MIDNIGHT TIDES - Malazan Book 5 Spoiler Discussion ft. Philip Chase, AP, and Allen

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks for hosting yet another fantastic Malazan discussion, Jimmy! Not only did we have the always amazing A.P. and Allen, but it's the first time I've seen both Erikson and Esslemont show up for a livestream on KZbin. I feel like that might be some kind of Malazan milestone!

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Some would be even call it a... Convergence. Heh Thanks for being a part of the discussion my friend, your input is so valuable!

[@TheLibraryofAllenxandria]

Great stuff. Thanks again for hosting, Jimmy and for guiding us in a super fun discussion!

[@thefantasynuttwork]

@@TheLibraryofAllenxandria thanks for being here mate!

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

I like how you guys think that guy was Esslemont actual. He must have gotten a new hamster for his modem 😂

[@thefantasynuttwork]

@@Paul_van_Doleweerd lmao

[@jeroenadmiraal8714]

"Rhulad gets a magical sword, and gains a few pounds." -AP. Haha wonderful

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Top notch hahah

[@JD-td8kl]

Midnight Tides and Toll the Hounds are unquestionably my favourite books of the series. Stellar bits of work.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Nice!

[@fenderjazzthunder]

Making my way through the series for the first time currently and these chats are great for things you may not have caught!

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Glad they’re helpful!

[@thatsci-firogue]

Rhulad's resurrection is how I imagine a resurrection would actually be like. Maddening, terrifying and absolutely traumatising. A lot of stories just brush that stuff off and move on like it never happened which is why Resurrection is my least favourite storytelling trope.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Yup, there must be a Price for it

[@Wouter_K]

Thank you for a wonderful discussion. It is a great way to slowly recover from the high of finishing this awesome book. It is really one of my favorites up to here. I could say a million things, but you've already said so much good stuff. Just thanks!

[@thefantasynuttwork]

I’m so happy you enjoyed this!

[@NKopp714]

Even though you posted this 9 months ago, and I last read Midnight Tides 3 years ago, stumbling onto this chat today totally made my weekend chores highly enjoyable! Thanks to all!

[@thefantasynuttwork]

I'm glad you enjoyed it!

[@emmur0]

Just finished MT and this was my favorite roundup I’ve seen. Great to see commentary from the four you on a fantastic novel. Looking forward to reading Bonehunters and hopefully the video for that.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

That's awesome to hear, thank you! Enjoy TBH because it's probably my fav of the 10!

[@Andre-xl2oe]

Great discussion, great guests, thanks. This is probably my favourite of the series.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

I appreciate it!

[@nilanniruthan]

Woke up early on a Sunday morning just to watch this. Great discussion!

[@thefantasynuttwork]

We appreciate it man! Thanks!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Thanks, Professor Badd!

[@SkrubsTheNeko]

As someone who was spoiled about bugg before reading, I can say it did not make me like midnight tides any less. Instead of it being a crazy reveal, it now felt like i was in on the gambit with him.

[@Thorbearius]

This was so much fun, these two hours just flew by!

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Thanks! Was so fun 😄

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

Wait, I stopped watching after 2 hours, and a panel with Allen and AP didn't go for another 2 hours? I am disappointed..

[@plumeofsmoke2871]

This is the first video I have watched of yours or any of the participants. This series really engenders itself to discussion. There is just so much to get through. I read the series up to the end of the Bonehunters at publication and have just recently listened to the audiobooks to catch up so that I can finally finish this series. Anyhow, I really enjoyed this conversation and will check out more of all of your videos.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Thank you so much!

[@KIRI77]

I wanted to share my thoughts on the Crimson Guard too in these comments, I've just finished the novel and I'm watching an content related to it now, so far I've read books 1-5 and night of knives and two Korbal/bauchelain novels. I was told to not expect much of the Crimson guard in book of the fallen because that's essentially esselmonts thing, and so I wasn't expecting much. So when they appeared in this novel I was very pleasantly surprised, and thus far whenever they have appeared in book of the fallen, little snippets in Gardens of the Moon for example, I've really enjoyed them. Iron bars has definitely become a favourite for me because of this novel. And I have a lot of interest in this company, starting from their appearance in GoTM, and references to them in Night of Knives that really speaks to there ability as a formidable company, Iron bars is more literal proof of that. Until NoK I thought they were much smaller in scale, and that they were all on Genebackis, but no they are very widespread and are involved in different continents like Korelri for example. There are plenty of combat feats in this novel but one thing I want to mention specifically is that the errant is impressed by there ability, to which bugg casually replies that they managed to escape assail, which is sort of seen as a feat in of itself, showing how dangerous of a continent Assail is, and how formidable Iron bars and his group is. As well as this they are said to have some internal conflicts in MoI which is the reason for their absence during the whole pannion domin thing. A lot of interesting questions/intrigue being raised and specifically in this novel, Iron bars makes an ambiguous comment about being avowed, in response to Sandalath's (the andii that ends up with withal) compassion regarding it, saying "we all make mistakes". This was very interesting, does he regret becoming avowed?, is he now bound by his oath permanently? until death?. Finally I want to mention that the errant asks Iron Bars how many avowed are left, to which he estimates a few hundered, the errant says something like "scattered here and there", to which Iron bars replies "for the moment". This makes me look forward to the Return of the Crimson Guard novel, and although I don't want to set up any expectations, maybe perhaps those scattered remnants converge somewhat for a said "return", I mean they are already very present within the world, so this "return" could be more in a united sense.

