Great Climbs: Messner 1980

[@alexkalish8288]

Anybody accusing Messner of lying about one of these climbs doesn't understand the man at all. This was the greatest alpine climb of all time by a wide margin. The route is difficult but very scientific as you point out. I admired his climbs of the most difficult routes in the alps years ago and he just kept getting better - a real master.

[@chreinisch]

two Yetis met at the Himalaya, on said: yesterday I did see Messner. The others response was: so he really does exist.

[@benwinter2420]

A penguin took his car in to get fixed at a workshop & then went across road to an ice cream shop while waiting . . the penguin came back and the mechanic said . . you blew a seal , the penguin replied , no I had an ice cream

[@frenchfree]

one aspect of messner's 1980 climb is that he discovered a window of weather during the monsoon described to him by yak herders. He timed his ascent for that. That in itself was innovative.

[@SilverJ56]

I can add nothing but my fascination, enthusiasm, encouragement and possible $ for photos to your endeavor, Michael! This is a great video! Thank you!

[@lukycharms9970]

I can’t believe how invested I am in these stories as someone who is not even a climber haha. I love these videos

[@kamakaziozzie3038]

Same here. I think it’s because Michael is such a great storyteller. His voice, timing and dry humor make for an excellent viewing experience.

[@santiagotorres7777]

Makes two of us. I can't get enough of these mountaineering videos. I will never get close to any mountain, let alone an 8000m one. I'm fascinated by these men and women who have the courage to climb these beasts if mountains.

[@davidd6171]

I really enjoy your videos, Michael! The logic and clear presentation of information is fantastic! Keep up the great work!

[@edkiely2712]

For those who are maybe into diving into Messner a little further, I would also suggest watching Werner Herzog's film on Messner titled 'A Dark Glow Of The Mountains'

[@juniorballs6025]

Will certainly try to, thanks for the recommendation 👍

[@peterjohnson617]

why don`t you just read his books & see what you take away ????

[@matthewcollins5344]

@@peterjohnson617 how about try both👍

[@j.griffin]

@@matthewcollins5344 If he felt that why, why is he browsing these videos anyway- just to troll the comments?

[@Dana-qt1db]

Really nice mocie

[@wakeizland]

An amazing accomplishment for Messner, but I still think Mallory and Irvine would be the greatest Everest climb. Messner knew he could do it, having already done it in 1978 with Habeler. Mallory and Irvine were trying to do something which had never been done before. Messner also looks to have boots and cold weather climbing gear far superior to what was available in 1924.

[@honorguardsfencingclub7322]

If the camera is found, and photos show them on the summit, they will be forever revered.

[@BRILLSTEELMOTORSPORT]

Of course materials were much improved but you have to admit that Messner wanted cut of the trolls; with no help, all by himself, enormous risks ! It was a great accomplishment.

[@donaldcook3112]

@@honorguardsfencingclub7322 . . . And until that comes to pass - almost 100 years later ... Mallory and Irvine did NOT reach the summit . Simple as .

[@matthewcollins5344]

@@donaldcook3112 Nothing to prove they didn’t either, simple as👍

[@bobomac8330]

Three rules of mountaineering, Come back alive Come back friends Get to the top In that order.

[@falcodarkzz]

There is something about Messner doing the first solo ascent, first solo ascent without Oxygen, and if we remove the 1978 climb (as the trolls want) then the first ascent without Oxygen fullstop. Three insane records in one climb, we may as well take the trolls words at face value because it makes Messner sound even more badass. Just incredible.

[@roryryan2933]

What a lovely channel ; informed, concise, damn interesting

[@jackharle1251]

Climbing for spite, the most pure of all motivations (I'm not being sarastic).

[@Libbyyyyyyyyyy]

thanks for clearing this up. Free Spirit is one of my favorite books which got me into climbing when I was younger.

[@pauloalvesdesouza7911]

Fantastic video. As usual you put the light upon the mistakes and lies bringing forth the hard facts. Thanks for your work.

[@whoppingliar5100]

Michael, first thanks for your videos they are both well researched and informative. To address the question of Messner's relationship with the Sherpa's I would like to put forward an idea (although I will clarify it is based just on my own speculation and experience with "strong personality's"). For most Western climbers Everest would not be possible without the Sherpa's. Mallory himself relied on them to carry the oxygen to the higher camps. They have been an integral part of every expedition, there strength and ability at altitude is some thing no one would question. Now from their point of view it must be a source of pride to be the lynch pin in so many attempts on the summit. Ask ourselves this question, there is a man who doesn't need your help or your expertise and surpasses you in ability (you have lost that lynch pin role ). Coupled with the fact that this man knows it. How would you treat him?

[@barryolaith]

It was the same with Ueli Steck and the Sherpas, was it not? They didn't appear to like him either and were violent towards him - on film.

[@jaymiller6009]

Well said. It certainly makes a lot of sense that the Sherpas enjoy the reputation and notoriety that westerners rely on them and that the success of western climbers is not possible without them. To me, it would essentially be common sense that many people and/or groups of people collectively would not appreciate being shown up by individuals whom they deem inferior to themselves.

