What Computer Games get Wrong about Tank Combat - with a Veteran

[@jamesparkinson7328]

"I don't want to have to take 10 weeks of training just to play a game" Y'all have never played Dwarf Fortress

[@pnutz_2]

the goblin babbysnatcha parrying a mother's xbow swing and then planting the knife in her head while dropping the baby was one of the few things I really remember due to the wonders of the combat log. Subsequently followed up by the nightmare of making a hospital in that game

[@orgami100]

That sounds like a very realistic after being hit by 120mm.. usually end up in a Thai massage parlor..

[@Kissamiess]

Heh yeah. I once taught myself to play that game and then dropped it for some months. Then I didn't want to pick it up again because it would have been too much work to re-learn it all.

[@Sol_Invictus_]

Try Crusader Kings 2

[@Algebrodadio]

Or HOI4

[@HistoryGameV]

It was a pleasure and an honour to film you guys!

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

Hjalfnar is his nick name, and HGV is Hjalfnar's Channel.

[@HistoryGameV]

@@georgebizos944 There are two souls inside my body, one is a huge military history enthusiast and craves for realism, the other one loves absurd scifi stuff like Warhammer 40,000 & Star Wars and would fight to the death for the Emperor of Mankind...

[@johndowe7003]

@@HistoryGameV for the emperor!

[@Domokun-Dahu]

Killed by shot you never saw? That's been Arma for the last 10 years. Also don't forget the importance of Combined Arms

[@PointReflex]

That's true, despite the close to no optimization of the engine of Arma III you can still get some german/soviet missions/mods from the war shop that will force you to micro manage your crew (composed of real people)... and then get blown up by a shot you never saw.

[@1993Crag]

And with recent updates; Arma 3 tanks have become a hell of a lot better when it comes to the whole looking through a straw with internal views.

[@arthas640]

I tried playing Arma and a fewer similar really realistic FPS's and some of them drove me crazy. One of the standout examples i can think of was a game, I think it was Operation Flashpoint Dragon Rising, where my friends and I repeatedly killed eachother or got killed by the AI from long distances due to cheap AI or blind luck, my favorite example being the time i wiped most of a team out by blind firing a machine gun from behind some bushes and clipping a few of them for instant kills from about 300+ meters away. I get it's more realistic to be shot from a sniper in a bush 1500 meters away but it doesn't necessarily make for a good game.

[@blankmoment2]

well the Arma 3 is it. The game have basically what they said. well if you going to talk about computer game then remember to check out game that have military tag on it not playing a popular fps game and said that all computer game dont have this

[@KapitanPisoar1]

That's been Operation Flashpoint since 17 years ago...

[@MrGabol100]

You mention playing Red Orchestra 2, but you do not mention the tank combat in that game. In fact in the T-70 in game the gunner-commander has to look away from the scope to reload the gun leaving you vulnerable unless you are communicating properly with your driver. In this game it's easier to play as the single tank crewman as you're able to switch roles at any time, but can only perform the actions of your active roles. In this game you don't have a full view like in War Thunder or War of Tanks but rather you're limited to a first person view of each crewman with detailed interiors. I feel that you made a mistake mentioning Red Orchestra 2 but not its tank combat, addressing many of the points you made in this video.

[@arandomfawn5289]

Many people seem to be addressing anything that there is but RO2 which has a lot of stuff that they talked about that the other games lacked

[@matrin2]

@@officialaleksiz but...... He literally talks about post scriptum towards the end of the video. RO2's tank combat is certainly more realistic, but it does take some liberties and it never felt as good as RO1's tank combat

[@MrGabol100]

@@officialaleksiz Post Scriptum's tank combat is a copy paste of the Red Orchestra 1 tank combat with less-detailed vehicle interiors.

[@soldierorsomething]

Angling your armor was crucial in RO 1 if you wanted to survive but in ro 2 everything seems to penetrate everything

[@f4fphantomii468]

Do you mean World of Tanks -_-?

[@buingockhoa1998]

The timing of this video is incredible *cough* Gaijin *cough*

[@QuyenPham-wl9zy]

Sekrit dokument komrad )))))))

[@ethanpalmer5670]

Gaijin pls add German super sonic jets

[@brexxxit]

Ngọc Khoa Bùi maybe gajin could. Make. WT. Better? Germany suffers, Russia’s broken, America OP, British stabs, French autos, Japanese dead and Italy nerf

[@gurnard5703]

Serious?

[@Bandit_Sudo]

@@ethanpalmer5670 East German MiG-19 PT is coming out

[@KTA1sVidsandFacts]

Red Orchestra 2 and Post Scriptum probably have the most realistic tank gameplay out there. I love inviting people into my tank so we have a full tank crew. The problem is communication between us all. I'll be telling my driver to go forwards, and he turns right. My gunner targets someone else. However, when we're all in sync, it's a beautiful thing. Then we get killed by anti-tank grenade.

