The Ultimate LOOSE to TIGHT Fighting Game Tier List

#fightinggames #tierlist #loose
I'm killing the loose/tight conversation NOW!
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[@GlutenDSena]

>Looking for a new fighting game >Ask the GameStop employee if the new fighting game is tight or loose >She doesn't understand >Bring out a diagram explaining what's tight and what is loose >She laughs and says "it's a good game sir" >Buy the game >It's tight

[@TheBigSad8247]

As max stated: tight doesn't mean bad.

[@TheBigSad8247]

@@user-n9990 Subjective. Samurai Showdown is my favorite fighting game franchise because its emphasis on knowledge checks and out witting your opponent who basically plays the same game as you. You chip at each other's health until you find an opening in your opponents playstyle and capitalize on their vulnerabilities. I find that more fun then watching your character in a feature-length combo because you couldn't block the 5th 50/50 mix up in a row. I'm not a fan of taking turns going from block string to blocking until someone messes up. Not to mention, I'd rather lose to someone who outsmarted me, than to someone who simply picked a better character than me. Not saying "tight" fighting games don't have obvious metas or anything, but it is WAY less obnoxious than the "loose" fighting games, and the balance is more confined. A low tier character in Street Fighter is not as unviable as a low tier MVC character. Edit: I am not sure where you are getting this trend from. SF is still one of the biggest games out there and it's on the tighter side of the spectrum. Despite it's flaws, people still enjoy it. Fantasy Strike is an amazing fighting game, and it's tight as all hell. If you mean tight fighting games aren't as much as a visual spectacle as loose games, then sure. Visually, loose games are more entertaining for the casual audience to look at, but the only people who care if a fighting game is visually exciting are the spectators, not much the players. The players mainly care if the gameplay is fun and intuitive (excluding netcode, art style, etc.). Context since they deleted the comment: They basically said tighter games tend to be less fun than looser games. And basically, I'm saying what's fun is subjective.

[@sourcesauce]

damn a greentext on youtube that actually got me to exhale through my nose, upvotes to you sir!!

[@rycalamo2684]

@@TheBigSad8247 Fantasy Strike is not an amazing FG lol, it’s okay at best imo

[@MUGENanaya]

out of many places i expected the creepy wet greentext in a maxdood comment section is not one of them

[@paperluigi6132]

0:46 Hot take, but the spin-off, Chicken Fingers, had a much better combo system, and command grabs were actually useful.

[@r.f.switch5847]

Didn't that game invent the phrase "flippin' n' dippin'?"

[@TheRASDEL83]

I rather play the true spiritual successor "Buffalo Wings" much better roster IMHO

[@omgmoreryan]

New sauce mechanics took it over the top tbh

[@VGFGE]

KfConsole needs to make a reboot of Chicken Tendeez. It’s basically the company’s Darkstalkers. Very underrated

[@bekimmehmedi2905]

Fried Chicken thighs had the best synergy in the series, perfect rooster, inventive bone in bone out tag system and the best sizzlest combo structure. Not to mention how oily that movement was, fried chicken thighs is the best.

[@PressRToZeus]

Dude, listening to you talk about all this and your understanding of fighting games is so enrapturing. Love hearing this kind of thing

[@tyler_keeble]

I barely play fighting games and I could listen to him talk about them for hours

[@TheDedChicken]

I've always loved fighting games but always been terrible at them. This whole channel is like a secret inner sanctum that I never thought I'd be a part of.

[@haruhidaso]

I think a great way to show looseness is how much player expression is visible through just gameplay. All game has player expression, but how much depends on the game. Good example would be Melee where commentator Toph, figured out he’s playing Leffen who was using an alt account or something within the first 2-3 interaction when he was playing net play.

[@ZwhatshQ]

@Spirit Watch the video lmao

[@brain_tonic]

Another cool example: For a while in ultimate, there were 3 top players using Aegis, and each one had a distinctly different style. - Cosmos was primarily a Mythra player, he mostly uses bnb combos, gets you offstage and then fishes for F smash edge guard or ledge trap setups. He also likes to tech chase under platforms with lightning buster or up smash. - MKLeo favoured Pyra. Instead of going for bnb he’ll frequently bait out air dodges or panic options and punish with Dair > imagination. He also goes offstage with Mythra quite a bit more than average. -Sparg0 had the most dynamic style, often switching character in the middle of his combos and still continuing the string! He also loves to switch multiple times in disadvantage and offstage to mixup his recovery. Nowadays they each play different characters but it was neat to see their different interpretations of the same character for a while.