[@tjasasmith1727]

I'm going to go on a rant, rofl. Brace yourselves blasphemy ahead. Internet turned sherpas into some mythical creatures that everyone needs to worship. For decades they were just porters. Transporting supplies up the mountain. If there were no local people there White climbers would find ways around logistical difficulties. Them being the ones guiding, setting up the ropes, short roping ppl up the mountain is a recent phenomenon, of maybe the last 20 some years. Before climbers set the ropes, were relying on other climbers, and sherpas only brought supplies up to the 4th camp after climber set up the ropes where there were needed. Climber ascended without sherpas after 4th camp. One of the climbers from I think 1979 expedition casually mentioned these details when describing his ascend to the top of the Everest. He also mentioned they were the one educating sherpas so that they could establish climbing association later or join one. Something like that. The climber mentioned this thing on the podcast randomly, and shortly, I just picked on this random details, because everyone keeps kissing sherpas assas like they are some mythical creatures in the comment sections. For literally decades they were just porters, White men were scaling the mountains trying to find the best routes, risking their lives, going in blind, or with very little information. Than they educate sherpas, take them with them, show them every damn rock they need to be careful of, and now it's general belief we couldn't be climbing those mountains without them. White men sailed around the world, flew around the world, I think we could climb those mountains without them if we had to. Everyone tries to diminish White men's achievements with souch vigor. If White men haven't set their eyes on those peaks, sherpas even with their advantage of better adaptation to higher altitude would still be just looking at those peaks from the valley with no interest in climbing them. Let's mention thet German guy's ascend to K2 in I think 1939. It was literally sherpa begging him close to the top to stop and go back, and even loosing equipment. After which they had no choice but to actually return without reaching the top. Very symbolic. Now they finally took advantage of their better adaptability to higher altitude and piggybagging ppl up the mountains most of whom shouldn't be there in the first place, for money, after all the initial danger White men put themselves in and gather all the necessary information. Pretty much relayed it to them. And now all the comment section dwellers religiously demand tenth for sherpas in every climbing video under the sun. Or you are blasphemous. Let the down voting begin :D

[@rondog540]

Habeler also notes in his 78 book that Messner and two Sherpas got stuck on the South Col during a bad storm and Messner said some unspecified nasty things to them in order to prevent them from letting go of the poles and going to sleep, which probably didn't help

[@kvpc11]

Superb video and narration...and the nice glass of Chianti/Silence of the Lambs reference is certainly not lost!

[@jaymiller6009]

In that opening photograph in the video showing Messner’s route up Everest, does anyone know the approximate distances of that red line? The line is essentially a horizontal for 3/4 of the route and the vertical is approximately the last 1/4. I have no idea if that is 500 metres across the lower part or 2000 metres; but it would be interesting if anyone knows those distances relatively accurately. Thanks in advance.

[@johnv4217]

Measuring it on Google Earth, I came up with about 1500 meters for the total line, about 900 meters for the horizontal section.

[@michaeltracy2356]

Comments will be open for community discussion. Unless your original comment starts with "Michael:", I will generally not respond and will let other community members reply. There are plenty of people up to speed on these issue who are familiar with the literature and the topography of the mountain. So, I'll let you discuss the issues and work them out on your own. If you feel there is something that truly requires my attention, then please feel free post it. One point to discuss that it not directly addressed by the video is why Messner and the Sherpas were at odds with each other. Was it just that Messner was difficult? Or was there something about what Messner was saying that they didn't like?

[@jacobevans5148]

Michael, I really enjoyed this video of you breaking down a controversial climb. Any chance you might make other videos on controversial climbs...say one in 1960?

[@michaeltracy2356]

Yes, 1960 is coming up. I need to lay a little groundwork for it, so we will visit another Chinese climb before I get into that.

[@theproductwhisper9378]

I think the issue from the sherpa’s side is that, from a distance, and in a certain light, Messner looks like a yeti

[@aldodellacqua5626]

Michael, what about starting with 'President of the Galactic Federation'? Are you answering as well? (sorry, off topic but that article is a must read ahah!)

[@michaeltracy2356]

@@aldodellacqua5626 Of course, there is some humor in the newspaper, and it is making fun of the very real phenomenon that various scientific figures do indeed claim space aliens are controlling life on Earth. Francis Younghusband was indeed Chairman of the Mount Everest Committee, and he did claim that UFOs were controlling life on Earth. And, more recently, Haim Eshed, former chairman for Israel's version of NASA, said substantially similar things in a book written by Hagar Yanai. The chapter that deals with the issue appears to be entirely "post-truth."

[@honorguardsfencingclub7322]

I'm interested to know the actual "walking" distance of the route; in yards or meters or miles, even just a close approximation, how far he actually traveled across the ground. I guess I still don't yet have a complete 3-dimensional "feel" for the mountain and its' actual size.

[@michaeltracy2356]

Open up Google Earth Pro, create a route, and it will answer your question.

[@wymanfischer7295]

Further support for modern climbers roping together: Ed Viesturs in an interview from 2010, he comments that he and Scott Fischer were roped together in an avalanche on K2 in which he is able to stop both of them using his ice axe. Sorry I don’t have a link to the interview. “Ed Viesturs: aired December, 2010. Editor Mike Blakey”

[@edkiely2712]

To know what Messner is made of, one just has to know how he responded to the news from Elizabeth Hawley that Naiomi Uemura had already secured a permit to solo Everest in the winter of 1980 before him. From the moment Messner received the news, he had ambiguous feelings with regard to Uemura; nothing personal mind you, but he could by no means ALLOW Uemura to be the first, so he set his mind working on how to out manuver Uemura to do what Messner says is the pinnacle for a climber. In the 'Crystal Horizon' he states, "There is more to it than mere mountaineering: after the failure of the expedition to Ama Dablam I'm eager to push myself to the limit. The highest mountain in the world, in winter, alone- for a climber that is the absolute high point."

