Divine Hiddenness: Mike Winger's Desperate Dance Around God's Disappearance

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Welcome, All. One more winger video. I had to. Hopefully, you'll see why.

[@kenthovindscpa9466]

Mike Rightwinger is living proof that childhood indoctrination makes smart people believe stupid shit Also, please keep streaming about him😇

[@mollizi2131]

A lot of "mights" in his excuses for a god! LLOL

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@kenthovindscpa9466 you're thinking like Kent Hovind! LOL 😆

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Dude : your strawman is sad : why would God not want you to see him as doing so that would destroy you. 2 Timothy 6: 16. Has God not already showed up to people who wrote the Bible as the visible YHWH ( pre- incarnate Jesus) in the Old Testament and Jesus in the New Testament. Your confused if you think God has to jump when you say God needs to jump for me.

[@kenthovindscpa9466]

@david janbaz the ancient Greek word for Yahweh is Mahomes

[@crankyeldergod709]

To me, Winger's response depicts an abusive relationship. No matter what happens, or how the "relationship with god" has gone wrong, it's always the fallible human's fault.. Not only can a perfect god not be blamed for anything, but the very act of blaming him is yet another sin. It's like locking a child in a room, then blaming the lack of affection on the child for not trying hard enough to break out of the room.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

yes! its like that times google! its just insanely abusive.

[@MasterSpade]

Exactly. Belief in gods/religion boils down to = Battered Wife Syndrome.

[@user-oh5gz4ue6r]

"to me" ok

[@sakarivedenpaa4471]

It is absurd to say that God as a perfect being is somehow unjustified in His actions. God is necessarily faultless and man is not.

[@crankyeldergod709]

@@sakarivedenpaa4471 The attribution of god as "necessarily faultless" is probably the truest, and most vile, demonstrations of victim-blaming I have ever seen. This method of emotional abuse is a hallmark tactic of every abusive relationship, ever. It is abuse, it is manipulation, and religions and gods do not get a special pleading exemption on being called out for it. The realization that this form of manipulation and abuse is the heart of many religious doctrines is a big factor in driving people away from religion. At this point, any intellectual discourse has been pre-empted; there is no rational debate or philosophical argument. Anything that can be inferred to contain a criticism of god can be dismissed without consideration, as god is definitionally "faultless". God is an incomprehensible being, yet it is my fault as a mortal that I cannot comprehend him.

[@Mr.PeabodyTheSkeptic]

I don't search for a god. I search for truth. So far, there is no evidence for the truth of any gods.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

perfectly said.

[@kevinx7015]

So what evidence is there that shows it’s true that there is no God who withholds evidence of their divinity on purpose in order for us to be able to rely on faith?

[@FakingANerve]

​@@kevinx7015 If it wants to stay hidden, why should we bother to look?

[@kevinx7015]

@@FakingANerve Why should you bother to look if God is hidden? If you are not interested in finding out if there is such a thing as eternal happiness by experiencing it by brining God into your life and comparing that to what your life was like before having God in your life, then there is no reason to seek that hidden God. Do you have no interest in finding out if there is such a thing as eternal happiness?

[@FakingANerve]

@@kevinx7015 If there is eternal happiness bestowed upon us by an all-loving god, to put it bluntly, he wouldn't be such a dick to hide himself. As is such, I go on living my life without threat of eternal torture but instead trying to improve the lives of others, not because I have an eternal carrot dangled in front of me, but because it is the proper thing to do in society.

[@TrogdorJr]

Mike Winger is so interesting, he tries so hard to come across and kind and caring in his tone and demeanor while saying some of the more horrific and terrible things. His mental gymnastic abilities are gold medal level.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Indeed. I found myself almost wanting to defend him or take him more serious. Some kind of charisma. But the words dont lie

[@juderenard8273]

Well stated! Ty

[@epcarter6]

He’s gaslighting people in a very patronizing tone

[@TheMilitantMazdakite]

What horrible things do you speak of?

[@TaeyxBlack]

it’s his schtick. i noticed it in his debate with matt dillahunty. he smiles and says things in a generally pleasant way to try to make his opponent seem mean and obstinate by comparison. meanwhile, what he’s saying is, at its core, just more of the same. he finds different, friendlier ways of wording it, but “divine hiddenness isn’t a problem because non-resistant non-believers don’t exist, and if you say you do, then you’re lying to me or to yourself” is the same thing everyone else says, and it’s an ad hoc coping mechanism for the glaring flaws in their ideology.

[@deepashtray5605]

Winger's not trying to explain God's propensity for hide and seek, he's excusing it.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ahh well said.

[@BluStarGalaxy]

I had health issues that lasted for years. I was in pain at night lying in bed and asking god for anything to help. Complete silence. I would have gotten the same amount of help or acknowledgement if I had prayed to a rock. I was convinced to go be anointed with oil by my pastor and when it didn't work I was told that if I had believed that it would have worked it would have fixed me. Blame the victim mentality is strong in the cult. It was completely toxic.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

oh man, that is so disgusting, BUT i am not surprised. I cover this quite a bit in my very first video which is all about prayer. its just awful! Hope your doing better now!

[@chamicels]

Ask god to help me with my schizophrenia. Nothing. The elders in the church said I had sin in my life. so there is that. I finally went to the doctor and the symptoms disappeared.

[@BluStarGalaxy]

@@MindShift-Brandon Still working on it. I am doing research based on science instead of faith. My deconversion began after I prayed over and over every day for like 5 years for God's guidance. When all I got was silence I questioned if there even was a god because the Bible says things about god hearing prayers and helping those that trust in him and ask for help. This willingness to question resulted in everything coming undone. When I looked at the apologetics of theologians and pastors their rationalizations turned me away more than bringing me back. Thanks for the video and response!

[@BluStarGalaxy]

@@chamicels Glad you got help from your doctor. I was told to go to my pastor and be anointed with oil to heal my health issues. When I resisted, because it is faith healing crap, I was told that I didn't want to get better and that I was prideful. I gave in and was anointed with oil. Didn't work. I was then blamed saying that if I would have believed that it had worked, I would have been healed.

[@chamicels]

@@BluStarGalaxy I am sorry you had to go through that.

[@Wertbag99]

Divine hiddenness was the nail in the coffin for me (started with being told about a literal global flood, went through being unable to reconcile the hippy NT god with the brutal OT god, finding out about the lack of unity in Christianity to the point of centuries of bloody warfare and then when I prayed for any kind of sign, I got nothing and realized I was talking to myself). Reading the OT about how God wasn't shy to appear constantly, as a burning bush, flaming pillar, old man, voice from the sky or sending angelic messengers. He granted his favorites magical powers, including giving Elijah the ability to do miracles on demand for the purpose of proving God exists... and yet we see nothing of the sort outside of those stories. This rubbish about us somehow blocking God, just makes me wonder if they actually think He is all-powerful. If He was then there is nothing, I could do to stop Him from getting what He wants. Paul wasn't seeking and yet was convinced, so apparently that isn't even a requirement. If He wants everyone to know Him, and wants a personal relationship with everyone, then He would have it. He doesn't, so either He can't or won't, either way conflicts with what is being claimed.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

100% great add on. There is just so much against him. I have no idea how someone like Mike who has been exposed to all of this can still hold on at all.