[@rizwandiawalludien4048]

That, or get ambushed by FriendlyNikolai manning a PaK.

[@aritakalo8011]

Steel Beasts. Then again that is an actual military training tool, that is available to be bought by private person.

[@smeb4086]

red orchestra 2 heroes of stalingrad: multicrew tank is quite good

[@yaboilongschlong]

When you have people who know what they’re doing

[@bigdawg2246]

Yeah i got the game just so me and my friends could do tank crew stuff

[@jojomarujo8704]

And playing as a tank hunting team with friends is plenty fun too

[@bigdawg2246]

@@jojomarujo8704 yeah i like to use the anti tank rifle to snipe when there are no tanks not for any reason it just fun to shoot it

[@jojomarujo8704]

Albino Earwig AT-rifles in the game is the most satisfying thing to hit other players with, although it's probably not the favorite thing for the teammates that happens to be around when you open up that thing hahaha.

[@endlesnights3817]

@4:18 You ever try using the T-70 in Red Orchestra 2? Because that's how it works with the commander jumping out of the sight to reload the gun. All of my hate, never operate one of those deathtraps. It fills me with glee every time I sneak up to one and blow it up with a satchel charge or magnetic grenade.

[@constantinexi6489]

EndlesNights damn I remember crewing one of those things with a friend, shit was confusing af and we ended up ramming into a PZ III lmao None of us could really see properly and when he stuck his head out of the hatch he came face to face with its gun barrel

[@Sceptre1]

Post Scriptum and Squad do a great job of having realistic crew communications

[@dovahgamer9689]

Never forget ArmA it came first

[@brexxxit]

Rune tank combat in these are amazing. Especially post scriptum. You have to rely on the commander to target tanks

[@Sceptre1]

@@brexxxit When I play with friends we have to all call out targets together.

[@rizwandiawalludien4048]

The sound effect, man... Especially when shells bounce... Bone-chilling.

[@StoneCoolds]

Rune yep PS or squad are in a total different league WT is just an arcade FPS to play casually when you are bored, like a cellphone game lol

[@Mattebubben]

One of my biggest gripes with games such as World of tanks and war thunder is how hard it is to kill tanks. Basically you either have to make then explode or play Whac-A-Mole killing each crew member. While in reality if a tank took a penetrating hit in the crew compartment the fragmentation / shockwave would generally make the crew combat ineffective and make them abandon the tank if it did not kill them outright. Crew would not just crawl over their dead friends to a different station and then continue as usual... Sure there are instances where tanks would take penetrating hits and someone in the crew would die and they would keep fighting for a short while but that was very uncommon and would usually only really happen in a last stand situation where the tank was immobilized and it was a case of fight or die.

[@Riceball01]

The thing with games like WT and WoT is that they're not mean to be tank simulators, but semi-arcade like tank games. If you're looking for a realistic tank simulator then you're looking at the wrong type of game. There are proper tank simulators out there, there was an M1 simulator years ago and right now I think there's one called Steel Beasts and that's the type of game you should look for if you're expecting realism.

[@dylanmilne6683]

Indeed, there are several tales of tanks not even being penetrated - as with tiger 131 - yet being abandoned and also tales of tanks being non fatally penetrated yet the crew deciding to bale out - as with the sad case of Jake Wardrop.

[@TheWarDogSquad]

Try playing steel fury kharkov, it's a decent simulator game same like Steel Beasts and Steel Armour

[@RAiNfORAiNbOW]

@@Riceball01 Yeah but its also nice if the game is nit a boring shit with bad graphics. War Thunder right now is the best simulator you can play by far. The compromises in realism are minor, dont break the immersion and make it way more fun

[@missfire9480]

@@RAiNfORAiNbOW Sim, no. Fun game; debatable.

[@baguettepower4776]

Pen values I'm looking at you War Thunder

[@USSAnimeNCC-]

One thing I hate about war thunder is that sometimes the person your shooting won't just die and it suck when you that guy who is a sitting target getting shot but won't die for some reason wtf is that

[@woodruff4241]

Tbh out of all arcadey tank games WT has the most historical

[@mememetal6631]

@@woodruff4241 WT went from historical(somewhat propaganda) pen to mathematical(somewhat real) pen

[@peterbarca8783]

Um. What is pen?

[@woodruff4241]

@@peterbarca8783 baby don't hurt me

[@GnorriTV]

"wouldn't be fun if your screen went black every time you fired a shot" In Red orchestra 2 if you get inside a T-70 your guy is a gunner, commander and loader, so you have to find the target again every time first person reload animation completes. Makes you really appreciate the other tanks in that game.

[@Cheezymuffin.]

Gnorri meanwhile the enemy panzer III has a loader and a commander, making it a much more effective tank.

[@OBtheamazing]

But the panzer three has shit frontal armor compared to the t70

[@tankolad]

@@Cheezymuffin. One of them is a small light tank for reconnaissance with a cannon for self defense and one is a medium tank meant to directly take part in combat. Guess which one is which.