[@Bear333-o9n]

Obsessed with Messner .yep .I admire him greatly.legend is a word too often used.

[@jcaff6963]

Really enjoyed this. I've always thought this was the greatest high altitude climb.

[@robertmacdonald733]

Hands down no doubt about it. The greatest climb ever. A bold daring completely solo up the highest mt..A simple concept. Amazing

[@joebikeguy6669]

Quite a few years ago I became fascinated with Messner and read a fair bit and watched some documentaries, (they may still be on YT?). Nonetheless, I learned some things here I did not know. Very nice writing, research, editing and presentation. Thanks!

[@Ronin4614]

Chianti is always a great choice, but I get a headache from it. I went with a nice German, Mosel, Eis Wine, I hope you can forgive me. The summit photo of Messner is simple, but remarkable. Thank you, Micheal, for this video.

[@Altropos]

How do you rank Messner vs Fritz Wiessner? Wiessner almost going up K2 with just Pasang Dawa Lama while leading every pitch has to be up there. I mean, that's just insane. Imagine if the two would have climbed together.

[@jdw6925]

Michael, I'm getting really confused now. I've just looked at your analysis dated May 21st 2017 ("The Crux: Mallory's Planned Route to Bypass the Second Step", mtracy99) and in that you've got Messner going up the subsidiary couloir and then round to the left of a "dark vertical wall" to finish up the North-North-East ridge (which I think some people refer to as the North Spur). This is very different to what you're now saying in this video.

[@michaeltracy2356]

The video is the accurate route. Like many of you, I have been fooled by charlatans in the past -- which is why I devote such a large section to the various false maps of Messner's route. The correct route can be determined by using his climb times and assigning a reasonable rate -- that is not have him doing 1000 feet per hour because you need him at a certain spot and then having him do 100 feet per hour because you need a section to take more time. To anyone starting out in this area, there is so much misinformation, it is difficult to navigate in the demon haunted world.

[@jdw6925]

@@michaeltracy2356 I agree that there are multiple conflicting maps, statements and articles out there - it's a mine field! You're probably right here about the line out of the couloir and I don't have Messner's book. The only thing that doesn't add up is the quote you give from the book in your 2017 article, namely, " Until a dark vertical rock wall bars the way above me. Something draws me to the left, I pass the obstacle, and continue still keeping to the right." This description matches the route in your 2017 article better than the one here in this video - with the rock wall in this video being rather huge and seemingly stretching the whole way across the face to the Hornbein Couloir. This kind of puts some doubt on to his "Something draws me to the left" deliberations. I think someone will probably have to ask Messner himself to be sure.

[@michaeltracy2356]

Messner said where he exited in the Himalayan database. It matches with what is in this video and it is consistent with his later climb times in Crystal Horizon. Of course, as I state in the video, you should always verify things for yourself. His accounts are difficult to understand and he leaves a lot vague. It is not an easy problem to solve, and many people have got in wrong -- myself included. However, I have stated that my earlier analysis is incorrect and I stated why it is incorrect. Using the higher black rock as the wall gives unrealistic climb times and does not match with the limited time he spent in the couloir. As a note, Messner spent so little time in the couloir that the Himalayan database does not even classify his route as a "couloir" route. That, by itself, is of little value, but for the last 40 years, his route has not been classified as a couloir route. He spent very little time in the couloir as his statements made to Hawley (who complied them into the database) reflect. Messner clearly describes a long traverse across the rib, and this does not match with an exit from the "small gully." Messner climbed about 200m total in the Norton Couloir. It is a very small portion of his total climb. But people need Messner to have climbed the "couloir" even through the Himalayan database doesn't even include it in the brief route description, 'N Col-N Ridge-N Face' . As he spent far far more time on the N Col, the N Ridge, and the N face then he ever did in the couloir, this is an accurate route description. Unfortunately, it doesn't work for people advocating Mallory taking the couloir.

[@rolandofurioso5498]

@@michaeltracy2356 I´m from Austria and i´ve read the book in it´s original 1st edition and could definitly not extract the route because like all of Messner´s writing it´s full of pathos and pseudo-philosophy with no actual interesting details of the climb. Especially in the upper part after the grey step over the yellow band, it´s, at least for me, impossible to imagine which route he took. Somehow left to the dihydral? More right side and then straight up? No one knows exactly beside Messner... As i interprete his coded words he got into the great colouir not far under the step which seperates it, then climbed it and the took the small couloir up to the right, but in the full lenght (and not like the Australians beneth the step) and bypassed the grey step. I´d like to visit his mountain museum and his castle this summer, perhaps i´ll see him and can ask him some questions with a detailed picture of the upper north face in my hand...

[@mathieuvalade9632]

@Michael I guess you already watch the T.Pollard and Jake Norton coulir video. They use exactly this Great Climbs to refute your analysis.... Messner allegedly said to Norton that the Zig Zag is not possible. With the picture of 10:50 of your video seems possible what are your thoughts?

[@michaeltracy2356]

I'll have a video out on that shortly.