[@Willie_Wahzoo]

@@MindShift-Brandon "I don't see how Mike who has been exposed to all of this can still hold on at all." That's just it. It's like virtue-signaling, "I'll never give up the faith!" The idea of holding on is arousing to Christians. It makes them feel heroic and brave, just like when that chick at the abortion rally acts like not killing babies is somehow killing lots of women when we all know it's not.

[@winifredsmith4421]

​@@MindShift-BrandonYou

[@MindShift-Brandon]

?

[@sniperwolf50]

Adding to your examples: Moses was indifferent to or ignorant of god until the moment he showed himself in a burning bush. Jonas was actively trying to hide from god's presence and still he had god's will forced upon him. At the time Jesus/god appeared to Paul, he was persecuting Jesus' followers, which is not the type of seeking that Mike is talking about

[@robertmoore2049]

It makes me want to say, “Stop hiding behind your creation and reveal yourself if you want more people to believe in you.”

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yup! shouldnt be this hard!

[@robertmoore2049]

@@MindShift-Brandon I’m glad I found your channel!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thanks Robert, Glad to have you here!

[@Cuffsmaster]

I agree - well said

[@laurenpatricia411]

So, you're blind? Look around, stop being so arrogant. God exists

[@loriw2661]

Don’t forget……god only gets credit for the GOOD stuff. Everything else is OUR fault. When the imaginary man in your head has THAT kind of advantage, it’s a win-win. I’m stealing some of your points btw. Another excellent video!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Please do! And thank you!

[@lezbyanke777]

their god sounds like a narcissist father

[@mistyhaney5565]

Responding to Winger is appreciated as long as you can stomach it. I've watched with dismay the growth of his channel. His presentation sounds calm and measured, while becoming increasingly toxic in its portrayal of anyone questioning any aspect of his concept of Christianity. He also has no problem claiming knowledge regarding forms of Christianity that aren't his.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

You are right about that. It may simply not be worth the blood boiling that goes on from watching. Thank you for watching!

[@Cuffsmaster]

"toxic.... of anyone questing any aspect of his concept of Christianity" Seems to be a common theme of the faith. If it was not then there would only be one type of Church in the world. Many believe that You not only have to be a christian but you have to be in the right Christian sub Cult to get to heaven.

[@Amatt0]

Stomaching him is indeed challenging, I could only manage 10 minutes before his nonsense made me nauseous

[@raysalmon6566]

​​@@CuffsmasterJesus did not teach such a thing

[@Cuffsmaster]

@@raysalmon6566 "Jesus did not teach such a thing" Well none of the supernatural events connected to Jesus can be proven. Be it a virgin birth. jumping out of the grave. raising the dead. the earth standing still, walking on water or turning water into wine, having lunch with the devil or speaking multi-languages at once. They are fairtalies. I am sure there was some guy named Jesus or something that the bible myths were made about but that does not prove the religious aspects are real. I. like Thomas Jefferson, believe red letter words of the bible are better than most. But I don't really believe he was the son of some god or is now part of some imaginary triad of gods but not really more than one. SO it matters little to me what he taught or what you claim he taught as he was not a god anyway. But you can be the very first Christian to actually offer real proof if you can find it for real. Well Jesus didn't teach anything about what I talking about in the prior post because he was not a god and didn't see the future therefore didn't know there would be a problem,. He also didn't talk to people about common medical practices and medicines or science, or any damn thing that would show he had some real vast knowledge or anything important or real.

[@akosorosz7453]

"Why does god reveal himself to some people, but not others" Exactly

[@tomtemple69]

His sovereign choice, He has mercy on whom He has mercy, He hardens whom He hardens you should read Romans 9

[@akosorosz7453]

@@tomtemple69 you should use your brain. If a god is just, they should act just. And by not revealing to some people, god is putting people at a disadvantage to believe in him. Where is justice in that?

[@tomtemple69]

@@akosorosz7453 He does reveal Himself to all people, Romans 1:18-32

[@akosorosz7453]

@@tomtemple69 quoting a bible won't be enough

[@tomtemple69]

@@akosorosz7453 it's literally God's words... that's the reasoning He gives... God does reveal Himself and leaves none without excuse do with that what you will 🤷🤷 you have the privilege of hearing the gospel of Christ so you have knowledge of the truth, there are some who perish without that, count yourself lucky now you must believe or face condemnation repent and live disobey and be condemned

[@billguthrie2218]

I rejected Christianity as false over 30 years ago after believing my entire life and even studying for the ministry.. Even though I left Christianity 31 years ago, I'm sincerely open to a god being real if he would simply reveal himself to me in a way that is convincing. Surely he would know how to do that. And he would know I'm sincere. . I seek truth. If god is true, I'm open. 64 years and all I have seen is people sincerely believing on bad evidence, emotion, and hearsay. , myself included until I was33. Never anything real, substantial, or substantive. Just emotions.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I love and share this attitude and approach.

[@Disappointed739]

People "creating imaginary problems with imaginary solutions", according to Dan Barker.

[@billguthrie2218]

@@Disappointed739 Didn't he also say something like ...."would you be grateful to the man who gave you a bandaide to cover the wound he made by cutting you with a knife?"

[@Jake-zc3fk]

Great job again Brandon! Don’t let these guys off the hook, they deserve the scrutiny that you and others give these people. The insanity of religion needs to be put in it’s proper place, the dust bin of history!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Always so encouraging, man. Thank you!

[@JayBandersnatch]

Matthew 7:9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! Many sincere atheists are asking for evidence that will convince them of God's existence, they are asking for bread, yet the Christians who say that god wants you to have faith instead of evidence are essentially saying that the stones god is giving you is sufficient instead of the bread you were asking for, directly contradicting the bible.

[@seraphonica]

this argument of Mike's has big "how dare you bring a knife to a knife fight?" energy. imagine trying to tell Mike that he's not allowed to talk about HIS personal beliefs and experiences

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Exactly

[@Sarappreciates]

Everything about the videos on this channel tells me that you were a Christian through and through, even down to the music you chose and how it's used. There's no doubt in my mind that you spent a great deal of your lifetime 100% "in the faith." This deconstruction looks to me like an honest search for truth and basic understanding that can't be found in the supernatural. Deconstruction can be a painful process. It's almost never done by choice if you stop to really listen.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha! don't hate me for the music, just love me some intro and outro music. I hope it doesnt stink of emotional priming worship music. but thank you for what you said. i always love how Dan Barker put it. If I wasn't a "real" christian, no one was.