[@fetkreb6216]

@@brain_tonic some did say mythra was like a melee character

[@yep8673]

For me Tekken 7 hits the sweet spot in terms of "looseness". Every character in the game has some sort of unique execution/ decision making that you can get good at. The game inherently encourages you to grind out a character and get good. At the top level you see character specialists with a beautiful synergy of execution, knowledge and reads that's very fun to watch.

[@PowerTheGamer]

This. Fun with friends, even better as competition.

[@exiaR2x78]

I honestly wouldnt even consider Tekken 7 loose, it would be kinda tight

[@depthshade837]

i think tekken combos are so …. long, getting hit by a mid might launch you to a combo that takes more than 10 sec

[@TakaComics]

The S3 stuff and interactions have made it much looser. Like, half the time I see something and go “ok but why?”

[@grantgarbour]

@@depthshade837 not usually

[@MajoraZ]

I think Pokken's phase shift system (where it switches between 2d and 3d) is an example of a "tight" mechanic that helps increase competitive depth: shifts from 2d to 3d occur when a player fills out the hidden phase shift counter, (in 2d, moves add different amounts of points to the counter on hit) At a basic level, it acts as an anti-infinite system that forces a return to neutral, with the 3d phase only lasting for one heavy hit acting as a second buffer layer to neutral play. At high level play, you need to be actively weighing and changing your move choices and combo composition up based on if causing a shift or staying in the 2d phase would be more to your advantage/optimal: Maybe you have the other player in the corner, and have to pick between a combo that's safer or does more damage, but the counter is almost full and it'd cause a shift and would let the other player out of pressure, vs one with less immediate returns but would keep you in the 2d phase and your advantage state as a sort of reset. Or maybe you're at low health but almost have full meter, and you have to choose between a higher damage combo that keeps you in the current phase, and one that does less but would cause a shift, giving you bonus meter and allowing you to get burst and use your super and enables health regen. The system does limit what options you can preform at any given moment and overall combo length (though there are much longer combos people have found and use since Max first tried the game in 2016, I really hope he checks it out again at some point), but it makes high level play way more dynamic and really rewards adaptive skill and punishes flowcharting and empahsizes neutral play. The way the game handles attack heights (where they exist for moves to bypass and punish each other during their active frames, rather then to bypass and punish blocking) also encourages similar values with adapative play, enabling more returns to neutral and reversals, etc. Overall I'd put Pokken in "Kinda Tight" since while the phase shift mechanic really does constrain your options at any given moment (or rather, results in less optimal upsides), there's a HUGE amount of variety in the playstyle of characters, not just between each character but in how different players of the same character can use them: Two players can use Braixen or Weavile or Mewtwo in very different ways and still be successful and high level play, and low to bottom tier characters still make top 8s or win majors not that infrequently. There's also some pretty nutty tech with some characters and some systemss, like Thermodynamics to use 2d phase moves even in the 3d phase.

[@Pixygon]

Damn, I had no idea Pokkén Tournament had such an involved system for phase shifting. I remember when I tried it for the Wii U, it was probably the easiest fighter to pick up and play that I'd ever tried; Smash Bros. included. I really ought to pick up DX one of these times.

[@MajoraZ]

@@Pixygon Yeah, the game's really technical, it's just not really obvious from it's marketing or even at first glance while playing due to how different some of it's systems are (as I said, the height system being for reversals and punishes rather then to open up blocking). If you do check out DX, i'd also be happy to answer questions/direct you to community resources, etc.

[@Pixygon]

@@MajoraZ Ooh yes please, I’d appreciate it very much if you could direct me to the best resources, just in case I do end up picking it up. Thanks!

[@MajoraZ]

@@Pixygon If you got a twi tte, then DM me, i'm Majora__Z there

[@Balthazar2242]

Hell yeah Pokken

[@jeffjuice3886]

As someone born in the 80s, I grew up with the slang use of "tight", meaning cool/awesome etc. So this list kept fucking with me when Max was calling a game tight lol

[@mychaeljones7526]

90s baby

[@KitoBallard]

Was thinking after listening to Max explaining how the "Loose vs Tight" is, I was all "Skullgirls is hella loose man. Everyone plays the characters in different ways" and he also puts it there. Tells me he explained his system rather well hehe

[@fishyboi98]

Something I gathered from this whole conversation is that the games that balance how loose/tight they are tend to be favored more by both competitive and casual players. Take Smash Ultimate, for example. I'd argue that to a casual player that game is simple to pick up and enjoy, but more options open up when players get deeper into competitive play. It doesn't force experimentation and overwealm new players, it gives people the options to play at whatever pace they'd like while still having the Looseness to keep competitive players engaged.