[@ashishmishra9223]

Michael I have been thinking latlely of reading a book about Messner. And as you mention 'The Crystal Horizon' I think it is worth giving a try. But the problem is that this book was published in 1982. There is another book of messner written in 2004 by name Reinhold Messner: My Life at the Limit. Which one do you suggest?

[@BBQDad463]

Both.

[@ollifriedrich8422]

My life at the limit. Went through it multiple times, great lecture. I'm German though, so I can't tell if the translation captures the atmosphere properly(German has a certain vibe to it) It's basically a very long interview and you really feel like you're getting to know him, learn about his thoughts, his point of view. If you're interested in what specific gear he used throughout his career, what training he went through(if any) etc. This is not the right book for you, otherwise: amazing, go get it. Think I'll read it again now haha

[@johnvermillion3041]

@@ollifriedrich8422 I would say a little is lost in translation. Im a native english speaker and I am learning German. With the german I do know, I found it a little better than the english version.

[@harti938]

Especially strange when you think about the BBC documentary where they are seen discovering two tubes of sunblocker, which still smelled recognizable, so they were identified easily. A document which can be easily rewatched on youtube.

[@scottsmith4145]

Yeh and zinc oxide is still to this day one of the best sunblocks in existence used in many formulations for full spectrum protection.

[@HighCarbDiabeticV]

As always, Michael, very great content, please keep it coming

[@schmidttheman]

Thank you for your great work . I have long wondered how close Messner came to Mallory‘s body. I can’t decide which man I admire more.

[@donaldknowles9640]

Toddington Styles Messner is the more accomplished of the two Climbers... Given that Mallory has never officially been credited with a 8000 m summit... However Mallory is the most iconic mountaineer known to humanity

[@philc.5100]

@@donaldknowles9640 because he was a pioneer who attempted it over 50 years earlier

[@nellyx1x493]

He must have passed very close by below Mallory. From Messners description in the 'Cyrstal Horizon' he was thinking about the pair a lot as he picked his way across the buttresses on the traverse. There's something so poignant about this. Two legends with few equals.

[@m60b40]

Michael, Very cool video! I have a question regarding the route that Messner traversed the north face over to the Norton couloir - It seems that Messner traversed the north face much lower down than what is shown by your red line track at 5:52 in the video, assuming the photo Messner took at his traverse point is accurate (8:26 in your video). Notice he appears to be looking over that larger snowfield at what seems to be around the 7750 meter elevation. Also, notice the features of the rock wall on the west side of the Norton Couloir that are in his line of sight; it appears he would have entered the couloir at ~7930 meters. Thoughts?

[@patrickrodgers4298]

Love the Reference to the 1984 Australian North Face Climb, small team doing it without oxygen. Both the book and the tv documentary are very good.

[@clintfeekes7177]

"Two of the greatest alpinist ascents of Mt Everest is the Lincoln Hall/Australian assent and Rheinhold Messner." Any great ascent of Mt. Everest has to include the 1963 ascent on the West Ridge and North face by Willy Unsoeld and Tom Horbeim.

[@Sean-nr3ns]

Sherpas are all sweet and professional until a person not from the region climbs better than them.

[@djtrendsetta5766]

Yeah, like Steck and Simone.

[@jonschlottig9584]

Great video thanks!!

[@אורןיער-ס6ת]

This is a great video, 👍 thank you so much 🙏 ❤

[@mattiik]

0:45 Messner was stated to have an average V02 max no?

[@scottsmith4145]

And interestingly Messner has said in his opinion this wasnt his greatest climb,,, his solo ascent of Nanga Parbat in 1978 was because it was his first solo high alt climb where he had to learn to conquer the fear.

[@donaldknowles9640]

Michael... Thank You for the upload

[@eric-wb7gj]

TY 🙏🙏

[@localbod]

Thank you for all your work in creating these videos. It is fascinating stuff. I have signed up to the 'Spirit Of Man' site and I do hope you eventually write your book. On the subject of books, please could you recommend two or three titles to read about Mallory & Irvine's summit attempt, that are worth the effort in your opinion? Thanks in advance.

[@ImSNB]

What do people involved in the sport thing of Nims Purja ascents in his Netflix movie?

[@ty56ty1]

That patch of snow just below your red line centre at 1:18 is interesting

[@michaelcameron2292]

Cmon Messner climbed alone No Sherpa help no oxygen unclimbed route at Monsoon season He was truly alone on that mountain with no one to turn to for help should anything go wrong THIS IS THE GREATEST Everest climb bar none Its off the scale What a Mountaineer Messner is

[@jupite1888]

Thom Pollard just messaged me saying he thought all the images and drone footage had been released and will look in to it

[@edkiely2712]

@jupiter2 Pollard said, "We took tons and tons of footage of the mountain!" Synnott also refers in his book to "hundreds of photos" in the search zone! It hasn't all been released! Pollard might be deliberately being evasive and him saying he will "look into it" is meant to keep everyone in a perpetual state of anticipation.

[@eyeofthetiger5948]

that sounds weird, he admitted under 1 of his videos that he's holding back photos/footage that he isn't authorized to release

[@TheSaxon.]

Tremendous achievement. I actually took his route when i climbed up backwards for charity.

[@edkiely2712]

Was this this time you did it flip-flops and a speedo?

