Middle-earth Mysteries - How did Balin's colony avoid the Balrog?

[@vartanpapazian8342]

It’s not particularly strange when you consider the Balrog entered Moria (presumably through underground caverns) in the first place at the height of Moria’s power and population. It was already the greatest dwarven city by the end of the War of Wrath so the Balrog was used to having a bustling colony above its head from day one. I don’t think it’s a dragon situation where it has a lust to rule and have silence surrounding it. You kind of get the impression Durin’s colony literally disturbed it’s chamber like via a pickaxe to the head lol One has to assume it was the combined presence of another Maiar and the Ring that stirred it in LotR.

[@Lawrence_Talbot]

Yeah that’s how I read it. They literally dug too deep and dug right into the chamber it was sleeping in, either hitting it with an pickaxe not realizing what it was, or knocking a rock lose which then fell onto the sleeping Balrog

[@titanscerw]

Rock to the head? I would be pissed too.

[@jaykubisanidiot8657]

I always pictured the Balrog crashing into the mountains and being buried underground

[@josephvisnovsky1462]

The balrog remained concealed under Khazad-dûm since F.A. until 1980 Third Age. What happened when Gandalf traveled through Moria between 2841 -2850 after meeting King Thrain ll in Dol Guldur? Reclaimed between 2989 - 2994 by Balin, son of Fundin. Did the balrog not sense Gandalf? Was the balrog dormant circa 2841-50? Were Gandalf and the balrog previously aware of each other? Gandalf knew the fellowship should not travel 3019. "Fouler things than orcs".

[@vartanpapazian8342]

@@josephvisnovsky1462 Yeah could be anything, sleeping or otherwise in a coma-like state for vast periods of time. Might not just be omnipotently aware of what’s going on at all times. I always figured the combined presence of Gandalf & the Ring were enough to make it lift its head and see what’s going on. Considering even the watcher went after the ring.

[@hannibalbarca7902]

The best explanation is probably that the Balrog didn't really perceive them as a threat but more as pests. However i'd like to imagine it was preoccupied with a thousand year old anime fight with the nameless things in the deep carverns of Moria.

[@christoperwallace6197]

I mean at least one fight probably happened

[@Uncle_Fred]

It's also possible that the Balrog was not in Moria proper at the time. We know that it accessed Moria from the underdeeps. It's possible that the Balrog was somewhere deep below Moria at this time and just wasn't aware of the dwarven presence.

[@doomhippie6673]

such as awakening the Watcher in the Water.... Who knows what evil demon thingies do. Maybe they were old buddies from their Melkor time? Playing demonic little games in the darkness below. "Hey, Watchi, I'll play the role of a beautiful Elvish princess and you can be... I don't know... a dwarf?", "But I don't know what dwarves look like...."; "Hm, then that is something we shall remedy....".

[@joshthomasmoorenew]

5:08 "its not off brand for evil creatures to spend time chilling" See now i have the image in my head that the Belrog's attacks are just because all the battles were disturbing his beauty sleep and hes really cranky when he wakes up.

[@alanpennie]

That's actually a perfectly fair reading of the text. It massacred dwarves when it was first awoken because it was really cranky after its millennial sleep was disturbed. But once it had calmed down a bit it became much less vicious.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

How much suffering could've been avoided if the Balrog/Smaug/Glaurung were just able to sleep?

[@DoughnutDragon]

4:18 I always thought it was implied that the force of orcs was so great that their movements caused the very earth to shake with their many footsteps marching in unison. The drums not being drums at all but rather the sound of marching reverberating through the massive caverns.

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

I'm of the mindset that the Balrog was like a lord to himself in Moria and set up some 'kingdom' there of his own to rule. Likely the Balrog saw the dwarves as beneath his notice or not worth his direct attention, so sent out the goblins and such to do what they please to the colony as long as it ends up ruined. But with Gandalf and the ring there is a diffrence. The ring likely called out to the Balrog when the fellowship began to go down the deeper levels of Moria before coming back up to reach the exit level, giving enough time for the Balrog to realise they're there and hear the 'calling'. Secondly Gandalf first using Magic on the mountain top and later when attacked by the wargs was a message and great power the Balrog detected, the combination of the two likely where enough to bring the Balrog out into the open to engage this new threat.