[@123bboymeandyou]

Only reason no one takes smash as a serious fighting game is that it’s a party game the fans made competitive

[@ooffordays566]

I pretty much agree. The kinda tight/loose area seems to be the area with the most success. Get deeper into the loose region and it's mostly a competitive players only game that most newbies will never be able to break into, whereas you get too deep into the tight region and you really start to lose hardcore players and are only really met with casual players that prefer having limitations. Of course, there are exceptions (I know GG fans were pretty hostile to how tight Strive was, even while it was more loose than a lot of its peers, and a lot of Tekken fans got sick of how loose T7 was with Rage and the like, even though it doesn't delve very far in the loose region).

[@marseaman]

However i think that it's easier to balanc loose/tight-ness if your game has like 80 characters.

[@Skelliiie]

that's actually a really good description of why Ultimate has done so well, I would love it if traditional fighters could learn something from that. Like it's so much easier to coerce my friends into playing smash with me than literally any traditional fighting game, they all think it's way too hard to get into. It comes back to the whole thing about how bad fighting games are at the onboarding process for casual players.

[@elmaionesosexo]

@@123bboymeandyou here we go again

[@gaminglakitu]

As someone who watches Will It Kill a lot, every game that's made it on there goes in Damn Loose and everything that hasn't made an appearance goes in Damn Tight

[@jonteguy]

I agree that T7 is Hella Loose, so many different scenarios can happen in that game that you never expected that it kind of has to be imo.

[@djsiddiki3430]

Nope... 2 combos and you dead

[@damonblack1495]

I just recently got back into fighting games after a nearly 2 decades long break. I bought all the most modern and even previous generation of titles I played long ago. I got MK11+X and SF5 & 4 for example. My favorite to play has been MK11 with Tekken 7 being a very close second place. I did play a ton of Tekken 3 and Tag and I was very pleased to find out everything I learned way back when could still be applied to T7. I will continue to be a fan and tout my fandom as long as they continue to reward legacy investment. But I can't even put my finger on exactly what it is about MK11 that makes me enjoy it. I'm kind of surprised that most folks seem to crap on the game. My only complaints with it has been that special moves seem to be a bit too difficult to execute and the inputs in general are very obnoxious. When your dancing around with someone in neutral and a spear or w/e comes out when all you wanted to do is poke out a punch for example. And I get especially frustrated, screaming at the game "Oh, finally decided to toss one out did ya?!" But I was hoping this list would help me understand something I'm not seeing. It did not. But cool list anyway.

[@Nijwol707true]

Ah, chicken tendies is one of my favorite fighting games. It has the best story mode as well

[@mitzi3262]

I agree with the tekken thing, there's so many things that make the game feel loose. Like, oh if I get a counter hit I get a crazy combo or if their back is turned or depending on the stage with certain charters you could eat 70% combos.

[@DANCERcow]

Tekken's big labia probably has something to do with how loose it is!

[@mikuxlukalover22]

This is a god like comment.

[@onimaxblade8988]

Even old less comboy heavy tekken has huge swings too.

[@Guil_P]

The movement and 3d hit/hurtboxes across almost 50 characters interacting at all sorts of distances and angles causes a lot of the looseness.

[@skydragonx8]

The tierlist to top all tierlists, I loved watching this live it was a ton of fun

[@trevorghalt1881]

This is a good list because you don't want something too tight and it make you crack in the first minute or something to loose and it's just too much to explore

[@VulpeRenard]

This reminds of reading through the instruction booklet of Bloody Roar: Primal Fury on how being in different forms opened up more cancel windows to the point where in Hyperbeast, you could infinitely use supers and cancel *any move into another* and the fact that I still understand very little of what you could do in that game.

[@HyperbeastTV]

Bloody Roar 1,2,3 and PF/EX are hella loose, BR4 is SFL.

[@VulpeRenard]

@@HyperbeastTV Never played 4 unfortunately, didn't have a PS2 at the time. Should probably find a work around for that at this point.

[@MapleMilk]

Honestly is probably one of the better ways to know what type of fighting games you'll like. I always consider MVC 2 super fun because it's so loose and wild but I couldn't get into Smash Ultimate because it felt stiff after awhile. It's speed, "stiffness", and subgenre that really forms a fighting game's identity to me in my brain of brains So this is a good tier list

[@bluefalcon6356]

Yeah, amazing tierlist. Because for me, the shit ass crazyness that was mvc2 was intriguing, but I wasn't skilled enough for it, and even when I understood fighting games and got really good at sf2, third strike and Virtua fighter, I couldn't comprehend the crazyness. Too much stuff going on for me. Perfect list for people based on what they want

[@dunkelgrau538]

This video reminded me of something. I didn't really think about it because I only played it for a couple of hours and deleted the game. Limiting the number of specials in MK11 is an incredibly stupid idea. That's one of the main reasons that turned me off MK11.