[@mobilfone2234]

one leged and hands tied to your back.....

[@TheSaxon.]

@@edkiely2712 Yes and a straw hat that didn't blow off once.

[@edkiely2712]

@@TheSaxon. And here I was thinking Messner was a badass!

[@TheSaxon.]

@@edkiely2712 There's always someone better. He's not bad though.

[@kevinrowandegroote5445]

Great video, Michael! Messner is a true giant of mountaineering and climbing community - wish I had his physical attributes, mental fortitude and acumen for climbing (even just for a day). What did the Sherpa community make of his 1980 summit? Did they retract their objections to the 1978 summit?

[@rolandofurioso5498]

they started sleeping ON the summit, to proof their superiority, lol

[@rolandofurioso5498]

Messner said he had to traverse and not take the planned n_E ridge because of deep snow, but i HIGHLY doubt that was the reason. His ego wouldnt have survived if he´d to use the chinese ladder at the second step, which he criticized A LOT later, for it´s the reason Everest has become a "Via Ferrata-Klettersteig" for tourists.

[@c.vonsohn9566]

Speaking of silencing trolls: "Even before Messner's trip to Nanga Parbat in the fall of 1971, the public prosecutor at the Munich Regional Court had rejected Messner's criminal complaint against Herrligkoffer and Bitterling for libel. On September 14. On March 14, 1972, the preliminary proceedings against Herrligkoffer and Anderl for the negligent killing of Günther Messner were finally dropped. [...] Herrligkoffer subsequently won further lawsuits against Messner, the magazine Alpinismus, the magazine Spiegel and the author of an article in the Süddeutsche Zeitung. Numerous claims, among others, about the mountaineering experience, the expedition equipment, the style of Herrligkoffer's expedition leadership and his medical treatment of Messner's frostbite had to be revoked. Messner was sentenced for breach of the expedition contract and his publisher was sentenced to refrain from further publication of Messner's book The Red Rocket on Nanga Parbat." Jochen Hemmleb, "Nanga Parbat - das Drama 1970 und die Kontroverse: wie die Messner-Tragödie zum größten Streitfall der Alpingeschichte wurde", Tyrolia Verlag, 2010, pp. 144; 146

[@griffith500tvr]

I am a huge Messner fan, the only really critic I have is that he also suggested that Mallory & Irvine took took the 2nd Step route and probably failed. Messner would probably be the best person to talk about M&I taking the traverse to the Norton couloir and their chances there.

[@ajseven53]

He is just being realistic seing the vertícal wall himself it would be impossible for anyone without equipment to climb. If M&I made it to the summit they may have taken another route.

[@KassanderMinoer]

Messner wrote false words about the 2nd step and Mallory in his book about his solo ascent in 1980. Messner did a north wall traverse at around 8.200m and camped on a buttress before the Norton couloir. He argued that from down he had seen exactly all the details of the 2nd step - and have had SEEN that it must have been too hard... Now look to a map or a good photograph, and you will see, the vertical distance of Messner to the 2nd step (~8.610 mtr) was >400mtr, the slope distance will have been >550mtr - much too far to judge the hardness of the 2nd step visually from his position in the wall. Other climbers evaluate the hardness as 5th grade, upper range - and well within Mallory's abilities. So my... conclusion is that Messner did not say the truth, and he knew - because he studied mathematics and had worked as a land surveyor ... I don't tell that Mallory and/or Irvine were on top..., no. But I know that Messner's arguments against the 1924 mens'chances, being not able to go on top are false.

[@jdw6925]

Great video, Michael. I always thought that Messner went up the subsidiary couloir, but your description here makes much more sense. Did the Australians in 1984 take the same route out of the Norton Couloir as Messner and then descend via the subsidiary couloir instead?

[@Rando_Shyte]

Might wanna correct the spelling of ascent in the description. Otherwise, great analysis!

[@michaeltracy2356]

Thanks. Fixed it.

[@Rando_Shyte]

@@michaeltracy2356 No worries. Great channel keep it up :)

[@manodfergus]

Unsworth didn't claim that Messner followed the Norton Route. Unsworth merely says that Messner, like Norton before him, followed a line beneath the Northeast Ridge; the key to fully understanding Unsworth's text is the use of the words 'a line'. Michael, you misread Unsworth (7:01) by saying, "...the line beneath the Northeast Ridge...." which is inaccurate at best, misleading at worst.

[@chazbarns1410]

Messner is a great within the climbing world however, i’d be willing to bet he did threaten someone with a dagger. “Some claim messner had a dagger but never took it out of his bag” Tells me he didnt just “keep it in his bag”. If he did, no one would know he even had a dagger.

[@johnvermillion3041]

Read "The Crystal Horizon" it is Messner's book about this climb

[@alanbrooke144]

Interesting, but personally I wouldn’t rate a climb when both partners died as being “a greatest climb”.

[@mafteim5556]

Messner is a legend.