[@eevee1023]

POST SCRIPTUM HELL YEAH!

[@TheRaven109]

Hell yeah!

[@VeraTR909]

\m/ SLAYER! \m/ oh wait...

[@zetos4440]

*red orchestra*

[@johno7118]

Great game

[@malak299]

PS is same gind medicore FPS game like squad . RO2 beat this both

[@amerigo88]

What computer games get wrong about tank combat. Answer - track tension.

[@jatzi1526]

God I fucking hate doing maintenance on tracks. I'm gonna be so happy when I get out and I dont have to break track ever again

[@swiftdanger2033]

And that it only takes 1 shell that penetrates to kill the tank

[@endlesnights3817]

The Stridsvagn 103 or "S-Tank" can be fully operated by a single person. We need more of those in games.

[@dge4560]

If thats a fact, the gunner/driver/commander must lack situational awerness like hell.

[@endlesnights3817]

For some context, it was a tank designed for purely defenses operations only, unlike most other MBTs. While in theory it could be operated only by a single person, you would have a crew of three persons in practice on the field. Both the command and driver/gunner have near identical controls with the command having the addition of a Hunterkiller system. The command would scan for targets while the driver gunner engaged. The mechanics of this tank just happens to mirrors that of video games more so than other tanks with the operation to be primarily controlled by an individual (even if in practice that wouldn't be so much the case). I also can't think of another single tank or SPG or tanklike vehicle that can be fully operated by a single person from a single seat.

[@XDestroyoxZx]

@@endlesnights3817 the S-tank is just fine on offense (hypothetically like a lot of cold war tanks). Strategically it is a defensive tank but on the tactical level it can turn and engage an enemy just as fast as a rotating turret.

[@TheSuspectOnFoot]

@@XDestroyoxZx Imagine a scenario of driving on a road surrounded by forest. While the tank is moving the turret can follow the road and fire immediately once a target comes around the corner. With an S-tank that's physically impossible so it's not very well adjusted for offense.

[@XDestroyoxZx]

@@TheSuspectOnFoot ok I'll give you that. The s-tank wouldn't be good for urban warfare. But in the defensive war it was designed to fight in it would be avoiding bottlenecks like that.

[@afs101]

excellent video with a great guest. more of these please!

[@elsamu9458]

If a game were extremely realistic no one would play it, just nowadays. I think that in the future, or just 10 years from now, there will be Virtual-Reality Masive-Multiplayer-Online videogames. Imagine a VR game with complete control of your character located on WW2 era. Graphics, sound, animations, historical accuracy, 100 vs 100 battles, the battlefield, the largeness... like real life, but fake. Just dreamin, think about that, it will be possible to make.

[@rickvrieling]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iaGWh3dnnJh1ac0 Exist, but not yet the best... or it`s the crew.

[@synomuumi]

On the other hand: that sounds good. On the other: that sounds like it would give me PTSD lol

[@elsamu9458]

@@rickvrieling I know it, I have seen some videos and it looks so fun to play with friends. I hope that in the future I will be able to play some VR games since I have no good PC neither a VR headset. Hopefully this games will get more attention as this new technology improves faster and faster and gets comercialized better.

[@seth1422]

Squad and Post Scriptum aren’t perfect but pretty good.

[@wargearinternational7679]

Sounds awesome, but also sounds like something which can easly be extremly mentally drainning.

[@ilyaklimov7960]

Thanks for another great video. As far as tank sims go I think Steel Beasts played online is as close a depiction of the modern armoured combat as you can get.

[@GuangkaZ]

Post Scriptum does it propa!

[@mensch1066]

LOL, confusing computer games with heavy metal . . . a very Austro-Prussian mistake by MHV!

[@elsamu9458]

6 days ago??? How? xD

[@zaxxxppe]

Samu-94 donator, he gets early content :)

[@elsamu9458]

@@zaxxxppe Ooh ok lol

[@Schmidty1]

@@elsamu9458 Patreon.

[@mensch1066]

@@elsamu9458 magic - and supporting MHV via Patreon/PayPsl/Subscribestar

[@StrangeDaysGaming]

You can drive a Elephant tank destroyer more than five inches without the transmission catching fire.

[@SpruceReduce8854]

In Red Orchestra 2, it's a server option to turn off the killfeed, or at least provide a delay between the kill and it showing up on the killfeed. I think you may be able to turn it off always for yourself, but I'd rather play it where everyone has that disadvantage rather than just myself.

[@rjtwins100]

You guys should play a tank crew in post scriptum

[@corporalhicks86]

Aussie’s checking in!!! 🇦🇺

[@66Rokers]

I've been to this museum, its very nice. Got a lot of nice looking tonks.