[@Sarappreciates]

@@MindShift-Brandon As a child, I was raised Catholic. I also had undiagnosed ADHD, so prayers to Saint Anthony was, like, a daily thing for me. He's the patron saint of lost people and objects, so you pray to St Anthony if you can't find your keys, right? I believed that so much with the faith of a child, you know? Just totally absolute, no questions asked. 100% BELIEF! When my mother converted to Evangelism, my heart broke when she said St. Anthony was really a servant of Satan, and we'd been praying to "pagan demons" all along... If we could be wrong about that, we could be wrong about anything!! That sent me spiraling. If anything like that happened to you, just punctured your faith like a balloon, I have a very deep compassion for that moment in people's lives. It's scary, uncertain, and completely rational if it's all you knew.

[@johnhammond6423]

This is what religion does to somebody. They simply can't step outside of their religious box.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

yup! i was there once, thus my hope for others to see the light someday. Any small part I can contribute to that is well worth my time.

[@istvansipos9940]

mike does this for a living. He could step out. He does not want to.

[@CaliforniaSurfer-gc2xv]

They MAKE MONEY. LYING PSYCHOS

[@Grayraven777]

let's debunk this right now, jesus says you can have whatever you want if you just believe and ask for it in his name it will be given you... So pray that this atheist hears the Lords voice in his head right now, so that he may know you exist, and be saved. Seems legit right, if I heard a voice in my head saying "kneel before Zod" I would probably kneel before Zod, but after a few minutes of absolute silence, the jig would be up, and another fraud would walk away sad, or accuse me of lying, saying that I really had heard the voice, I just didn't want to admit it.

[@omnikevlar2338]

This was great! My issue is if the believers are gonna accuse non believers that they must be doing some level of resistance to maintain nonbelief. Couldn't the nonbeliever flip the script on the believers that they must be doing some level of resistance to maintain faith? This is the problem when we try to psychoanalyze each other beyond what people are presenting rather than take each other at their word.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

100%! Has to go both ways, or just drop it!

[@steveg1961]

Except in the latter case, religious believers really are emotionally opposed to scrutinizing their religious beliefs in a critical manner, both in regard to the fallacious nature of religious rhetoric as well as in regard to the lack of any good empirical evidence. A glaring example of this is the tens of millions of fundamentalist Christians who believe in young earth creationism.

[@martifingers]

"his is the problem when we try to psychoanalyze each other beyond what people are presenting ..." I have to agree OmniKevlar and yet... it is hard to deny that religious faith (broadly understood) is basic to how we view our selves and others and crucially how we deal with mortality. I have become very persuaded by some of the arguments of Terror Management Theory - and that is dependent on certain psychoanalytic assumptions particularly the unconscious and repression. It's a complicated set of ideas in fact but quite fascinating but even if entirely accurate there is still the problem , as you point out, of how we enter dialogue with those who disagree. It might be impossible but there have been some intriguing developments recently such as William Lane Craig's admission about his" low epistemological bar", some of Pinecreek's exchanges with theists and so on. Emotionally mature discussions would probably be much more productive than abstract philosophical debates or the tendentious ramblings of Mr Winger.

[@joegame4576]

"Couldn't the nonbeliever flip the script on the believers that they must be doing some level of resistance to maintain faith? " you actually could. this is not a problem for christians.

[@steveg1961]

​@@joegame4576 You wrote, "This is not a problem for Christians." In fact, it's a fundamental problem for every Christian who tries to pretend that the Bible somehow constitutes some kind of "infallible" and "inerrant" "revelation" from an omniscient god - because the Bible itself displays quite obviously the fact that it isn't anything of the sort.

[@peertopeertherapy3720]

My wife and I had two children and we never abandoned or hid ourselves from them because we love them. Why then does a all powerful god that supposedly created us that Christians claim is a loving heavenly father abandoned and hide from us? Makes no sense to me.

[@jon4574]

Another bottle of Winger's Weaksauce. An important problem I didn't find mentioned is the alleged case of Doubting Thomas. Thomas supposedly got to witness Jesus performing real magical miracles and still doubted, and was in the story given evidence by chatting with and touching Jesus. If Jesus is really alive it'd be just and consistent to give the same evidence to all of us. As you said, there's the problem with verses that claim Jesus loves the world, came to save it, and wants a relationship with as many people as possible. Ascending into the clouds and being hidden is the exact opposite of what he'd need to do to achieve that goal. The only good answer is that Jesus is still dead, but apologists can't have that.

[@mollizi2131]

That's the problem! I have sincerely looked for god thru several religions and never found him. Why do we have to search for god? If god is real why does he have to be searched for? It's like looking for an answer to an unknown/hidden question, a god is not necessary for a meaningful loving life!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yup! The whole question in general is a bit too obvious for this kind of an answer

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

I'm reminded of that movie The Grey, when Ottway looks up at the sky and says, "Show me something real. F*ck faith; I need it now!" I think a lot of us can relate to that.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

that movie is an underrated gem! And yes, exactly.

[@anzacman5]

We just have to look around, with eyes open.

[@bobjeankins2639]

He’s not really a low hanging fruit as you say Brandon. He’s got a large audience and his beliefs have consequences. I say to keep challenging then man

[@SunflowerLife1]

Yes please! This man needs to be challenged as much as possible. He seemed more interested in spreading hate than anything else. He wants to scare Christians and thinking everyone that doesn’t agree with them is out to get them. He tells his audience not to trust the skeptics and nonbelievers because they’re all evil and they lie. It doesn’t matter how educated the skeptic may be on the topic he claims they will twist the truth and leave out half the evidence just to manipulate them. He then turns around and does exactly what he accuses skeptics of doing and Christians don’t see it. It boggles my mind. He needs to be stopped.

[@ServantofBaal]

As someone who was once a believer, I find his premise to be incredibly insulting. I looked long and hard for a shred of evidence for divinity. I was in their education system for a few years so I knew what to look for, and in those places I found that scientific observation didn't support the notions. I was very faithful. How dare somebody like him question so many who were so devoted and chalk it up to "You just weren't trying hard enough".

[@MindShift-Brandon]

exactly. Its inexcusable, but he just laughs like its our problem for brining it up. The insanity!

[@FakingANerve]

It makes me wonder if he is maybe being a bit willfully insulting because at some level he knows he has no other rebuttal and that worries him.

[@kurtfrederiksen5538]

Honestly, Winger is worse than this. I made the mistake of watching a few of his more recent videos (made in the last year) and in several he is guilty of immediately poisoning the well by calling anyone who disagrees with him immoral, irrational, etc. Then as you said, the complete mischaracterization and assumptions he makes on top of that. Then I found his debate with Matt Dillahunty he did like 5 years ago on a Christian apologetics channel. To the channels credit they left comments on, even though the majority of them were pointing out how weak Winger's position was, and saying things like he helped them move from the Christian faith. Despite all this, he still is making the same arguments and claims, even after it was demonstrated how terrible they are. In retrospect, I think his videos are not made for non-believers, or agnostics. His videos are made for those who already believe and who want to feel secure in their beliefs without needing to really examine their own views or put any effort introspection.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Spot on. It was people like him and videos just like his that kept me hanging in the religion as long as I did.