[@cameltrophy3]

Could Irvine's remains be lower on the slope from where Mallory was found? I have no climbing experience and I have never been anywhere near Himalayan mountains. I am nerdy, book reading wannabe. The rationalization of my question: humans are bipedal animals which makes us top heavy. When climbers fall, typically they are found with their heads pointing down the slope because of the physics of weight distribution and gravity. Mallory was found with his head pointing up the mountain and his torso showed wounds from the rope which he and Irvine were tied together with. Could Irvine have fallen past Mallory, pulling Mallory's body around to point up the slope? I also keep coming back to the question of erosion. In this video Messner's photos show a massive amount of snow with hardly any black rock exposed, with other photos showing much less snow. This keeps bring to my mind the natural process of erosion. Mallory's head and hands pointed up the slope and had been covered by decades of natural erosion. I might hypothesize Mallory and Irvine fell together, and as they fell became tangled in the rope that connected them. Mallory came to rest on the slope where he was found, but Irvine fell past coming to the end of the rope which jerked Mallory and snapped the rope. This repositions Mallory's remains to the position he was found in 1999. Irvine then ends up lower on the slope. The "dead English" body mentioned by the Chinese was Mallory. Thank you, as always for your hard work and dedication to this fascinating discussion.

[@garysmith5641]

good point the rope was frozen tight i mean the frozen skin was imprinted as if the rope was tight

[@kevintomaselli6842]

I’d be very interested to hear Michael Tracy’s take on this interesting possibility. Michael?

[@Bear333-o9n]

I seem to remember recently he mentioned the possibility of Andrew I ,being lower down , always fascinated me ,the ice axe ,deliberate ? . So at this point AI would if witness to this, try and descend or shelter?.

[@TheWiffle24]

@Micheal what are your thoughts on @Ronin comment ? thank you for all your hard work and please keep up the good work.

[@michaeltracy2356]

Certainly, there is the possibility that Irvine fell all the way down the mountain. However, it is very difficult to get as far down as Mallory. Just past him, there is a steeper section that Irvine would likely not come to rest on. And below that, the next snow slope is steeper than the Mallory Basin. So, likely if he fell much further, he would have gone all the way down. There are a number of reasons to believe he did not. (1) Xu Jing had a sighting at about 8400m. (2) There is the 2013 photo showing about 8400m that shows something -- could be a rock. Could be a body. (3) That area was searched in 2019. Initially Jake Norton said they did not search it, but later that they did. They will not release any photos of it -- although they released photos/videos of all the other search locations (there was a whole TV show about Jake's 2019 search). (4) Nat Geo will not release the drone photos. (5) Thom Pollard has said there is some information about Irvine that resolves the issue but that he is not allowed to say. It is no longer a question of whether Pollard is not telling us everything. It is a question of what he is not telling us. This is not an issue with Pollard. Someone else is calling the shots, and I am guessing it is not the great truth seeker in the sky.

[@kippamip]

If I had the money to climb over the mountain and look for sandy I would. Summiting is something that would not bother me in the slightest, proving history is far more important. They summited alright, and tensing and Hillary know it. Has anyone actually taken a shovel to the summit and had a little dig around? Probably not. My opinion only differs from Michael in one way, in that I think Irvine is lower down than Mallory. I say that because I believe Mallory would of lead the way being the more experienced of the 2, and I believe that Mallory effectively sling shot sandy further as he fell and they were roped up. Looking at all the vids on you tube of people falling on fixed ropes just 1 person can pull at least 3 people down on a rope, add that to darkness and all the other conditions I just think it seems more logical he went for a ride.

[@YoungPadawan85]

The whole butterfly over the mouth reference to silence of the lambs film in context of Messner successfully shutting up the trolls induced in me a visceral gutteral pirate type of laugh I love it, it is just absolutely righteous, also loving some the other comments here, two yeti's and unicorn farts LOL xDD

[@billcook4768]

I know the exact technical details matter to many people. But to us civilians, whether he went up then over or over then up isn’t the point. He was alone. Five miles in the air. On near vertical slopes. Little oxygen to breathe. No fixed ropes. Finding the route as he climbed. Impossible. And yet he did it.

[@sheikantoniovonpeanutbutte9667]

I regard Messner as the greatest athlete that’s ever lived

[@pratiktandel5706]

Also make a video on Kang shun face ascent. Very nice work though

[@VashStarwind]

Do you think Irvine will ever be found?

[@enricofermi5608]

YES Irvine will be discovered !!

[@Chris-CardVault]

Mr.Tracy, did Messner ?, ever say he seen anybody , ( dead climber ) back when,he climbed, this route? On Everest! I looked through past video clips, interviews, and I couldn't find anything, with Messner at all!

[@michaeltracy2356]

Messner never said he saw any dead bodies on this 1980 route.

[@donaldcook3112]

. . . Safe to deduct from the fact that he didn't mention any sightings ... that he did not see ANY , C h r i s t o p h e r ...

[@pauloalvesdesouza7911]

Anyone who watches this video and doesn't stop to read the "article" on Mallory Clinton is losing a good laugh. All hail the President of The Galactic Federation!

[@WilliamNeish]

Love it !

[@larswetterstrom7209]

There is a concept about climbing alpine style. Messner style I guess. More daring and faster definitely.

[@drfill9210]

My greatest climb will be not going anywhere near that mountain!! I'm happy these people did what they did but nowadays it's just a rich person's bucket list. Besides I have no intention of adding my body to the large number of bodies piled all over that mountain

[@Raven1816]

Sadly, he defends Into Thin Air....