[@sevenproxies4255]

From a gameplay perspective, being a loader sounds kind of dull. Your entire gameplay experience will be "press F to load" :P

[@Schnittertm1]

Well, depending on the tank you could add a few mini games, like "Find the correct round the gunner and/or commander called out!", use quick time events to correctly load the round, have a mini game to step over spent shell casings on the floor (e.g. early T-34s) and so on and so forth. Even with modern tanks you could make it a bit more interactive. In the Leopard 2 you have to press the button to open the munitions bunker, you have to press a key to load the shell (or have a quick time event), a button to lock the breech, a button to call out that the round is loaded. Also, since on some tanks even the gunners get periscopes, you might have to use them to help find threats to the tank and call them out.

[@sevenproxies4255]

@@Schnittertm1 The problem is that quick time events are pretty much universally hated in video gaming and for good reason. And as to your other suggestions: the gameplay will just bottle down to doing the same key-combo over and over again. Probably not as thrilling as riding in a tank and loading the main gun in real life. So if they want to make a game to simulate real tank warfare, it would probably be better to simply stick to the commander acting as a "spotter", the gunner does the shooting with impaired vision and the driver does the driving but with impaired vision. So both driver and gunner have to communicate back and forth with the tank commander to get the most performance out of their tank.

[@dse763]

Don't know about modern tanks but in most WW2 tanks, coax mg is on loader side and he's in charge to man it. For a strange reason, even in tank sims, it's the gunner who man the coax.

[@Eli_G454]

Seven Proxies IRL the Loader is the 2nd in command in the vehicle. The loader (at least in the Canadian Army with the Leopard 2) interacts the most with the commander out of all the crew. He helps the commander with navigation, communication and situational awareness. In the event that the commander is knocked out the loader takes his position.

[@Kalev225]

You could have it dcs style with manual operation of the whole process down to every switch pressed and button flipped. Better loaders would then be prized. Also, allow for manual placement of ammo. Does a good loader place it in the safest position, or put it where it's easier to reach, but could get hit. There are a lot of ways to make the loader not dull.

[@shiverza9584]

3:13 That new game is Post Scriptum, and its a Milsim. So the game's main focus is on communication, tactics and realism. And on infantry there is a thump sound you hear when you hit someone.

[@tyronedlisle4412]

Post scriptum tank gameplay is so much fun! Definitely get that friction feel. Trying to communicate where to fire. So good.

[@tedarcher9120]

Ang german tanks are shit there! Because only commander has good periscope

[@rizwandiawalludien4048]

You asked the wrong person. Everyone knows Aussies drive their tank upside-down.

[@anid2731]

Fairly accurate. Another thing (obviously) not included is the share amount of maintenance you have to do for the vehicle. Also quick reactions to sudden system failures, troubleshooting them and going forward with backup systems. The vehicles on the games are rarely camouflaged with real trees etc. Few games allow you to lead a platoon sized tank group, or larger. Haven't seen any game that would allow you to give hand signals for other vehicles and infantry.

[@chasefoxen]

I went to the Panzermuseum in Munster last summer and it was awesome! I wish I had more time to view their entire collection but I definitely got a good look at the WW1 and 2 stuff. Certainly worth visiting if anyone is ever in the area.

[@pnzrldr]

Recently retired US Army Armor officer - have visited Panzermuseum Munster as well. Don't entirely disagree with some of your conclusions but would offer some alternative thoughts for consideration. Would love to discuss this topic at length with you guys. Let me know.

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

are you in Austria / Germany currently?

[@pnzrldr]

@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Negative. In the states, but employed in the combat vehicle industry. Good connections w/ the US Army Combat Vehicle Restoration Center at FT Benning, and back to Germany on an occasional basis. Auch, kann ich ein Bischen Deutsch reden und lesen. Out of practice though.

[@pnzrldr]

Website is at www.massxv.com

[@Kissamiess]

Red Orchestra's tank multi-crew has already been mentioned. There has also been a few other multi-crew games on other kind of, usually fantasy, vehicles. Not so much about realism, but you will get some of that friction element with them. My favorite was AirBuccaneers. I'm guessing they won't become really popular before VR becomes commonplace, especially VR you can emote through. Star Trek Bridge Commander could be an early example.

[@rc59191]

War Thunder would be even more amazing if they had a multi crew option.

[@1984Phalanx]

Red orchestra 1 did a pretty good job of it. You could take a tank by yourself but that meant you'd have to constantly switch between seats to operate it. You also had separate views whether you were looking with the hatches open or not, but hatches open meant getting shot.

[@octomusdong]

Post Scriptum changed that you have a Gunner, Driver, and a Commander when in a tank it’s really cool

[@CrniWuk]

I remember a handfull of games that at least tried to get closer to tank combat. Red Orchestra allowed to have 3 crew members, Darkest Hour improved on that aspect. There is also Arma and Post Scriptum. A few single player also used to be a bit more realistic, like WWII Battle Tanks: T-34 vs. Tiger. Of course, they are still 'games' and not perfect simulations. But more than your typical World of tanks type of game.

[@ScipioAfricanusI]

Bracketing is a shot short and long. When a salvo lands both short and long, the target is in between. The guns then fire for effect at the target directly.