[@paulfinkelstein1448]

As a non-believer with no history in his faith, I find it extremely offensive that I have to presuppose his belief, rejecting my own, and actively seek to confirm it, in order to claim I am sincerely seeking the truth. I, also, find it offensive that I must seek his specific truth, instead of truth more generally.

[@keobakilemahura4890]

Since Mike believe that people are not really sincere, they just sincerely think they're sincere, my question then would be what is the measure for sincerity, what are the key indicators for one's sincerity. He cannot tell except to imply that the measure is his favorable end results. If the results are what he wanted then the person was sincere, if not then they were not. This is incredibly dishonest and stupid. I think not realizing how stupid his arguments are is his real problem here.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yes its fallacious on a multitude of levels.

[@pickenchews]

I'm 42. I've spent my entire life deeply deeply deeply yearning for God, thinking about God, putting God at the center of my heart and thinking of Him countless times per day (and still intend to cling to my often-feeble faith forever). I've also spent my whole life wrestling with doubt, and everytime another believer questions my sincerity, when I've literally cried my eyes out for God to show me He's real many many many times, that person is basically slamming the door shut to me ever taking their spiritual advice seriously. It's very hard to offend me, but that ignorant dismissal SERIOUSLY offends me. I often doubt they can even fathom the level of sincerity it takes to walk in my shoes on this. For people like that, it apparently comes too easy.

[@jesusislord9116]

First off I love the number 42 I actually have a barcode tatto with the UPC 42424242 ha I've seen the number too much and it holds significance in my life. But I also agree with you 100% there are simply somethings that make no sense and this is one where it seems illogical from a theistic view point. I question this constantly as I believe people have sincerely seeked out God and some say they are disappointed every time I've heard every sort of argument for divine hiddeness, Inspiring Philosophy and Mike winger . Propose different views on it I'm sorry this happened to you and it definitely may be frustrating. Most Christians would presume that either You aren't being sincere which it seems to me is out of the question though I don't know your heart and it's motives Or that simply God knows what you will do what that knowledge and you might reject him anyways due to his morally just ways. Again no evidence for any of this, these are theological view points But it definitely touches my heart that this happened to you.

[@jesusislord9116]

Again my views on the God of the Hebrew Bible . Stands firm in his word I still struggle with experiences and wanting to feel God out or see him move . Have you ever thought maybe your cries out are ways that God is softening your heart to than have a firmer faith? Not sure where you stand in your belief 😢

[@anzacman5]

Well, the question I've got is "do you need to believe?" And "why do you think you need to believe?" From my experience in church going, believing was "saying the script", saying the "right words." I'd call that social pressure actually. That on top of religious pressure to avoid hell. Ah, the power of pressure on those that are needy. ​@@jesusislord9116

[@oliversch2183]

Out of the countless 'atheist' channels I'm subscribed to it's your channel that I would like to see growing faster the most 🤗

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Oh man. I really appreciate that. Thank you, Oliver! Working on it, ha.

[@Lauren_12695]

Yep! This channel and Alex O Conner’s are my favorites

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Hes my favorite, what a compliment

[@petermartell568]

so how much is Winger making from his grift? He must know that Jesus calls for him to give everything away if he wants to follow Jesus. He does not seem sincere

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Great point. But i can hear all the christian excuses now on how much further his ministry can go etc. ugg

[@CharlesPayet]

On this one, I fundamentally and viscerally agree with you 100%, Brandon. Winger’s argument is so insulting as to be infuriating. Like you, I was a Christian for 30 years, and I take those arguments quite personally.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Glad to find such common ground. My blood was boiling for sure!

[@germanslice]

@@MindShift-Brandon There are certain things he teaches for doctrine which are not correct before God. When Winger claimed that Melchizedek of Genesis that Abraham had paid his tithing to was Jesus. I thought, no that's is not right. For Jehovah existed in spirit form before he was even born in the flesh as Jesus Christ in Jerusalem through the virgin Mary.. And the prophets testify that Jehovah would not take upon himself flesh except he be born of a virgin.

[@88mphDrBrown]

Tbf it's more a function of how rock solid the argument is. It's so sound that his only options are to attack our sincerity or our ability to even be aware of what we know. It's hard to think of a more patheticly dishonest response to an interlocutor than "You don't actually know what you really know or believe. You don't have conscious access to your own subconscious knowledge, but I (a complete stranger) get to make claims about your subconscious knowledge." It's practically the textbook definition of gaslighting, just without the incremental aspect.

[@germanslice]

@@88mphDrBrown Winger contradicts the prophecies. So I didn't accept what he taught. None of the prophets taught that Jehovah would appear in Genesis as melchizedek. That conclusion is made up by winger through misinterpreting the scriptures.. The prophets only taught that Jehovah would appear as Jesus in Jerusalem born of a virgin and that the star would be the sign that Christ has come into the world for the first time.

[@CharlesPayet]

@@germanslice the point is, none of that is real or happened in the first place. Secondly, your point has absolutely nothing to do with the any of the points made in the video.

[@KeanuReevesIsMyJesus]

It’s so great to see your sub count go up, every time we click on your videos. Well deserved and looking forward to your growth.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Really kind! I'm hoping to get to 10k by the end of the year. That would just blow me away. But I really want to be in a position to start interviewing apologists, authors, atheists, activists etc. Thank you for the support!

[@emmanuella2960]

@@MindShift-Brandon @MindShiftSkeptic 10k? It's so nice to see this 'cause we're at 19k two months before the end of the year. Much love and growth, Brandon.

[@justinhart2831]

I love how Mike personally attacks atheists as his "defense" against the divide hiddenness argument, and then tries to insulate himself from being called out for it by making fun of the people he's attacking for presumably objecting to his attack.

[@26beegee]

Believers are always looking for reasons to blame the non-believers because they cannot accept any notion of a flaw/mistake/conflict/error in their perception of a god. For them, having their image of god shattered is their worst nightmare. So of course it must be us because it simply can’t be their god! I wonder why some people need so much to cling to a fantasy while others can find peace, even happiness without it? 🤷🏼‍♀️

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I am becoming more and more convinced that personality type is huge into which ones do what when faced with the truth. Some people just seem bent to not care, not take arguments seriously, bury their head in the sand etc. What is it? I just cannot understand.

[@bradypustridactylus488]

Divine hiddenness was irrelevant. I was serious, but I was never sincere. Generalized Anxiety Disorder makes every decision and every position subject to a second guess and a timid assent. "A prison wall was round us both. Two outcast men we were. The world had thrust us from its heart, And God from out His care, And the iron gin that waits for Sin Had caught us in its snare." --Oscar Wilde

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Quoting Mr. Wilde is music to my ears!

[@nore4]

I've been playing hide and seek with God for over two decades. It's fair to say he is still winning. 😄 Though I sought him, I couldn't find him, and had to give up the search for my own sake! I wasn't living my life at all!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Been there!