[@jeremyroberts8822]

Man I totally agree!! The variations suck man, it’s so lame how they basically gutted every characters combo potential by splitting up all the special moves between 2 or 3 variations. Like just give us access to all the characters moves and let us explore possibilities. Also the gear system was not nearly as well done as it was in injustice 2

[@KCAssassin98]

It depends on how you think about it. Technically every fighting game character has limited specials because the devs could've kept making more. You're looking at it as if they made a fully fledged character and split them into pieces but you could just as easily look at a single variation as a complete character and the alternate moves as an addition to the character.

[@KCAssassin98]

@@_Jay_Maker_ You aren't comprehending. My point is that a complete character is an arbitrary concept. for example lets say sub zero had all the moves listed in mk11 equipped so he literally had all variations at once. if they added more moves after that and made them equipable to different variations it would still by op's logic be limiting the number of specials despite having all the moves he initially wanted.

[@williamcalhoun883]

@@jeremyroberts8822 MK11s gear system wasn't great, but INJ2 wasn't much better. The grind to get gear was a lot better in MK11, it's just that it wasn't customizable enough. But INJ2, you'd play for hours and get everything for every other character except your main, and even when you got pieces, it kinda just ended up being, "do you want armored look #1, or armored look #2." If they do it again, they need legitimate variety, on top of bringing back MK11s way to unlock the pieces.

[@BrianBrown-vd1vv]

MK11 was just a big step back imo. Less fun, less interesting characters, slower pace, and more restrictive. Hopefully they can correct course with the next one.

[@shortesnameofalltime]

As a smash player smash 4 is kinda high tbh that game is tight as fuck

[@zekiel2533]

I had a feeling a tier list of some kind was coming. Or a top ten from max. Good to see that he's rating alot of games not just a few

[@danielsmithiv1279]

It's not a tier list. It's a list determining what's loose and what's tight. Not a tier list. A tier list is "Which game is better than the other." That's not the case in this situation here.

[@zekiel2533]

@@danielsmithiv1279 it's still a tier list. Just of a different kind determining what is tight and what is loose based in his preference which is loose. And also tier list is in the title of the video. Bruh lol

[@danielsmithiv1279]

@@zekiel2533 Don't worry. I just listened to Dixie's "My Drip" song to redeem myself for failing to read the video title.

[@kerry53421]

Thank you for making this Max! You are a legend at what you do. Keep on with the amazing content

[@rexriply]

this reminds me of the Doom eternal debate where within the Doom community some people where arguing that eternal limits player creativity compared to Doom 2016 because some weapons are designed to work better against some enemies like the plasma rifle shredding through shielded enemies even though you still had plenty of creativity if I where to categorize does two games I would say 2016 is hella loose to a detrimental degree where there's not much strategy or player engagement just use whatever weapon while Eternal is Loose there's definitely by design weapons that work better than others in specific situations but there is still multiple ways you can approach a scenario

[@VinceOfAllTrades]

I disagree with KoF being placed lower than 3S. Sure, 3S has parries, but KoF's got way more movement options and the Drive cancels.

[@PrisonMike196]

Wth is 3S anyways?

[@Skallva]

@@PrisonMike196 Third Strike

[@andrewroes7942]

Smash 4 is a really weird game for this honestly, especially compared to Ult. I'm obv biased as a s4 Shulk main, the character with the most tech that was super insane which mostly got removed in Ult, but on one hand Ult's speed adds a lot for it as well as some movement being less restricted, while on the other hand it feels like a lot of characters have been homogenized. So much character specific stuff was toned down, practically every windbox was removed, overall the game is just as janky as smash 4, but it's got less individual charm for each character (Note I'm saying this mostly about the base cast, the DLC is insane). Ult has better balance so you *see* some more of what has to offer, but I think smash 4 had a more interesting and diverse (base) roster gameplaywise even if Bayo Cloud and maybe a few other top tiers dominated every tourney. Even at the bottom tiers, Ganon feels like he had more ways to approach him in s4.