[@pex_the_unalivedrunk6785]

Not to mention in real life tanks don't have hit points, dead crewmen can't be revived with kits, and ammo explosions are much more likely. I wish there were more true tank simulators out there for download. No 3rd person perspective(or at least option to turn it off) and if your crew is unbuttoned machine gun fire can kill them. Panzer Commander on Windows 95 for PC was like that back 23 years ago...it had nice interior views of the tank too(for it's time-remember how primitive computers were then, a 16mb graphics card and 256mb of ram was good back then). Good points about crew communication, bore sighting and range finding, nice video! Respect for the IDF from the U.S.!

[@highlanderknight]

I remember Panzer Commander.

[@sytricka3318]

@@highlanderknight Red Orchestra 2 or Post Scriptum might be games you would like

[@highlanderknight]

@@sytricka3318 Yeah, been playing Red Orchestra since Ostfront was released.

[@cnlbenmc]

Lemme guess; mobility kills are a Lot harder to deal with.

[@Phos9]

Yeah your crew can’t use their telekinesis to fix the tracks.

[@jatzi1526]

That shit is hard af to put back together, I cant imagine doing it in combat

[@misspurdy27288]

In my opinion the best way to do tank warfare in games is with three crew. Driver only gets his little viewport. He controls all movement functions and, if the tank has one, he can control the hull MG. Gunner only gets the gunsight. He runs the gun and coax. Commander gets a commander hatch view and depending on the tank he can turn out for better visibility. His job, other than being the eyes, is the radio, dorsal MG if there is one, and ordering the NPC loader once a shell is fired. Now it sounds like the commander has all the work, but his jobs aren’t exactly as in depth as the other two. He has alot of simple jobs whereas the driver and gunner each have one complicated role.

[@OfNaught]

What I would like to see is some implementation of crew bailing out in a more realistic game. For example a player would have three vehicles but only enough crew for two, meaning they would have to decide after getting penetrated whether to continue fighting and risk losing more crew, or bailing out to conserve crew and fill the rest of the vehicles. This would also take into consideration some degree of ergonomics, with hatch placement and size determining how fast the crew can escape their vehicle.

[@TannuWannu]

Men of War: Assault Squad 2. Obliterated crew members are replaceable with new ones, if that station is still intact. Crew members crawl in and out of authentically placed hatches to repair damaged components. Often it does come down to juggling barely-surviving crew between barely-surviving fighting vehicles.

[@Skilly_J]

I think it's really interesting that he mentions the lack of a "crew component" in most games with regards to tank combat. It's something that I hope will be very interesting with the new IL2 Tank Battles game, with a full crew of friends on a battlefield. ARMA has been really good about combined arms gameplay and armored tactics as well, though that game I consider a bit less accessible than most.

[@publiusscipio5697]

Red orchestra 2 still has my favorite tank gameplay.

[@anonymousontheinternet1309]

How nice of Clive Owen to participate in this interview

[@RipperYou]

Play Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45 plus its mods to experience tank combat with commander, gunner, driver, loader, radioman all crewed by players. Old game now but great experience

[@djsatane]

if you play old darkest hour ro1 mod, and you have like 3 players inside a tank, communicating between driver, commander and machine gunner as to what they see and what to do is actually good example of how hard it can be

[@kastro4460]

Just wait till 1C studios (creators of IL-2 Sturmovik games) finishes Tank Crew: Clash at Prokhorovka

[@artemisgaming1009]

another think for what games get wrong, is when your tracks are damaged or destroyed and you wait some sec to repair, but in the real world takes hours or the tank is stucked.

[@alexandershorse9021]

Excellent interview. The main thing computer games get wrong is you can't reload the save if you make a mistake. There is no respawn, rounds or turns. War is very chaotic and frightening. It is not a game.

[@OBtheamazing]

His first point about the crew is (my non military experience) pretty accurate represented in Red Orchestra 2. When you want your tank to move forward, press W and the tank commander says "driver forward" when you let go of W he says "Driver Stop", "Driver right" etc. You can also tell the gunner to pan left or right and you have to tell them when to stop

[@firefox5926]

3:28 "gunner target (tank/infantery/stucture) right/left/forward/back (bearing xxx / xx oclock / hard/right/left) 1 round "

[@SparkyBob357]

A friend of mine who was an m60 tank commander made similar comments about tanks in games.

[@whirving]

I love how polite and calm Bernard is, and the fact that he plays that ass kicking music in the end so we that he is also intense. I like intense people.