[@keepgrindingup7661]

It wouldn't surprise me that he pissed in people's pots or pulled a knife on a Sherpa.. anybody taking a deep dive into these Mountaineers know that a good portion of them feel entitled and are total douches. Look I'll give them props for doing superhuman Feats of Strength but insofar as humanitarianism? mountain climbers have never been known for much in that department😢

[@mauriziosorelli9566]

Conservo tutt'ora la felpa azzurra che la Fila fece, nel 1980, per festeggiare l'impresa di Messner. Sul davanti sta ricamata, a grandi caratteri bianchi, la scritta: "Messner and Fila back from summit of 8000's"

[@Logai74]

When it comes to Irvine we are almost there in the end of 2024. I am hoping that the 2025 season will solve everything!

[@diesel3333]

Nice quenteee! 🔥🔥🔥

[@toniwertman4818]

I guess to c. Anker zinc oxide is not sunblock/??!!

[@BS2Dos]

👍👍

[@johnhansen8134]

Well done…

[@BlackOps-Ent]

Man, I thought women bickered. Holy shit, there are a LOT of HUGE EGOs in rock climbing. Everybody seems to write a book, factual or not, professing how not to blame they are for this or that. I tackled a tall wall once. I was good.

[@rameyzamora1018]

Silence of the Slams...

[@tachikaze222]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/noHEYmOVqtqGoKc for the Australian effort. As I commented on the video, no ladders for these blokes.

[@philc.5100]

I re-watched this only last week, a truly amazing achievement and with no oxygen too!

[@serenitynow66]

Any person denying Messner's alpine ability and achievements are clueless to the nth and believe in Unicorn farts...lol

[@samstewart4807]

Hi, How does person climb that without oxygen?? How many others have done it?

[@dchmurciak]

How many so far.. less than 200 on Everest

[@nellyx1x493]

Ask Nirmal Purja, aka. Nims. He's probably up there right this minute, going strong with no 'O'. The lad eats world records for breakfast.

[@dchmurciak]

@@nellyx1x493 Go Nims Go... I dream of sherpas doing route no-one ever scaled before they are strong and good climbers. What about 'Fantasy ridge' ??? That would be epic... Those speed records on fixed ropes on route done thousand times before are little-bit boring.

[@TheSaxon.]

@@nellyx1x493 He uses Oxygen and even though his climbs were incredible physical feats, they were put on a plate for him, as much as that's possible. He deserves acknowledgement but he's not in the same class as pure mountaineers like Messner.

[@broderickmcdonald4416]

The work of a real gangster

[@cappy2282]

Messner awesome

[@jchendrix]

Mallory and Irvine definitely made it to the Summit of Everest and they must have been the first two people on earth to do it! It's only logical by Mallory's resting position and the evidence to conclude that he was on his decent when he died. People are bitter and don't want to recognise the fact that Mallory and Irvine did it many years before everyone else and with far inferior equipment. The facts speak louder then any words though.

[@michaeltracy2356]

He did in his book. In a later interview he said it was possible. So, welcome to the channel. Would help if you clarify why you disagree with Messner. No problem disagreeing with him, but when the man changes his mind about something, you should respect that.

[@jchendrix]

@@michaeltracy2356 I never mentioned Messner or stated that I disagreed with him?

[@michaeltracy2356]

@@jchendrix The poster above, @caravaggio31 did. My response was to his recent post. Sometimes these responses don't post in order, so you might not have seen it. Also, it doesn't make it easy for me to reply directly to a person -- as I am doing here. To do so, I have respond directly from KZbin rather than the admin section where I normally handle the comments from.

[@jchendrix]

@@michaeltracy2356 Ah Apologies, I thought that you were referencing what I had commented, I know what you mean it is so difficult to see the comments chain on youtube sometimes. I would like to say though that your analysis of some of the historic climbing mysteries is well researched and detailed thank you for making these videos as a part time amateur climber, adventurer myself it is so intriguing to delve into the past and explore the possible options of what happened. Thank you for making wonderful content. :)

[@michaeltracy2356]

@caravaggio31. That is great. So we agree on the 1960 clim not reaching the summit -- as that is what Messner said as well in his writings. Can you link to a post where you point this out? Or you just anti-Mallory? Pro-Chinese?

[@griffith500tvr]

I have the impression the Konrad Ankers comments are very often i correct, not at all a reliable source. Anker also had plenty of time to correct himself but he doesn't so maybe he is gaged by National Geographic or just incompetent.

[@Zeph-r7f]

Michael: Hello, thanks for these videos, I enjoy them very much. I was surprised to hear that Messner believed in yetis, and I was able to find this video where he thinks it's probably a bear of some kind: kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3yUe6h4bNeDpbs . Thoughts?

[@michaeltracy2356]