[@brain_tonic]

Hard disagree. The ways in which the cast got homogenized opened up options for characters. As someone who mained a low/mid tier in Ike in Smash 4, it was definitely highly restricted as to what options you're allowed to do, because too many of your buttons are too slow. In Ultimate the homogenized jump squat and auto-L-cancel means even slow characters can throw out safe aerials. It allows characters like Bowser to feel like he doesn't have a lot of endlag on his attacks because he can cancel out a lot of the lag simply by fast falling. Grounded options are also more accessible for slower characters since you can use standing moves out of a run, it means you don't have to do "the smash 4" run-up shield all the time. Ultimate definitely way looser than Smash 4 in most cases. Your Shulk player bias is showing :)

[@andrewroes7942]

@@brain_tonic Yeah that is pretty fair, the lowered landing lag across the board does a LOT for the looseness, but at the same time it feels like so many character's gameplans are more the same. I do think Ult overall is more loose but I wouldn't put them far apart from each other, they both are and arent for different reasons imo. that or my Shulk bias is reaching critical mass lmao

[@SoyOllin]

This video is great, I just wish it was longer because on twitch this was at least a 3 hour conversation 😂

[@Pixygon]

Ditto. Was just looking at the playbar and thinking about how I wished the video was longer when it cut to the complete tier list. This was very interesting.

[@Amaling]

I think Melee should AT LEAST be in the second highest tier here because of one very simple factor, Melee has by far the loosest Defense we’ve ever seen in a fighting game. Shield light shield powershield shieldrop dash away wave dash away waveshine amsah tech DI SDI teching tech roll sit for as long as you want before doing a late tech after you got knocked down roll ledge stall and there’s definitely some I’m missing. It’s just on a completely different level, and most of these are just things the community figured on their own. By comparison something like guilty gear which is a very loose franchise we get many more defensive options than the average fighting game (still not as much as melee) but they’re all intended except debatably some niche option select stuff some characters have. Most of the melee stuff is from people messing around with the engine and figuring stuff out, that is a sign of a not just incredibly but historically loose game

[@GhibliNova]

Ultimate is kinda tight. Nothing you can do is a suprise to the devs, but there's a good amount you can do. Like Ultra SF4

[@brain_tonic]

Don’t need to do super surprising stuff to be kinda loose. Combo routes can get pretty nutty in Ultimate, especially with stuff like z catch aerials or character specific stuff like psi magnet combos and link bomb combos. Movement and general speed of the game is also pretty high which adds freedom. Being able to use standing buttons out of run, having 3 frame jump squat meaning you’re always 3 frames away from being able to use an aerial are also freeing.

[@dextra_24703]

I feel like Strive would be loose if they would add the Xrd gatling system because that allows all hits to combo into everything else.

[@Yee-Haw_Bird]

They removed a lot of the higher level mechanics in Smash ultimate compared to 4. No more perfect pivoting or shield dropping, (dropping through platforms while keeping shield up) In terms of universal options I think they removed more than they added. Since also they changed how the c-stick operates being a macro removes the BIDOU control method. (makes the analog stick able to do one frame movement inputs very easily) The only universal mechanic that ADDs to the game imo in ultimate is the change of parries/perfect shield.

[@earlyman7439]

They had to scrub that all that ntentionally from the physics engine, when you consider how much of ult is reused assets from 4 at base launch.

[@TheTheJoegrine]

I didnt think perfect pivoting added much variety to the game. Compare it to ultimate where characters like Terry and Ken who has charge partitioning, RT Coiling and a lot of kara-cancelling moves and they never removed it in later patches. The C-stick macro actually characters to do those kinda things. It allowed the players of those characters for free flow as most of their moves cancel into eachother. I recall there were a lot of Japanese pro players on the dev team for ultimate and they leaned towards more characters specific tech than universal, and in addition to 90+ matchups. Makes the game very hard and loose. Also the parry mechanic is also good choice for this kind of game as it allows momentum shifts in a match, it just needs to be a lil better. Ultimate is a hard game, and a lot of players are seeing it now.

[@ElChicoBush]

Yeah. And I don't think Ultimate should be lower, it is still a loose game by itself. But Sm4sh is not a tight game at all.

[@CinemaSeven]

Oh boy 30 minutes of Max being the "Charlie conspiracy meme" come to life. Time to get comfortable.

[@jakobmann1497]

With how many bad match ups there are in games like mk9 they tend to be more tight in reality. For every loose Kabal there is a poor tight soul that has to fight him

[@dlbarnes]

MAN I LOVE IT!!! You brought memories back A3, A2, 3rd Strike, CVS 2 and a couple of others.

[@blujay1294]

melees place is crazy considering most of the basic tech in the game is literally efficient glitching LMFAO, wave dashing, all the different tech with characters, then adding in adjustable weight/physics. It's not exciting but Sakurai actively looks down on and has worked against that conpetitive scene and nature, and yet it still only escalates. Yoshi was thought to be kinda mid to low (compared to the spaceys, peach, and shiek. Not counting Iceys since they mostly wobbled), and yet some dude grinded out Yoshi for years, hours every day, and dusted a major. Was crazy

[@youngwho470]

Kinda wished he used the term "stiff" or "rigid" instead of tight because every time he says that word I can't help but think he's just saying the game is really good lol

[@PathFinder1490]

Watchmojo did it, Max reacted, now fighting game influencers/players will follow suit.