[@Ebergerud]

For my books I've interviewed a couple of hundred combat veterans from three wars. I always asked about the combat experience. The factor scads of vets emphasized as being beyond the imagination of most of the world's population that don't see combat is noise and the visceral effect of weaponry. Many weapons make tremendous amounts of noise and you feel it as well as hear it - and it can deafen for a time. (One sailor on the North Carolina had battlestations on a 20mm flak guns right next to a 5"38 secondary gun - he said the "crack" from the 5" gun made those around it punch drunk.) Artillery rounds that land nearby generate shock waves - and ground shake - that can be felt hundreds of feet away - and they're hot. The shock wave is like a very hot wind from a distance. Shrapnel is white hot. And when small arms rounds go past you, you hear them "whistle" and crack - one gent said it reminded him of breaking a pencil in half. Some like the smell of gunpowder - and there's a lot of that. Throw in some fear and adrenaline - shake on a heavy dose of fatigue, and you come up with an unforgettable experience with precious few equivalents in the civilian world. Interesting to read about - but I'll pass on the real thing.

[@zeljkothegreekserb]

Running around everywhere like a 12 year old in counter strike. With the exception of Arma, and not even inside Arma all the time, this is a thing pretty much every "realistic" game has players doing, even games like Squad and Project reality, let alone casual ones like BF, COD,etc.

[@caesar7786]

I mean, because it was meant to be fun & exciting, it doesn't and has never claimed to be a 100% accurate representation of real combat

[@philstaples8122]

10 weeks? In the British army it usually took around a year to become a fully qualified RAC crewman of a tank, that means you can drive, shoot and load the gun as well as use the radios up to phase 2 signals level. If you add on basic and trade training prior to joining your regiment you could say between 1 1/2 to 2 years in total depending on course availability at your regiment and range periods. If you did every course back to back it would of course be a lot faster but you need practical and extensive experience of applying the role to be any good at it then you can do the next course.

[@deezboyeed6764]

I assume they mean war time training, since the games take place in war your characters would be given much shorter training courses.

[@BobSmith-dk8nw]

Yeah. I can imagine that you would want to go and serve in a crew position you just took the course for to embed that training in your mind and your muscle memory - otherwise - you'd just forget it. .

[@vonJosephu]

Strange, they're both Australians, but have totally different accents

[@PereMersenne]

I get it. Austria - Australia, hehe. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pneqknynd6eJaZI

[@ghostdiv7sion194]

Nice one. When i went to Austria, in souvenir shops there were t-shirts saying, "There are no kanguroos here".

[@JohnnyMaczeta]

Yea the vet's english is really good.

[@fourshore502]

I used to play a mod for battlefield 2 called project reality which I think came fairly close. Two things different from most games were 1. a lot of walking and waiting 2. very often not actually seeing the enemy, or seeing them at a far distance, which of course got very frustrating at times when you had walked and walked and walked and waited and then you suddenly were killed by one shot and didnt even see the shooter.

[@anonviewerciv]

BF3 and BF4 have at least two crew members per tank, though one of them only mans the machine gun while the driver is also the gunner. Presumably there's an autoloader. There's also a commander-ish position through the CITV Station. Apparently there are some VR tank crew simulators in development like Steel Heroes.

[@andrewrutherford78]

I think I served with him on an exercise in 2006 called Talisman Sabre,where he was acting as an infantry commander. He thought it would be good to get some grunt experience. Luckily his cavalry knowledge came in handy as we took on enemy cavalry units. We gave more than we got!!! Best exercise ever, nice guy to.

[@kielbasathief9576]

have you ever played Red Orchestra 2? theres a few tank battles. and when you want to do anything the officer will shout out to the crew to do what he said. so if i want to turn right the officer would say turn right, driver would say yes sir. it got super annoying

[@Lukos0036]

I think you could get some of that crew friction and reaction time in a game by limiting your players view to commanders hatch head out, gunners site which is also the view you need to slew the turret, and audio ques from other players reporting on opposing positions. Also getting rid of capture points and going more on a territory held model. And no respawns.

[@Psiberzerker]

I understand this, but what strikes me is there's no People. Okay, they evacuated the city, but there's no Infantry. You can play an APC, like one of the BMP series, but they want to keep the rating low. So, the world is populated by Tanks, and the only people are basically components of the vehicle. If you lose your Gunner, or your Site, you can't fire. However, a lot of real combat has always been the Infantry. They're actually a huge threat to Tanks in cities, because buildings are designed for people to walk through, while a tank track can get caught on a 4" curb. They just can't have people reduced to red splats on the screen, that would raise the rating to M for Mature. It just strikes me how empty the world is, and how much is changed without Infantry. For example, all Artillery is Anti-tank, because there's no Bunkers for SPAGs to Assault.

[@rc59191]

If you want infantry play Heroes and General's lol.

[@Makrangoncias]

Guns of Icarus provides a pretty similar experience. You coming on top or bottom entirely depends on the cooperation of the crew and communication.

[@cliftons6811]

great video! Could you do a video on how casualties are taken in various circumstances, perhaps for modern, or at least ww2 combat? when do units typically fall back, how many casualties are taken in risky maneuvers, can you get a force out of unequal engagements, etc. Both operationally and tactically.

[@firefox5926]

5:24 and thats why in all those after action reports there were tigers every where in face... it was usually the same bloody ones and every time some one came across it the fire a round into it to be sure lol

[@dylanmilne6683]

Really nice thumbnail btw!