Messner's wants to have it both ways --- he wants to search for a yeti while saying the mythological yeti does not exist. But that is just a tautology. He defines the yeti to be a bear or something real that people see and the mythological yeti as something that is purely mythological and then proceeds to "prove" that the purely mythological creature does not exist. Hence, the cover of his book.... "In a terrifying moment during a solo climb in eastern Tibet, renowned mountaineer Reinhold Messner confronted a large unidentifiable creature that moved upright with astonishing agility. Convinced that he had found living proof of a legend, Messner began a quest to the remote monasteries and isolated villages of Nepal, Bhutan, India, and Tibet, seeking an answer to a mystery that has haunted the imagination for generations." And later, he says: "It was dusk; he was climbing a steep, densely vegetated slope. Suddenly something large and dark stepped out ahead of him. He watched it racing along in front, flitting in and out of the trees, upright like a man, but moving faster than any man could. Neither branches nor ditches slowed it down. At one point it stood motionless only 10 yards away, then disappeared. " www.theguardian.com/books/2000/aug/10/travelbooks.samwollaston And he ultimately concludes... "After 12 years of research and more than 20 trips to the Himalayas, scouring monasteries for relics and eventually seeing more "yetis" for himself in Lhasa and the Karakorum, Messner's conclusion is a little disappointing. The yeti does not exist. It is "bullshit", he would say, and does. There is no human-like abominable snowman living in the mountains. The yeti is in fact a Himalayan brown bear. "In the end I thought to myself: how could I need 12 years to come to the answer? It's so obvious." Ok, then why write a book about what can be said in just a paragraph. The point of me bringing it up, is that when Messner needed a story of a man-like creature living in the Himalayans, he told such a story. When he needed the story of him debunking the myth he himself help create, well, just buy his book and he will tell you. But ultimately, he does not even "debunk" they myth -- he essentially confirms it. He says there are bears that can walk upright with extreme speed that live in the Himalayan. Ok, well that sort of sounds like a yeti. Ultimately, Messner says his story was not selling very well as people did not want to hear about the bear.

[@vindictivetiger]

Quite frankly, Messner’s photos don’t prove anything other than either someone was taking pictures of him climbing or he was taking pictures of someone while climbing. In 1978, cameras were not automated to take pictures on a timer; and he doesn’t appear to be carrying a tripod, if that’s him in the black, so why would he carry the extra gear of a tripod but not an O2 tank? That makes no sense. Since he was the only one who supposedly went up there, he can pretty much say whatever he wants, can’t he? Doesn’t mean it happened. I believe the Sherpas.

[@nellyx1x493]

Pre-auto fully mechanical film cameras have had self timer capability for quite a while. The first add-on mechanical type was patented in 1902, small devices that screwed into the shutter release were popular, with in-built types arriving mid century. A fully mechanical camera used to be considered a good thing to have at altitude as they are not so affected by temperature. I have a classic Nikon in my drawer from the late 70's with a very usable self timer, still works fine now, it can work even without a battery like some pre-millenium voodoo. A camera mount to place on top of an ice axe used to be thing, just jam axe in the snow and voila. The desire to be free of the '0' is as much for a purist aesthetic as it is for the practical weight savings.

[@awralls]

@@nellyx1x493 Pete Conrad took a timer for his Hasselblad on Apollo 12 in Nov 69.

[@nevets4ever4]

Plenty of examples of built-in self timers in cameras from the 1960-70s: I used a Konica Auto S Rangefinder 35mm camera in the 1970s - it had a self timer. Also have a Veriwide 6x9cm camera (manufactured in the 1960s) has a built-in timer. Love the Veriwide since it uses the larger 120 film and doesn't need a battery so works well at really low temperatures.

[@TheSaxon.]

I think you may want to do a little research before making such comments.

[@donaldcook3112]

. . . How difficult was it for you 'Vindictive Tiger' ( 'name shield' explains a certain amount - me thinks) to become so very uninformed about the facts of the history of self timers on cameras - ?.. Decades behind the simple facts as clearly stated . Fekkin eijit .

[@rrb2nd]

Legend!

[@frankmithen8771]

Irvine and Mallory died.... so did not climb Everest. Who cares if they got to the top. Messner's climb was the greatest for sure.

[@michaeltracy2356]

Messner disagrees... "Whether or not it took him to Everest’s summit, it remains the most significant ascent ever made on Mount Everest." Messner, Reinhold. The Second Death of George Mallory: The Enigma and Spirit of Mount Everest . .

[@clydesoles2451]

It's "hah-bler" not "hay-bler." I've met Peter a couple times. And know Reinhold well...I drank too many grappas with him at Castle Duval talking about mountaineering history.

[@jimc.goodfellas]

7:16 Thank God that's not real haha

[@tarawaukeri8928]

I don't like the way you present. If it's not bias, it sure gives me that feeling.

[@michaeltracy2356]

Wow, you detected that my channel has a bias in favor of things relating to Mount Everest. You're a genius. It would be better to point out some factual issue rather than an unsupported opinion.

[@JB-rt4mx]

Messner doesn't Lie...he is German and many times people do not like thier cold logic and attitudes..

[@michaeltracy2356]

No, he is not German.

[@billcook4768]

Blue-Haired Lawyer: What about that tattoo on your chest? Doesn't it say die Bart die? Sideshow Bob: No, that's German [unveils tattoo] Sideshow Bob: for 'The Bart The'. Woman on Parole Board: No one who speaks German could be an evil man.

[@schwobamichl]

Too much blabla indeed

[@zitrone2779]

messners boy is now death becous of messners feelles behavior ter is no fear ? tats not good ! you schould haf always big respeckt from this mountains.

[@tarawaukeri8928]

No one is capable of running a 4 minute mile either, or lifting 3 times their own body weight...until they do...nah far cough. Where's the do not recommend channel

[@michaeltracy2356]

Easiest way to not recommend the channel is to stop posting your incessant comments. I find it amusing that the people that "can't stand" my content spend so much time interacting with it. But you're a real Catcher in the Rye. Good luck with that.

[@macca1626]

I’m actually related to messner😂 he’s my dads sisters 2nd cousin