[@sanjeevgig8918]

Yahweh/Jesus: The winner of longest Hide-and-Seek game ever. 2000 YEARS and counting. . LOL

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I almost titled this video something like that, ha.

[@KeanuReevesIsMyJesus]

That’s not true. He shows up on toast every now and than. Sometimes as a Cheeto too.

[@FinHammer]

Come on Sanjeev, look at the trees!!! 😆

[@nauticdixons]

That's exactly what I said 😂

[@sanjeevgig8918]

@@nauticdixons My last few comments were deleted. It was fun while it lasted.

[@therhapsodist976]

An omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, all-benevolent god would not have any issues with revealing itself to us in tangible, measurable, repeatable manners; the hiddenness argument is silly.

[@mikeharrison1868]

There's nothing I would love more than to have a relationship with a truly loving and sensible god.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

same, it is more than a shame its just not real.

[@AUniqueHandleName444]

Absolutely. How amazing that would be.

[@Cuffsmaster]

"sensible god" He got off to a bad start in the old testament. There might be a better one out there to consider.

[@mikeharrison1868]

@@Cuffsmaster Exactly. I can't reconcile any kind of Tri-omni god with the problem of evil. Even trying to envisage a religion built fresh from the ground up, without all the bullsh*t built into past religions, it just doesn't seem possible.

[@devin5312]

“the problem with divine hiddenness is really a problem with people sincerity” that has to be the biggest cop outs I have every heard. That is absolutely absurd bruh. Just say you don’t have an answer mike, stop making excuses for your god my guy. If he was real he could literally come down to earth and show himself and then that way people would either choose to follow him or not. Ugh sorry Brandon, I get aggravated about this.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

No apologies needed. I was beside myself.

[@devin5312]

@@MindShift-BrandonIf a higher power were to reveal itself to everyone, the need for faith would be eliminated since we would all know of its existence. It can be challenging to comprehend why this higher power requires us to believe and have faith in its existence when a simple revelation would suffice.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Insert Christian free will argument. But we know how that breaks down.

[@devin5312]

@@MindShift-Brandon sadly yes. Good video Brandon! Looking forward to more 💯 🔥

[@leob3447]

@@MindShift-Brandon And that argument assumes that free will really exists in the manner depicted in the Bible, which it sure doesn't seem to.

[@donnyh3497]

Mike's parents made him so intensely terrified of hell that he has literally no chance of ever seeing the truth. He will make excuses for his imaginary friend until the day he dies 😅

[@MindShift-Brandon]

3 years ago, I was not far off from where Mike is. Maybe hope yet!

[@MrCanis4]

@@MindShift-Brandon In my country Belgium 60 years ago 90% were christians, now the churches are falling into ruins. Now less than 10% practicing christians.

[@Cuffsmaster]

@@MrCanis4 I wish it was true here as well

[@yvonnepeltier9815]

It just reminds me of Linus, searching for a "sincere" pumpkin patch. " Nothing but sincerity as far as the eye can see..." And just wait until next year, he'll find a pumpkin patch that is real sincere. Because of course the Great Pumpkin never showed up. How could a pumpkin patch not be sincere anyway? Would there be a few butternut squash vines mixed in among the pumpkins? Sheesh

[@FakingANerve]

First time seeing you in my feed. Mere minutes in and I'm already subbed. You're doing good work! Cheers.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

oh wow, thank you so much. That is very encouraging, and welcome!

[@zJohnnyMac]

It's definitely a confusing theory. Although how can one be sure they even hear from God? If the world is at odds with its own duality, then a revealing could be tricking you entirely. We approach these topics assuming God would be trying to fix you... Though this world doesn't satisfy that. It's more of a "Do what you want and see what happens". Test things, ask questions, but to dismiss the possibility that there is objective Good? I think is foolish, because we as people disagree so much, something MUST have a last say. Like a police officer, then a judge, then a president. What has the last say on Hitler? Death seems to always be the final answer to everything... Yet the only reason you stay alive is because you hope you can live long enough to do something.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I hear you. Thank you for this comment and adding in to the conversation!

[@Klepske]

Something that hit me recently... Why would it even be necessary to seek god? If he's so loving and wants a relationship, you'd think he'd make himself known from the moment I was able to comprehend?

[@MindShift-Brandon]

It really should be that simple!

[@anzacman5]

Judt look around, with eyes open . No seeking required, no script to follow

[@anzacman5]

"Just"

[@robquinn3584]

You are very logical and coherent. I wish I found you in 1962. Now at 71 years of age, I don't know what to do with your illumination of reality.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thats very kind. Never too old for truth and logic!

[@anzacman5]

Same age, same experience. For me, it's a new start , free from the pressure to be "Christian ". Just enjoy being the person you never could be. Stop being the person you thought you had to be. Freedom from guilt. Freedom from "sin". Freedom from pretending. It's great. How's it going with you, my friend?

[@MarkC-n2i]

My deconversion took way more than three years. I feel so fortunate to have gotten free from my obsession with god at all. Being brought up to be a believer sucks!

[@rizdekd3912]

You and me both. It took me more than 10 years for go from a convinced Christian to someone who had to admit I no longer thought God existed and probably not any kind of 'super being.' It was a long slow deliberate investigative process such that now there are NO lines of reasoning anyone brings to the table that I have not thought through and found a naturalistic answer for.

[@Jonas-gl9ke]

A major issue for me is that those who allegedly have a personal revelation with god don’t demonstrate a way to know for certain the mechanism by which their transformation occurred. When value and truth are distinguished, any set of beliefs that leads to perceived value can be seen as true by the believer but this is fallacious. Those with “transformative experiences” need a way to falsify their claim or else accept the “truths” of other conversion experiences. If they can’t falsify their experience, their belief is no more valid than those of a Muslim, Jehovah Witness, Hindu, FLDS or Mormon.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yes! i'll never understand how they can so easily dismiss the personal experience of others that believe differently. well put.

[@Cuffsmaster]

@@MindShift-Brandon I always questioned the whole concept of "Personal relationship" with god.

[@panqueque445]

God testing our fate makes no sense to me. The entire old testament is a collection of stories of the Israelites not listening to god, not obeying him and not doing what he wants. These people were god's special people, they didn't need faith, they were beyond faith because they saw god. They saw him physically show up and do things. There was no question that god existed, and still people kept turning his back on him. So why in the hell does he think that hiding himself would work? If these people who literally saw god couldn't keep it together, what hope do we have? This makes no sense.

[@Imnot-fj1yx]

لماذا الديانة المسيحية تعترف بالعهد القديم ؟

[@pyktukasplays4945]

​@@Imnot-fj1yxChristianity recognises the Old Testament because Christianity implies itself to being continued Judaism. Or corrected Judaism.

[@F-hj9mz]

so good, man! You had wonderful points to each of his objections.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you much!