[@firefox5926]

7:02 you just have to "walk" the shots in... or if you're in in with other tanks all pick a range and fire one after another or you range with the mg .. (assuming before hand you have worked out the range of the mg fall of shot ave the varying gun elevations )

[@reloads223]

GREAT VIDEO !!!

[@auditedpatriot6376]

One of Guderian's criticisms of Hitler was his decision to abandon experienced tank crews in North Africa and later giving the best new tanks to raw recruits while crews who had years of experience were left with inferior, obsolete equipment. Over time a good team learns to act on the tone of their leader's voice or even just a look in the eye. But games are supposed to be fun, and that level of detail and intensity would probably send a lot of teen gaming "veterans" home with a bad case of PTSD.

[@knutdergroe9757]

Failure to learn, Is death in combat. Trying learn and live, or live with your mistakes is PTSD. Computer games, can not give that. Because you don't die(or lose friends by death), playing a computer game. It would make my world better if it could(computer games) give PTSD. Forcing more to at least deal with PTSD. Maybe bring more understanding with it. And that is a very, very sad statement....... When only 1% of a population serves. And maybe 5% that serves see combat during current combat operations. Yet 15%(?) of a population has played a combat type computer game. Sorry for the long winded comment. It is painful losing friends/family from PTSD all to often (24 U.S. Veterans a day).

[@auditedpatriot6376]

@@knutdergroe9757 You are probably over-thinking this just a bit. That said, PTSD can be caused by many types of highly stressful events, not just actual combat. I have not researched statistics on violent/intense computer games and their effect on depression and anxiety in adolescents, but I hypothesize that it might be severe in extreme cases. For the most part, however, consider my statement on the subject as satiric hyperbole and take more time to relax, you seem just a little over stressed..

[@smeminem1258]

Another thing that i think tank games quite capture is the effects of a shell even when it doesn't penetrate, because in most games it's like -dink- nothing felt even tho a 6 to 10 kg steel(or better yet packed with high explosive) just bit your tank at a velocity of like 900m per second or higher

[@alexanderbenkendorf688]

Steel Fury: Kharkov 42 is a tank sim, where most of it is simulated. I remember hitting a target and not knowing if i killed it, or even penetrated it or merely disabled it.

[@basilbackman2829]

Post Scriptum FTW!

[@gnayiefnus1327]

Go away!

[@ethanpalmer5670]

Go Avay!

[@18IMAMGODINA]

Isn't bore sighting just a way to generally find where the weapon shoots . And a way you properly adjust the sight is by seeing where impact is and moving the sight directly on the impact so that you can zero in?

[@Yui_187]

Redorchestra2 shows tank combat reallywell

[@krystian0128]

If you really want an experience they're talking about, the one about communication between crew members I'd recommend you the games Red Orchestra: Ostfront and Red Orchestra 2, which in my opinion are the best in tank realism.

[@TheIfifi]

Arma my dear! Arma is the best

[@mavrik104]

God I hate ArmA some times.... 7-8 Km ranged tank battles.... But ArmA is more for infantry than vehicals

[@TheIfifi]

@@mavrik104 I like to consider it company level engagements. Red Orchestra I consider Platoon level, regardless RO2 is not a simulation, Arma is. It's in fact the only real simulation on the market. While I primarily play as Infantry, I think it largely depends on the player. The Infantry perspective is probably more flushed out than anything but compared to other games, including red orchestra, Arma has flushed out aerial and armoured warfare way more than anyone else.

[@dge4560]

Also post scriptum. Kinda like red orchestra v 3.0

[@TheIfifi]

@@dge4560 Post scriptum is not a simulation as much as it is a realistic shooter. Thought I must admit it is a great one.

[@dragancrnogorac3851]

Press 5 twice to repair tracks. And driving wheel was gone and repaired in instant. Thing has to repaired in workshop and they have to remove; turret, engine, transmission, shaft then weld mounting point on chassis the assembly all that together... 2 days of heavy work

[@cannonfodder4376]

Friction between the crew in a ground vehicle and speaking of Post Scriptum then we have TBLF in Post Scriptum. They were a washing machine with a brick thrown in it. And I love them for it.

[@yourfavoriteneigborhoodkam7985]

Everyone's talking about RO2 or Post Scriptum, but no one realizes Il-2 Tank Crew exists lol

[@thomasbaagaard]

I think the old "WWII online" or Battleground Europe MMO did this pretty well.

[@brianwyters2150]

In War Thunder, simulator battles do force you to look through periscopes, vision slits, etc. However, the total control issue does still exist.

[@dylanmilne6683]

Yeah but then there are no real differences between optics or visibility between tanks are there?

[@brianwyters2150]

@@dylanmilne6683 Fair enough.