[@MrHehj]

Loved this - thanks, gang! I find I struggle to sit and watch a 30 minute book review but give me a meandering two hour plus discussion any day.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Hahah thank you!

[@Jabberwhorl_Cronstadt]

I just finished Midnight Tides and have been consuming quite a few podcasts and KZbin videos about it and have yet to hear any conversation about a minor theory I have: Sandalath Drukorlat (the redhead Tiste Andii that the Crippled God brings to keep Withal company on the beach) is Korlat's (Whiskeyjack's lady friend from Memories of Ice) mother. They share a name and Sandalath does briefly mention that her daughter has draconic blood and follows around Anomander Rake. Probably inconsequential but thought it might be something. Anyways, LOVED this chat. So much fun. I think you've mentioned it before Jimmy, one of the best parts of finishing a Malazan book is all the content you unlock by doing so 😁

[@thefantasynuttwork]

It's definitely the best feeling to "unlock" all that content haha I really like that theory and am so curious if it's true! Maybe someone can ask Erikson 👀

[@manzanogianni4935]

It is such a treat for me to have these videos to access as I complete each installment of Malazan Book of the Fallen. Thank you gentlemen.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

I’m glad you enjoy them!

[@LiteratureScienceAlliance]

I am so happy to have finally seen this discussion!

[@feral7523]

Well we know that Silchis Ruin knew what Scabandari was going to do as he said something like" It was preferable to be in the Azath for milenia rather than have the faith of Scabandari" he also said the Gods of this world(Mael&Menandore) are gonna whoop him or something like that so he knew about the stab in the back.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Oh wow

[@billyalarie929]

Jimmy your point about authorial intent re: foreshadowing is so good, so important, so encouraging, because there’s so much just in my own life that requires nuance that would take multiple readings to fully comprehend, and as a writer it is my hope and desire, perhaps even my destiny, to write analogous situations that have that same level of depth, nuance, and importance. And frankly, the very cadence of the intention.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Absolutely!

[@IskarJarak]

Great conversation with some great dudes

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Thanks my man, it was too fun honestly 🤣

[@feral7523]

Loved Harlest the Undead Vampire wannabe with he's fangs!!

[@barrilrayder]

Thsi was fantastic, I just finished the book last week and this was amazing.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

I'm so glad you enjoyed it. Phenomenal book!

[@tomsativa]

I'm remembering to keep turning the page. Rereading malazan and rewatching the discussions..learning more each time lol. Only book series I've rewatched stuff on bc so much happens

[@thefantasynuttwork]

I’m glad you’re checking them out!

[@KIRI77]

One thing that struck me during this discussion is the comparison of warped history between the Edur and the Toblakai on the Laederon Plateau. On one hand you have the Toblakai whose history is filled with a bunch of fake glories (positive history), which does not match/reflect the current state they have been reduced to. On the other hand you have the Edur warped history that is supposed to be a tragedy that afflicts them, because they believe that they were betrayed (negative history), but they have not been reduced similarly to the Toblakai or even more directly in this novel, the remnants of the Andii from the betrayal back then, at Bluerose, and the blood in those Andii remnants has thinned since then which is a sign of that reduction you can say. When you also look at the Gods of both of these tribes, you can see that the Edur in reality have an absence of Gods, because Scabandari is dead, his soul trapped in eternal punishment and sheltatha lore is trapped within the confines of the Azath. Whereas the Toblakai have "Gods" to worship, but they aren't even Toblakai, they are deceiving the laederon tribes. So on one hand you have Edur with Edur gods who aren't really there, and on the other hand you have Toblakai gods who are present, but are not even Toblakai gods themselves, but actually just t'lan imass. Both of these are facades. And we can see how the Crippled God takes advantage of both these situations, The Edur have an absence which the Crippled God fills with himself, and the Toblakai are being taken advantage of by the T'lan imass in order for them to escape where they are bound, so the Crippled God offers a form of escape, as long as he gets to command these imass and therefore manipulate the Toblakai also.

[@vinodvagadurgi414]

I couldn't get the massmarket on this, but paperback was okayish to read I would definitely choose mass markers

[@derrisreaditbefore]

I'm sad I missed this - talk about the dream team for Malazan discussion! Highly entertaining :)

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Thanks Derri, you were missed 😁

[@Cieges]

Good discussion. I loved this book so much. Rhulad truly induces sympathy and hate all together. And now for the Erickson discussion!

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Yessss

[@charlesburge2564]

This was the best one so far in my opinion

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Agreed!

[@mich7008]

What a great watch for me Jimmy! I’m just starting Reapers Gale and I need to see if you’ve put out anything on BH’s yet. Which by the way is my favorite book thus far. I really loved Midnight Tides but it left me in such a dark place. Thank you for this discussion.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

My pleasure, glad you enjoyed it! TBH discussion is coming soon!