[@martifingers]

First time viewer here and I have subscribed! This is a very serious problem for believers so I am not surprised that the typical response is to impute insincerity. While it is true that other more philosophical or theological arguments are possible I think what is going on here is an emotional response to having their defense against existential anxiety being subjected to questioning. I appreciate that this be characterised as me ascribing a psychological motivation just as the apologists are doing - there is some truth in that I guess but that's a whole other story. However as Mindshift points out, no-one can know another's thoughts as well as the person themselves so ascribing non-belief to insincerity, the desire to sin etc etc is definitely a form of mental violence - it denies the non-believer's validity as a person. If this was done within a family by a parent, it would be potentially damaging to a child's mental health. As adults we can (more or less) react with justifiable exasperation and outrage and be grateful that apologists have no real power.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Well im subscribing to this comment because i couldnt agree more and this is so thoughtfully said. Thanks for the contribution and for joining the family here!

[@markoshun]

My first video of Winger he clearly lost a debate with Dilahunty, as his logic is severely limited by his beliefs, but I was struck by how sincere and likable he seemed and went to watch his analysis of the debate. Matt was actually at his worst in that video, yet the only reason Mike could find that he 'lost' was Matt's charm and wit. A few more videos and I now see him as one of the worst of the 'true atheist' deniers to me. His rejection of my sincerity is complete.. he 'knows'. He's insanely arrogant and disrespectful. Reminds me of the quote that religion allows good people to do evil things.

[@tigdogsbody]

Do leprechauns, unicorns, fairies, the Sasquatch and the Loch Ness monster deserve the divine hiddenness trump card as Jesus gets?

[@istvansipos9940]

and Tinkerbell? asking for a friend.

[@SDGlock23]

I was sincere in trying to have a relationship with God. I believed absolutely 100% and was raised Christian, I just never found what I was searching for. I had faith and would have called myself a believer, I really thought he listened to my prayers and cared. Maybe God just doesn't want a relationship with me, but one thing is for certain, God is great at hiding.

[@Imnot-fj1yx]

مع ذلك أنت لا زلت تؤمن بوجود الله 😵

[@davidhanson888]

i have a daughter. i love her so much. when she disobeyed, i show mercy and grace. i commune with her everyday. i am beside her all the time despsite the stubbornness. i am always there for her. now let's talk about the god of abraham, the one known to all as loving and merciful. where is he now? why is he hiding?

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Exactly. As a parent its obvious he’s either not their or horrible.

[@theunholinesswithin70]

If god was actually physically with people after banishing Adam and Eve, I would need the christians' definition of "sin". If the definition is "absence of god", that means anybody within god's presence can't be a sinner. This also means god can't be immunity from sin. Adam and Eve were (or should've been) the existential equivalents to Jesus, having been created by god, which should've meant immunity from sin. Which would mean sin couldn't have ever happened (to us).

[@beecontent]

Thank you very much for making this rebuttal video. I agree with your defence. My commitment is to the whole truth about all of reality. My commitment is not to religious books which claim to tell the truth while being full of lies.

[@Simon.the.Likeable]

Absolutely nothing Winger serves up is aimed at atheists. He is presenting feel-good reinforcements for Christian believers already entrenched in their faith. He is not talking to doubters or folks from other religions either.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

yup, you are right of course. Its so sad to see peoples faith reaffirmed by his weak arguments.

[@skepticusmaximus184]

Another thing I would say to Mike Winger is, if you can't drop presuppositional apologetics and come to the table without assuming your god belief to be factual correct, then do you dare try digging into the sincerity of your interlocutor. Apart from precluding the possibility of gods non-existence, by framing the issue as either god playing hide and seek, or the atheists (however unwitting) incrncerity, we should note that from the outset, Mike thinks the honest way to approach the discussion is to "poke holes in this argument". It literally not an option to consider the argument, steelman the athist and measure the parsimony of all possibilities to reach a mutual understanding and perhaps even agree. No its a strait up determination to dismis the issue by precluding the non-existence of god and "poking holes" in the argument. I won't be told by a two faced hypocritical projectionist, that I'm not being sincere. In anycase, even if I haven't tried realy hard to pray and beg and grovel to his allleged god, I'm not at fault for divine hiddenness. We shouldn't have to start pretending first and fake it till we make it. That is how self delusion is fostered. If willful self deception is required, then justified scepticism is precluded. And willful self deception IS required. At the core of Christian doctrine the message of salvation, is necessarily predicated on a belief that god exists and Jesus was sent to save us. OK? So belief is necessary and if you can't find good reason and evidence to believe (without self deception), then disbelief is not only justified but necessary. The real problem comes down to doxastic volunteerism and freewill. I not only don't believe god exists, but I don't believe doxastic volunteerism is a method of reaching sound conclusions. Wingers whole dogma is predicated on deciding what to believe rather than coming to inevitable conclusions after reasonable scepticism. His insincerity is fundamental to his doctrine and his determination to avoid any critical thinking about his God beliefs is brazenly obvious. Its pure hypocritical projection on his part to scrutinise the sincerity of atheists.

[@tomaskey6844]

A few times over 50 years I thought I connected to god but it never lasted more than a day. It always intrigued me when preachers act like they are praying and god is talking back to them. One even told god to let him get back to preaching and they could talk later. I think it’s BS.

[@GoalGuy-s8h]

I doesnt matter who youre responding to... if you feel the need to respond to something then DO IT!!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Thank you for that!

[@MG-ot2yr]

Divine Hiddenness was the major thing that caused me to reject the whole idea of Christianity, and all religions for that matter, as a child. I can remember asking my mother at about age 7 or 8 why god didn't just show himself, and got the standard non-answers "you just have to have faith" or "god works in mysterious ways". And yes if you read the Bible, god is quite visible in many stories, lived among the people for 33 years, then poof disappears, MIA now for 2000 years. So yea something that doesn't exist would be invisible!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Issues everywhere! Glad you made it out!

[@ameliaportman7046]

Mr.Winger's chats with Pinecreek Doug are recommended viewing.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ill look into it! Someone else just recommended pinecreek the other day

[@ameliaportman7046]

@@MindShift-Brandon The 3hr Magnum Opus on attacking & mocking Christians is my fav.

[@bobmudge4836]

If god has the desire and the superior resources to ensure each and every one of us gets saved, it’s on him to accomplish it.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

very well said!

[@EMDS04]

This is my first time watching your channel and i must say im very impressed. I really admire the way you think and also explain arguments so that its easy to follow. Thank you very much keep up the good work

[@MindShift-Brandon]

thanks, Leonard! thats very encouraging to hear. Welcome to the family!

[@manuelbaez7148]

I really wish you & others would stop apologizing for doing what’s absolutely right by exposing these POS!!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha! Thanks Manuel. My only apology is putting two winger videos in front of everyone in 3 days.

[@laurenpatricia411]

Mike is not a piece of shit. Because you disagree with him, you resort to name calling? I pray you find peace.