[@tinytinkertank7425]

Ehm no. You don't have the third person camera but you have a camera on top of the tank like an invisible and invincible commander standing on the tank. And binoculars would also be risky in real life. Here's a recent clip from me which also shows all three camera views: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hHSpZmawqLV1r80 (I turned off grass in the options which should not be possible at all, that game has way to many options to turn stuff off or volumes down). There is an option for some kind of driver view which only gave you a small rectangle to look through similar to Post Scriptum but why would anyone use that? Would be nice if binoculars or the "standing commander view" would actually have a killable crew member be partially outside the tank and be vulnerable to enemy fire.

[@najkraemer3117]

@@dylanmilne6683 yes there is, some of the tanks cant even zoom in that much. but then you get the abrams or leo2 that can aim in ALOT more.

[@dylanmilne6683]

different zoom is a weak amount of variation for all of the nuances between sights. One of the most notable factors is scope brightness which has no modelling in game.

[@synomuumi]

Love the thumbnail!

[@YukitoOnline]

The game *"POST SCRIPTUM"* Makes you experience the same thing as the guy describes.. Multiple players in one tank, working together to freaking operate the whole thing..

[@MissKay1994]

There's a massive learning curve to play games like War Thunder or World of Tanks. As a WT player the lack of situational awareness people have at times is fairly large. I.E. flanking and destroying a French B1 with an M5A1 with the B1 never noticing the M5A1 running it down from behind

[@AsthmaQueen]

Something I always liked about how they did this requiring a crew member for every spot in Project Reality (old bf2 mod) (same guys who made Squad and I believe worked on Post Scriptum) It really is a different thing if we could just have both, the damage models and number of tanks, and the combined arms war fare of War thunder and infantry of like Post Scriptum, and these mechanics would be an amazing game, in an IL2 sized theme. I know there was game bit like this long ago called World War Europe or something like that

[@jimwallstrum371]

I have seen many videos of visits to different tank museums, but I've never seen anyone tour the Technik Museum in Sinsheim, Germany. They have a fairly large collection of WWll German tanks and a U-Boat plus a multitude of aircraft. I really would like to see a tour of this museum.

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

I have it on my list and established contact in 2017 last year, but it didn't fit into my schedule and of course going there is not cheap.

[@Kottery]

The multi-crew component is something that admittedly wouldn't work well in a game like War Thunder, but in games like the mentioned Post Scriptum and Squad it allows for an incredible experience.

[@thetrippedup9322]

They get a lot right. Like when literally any hostile appears and I break down crying.

[@greenarcangel]

I think you should play Red Orchestra 2, the best tank cobat simulator ever

[@lyn9264]

A game that has alot of that crew interaction are like, Post Scriptum or Red Orchestra 2.

[@tierfuehrer2]

I thought dying, burning to death, dying without knowing, getting hosed by an MG while bailing out or exploding was what games get wrong.

[@sheboyganshovel5920]

A million years ago I worked in a store that sold computer games, and one of the most interesting-sounding games that nobody bought was an attack helicopter sim that was too realistic. You had players crashing because they couldn't remember which key command extended the antenna and so on.

[@Rangeleyj]

Woohoo Post Scriptum the game I like mentioned on a youtube channel I like!

[@volatilesky]

A common and simple "tactic" I use is simply to turn and rotate at the same time to be able to track and shoot a fast tank trying to circle me - I quickly realized this would be damn near impossible or take ridiculous coordination and practise to actually pull off. What bothers me in wot is the highlighting of hostiles. It takes what would be a near impossible shot to something that's just "a little tricky" as you wait for them to drive up into a bush behind a ridge, get highlighted, and you click.

[@Trollsty]

I think squad gets it the closest right now. Four people in the abrams, all of whom have to communicate effectively to use the tank. Driver, gunner, commander, and a loader using a CROWS .50 cal. For the teamwork stuff that seems to get it the closest from what I’ve seen.

[@Sandman253]

In the game Joint Operations Typhoon Rising\joint operatrions it requires a minium of two players to operate the tank

[@dixievfd55]

Combat helicopter flight simulators also suffer from the need for the player to control everything. Other than the Ka-50, attack helicopters have a pilot and a gunner who must communicate.

[@ArcticTemper]

Liked for pronouncing Lieutenant properly.

[@danielkelly1335]

ArcticTemper there are two ways to pronounce it but yeah his is right

[@DamianMaisano]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/i16YmnxnpbmbhJY A good video by an excellent (and British) channel about how to pronounce Lieutenant

[@peteralderson1483]

ArcticTemper yes that’s one of my gripes as well, especially British people saying it wrong because they have only heard Americans saying it . It’s great to hear Canadians saying it correctly 👍

[@emintey]

If he's a leftenant, what is a rightenant?

[@MrPonchovie]

so like game dev's should make their tanks more like a multiplayer experience, 1 player per crew member. Thanks for the inspiration!

[@firefox5926]

8:09 i mean the big problem with it is... well unless you get lucky on the first round .. the guys on the other end will have gone to ground and thus you have lost the best opportunity to murder as many of them quickly ..