[@kalukagamingfellaguy]

Alright time to look in the comments in 3 days to find the Sirlin post

[@davidshuttleworth]

Thank you for all you do, brother! And Happy Easter to you and yours 🤝

[@beowulfmacbethson9675]

I love how Max treats Fight of Gods as if it's that one girl he slept with. The one that he doesn't care for because of her personality but looks fondly back on because the sex was fun.

[@sinteleon]

So... Would Chess be considered tight while Go be considered loose?

[@user-n9990]

Go - hella loose. Chess - kinda tight.

[@GrahamChapman]

Hmm, I do wonder where Max would put the Touhou Project fighting games on this chart? They all have quite a bit of mobility, of course, but I kinda feel like IaMP, SWR and Hisoutensoku are a bit more loose than HM, ULiL and AoCF... but that may be because they had less limitations as far as individual character mechanics go... Then again, HM had a definite looseness about it, what with the "mood" mechanics and all, and AoCF's tag team mechanics added quite a bit of potential, too...

[@arumea5418]

Damn man, got 3 different guilty gears, dbfz, and gbvs which are all arcsys, but somehow blazblue centralfiction doesn't get to be rated at all.

[@Se7enRemain]

I immediately said HNK and SSBMelee. Hokuto No Ken is *more* loose; but the entire act of moving around has been torn the fuck open in Melee. Not even accounting for the exploits we see at every single tier in the game. The low tiers in Melee are atrocious; but aside from Kirby and Zelda, these characters are not tight the way that Chun Li or Wolverine are in MvC2. Even Ness, Roy, and Mewtwo break the game

[@thenightstir7159]

Max gotta see Mewtwo side-b a character through the edge of a platform

[@tucco2097]

Max’s goal should be a tier list a week.

[@NinthSettler]

tier lists are youtube cheat codes no joke, i have two and they're my most viewed videos by far

[@KiarOdyssey]

Man. Max went on a tier list rant and I missed it

[@jaealxndr]

Where is like 3rd strike? Tight? I’m trying to understand the concept more lmaoo

[@charleouel9012]

11:35 ish well faster mean more option usually (Inquisitor in DNF dual got alot more option in the second beta compare to the previous one and I think it mainly just because she run faster and walk faster now and you can fell it you got more option you can do now you don't just thow the fire and can't do mixup out of it now you can run to the enemy and do things.) So yah I agreed movement spd give more option making it more "loose"

[@shadowmoon1657]

Not enough SNK fighters

[@Landmasters]

You know Fantasy Strike and Nidhogg are tight when DIVEKICK AND IT'S ONE BUTTON are a tier above lol

[@Gamingwithgleez]

I actually really enjoy Fantasy Strike.

[@hasdachatlogs]

Oh snap! Virtual On is on here!

[@Avrage_Weeb]

Man since the beginning of this video I was just sitting here like "He better put Dong Dong Never Die in, like, 'OMEGA FUCKING LOOSE; What were they thinking?!' tier"

[@TROPICADIA]

Thanks for always making such culturally informative videos!

[@bihansiceclone]

Chicken tenders was probably the best fighting game I’ve played in the 2000s

[@averageyoutubeenjoyer6781]

Tight doesn't mean bad, and loose doesn't mean good.

[@ImmaNarutimate]

I'll wait until Max find Narutimate Accel 2: Shuriken Cancel, Back-Jump Cancel and Jutsu Cancel 90% of the moves in the game at any time(startup, between hits, linking and after), so you can create your own mixups and strings in real time battle, while being aware that your opponent can escape with KnJ at any hit, so you have to adapt and buffer an option if your read is correct. Is hella loose.

[@Sapheiorus]

Well shit, now I need to see the VOD to get the take on Dong Dong...

[@nonahedrix]

AAAH NO YOU HAVE TO FINISH THE LIST, FINISH ALL THOSE GAMES

[@xXCigarXx]

You are awesome Max I really appreciate all of your videos. I wish you the best of luck dude!

[@mantis638]

Hear me out: Divekick is kinda tight. Yes, you only get two buttons to attack. However, you are given free range of how you use it. Do you fake an opening? Play it safe? This helped open the game up to be creative.