[@alanhyland5697]

The problem with Mike Winger is that he seems to be always preaching to the choir. These arguments make sense to a believer. They also allow the Christian to feel a sense of superiority over others.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

yes, thats the scary part. how many christians who are doubting hear about this good argument, type it in youtube. And up pops Mike to reassure them, make them feel foolish for ever doubting, and give enough excuses to ease their doubts. This happened to me a lot towards my end with christianity. Just relying on others to alleviate the questions I was too scared to really get an answer for.

[@alanhyland5697]

@@MindShift-Brandon Me too. That's how I even found Mike Winger.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

well thankfully, we both made it out

[@carlystur]

Cool video! Even over a decade later after I considered myself to be an atheist, I've loved finding and watching videos like this! ❤ I'm subscribing!

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Welcome to the fam! Appreciate that!

[@conamin78]

Glad I stumbled on your channel ! I am a Christian, and many times I have struggled with my relationship with God. Consistentcy in how Christians deal with each other, and those that do not believe in God has always been a frustration for me. I appreciate how you approach each of your react vids that I have seen so far. Keep up the good work you are doing.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Appreciate the kind words and support despite our difference. Cheers!

[@Arlondev]

Some wacko religious cult was handing out pamphlets in my city, I wanna print out missing posters for God and hang them up around the city. Like "Have you seen this God? Name: Yahweh, Allah, Abbah, Jeshua, Jesus, Jehova, among other things. Age: Infinite. Height: Varies. Hair: Not much. Like genocide, long walks on the beach, slavery, scented candles, ethnic cleansing. Missing for 13.8 billion years, not a single trace ever found, presumed dead due to lack of evidence"

[@MindShift-Brandon]

i dont always love snark, but I lovedd this. well done!

[@moodyrick8503]

The Bible says over and over and over, that _"God wants a personal relationship with us"._ *(a relationship like no other)* Forget trying to see God, as you can't even have a _"back & forth conversation"_ with him. (just men that claim to speak & write for God) The Bible also says : _"No One Knows The Mind Of God"._ Yet Christians claim to have intimate knowledge of his _thoughts, wishes, traits & goals._ (and what he wants all of humanity to do with their life)

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Moody Rick nails it again!

[@moodyrick8503]

*_Poor Mike_** ;* He's obviously angry at Allah, and his _angry sinful heart_ is blocking him from hearing the truth, as revealed in the Quran. _Same context, just different bullshit._

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Exactly!

[@ByronAgain]

I left the church because of people like Mike. The dishonesty, the endless reek of smug, arrogant sanctimony. Dodging questions, discouraging any sincere inquiry and badgering people who dared to ask anything that tested the veracity of the faith. One day enough was enough.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

I wish i would have known about winger. Perhaps i would have deconverted earlier. Ha.

[@HarmonicResonanceScale]

God runs away when you sin apparently. So much for the omnigod hypothesis. I guess the god of the bible cannot overcome our sin. Seems like a weak, ineffectual god that mike believes in.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Right?!

[@rationalhuman2149]

I’ve personally heard dozens of testimonies of people who said “I wasn’t seeking god, I wanted nothing to do with god, church, religion…but god chose me to reveal himself”. How does that track with the “sincerity “ requirement?

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Exactly. its just so weak

[@Y0urY4kuza]

“He’s allowed me to even pull people away from the faith, because his ‘plan’ is greater…” 😂😂😂

[@stevenhogenson4880]

The discussion about questioning sincerity aligns with the problem about prayer...not enough faith. If you had enough faith, your prayers would work. As always, god gets a free pass and the problem is with the person rather than the deity.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Yes just bad and disgusting excuses for gods ineptitude .

[@mauselioe6838]

Good day I’m a born again Christian who has been binge watching your videos.. I have not seen a video about the objection theists give about where atheists get their morality from. The sense of good and evil. And Iv seen you have a huge problem with most people ending up in hell, but there are differing views of hell like annihialitionism, purgatory and universalism. Would any of these views of hell cause u to change your perspective on God?

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Great questions. A morality video is coming. Also, thanks for watching. As for hell, i am aware of many of the other views and if this whole thing were real, id be open to one of them being right. To me, jesus’ words seem pretty clear and all these new ideas on hell seem to be people moving the goalpost to fit their current morality that has surpassed christianity. To answer your question though, it would not help at this point. Its a part of all my issues but not the sole issue and fixing one thing doesnt all of a sudden make the bible more valid or plug holes in everything else.

[@richardgardiner242]

As a lifetime atheist, I'm absolutely and sincerely *not* looking for god. The whole concept of god makes no sense to me and never has. I have read and heard multiple reasons why god exists and none of them have sufficient intellectual or emotive strength to change my mind. The dishonesty of people like Mike Winger (and many other apologists) just makes them unpleasant.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Cant imagine what it would be like to be free of this harmful, ridiculous belief since birth. Thanks for watching!

[@thedesertwarrior7447]

I had heard Christians often tell other Christians, "The only Jesus people will see is you." 🗣️😇 It simply proved to me that religiously we are doomed. When I was a Christian, I found myself to be THE WORST example of who Jesus is alleged to be. I am scarred by that implied demand to "be the Jesus that others will see." I mean no disrespect to Mr. Winger, but his argument for "divine hiddenness" is judgmental, and petulant.

[@pmtoner9852]

God got really stingy with his appearances soon after the invention of Photography

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Ha indeed!

[@druidriley3163]

Yup. The more we got the technology to record and document miracles, the less these things have happened.

[@cb73]

Isn’t it possibly a form of projection when Mike asserts that “it’s human psychology” to believe you are sincere but deep down you have some ulterior motive? If it’s human psychology and presumably Mike is a human then the same can be said about his own sincerity as a Christian. He says he sincerely believes in god but we can likewise argue, due to “human psychology” that deep down, he doesn’t really believe.

[@dimitrioskalfakis]

yeah, in the debate with matt dillahunty his weak arguments were exposed to all their glory for everyone to despair with and be annoyed by.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Oh i need to go watch that asap!

[@Cowface]

This argument from Mike winger I find particularly contemptible. I get triggered by gaslighting and this whole “you may think you’re sincerely looking but you’re actually not sincere, even if you think you are” is arguably a textbook example. I will not mince words, this is emotional abuse, Mike winger is abusing his audience. If his message was heard by someone who was, say, in the early stages of deconstruction, it could do lifelong damage to their own sense of self and perception of reality. All this to keep the god belief alive for just a little bit longer. This is justified of course, because a lifetime of self loathing and mental illness is essentially 0% of an eternity in heaven. It’s beyond contempt.

[@RayRushing-q2g]

And why should it be so hard for us to prove our sincerity or desire to believe in god? Isn't it supposed to be the faith of a mustard seed?

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Right?!

[@xtina2189]

God be like: whatever I am & do is what good is... because I said so, & I'm selfless & loving because I said so." Or "because someone else said I said so... I'm soooo important I wouldn't dare speak for myself.

[@AUniqueHandleName444]

His argument about it being due to a person's integrity or sincerity seems to go against the gospel message that Jesus died for -everyone's- sins.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Im starting to think he is a Calvinist and thus must really be on board with god not loving everyone and having favorites etc.