[@ThisIsJaysWorld]

26:49 There it is!! I was timing to see how long it would be before one of you cracked a joke about Ublala Pung's...assets 😂

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Record time!

[@JarrodShadowsonng]

Don’t mind me, just can’t wait for the Bonehunters one.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Planning for next week I think!

[@billyalarie929]

That’s Phillip Chase’s villain origin story. Now he’s out for vengeance!

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Hahaha

[@ivansplvd6518]

I may need to reread the series, favorite book no.3

[@algea_algea]

Yesss. Allen nailed it. Long Price Quartet has the same rich melancholy set over it similar to MT.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Allen is definitely a LPQ evangelist haha

[@ReallyGoodandKind]

When Rukket is flirting with Bugg she says “I feel you would be an excellent lover” “Aye, the very oceans heaved” drawled bugg

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Hahahahah

[@ACriticalDragon]

Thanks Jimmy, this was a lot of fun. Sorry that you ended up wrangling cats for most of the discussion. Next time I promise to try to stay on track.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Hahaha noooo, the banter is the best part 🤣 Thanks for coming on friend, love your insights and humor

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Stay on track? What track? Oh, the one that meanders all over the place from fireball to fireball!

[@TheLibraryofAllenxandria]

It was educational to learn of Philip's villainy. I feel betrayed that I thought him a protagonist for so long.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@TheLibraryofAllenxandria Framed! I’ve been framed. That’s what truly devious villains do to the hero. I mean, when has the dude throwing fireballs around ever been the hero?

[@TheLibraryofAllenxandria]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Literally every wizard character in every DnD party since the game was invented. 😛

[@Vinnie2501]

Trull is the main reason a lot of fans sometimes read five before four on rereads. Or it's an option at least.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

How interesting!

[@davidjaramillo7187]

if all discworld has the same energy as Tehol and Bugg do im IN for a hell of a ride then.

[@KIRI77]

Nutts says the edur are the good guys at this point in the story which is funny because, throughout this novel different characters like bugg etc, express the opinion that the edur aren't going to fare much better than the letheri as occupiers, and there is this whole notion within the novel that EVEN if the Edur win, they still lose ultimately which I think is brought up by Gerun. This systematic structure of value, and the value of money, is going to end up poisoning the edur, and what ultimately makes the Edur's notion of expansion any better than the letheris?, both believe they are destined and there failures will ultimately rebound into greater successes. Rhulad understands that he has to eradicate the value of money, with some hinting from udinaas. By the end of the novel we see feather witches thoughts of, the conquerors being destroyed by what they have conquered.

[@demidrek-heyward]

I am comforted in knowing that the golden emperor James Nutts will continue making the best booktube content on the webz, long after the first time he is brought down, only to return even stronger than ever, for ever and ever

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Amen

[@Vinnie2501]

You made me ask a question I didn't have before. Could Brys stand against Daseem?

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Now I wanna know lol

[@MacScarfield]

About weird resources to go to war over: In the 19th century, guano (bat and sea bird excrement, as made famous by the celebrated documentary " Ace Ventura 2: When Nature Calls") became prized as a vital source of saltpeter for gunpowder as well as an agricultural fertilizer. This lead to a war ("The War of the Pacific"/"The Saltpeter War") between Chile and an alliance of Peru and Bolivia from 1879 to 1884 and the export of Guano from Peru might have been the source for the Potato Blight that caused the Great Potato Famine in Ireland. To this very day "The Guano Islands Act" of 1856 enables citizens of the United States to take possession, in the name of the United States, of unclaimed islands containing guano deposits located anywhere, so long as they are not occupied and not within the jurisdiction of another government. It also empowers the President of the United States to use military force to protect the lslands and enforce US law. So the US has a literal "B@tsh/t law" to protect their supply of b@tsh/t, that allow the US President to go to war over b@tsh/t...

[@thefantasynuttwork]

That is wild

[@MacScarfield]

@@thefantasynuttwork You should mention that story if you talk to Erikson about Midnight Tides!

[@Gl1tch2263]

15:12 November Midnight Tides reread? ✏️

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Should I pencil it in?!

[@KidCodybro]

Is there a compendium somewhere of where these group reviews are for the first 4 books?

[@thefantasynuttwork]

I've covered the first 4 in various video formats, if you look on my channel the Malazan playlist should have them all

[@KidCodybro]

@@thefantasynuttwork awesome thank you! This style of discussion helps to fill the gap for those of us looking to speak with friends about the books.

[@feral7523]

Scabandari and Roose Bolton have a lot in common, they both go to war and hold back their armies then stabs they're ally.

[@thefantasynuttwork]

I like this comparison

[@demidrek-heyward]

Allen " And sadly I don't have Ublala Pung's .......... Lung capacity" cmon Allen finish the sentence correctly 🙄

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Hahahahahahahahaha

[@angelaholmes8888]

Midnight tides was a decent read but I didn't love it

[@thefantasynuttwork]

Dang! I loved it but TBH is definitely better for me.

[@benjaminmolina3456]

Debt taking you to bad places, just look at all those poor OF user.........