[@gideonhorwitz9434]

I see the other way around Moria was not the barogs kingdom but rather self imposed prison or hiding place. Without Morgoth to command them the greatest of his servants would seek to hide where the valar and the Mayar couldn’t reach them which explains why the balrog never ventured out and tolerated the presence of orcs and goblins as they are the lesser creations of the dark lord

[@RomanHistoryFan476AD]

@@gideonhorwitz9434 Can be seen like that as well. Depends which one you prefer.

[@Clyde-S-Wilcox]

"The mines of Moria were vast beyond Gimli's imagination." I dont think even the movies make it clear how enrmormous Moria was.

[@aceofspades9503]

I was rather disappointed with what we saw of Moria in the movies. As a kid reading the books I really wanted to understand how the dwarves actually lived there- did they set up town squares? live in communal buildings or personal apartments? If you live in a cave city, does your living space have a roof or walls? How did they grow and distribute food? I really just wanted to be able to see some hints of what everyday life would have been...but instead we get a really big chamber that doesn't really seem to be useful for anything but storing supporting pillars, and then the guardroom where they get attacked in. Love the movies and even the scenes in Moria, just wishing for a bit more.

[@vartanpapazian8342]

@@aceofspades9503 I always thought the main hall was the support structure but the actual buildings may have been wood and plaster etc that long ago was rotted or repurposed by orcs. The grand empty pillar hall is accurate to the books so yeah makes you think.

[@thomasalvarez6456]

@@aceofspades9503They most likely lived in apartment style buildings. They mostly all had roofs and walls, the great first hall was like a square. They did grow their own food but Erebor also traded for it, so assume the Dwarves got food from Eregion and Lothlorien.

[@thomasalvarez6456]

It’s also likely they grew food, mushrooms would be a good source of food. Some reality would have to be bent for crops and animals to thrive in Moria.

[@Adam-ne7qc]

@@thomasalvarez6456 If "catching light of sun/moon in lamps of crystal" is a bit literal, then you could grow something underground.

[@KitOfTheWeirdWoods]

I haven't cleared all the ants out of my kitchen yet. I'm pretty sure they're mostly under the microwave, but I haven't bothered to move it yet. I do kill them when I see them though. Not to compare myself to a Balrog, but

[@ralphsmith5871]

Steel Beach.

[@Disgruntled_Grunt]

Yep. Yeah. That's probably about how D.B. felt about Balin's company. The sentiment of "Ehh, I'll get to it when I get to it." Until a (relatively) short time later when Gandalf shows up with the Ring in tow, and that's the equivalent of the analogy falling apart because ants don't have superpowered individuals to rival humans among them.

[@KitOfTheWeirdWoods]

@@Disgruntled_Grunt I guess if a hornet or something showed up leading a group of ants through my kitchen I'd take an interest.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Don't sell yourself short. We're all Balrogs to something.

[@christoperwallace6197]

​@@KitOfTheWeirdWoodsI mean flying insects that can sting and don't die must be smited and every opportunity

[@General12th]

Hi Darth! I think your explanation is actually quite reasonable. Balrogs have way too much time on their hands to spend most of it on anything but sleep. (That said, was it coincidence that Mr. Durin's Bane settled down right underneath what would become Moria? Or were both Balrogs and dwarves attracted to gold, gems, mithril, etc.?) I'd love to be able to explore Moria in all its fully-scaled glory. Finding lost treasures, fending off goblins, delving ever deeper, plus dwarven architecture is always cool.

[@balin1920]

Given the description in the book i dont belive the dwarves had more than few dozen in the colony. The tone and emphasis on the names of the fallen gives a feeling of a much smaller group.

[@robb1068]

I could see the Balrog deciding that Balin’s group wasn’t worth the effort and let the orcs deal with them. The Fellowship however, had a fellow Maiar and the Balrog may have felt obligated to take out Gandalf. 5:08 Balrog: “Hey guys… thanks for coming to my barbecue.” Orcs: (laughing nervously) ‘No problem. We uh, just couldn’t say no.” Balrog: “Did I ever tell you guys how me and my brothers put the smack down on Ungoliant?” (sips beer) “Good times, man. Good times.”

[@istari0]

I always thought Balin's colony was simply not enough of a problem for the Balrog to concern itself with. He just left it to the Orcs.

[@Nibelheim1989]

Sneaky little Dwarveses

[@grimgrauman7650]

I love the stile of your videos. The calm way of your "guesses" + what we know from lore and a small joke inbetween is just nice to listen so

[@baystated]

This would be a great what-if. What if Balin's Company wasn't attacked and destroyed by the orcs and survived long enough to welcome the Fellowship, who somehow awakened it.