[@vladimirgrbic8325]

This morning I sincerely wanted daylight not to reveal itself to me, because I was so tired and wanted to sleep some more, get a quality rest. But, out of the blue, daylight presented itself to me in its full glory! 🌞😳🥴 I guess I wasn't sincere enough, because of my multilayered complex psychology... whataeva'. 😎 And that's the problem of daylight unhiddenness.

[@88mphDrBrown]

The primary aspect of divine hiddenness for me is the juxtaposition between Christian claims of God's omnibenevolence, God's degree of caring about my beliefs surrounding him, and the horrid degree of my punishment for honestly not knowing if he exists.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

This is extremely well said and so simply put. Thank you!

[@ladyeowyn42]

Yes, as if God is hiding from the people he hates - including a lot of children. I clearly remember being a devout young child wondering why I couldn’t sense or hear god/angels.

[@OldNewsIsGoodNews]

Re: The insincerely seeking segment, in addition to the fact that sincere seekers do exist, I don't have to try that hard to find/seek out most of the people whom I know exist, sincerely or otherwise. I didn't know most of my friends existed as specific individual people (as opposed to just knowing that people in general exist, which is another tangent for another time) before I met them at work, an event, a class, or whatever else. I didn't go out *seeking* them specifically, and yet i know they exist. Same goes for KZbinrs, politicians, actors, or whoever else I know exists because I've seen them in papers, on TV, and so on. I didn't go out *seeking* to know that Obama, Trump, or Biden exist and are the three most recent American presidents. But I still encountered that information and didn't reject their veracity. If those very normal, fallible humans are capable of making their existence known to me without me actively looking for them (and in most cases without them intentionally trying to make their presence known to me, either!), I shouldn't need to go out *seeking* an all-powerful being in order for that being to make his/her/its/cactus' existence known to me if that's what said being wants. Doesn't really matter if I'm actively seeking, much less whether I'm being sincere about it! If I can know that Ted Cruz exists by reading the newspaper or turning on the radio, then it should be at least that simple for an all-powerful God who actively wants to be known by everybody in the first place! (And I ain't buying the free will thing, because just like with all the politicians mentioned here, I can know that somebody exists and still freely like or dislike them.)

[@yourguard4]

If God would exist, nobody would need to defend him, because he could defend himself. And anyone, who is defending God, is implying, that God is to weak to defend himself, which is kinda blasphemie.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Right? all these self-appointed spokesmen for God...why would he need them. But the chrisitan answer is simple. God always uses man, look at Abraham, Moses, David, Paul etc.

[@beccajade5665]

Only you know whether you are sincere. One thing I can’t stand is when people act like they know us better than we know ourselves and label our intentions and motives. Christians do this ALL THE TIME. I left Christianity and my husband around the same time I’m sure you can imagine the judgment I receive and that people assume I left Christianity so I could embrace the sin of divorce. However I didn’t actually give up my belief in the God of the Bible until after I left him. Literally no one knows my whole story nor do they want to hear it.

[@apreviousseagle836]

This is the BIGGEST problem for me. We have to pray from a humble perspective. We can't get angry that we never get any replies. The moment we get angry, God goes "ohpp!! you got angry! I don't reply to angry people, sorry". Wouldn't God, if he loved me, try to ease my anger? Jonah got mad because God saved people that desperately deserved to die horribly, and all God could do was mock him. But ironically, at least that was an answer. We don't even get that.

[@druidriley3163]

It has to be the disbeliever's fault. Otherwise the believer might start to doubt. Get into a discussion with theists about bible verses and their meaning, and if you push enough scholarship on them on the meaning, they will devolve into the "You have to read scripture with your heart/spirit/rightness not just the words". So you, the skeptic are immediately wrong, even though you are reading the same bible verses with considerable knowledge and information, otherwise you would have come to THEIR conclusion. 🤷‍♂

[@PatrickWDunne]

I once had a friend make the argument "Just because you haven't seen God doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Have you ever seen a billion dollars?" She disregarded that we can all see physical money, so it's not far-fetched to think a billion $1 bills exist. The other difference is that money (and every other great mystery) isn't backed by an all-powerful intelligent being. It's hard for me to "prove" the existence of one billion dollars unless I am a billionaire but that doesn't mean there's not evidence for it. I can ask an intelligent and divine being to show himself to prove his existence. I can't do the same to a billion dollars. (Though, if a billion dollars wanted to show up to my front doorstep, I would happily accept.)

[@stevenbari5568]

I’m confused, is it a bad thing to do to research and try to see if God is real hoping he’s not? Shouldn’t the “sincerity” issue be a moot point? It sounds like the sincerity issue Is a placebo effect, “if you’re sincere in your quest to find God, you’ll find him” it just sounds to me like a placebo effect to keep people in the religion, despite no objective proof.

[@Nick-Nasti]

Arrogance and fallacies are the bread and butter of apologists. Personally, I’ve heard every argument a hundred times and find they range from flawed to silly. Sorry, but I can no longer take them seriously. I know I could be nicer, but I find it hard with so many like Mike.

[@aagereinertjakobsen4832]

Divine hiddenness imo is a pretty strong counter to claims of religious experience because it addresses the arrogance of claiming that the creator of existence cares more about some people than he does others based on completely arbitrary criteria. Some people get to 'talk' to their god on a daily basis, whereas the rest of us are left lost in fog with no discernible reason to see the divine in anything in our lives.

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Exactly! Well said. Thanks for being here.

[@moodyrick8503]

*The Bible = **_Gods words & instructions_** ?* As written, interpreted & spoken from the minds of men. *Faith In The Bible = **_"Faith in man"_** .*

[@lezbyanke777]

as violent as their god is, one would think that Satan was the merciful one

[@MindShift-Brandon]

sure can look that way.

[@skepticusmaximus184]

Mike sets up a false dichotomy. Either we atheists are accusing God of playing hide and seek, OR, we are guilty of incrncerity. This automatically precludes the option that God simply doesn't exist, and Mike is mistaken about his existence. The other problem is that he's determined to make this a blame game situation, where somebody has to be at 'fault' or to blame. There's no room for honest misunderstanding or misconception. Because Mike refuses to even consider the non-existence of god, he's forced to play the only other two possibilities off against each other. Those are respectively gods incrncerity and deception, or the atheists incrncerity and deception. It has to come down to a dichotomy of dishonesty and moral culpability. If we could both examine the claim for gods existence honestly and without prejudice, and then accept that any misconception or fallacy were honest misunderstandings, then there'd be no need for animosity or blame. Nobody has to be at fault and nobody to 'blame', but like I said, Mike precludes that, by refusing to engage in the hypothesis that God hiddenness is a function of its non-existence.

[@marcbernard1744]

This video was on Prophet of Zod’s feed and it led me to start following you. I love your arguments! Very well thought out

[@MindShift-Brandon]

Oh man, thats awesome. Thanks so much for coming over!