, and how wrong it is, is very reminiscent of how Gladwell drew ridiculous conclusions from little evidence in his own work.

[@AnnaMishel]

it would be better If Mr Gladwell buttoned his shirt.

[@emiliog.4432]

Gladwell is saying that there’s nothing new. Lewis resists the truth. It’s all good. Lewis needs to chill. Just a little humility. Please.

[@azadrasheed497]

Who's Danny who's Amiss? Yes they are psychologists.But who are they?Americans?Canadians?

[@rosemarieholt2261]

Black man asks white man about about white men. Black man looks pretty white but he knows he’s not & so does Lewis.

[@burgwhich7706]

Malcolm Gladwell along with his books is really wasting a lot of time. He calls it "career analysis". Explore the central point of Lewis's work would be time better spent. Personally find Gladwell's books much like thomas friedman complete garbage under closer scrutiny. Main criticism being "is this topic even worth exploring?!!" Lewis on the other hand is proper journalism.

[@513Hulk]

Hear hear. The Tipping Point deals with a subject I studied for over 30 years; it's nonsense. So is Blink and David and Goliath--just silly, really.

[@habibbialikafe339]

@@513Hulk I read David and Goliath, why is it nonsense?

[@fern10011]

Malcolm, don’t be a noodge!

[@springhillgolfer878]

Gladwellian gibberish, as always.

[@mikesavatar3194]

LoL :D

[@lindamerry7738]

Thoroughly enjoyed the Undoing Project and hearing Michael Lewis. Gladwell is a horrible interviewer; completely distracting Michael. Wish he would have stopped talking so much.