Mirage 2000C August 2022 Update (DCS)

[@fortinero3361]

I really enjoy your analysis mate, and the fact that you focus on numbers and public information, great work, best regards.

[@JETZcorp]

I like that you're THE only person who acknowledges that the Mirage can be good in 2-circle. It's a monster in 1-circle, but it can pull sustained too if you manage your speed properly. I see people trying to rate fight at 200kts and then say the Mirage can't do it. The vortex lift that makes the 1-circle happen will kill your 2-circle. Unload that wing!

[@FSX404]

Its a monster if the other guy plays nice and does what you want him to; slows down for you to 200 kts so you can be a monster in a 1 circle. What if you slow down to do your monster 1 circle fight and the other guy stays fast? Or the other guy is a monster Su27/MiG29 that will do a vertical from 250 kts and not play your one circle game?

[@JETZcorp]

@@FSX404 In my experience, if the setup is a guns-only dogfight, people are on their toes and do a decent job of avoiding mistakes. In a more complex environment, with missiles, where the fight starts BVR and goes to a merge, it's very rare anyone makes it to the 2nd turn against the Mirage. Going for a sustained 2-circle against a Hornet with 9Xs is asking for it - he'll just cash it in with the paddle and take a HOBS shot.

[@FSX404]

@@JETZcorp we can teach monkeys to one pull and shoot a missile at 90 deg, and not many planes would match a Mirage. So missiles are not a consideration for me in these videos. BVR and missiles are a part of aerial combat, and to each his own, but I dont see it as a learn first part. You first dogfight with a gun, then learn to dogfight with missiles... hard stuff first, the concept, angles, then other stuff.

[@JETZcorp]

@@FSX404 Sure, but I'm just saying that what works for guns is not what works for heaters. You can be in a great position to deny a gunshot but be wide open to a missile. The 1-circle keeps you out of the missile envelope. Gunzo is a valuable training exercise that builds skill in geometry and performance. It's just not how you collect kills under the canopy, most of the time. IMO the most valuable (and difficult) skill to learn in the Mirage is how to survive the Amraam gauntlet from first contact to the merge.

[@Chwibon]

June was a full engine update and it was acknowledged that the old FM wasn't fitting anymore. August update was the full FM overhaul.

[@h7369]

Great video ! As I recall, the authenticity of the Mirage 2k charts available on the internet was also controversial on the dcs forums. Anyway, assuming the charts are correct, the Mirage's FM model has been greatly improved, congratulations. In the previous flight model, the sustained turn rate at low speeds was noticeably over-performing.

[@_RAF_SkyRider_]

Thank's for so quick feedback, Gvad! We've got your point!

[@ilejovcevski79]

Great to see them moving in closer to the performance charts. I love this plane and hurts me both when it under and over performs. Hopefully soon it'll be right on the money

[@FSX404]

Pretty close, instantaneous is not as critical as sustained, but still important if you want to be aggressive in the Mirage. Anyways its only at 15K, it may be on the spot at SL. Also I dont mind a slight underperformance sometimes, cause it gives a more realistic real life scenario... in DCS you pull pull pull for 15 minutes, no change, in real life after 3 minutes you are dead tired.

[@ilejovcevski79]

@@FSX404 maybe, yeah. Depends on how they compute the flight model and are they lookup tables mach based or altitude based.

[@IYeSICMF04]

@@FSX404 I made sustained turns on sea level and M2000C makes 19.5°/s on 0.55M and 20+°/s on 0.65M with clean configuration and 1700kg of fuel (5min afterburner). It seems to me its hugely overperforms! But its flight model gets much better over time (from absolutely EliteDangerous spacecraft to something reminding an aircraft). p.s. What aircraft configuration your chart is for?

[@FSX404]

@@IYeSICMF04 when did you do it? Just a few days ago Mirage did overperform. Chart is for 2 IR missiles and 20.9K lbs (50% internal fuel). I tested at 22k lbs and no missiles, so its close enough to the chart, +/-0.5 deg or so

[@IYeSICMF04]

@@FSX404 Just today =) Thanks for info and video! I hope thats not final FM changes for Mirage.

[@Kingonads]

Good breakdown of the changes. The instant turn radius was changed... it is more sluggish in those style turns but not game breaking level.

[@stephenhulme9982]

Great video and well explained👋

[@Grosse_Ente]

Hey, thanks for the Vid! Very interesting and nice to see, that they are getting really close to the real performance. I have one question regarding here performance: Does she prefer the one or the two circle? I know you said the two circle in the video but i am a little confused since in the dogfight videos from Growling Sidewinder he always goes for the one circle. I am just getting into the combat with the mirage so i am really curious!

[@ianboys1000]

I agree, for me she's a one circle fighter

[@FSX404]

I'm not going to speak as to what others say, I'll kind of give you a overall pic. Mirage 2000 has a great intantaneous turn, allowing for an agressive attack first one circle... but if you miss, you are now at 200 kts. Now, Mirage at 200-250 kts, good turns (14-15 deg/sec), beats a lot of other planes. So if the other plane plays your game and is slow too, Mirage looks great, yay one circle fighter. What happens if the other guy stays fast and you are now in a delta plane that has a hard time accelerating under high AOA? So Mirage can do one circles if the other guy is slow too (which is what happens in GS videos). But a good pilot knows this and wont slow down. So, Mirage is in it element high and fast, if low and slow what happens depends on the other pilot. And "in its element" where you can control the fight, that is what makes a plane one circle, two circle, or vertical fighter.