[@cpt.hebikurashota7545]

Thank you for this tier list, this really did help to define the terms much better. Big shout out for mentioning Hokuto No Ken and showing just how loose this game really was. Most VF games fall within the tight categories especially since the newer iterations all seems to have very specific answers for every possible situation and set up in the game. 2D GG games feel more loose to me Strive seems to limit your choices in order to NOT overwhelm the broader audience. Think you actually make a whole tier list just using the different SF games since they all varied so greatly from one iteration to another and from patch to patch.

[@kanadetachibana9218]

Melee definitely is more loose than that, even considering the cast. The movement options and mechanics are so unhinged and universal that it allows for incredible playmaking from basically any character minus like 3. But you did say you were pretty casual smash wise so from an outsider perspective the analysis makes sense.

[@doris3026]

coming back to this video just to hurt myself from times to times as a guilty gear fan

[@YUSSUFXVI]

As someone who just got into strive as my first GG it feels like the loosest 1v1 fighter I’ve ever played, and xrd looks even more loose from what I’ve seen, I feel like max kinda cherry picks and moves the goalposts in this video so many times, sometimes he talks about the optimal way to play the game and that it’s not loose enough (which would apply to almost all of the games in hella loose too) and other times he talks about his IDEAL way to play the game despite the optimal way being not as loose. I’ve been able to come up with mixups using gios(relatively limited) toolset and R.C that I haven’t managed to find online yet and that’s something considering the game is 3 years old.

[@YUSSUFXVI]

To have sfv on the same level as strive in looseness just seems silly to me but hey I have JUST gotten into it.

[@nintenx1235]

Melee goes next to marvel 2, ultimate goes next to tekken in between loose and hella loose. Tighter than melee but still super creative. I love fighting games, but I’m mostly a feel player. I don’t like spending half a day labbing combos, I like to try things out in ranked/online that feels right.

[@Greenomb]

Comparing Smash 4 and Ultimate is kinda weird cause the offense of Ultimate offers more freedom and the game is generally faster than 4 but they also removed a lot of player found tech like perfect pivots and made the mobility and “general control” of your character more restrictive if you think about things like sticky platforms, the short hop airial macro that making buffered full hop airials impossible, c-stick airials affecting your momentum, and the general gripes with the buffer system, to the point where some people say Smash 4 felt more “fluid” to play than Ultimate.

[@reesei3565]

fact

[@damsen978]

Hey! Why is the og KI only Tight? You even enjoyed the hell out of it in one of your videos when you played it online.

[@Wavedashnoir]

You definitely forgot about the combo cancels and the very very large roster in the chicken tenders 3v3 tournament setting

[@newmula5045]

I just said let me lay down early and here comes MAX WITH A FULL LENGTH EP 😭😂

[@Jagotron]

Its a shame max never tried melty blood. That game would probably scratch is loose itch considering it has 30 characters with 3 variations each and each variation has not only diffetent moves but system mechanics.

[@lonewolf9325]

Make a Tight and Loose Tier list for Sword-based Action games, even Action RPG...including Final Fantasy, Souls Games, and Devil May Cry

[@crash1108]

I'm glad he rated Nidhogg, somewhere in my heart when I saw it in the list I just knew it would be SFT

[@ZzigZaG00NIN]

I was watching fantasy strike videos recently I knew it was going to be on super tight it's a fun game but there really isn't too much to what the characters do

[@n1hondude]

SFV would be a bit more loose if there was more juggles and some RNG with a few more characters: Abigail's VS2 with different tires Cody's VT1: knife, combat knife, tanto VT2: pipe, crowbar, barbed wire steel baseball bat Menat's VT1 and 2 could have a chance of being a different colour and therefore an added property, ice, burn, stun, poison Rose's VS2, same as Menat, she IS her master after all

[@theesengovender1870]

The thumbnail had me thinking this was "fighting games are... Food pt.2"

[@mothuwah]

Fighting game bussy tier list

[@fabiankeck4492]

And where you rate Maximilan Dood`s Hair here? Loose? And super fucking loose when the wind takes it apart? 😂😂😁😁

[@myboy_]

Put melee at top, I'm biased but won't back down

[@gentleman3313]

Dude, this is a video we all need.

[@DANCERcow]

Try making a sexual tier list without telling me it's not a sexual tier list... Max:

[@Justice17]

I love street fighter 3 but there is no way it’s looser than any of the guilty gears lol guilty gear has so many more mechanics and 3x the mobility options as sf3 and a bigger cast which means the decisions ramp up even more. I’d put sf3 in loose and bump all the GGs up or leave GG in loose and sf3 is kinda loose

[@z-rossi3672]

For honor, one of the tightest fighting games to a fault

[@classicsagat]

VF imo may be the very definition of tightness lol

[@fernandozavaletabustos205]

Thanks for making this tier list!