[@darthwader4472]

Pretty obvious: They had no Pippin.

[@edwardokaa]

It's true, Balin's company only had orcs and a balrog to contend with. That's easy mode compared to Darien. Malaria, embargoes, blockades, and the bane of every Scotsman - the sun! New Caledonia is still uninhabited to this day, whereas Moria was reclaimed in the early fourth age.

[@NathanS__]

And don't forget, Moria existed for another year from the time the Balrog was discovered and it killing King Durin. And that was at the height of the Kingdom so there being a far larger population to draw its attention.

[@rogerbrownreacts8528]

5 years to a Balrog is 5 minutes.

[@romandacil3984]

Excellent video. I often wondered about that as well. When Balin's company arrived in mOria it drove out the Orcs and the Balrog if it was far away from the fighting would have assumed that it was the orcs making noise in the upper levels. The Dwarves would have been cautious in their exploration of the deeps and probably never reached the 7th Deep where the Balrog was. The final destruction of the Dwarves was most certainly done by Orcs. A Balrog would have left Scorch marks everywhere that Gandalf, Legolas & Aragorn would have noticed. The One ring is what attracted the Balrog to go up into the upper city. Gandalf could cloak his presence as he did when he explored Dol Guldur so the Balrog would not have noticed him during his first trek through Moria. Aragorn was alone and not likely to attract attention when he went through.

[@TheMasonK]

An interesting what if scenario could be what if the expedition of Balin was successful but didn’t awaken the Balrog. Gandalf and the one ring showing up in Moria later on awakening the Balrog would’ve been interesting.

[@tonylakes3086]

Yeah I imagine the Balrog wanted to keep a low profile as more or less directing the orcs in Moria to the work for him instead of showing up in his might. Another way of looking at is that the Balrog wanted the dwarves to come deeper into Moria so that he could trap them there so that none could escape and tell the tale.

[@PiraticalBob]

It's noted in the *Of Durin's Folk* section of the *Return of the King* appendices that when the Balrog was first encountered, it slew Durin, and then *a year later* Nain I. So it appears to me that it was clever, and avoided open battle with large groups of dwarves, striking from ambush when the opportunity presented, rather like a venomous snake. Gandalf told the Company of the Ring that the Balrog was "a foe beyond any of you," but balrogs were quite capable of being killed, even in single combat, as Glorfindel proved in the First Age. The only weapons that Durin's Bane displayed during his fight with Gandalf was a fiery sword and the trademark flame whip of his kind. It is likely that if a sufficiently large force of dwarves attacked him, that he would have been killed. I surmise that, after striking from ambush, he would vanish into the darkness of Moria to rest, recover his strength, and plan his next ambush. The dwarves of Moria, after the unforseen deaths of two generations of kings in the space of a year (one of them a reincarnated Durin) were likely so disheartened that they fled Moria to regroup and rebuild their numbers. Thrain I might have been a child at this point and unable to take part in decisions of importance.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

The sheer terror the Balrog emanates and that seemingly incacipates 2/3 of the Fellowship indicates to me that many dwarves would have failed to put up a fight against this otherworldly demon. Remember it was not until the Fall of Gondolin that a Balrog was first slain, by light elves of supreme power in the Unseen that is. I guess the term "large group of dwarves" is vague enough that I may agree with you either way. There is much room for speculation. Maybe Naín I actually sought out the Balrog to avenge his father

[@MrWheelman82]

The Balrog might simply not have felt any urgency in dealing with a few hundred dwarves; when it was an entire city, it might have been worried that they'd attack it and find a way to kill it, while the small colony did not pose a significant threat, especially considering 5 years really isn't that long a time for immortal creatures (or it just had a bad case of procrastination)

[@cowboystormchaser]

I'm really curious how much Pippin's tossing that rock down a well had to do with awakening the Balrog during the Fellowship's visit.

[@wompastompa3692]

That rock landed directly in the Balrog's ear.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

Well it's possible that the Watcher in the Water upon destroying the Elven Gate already gave away that there were intruders or maybe even Gandalf's mere presence was subtly noticed by the Balrog but the timing of events badly imply Pippin... you could however criticise Gandalf for taking at least 15 precious minutes to read the book in the chamber of Mazarbul

[@WhoIsCalli]

This is really interesting. A good topic

[@BelegaerTheGreat]

Poor old Durin's Bane. He just wanted peace and quiet. (And to kill any Wizards that pss through.)

[@YappingLegend]

I personally find that the Balrog was in a sleep like state and woke up but not to any ordinary person but to powerful individuals or powerful objects. The number doesn't.t matter. This can be evidently shown by when the Dwarves received their rings of power and when Moria was ended. It's a difference of around 500 years. It might be that it awoke sensing that there was a powerful object such as the ring and when It woke when Frodo was in Moria It was because of the One Ring which carried part of Sauron, a powerful being.

[@Rynewulf]

I assumed that due to Moria's vast size, that the Balrog only emerged in the first place because they dug absurdly deep (Gandalf even references tunnels so deep while fighting it that were made by gnawing nameless things). As such lone travellers like Gandalf and Aragorn, or relatively small groups like Balin's company simply never caused much attention. Until the One Ring is present, making the tiny Fellowship the exception in the same way later Frodo, Sam and Smeagol can sneak through active warzones such as Osgiliath unnoticed right up until the Ring makes a connection with a great evil such as the Nazgul, or in this case the Balrog

[@joshthomasmoorenew]

I think if someone made a game where you take part in Balin's expedition would be interesting...just so long as it isn't like Shadow of War.

[@user-bt1pm7wo7o]

Will you do a video on the statues outside of cirith ungol.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

Could you please make a video on the mystery of trolls, specifically the mystery of how they procreate?

[@christosvoskresye]

It's safe to say the Balrog didn't come because of Pippin, but because of what Frodo was carrying.

[@squamish4244]

The Balrog was watching Disney+ and eating cornchips while really, really high and it took him five years to notice the racket. Then he was like, "You harshed my buzz, yo!"

[@kineticstar]

Most of the points make sense. It's hard to come up with a better answer without Tolkien himself to clarify.

[@abrahamvonwaltstein8390]

This is about how most of my dwarf fortress adventures turn out.

[@michaelstone5298]

It is also interesting that Gandalf at least, enter the colony through the Westgate previously without being attacked by The watcher in the water 🦑 maybe others did as well? Although maybe the pool wasn't so close to the doorway? And aragorn had been in Moria more than 30 years earlier? How old is he?

[@christoperwallace6197]

87 at the time of the two towers movie. He would live to over 200.

[@christoperwallace6197]

He served with Theodan's dad, as well as Denthor's

[@michaelstone5298]

@@christoperwallace6197 really 🤔

[@michaelstone5298]

@@christoperwallace6197 really I didn't think the man of the time lived that long

[@christoperwallace6197]

@@michaelstone5298 general they don't. However he isn't a normal man. Aragon is descended from Elros, the first King of Numenor and Elrond's brother. He was part elf. So when he chooses to be man (the part elves got to decide whether they would be mortal and die like men or live forever like elves), the powers rewarded him and his people with long life. Elros lived for 500 years, though he was long lived even for Numenorians.Due to their role in the War of Wrath as faithful to the west. It was kinda a reward. By the time of LOTR, this life has diminished. Both from intermarrying with men of middle earth, but also from the Numenorians rebellion. Denethor and Faramir have a lesser form of Numenorians blood. Boramir has an even lesser one. Aragon's is more pure. I think he is the first man to live past 200 since the fall of Numenor. For in novel info, Aragon's date of death is in the appendix of the Return of the King. It was 120 years after the ring was destroyed. I think his son is stated to have ruled for 100 years. Though that's the only info given on the heir of Aragon

[@michaelstone5298]

You need to re-read that part of the books, the 🥁 and 📣 sounded even after the Balrog had gone down the chasm with Gandalf. {So those sounds could not have come from him or at least it's very unlikely), Also they did not encounter the balrog immediately after, {🔥 was seen not long after that but not the Balrog}. Also just because the 21st Hall was their headquarters does not mean that The colony lived their exclusively. It's also interesting that the orcs seemed to have lived, primarily in the upper levels, {as if they were giving the Balrog a wide berth}, well that makes sense we know they were frightened of him. Apparently the idea for Balin's colony, comes at least in part from the Darien scheme, the bankrupt at Scotland in real life.

[@lars9925]

IMHO, the Balrog wouldn’t care at all about a small colony on the upper levels. It had already dealt with far more Orcs, and before that, with the entire Dwarven population of Khazad-dûm. I think it only reacts to significant threats. A vast Dwarven kingdom might be a threat, a large Dwarven army might be a threat, the One Ring might be a threat. But a small colony with a few hundred dwarves isn’t.