[@robomen123]

Can you make a part II of this video when you explain a reason of putting some games into this list? Becues, I'm really interested to hear your opinion on SC6 and SC2 and why SC6 is still tight compare to 2. I kinda understand why, and it's probably because of the amount of stuns, but I might be completely wrong. Also, i'm really interested to hear about Vampire Savior.

[@dseus]

The fact that there's no garou mow in there hurts my feelings

[@haruhidaso]

I think Melee should go into hella loose because the game gives you so much option, and the only reason game feels tighter now is because it has been played and figured out for over 20 years! People knows the best options, but even still, top players like Zain and Mang0 would do some stuff that has never been seen before in tournament.

[@rafaelblackman9879]

Personally, I think Smash as a whole has been getting tighter and looser with each new game since Melee. For example, Brawl is super tight b/c of how slow and unbalanced it is. But then smash 4 is defined by its cheese which made it way looser than Brawl. Ultimate, however made things tight again by balancing and expanding the cast at the cost of mechanical depth.

[@paulakroy2635]

I would say melee problem is that some of the cast feels really loose (a lot of the top tier, young link) but others are extremely linear

[@scrubyd0053]

But the definition of loose, according to Max, is how much of the developers’ original vision is still prevalent in the game when played at its highest competitive level. Melee couldn’t be any more loose, it plays nothing like it was originally intended. Just think the last time you watched a tournament and where someone shined to reflect a projectile.

[@rafaelblackman9879]

@@scrubyd0053 This thought process applies to competitive smash as a whole, especially because of how Nintendo sees it.

[@haruhidaso]

@@rafaelblackman9879 imo Brawl, 4, and Ultimate are all about the same for different reasons. Brawl had no combo game and all neutral which makes is loose but didn’t have too many advance options except a few like DACAS, 4 had a very smooth movements but limited combo options, and Ultimate has the character diversity new movement options but at the same time each of those movement options seems limiting and tight.

[@Wiziliz]

Didn't talk about the important Guilty Gear but I'd say ACR is in Hella Loose

[@xtlm]

I was really hoping more 90's fighting games would be placed lol Like the original VS games and Darkstalkers Also, Soul Caliber! Any of them! Where would that go??

[@thelegalsystem]

"We don't need absolutely everything" Leave that to Ranking of Fighters

[@Wavedashnoir]

Melee is definitely mega loose

[@HMNNO]

Really weird to put 3s in the loose category but that's imo

[@bustahwoalf2858]

MAX TALKED ABOUT ARMS AND I WASNT THERE???

[@ninjarabbitx2-2515]

Aww... I was waiting to see what Max's thoughts were of DOA! :(

[@tnuhenaj3752]

One thing which I think needs consideration is how viable it is to play in lots of different ways. What I mean is that a game might have tons of different ways you can play and express and be really loose but none of it is viable in any remotely high level setting. In which case it’s all pointless. Sure you can do many things but you’ll lose unless you do the right things. Cause technically you can do what you want and play how you want in any game but it doesn’t mean you will succeed. Personally I think this consideration would change this list quite a bit and in general pretty much all the games would be lower down on the list in the more tight sense. There’s always going to be a meta in competitive games and that will be the most viable and successful way to do it. In that sense it’s extremely rare to have a very loose game. You can play kof without hopping or tekken without Korean backdashing but you won’t beat someone who is proficient at those things. Unless somehow you’re better at everything else. Melee is a good example. People mistakenly use loose gameplay as a synonym for emergent gameplay. Melee has the most emergent gameplay of all time. Literally every single technique is an unintended glitch and people are still discovering new techniques to this day. But if you want to win you have to play the right way. Unless you play really casually. But casual play is basically anything goes in most of these. Kof xv is more loose than 14 due to ex moves outside max mode and cheaper ex moves, new shatter strike people are experimenting with to varying success, nerfs to quick max. Idk where it would go but I think it’s fairly loose. At least as much as 13.

[@Rieman6000]

Wow there is so much to learn and take from this video

[@HazzardousEco]

18:55 Editor: No I don't Max : ( That edit was so fast, I had to reduce playback speed just to catch it lol

[@fioregrimaldi4120]

Okay so where would you guys put Blazblue, Under Night and Guilty for loose type games?! I'm such very curious on this tho I'm not a fighting game expert

[@dd120398]

Ultimate is kinda tight. Brawl gets no love but was still more loose than the later games.

[@athernandez666]

Only max could pull this off.

[@unagisauce]

Oh, man. Tier lists are tight!