[@garycook5071]

It’s possible it didn’t see the colony as a threat

[@Svensk7119]

"Drums, drums in the deep." It didn't. The Ball-rog played with 'em, and let his servants do the fighting.

[@apstrike]

Dwarves make the best plot armor in the world.

[@42hamneggs]

Perhaps the Balrog enjoys causing fear and pain. It might even feed off suffering. That could lead it to toy with it's prey.

[@jefffinkbonner9551]

How would you like to be digging around in the dark and deep when suddenly you break through some rock into a cavity, you look through the new opening, and down over there right below you is a giant, sleeping Balrog smoldering in the dark which could awaken suddenly at the slightest crunch of gravel at any moment?! No thanks. Digging a vegetable garden in the Shire is good enough for me!

[@chewyandchris]

My thoughts maybe it was letting the dwarves stay to mine build great things start repairs then would strike get all the stuff they made and mined but when the orcs attacked realized the dwarves will die so to just take what it can sooner

[@kesho9666]

You didn't mentioned the Watcher. Who, if not the Balrog, put it in that lake as a trap for the Dwarves and as a watcher for future incursions? I think He just toyed with poor Balin's group.

[@bristleconepine4120]

Can anybody provide dates / times when Gandalf and Aragon explored Moria, as well as sources for where to read about it? I remember Gandalf having been there before, but thought that was back before 1980 T.A., when Moria was still Khazad-dûm. Thanks!

[@Crafty_Spirit]

To my knowledge, Aragorn's passage through Moria is not elaborated upon, but to me it's quite obviously a surviving memory from Trotter. At some early stage in the writing of LotR, Trotter had a nasty experience with the Nazgûl in Moria. Aragorn as a character absorbed many features and even experiences of Trotter. There is also an instant where a dream of Frodo in the published novel refers to an event that actually happened in an earlier version - the Nazgûl had him and Gandalf encircled at the Tower Hills of Lindon. I don't see an obvious in-story reason why Aragorn ever decided to take that path and why he retains a dark memory of it. Maybe someone he cared for was abducted by orcs. Or he was young and rash and decided to take this route to save time in traversing the Misty Mountains and testing his nerve. I don't like either to be honest. It would be kind of nice if it was related to the hunt for Gollum but that obviously doesn't work with the timeline, he would have been aware of Balin's colony and its fate, but he does not mention any recent information on Moria.

[@bristleconepine4120]

@@Crafty_Spirit Thanks for the explanation!

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@bristleconepine4120 You are welcome, I'd recommend Dork Lords' video on Trotter, it's a fun look into how wildly characters can evolve in Tolkien's writings

[@gideonhorwitz9434]

I think the reason the balrog only emerges when the fellowship enters Moria was because of Gandalf It always confused me that this powerful creature willingly isolated itself in Kazad dum for 2 ages never once venturing out when it could easily lay waste to the elves of Lorien then it hit me without Morgoth to command it the balrog was fearful it could be hunted down by the servants of the Valar so choose to hide in the darkest hole on the earth Why would a powerful being worry about dwarves or goblins as long as they didn’t interrupt its slumber it was content to leave them alone until Gandalf entered Moria. Both beings to be Mayiar both equally capable of killing each other Gandalf is able to sense its presence and vice versa thus awakening the balrog perhaps fearful that his enemies had finally found it and choose to attack first which sealed its fate.

[@00martoneniris86]

what if king dain 2 ironfood retook Mount cundabad

[@samdegoeij6576]

I'd like to think the dwarves could've defeated a balrog like their ancestors did or asked the other races for help. Given enough time, resources and warriors of course.

[@emwjmannen2]

7:44 smashed? 😜

[@00martoneniris86]

what if balins expedition was a success

[@koheletcalaforexclan6508]

No Took

[@adamloverin4125]

Cheers, fairwell, and remember, it's TH not FR. (just pfaqin with ya.)

[@hermanmelville3368]

He sleep

[@ClareBearBunny]

I have a headcanon that Gandalf and Durin's Bane were in a relationship in the Timeless Halls. Gandalf broke off the relationship when they went to Arda, and that's why Durin's Bane sided with Melkor. Theirs is a more interesting fight when it's two exes who haven't seen each other for thousands of years.

[@christianholzschuh6853]

i read how did Britains Colony avoid the Balrog. I'm disappointed to be honest.