[@FSX404]

G, join my discord and fly a one circle in a Mirage against me, then fly it like I show you, you can make your own decision which is better then.

[@Grosse_Ente]

@@FSX404 Thanks a lot! That was exactly what i was looking for, to get an idea how to play the strenghs of the mirage in a dogfight. Thank you!

[@FSX404]

@@Grosse_Ente link to join is in the description, we dont compete there (ok we do a bit, lol) but its more for learning

[@nath-hh2ff]

I was wondering if you felt like doing a autopilot ils landing with the f1? The manual dosent really give any help, and I am a noob.

[@FSX404]

If I did an ILS it would be manual. I never did one in DCS but have hundreds of real life ones. I'll take a look at it.

[@SalePlouck]

Nice vid but how did you get external M2k gun sound plz? mine is buggy like I only hear the bullets but not the gun itself

[@FSX404]

I don't know, I didn't do anything special. Might want to post a question on the Digital Combat Simulator facebook group, someone will answer fast.

[@SalePlouck]

@@FSX404 ok I'll do, thx for the quick answer, have a great day!

[@GamerFromSpace]

do you have a link for the dataset you have?

[@SlowFinger23]

missing the weight ??? or Fuel at the time plus ISA??

[@VixMusicProduction]

Instantaneous turn. Push and hold the elastic limiter and you will see what it does :P

[@D_Azera]

The aircraft can pull 9G without elastic limit and 11G with. The chart doesn't give information about 11G nor 10G ITR so it wouldn't be right to test it that way + pulling more G will surely make ITR higher but still incorrect compared to the chart because numbers are already incorrect at different speeds.

[@rikkyt66]

Data makes sense. I noticed needing to grab the paddle on high aoa snap shots that I wouldn't before, but losing less speed on aggressive sustained turns. I wonder if it's a the FCS needing to be turned in better to the changed performance characteristics. She's a lot more fun to fly now compared to a year ago though.

[@Bullet4MyEnemy]

16° sustained isn’t really “good” by any stretch, calling a delta wing a rate fighter is a bit of a weird view to have when it can beat almost literally everything in the sim when it comes to instantaneous turn. If you end up in a two circle with just about anything, you will die if the other guy knows what he’s doing, even if it’s a generation lower like the MiG-19. You say you only get one good turn in the one circle but you shouldn’t try to two circle for more than one turn either. The idea should be to establish off set angles to force high aspect in the two circle, allowing you room to reverse back into the one circle. One circle is your advantage, you should use it. Even in this clip the 19 reverses into a one circle and feeds you the kill, if he’d kept going right long enough you’d have had to ditch out, that thing would’ve rate-fought you into oblivion.

[@FSX404]

You do a one circle in a Mirage against me I'll get you fast.

[@pvtmaguire959]

Not entirely sure why you’re saying the 2 circle is the advantage for this jet when most of its 4th gen competitors like the 18/16 are getting around 20 degrees per second. Like sure the mirage can do it but it’s not it’s strongest play. Given most of the advantages of a delta wing are when it’s at slow speed and stable I don’t really see why you wouldn’t use it as a 1 circle fighter and abuse that.

[@FSX404]

Because you'd be dead fast against a good pilot. If you slow down to do a one circle, and the other guy stays fast, there is nothing you can do. A sitting duck. You guys really need to stop assuming that the other guy will play your game. He wont, he'll slow you down, stay fast himself, and toy with you. If you stay fast, you are running the fight and have options. That is why.

[@pvtmaguire959]

@@FSX404 going one circle doesn’t mean going slow. You’re confusing a 2 circle fight with keeping energy. Edit: for example booming and zooming, stacking high, extending, and potentially baiting a target into a stall climb (which the mirage is also very good at because of low speed performance) are all valid ways to bleed it of energy and kill it. None of these are aspects of a 2 circle fight and there’s very little reason you should be 2 circling in the mirage unless you want the guy to rip around the circle onto your ass while you’re trying to turn with him (which btw you’ll be slower than if you just extended and reversed into a 1c). 2nd edit: also taking the 2C absolutely does not give you options. If you sit in a 2C and let him rate you you’re just giving him angles onto your six and ACTIVELY REDUCING the amount of things you can do.You’ve effectively turned what may have been a neutral fight into one where you are now defensive because you were dumb enough to sit in a losing manoeuvre.

[@FSX404]

@@pvtmaguire959 yes, zoom and boom will work, and it is very effective in a Mirage, since its a small profile plane. Just have to remember zoom and boom is an art and have to be patient and have nerves of steel. Its my go to option if 2-circle doesnt work. Reason I go to 2 circle first is to see how good the other pilot is. If they maintain 2 circle, switch to more agressive zoom and boom, if they try to outpull and get inside, its a nice easy vertical with a roll right on to their 6, or if tge guy is really good, bug out. Zoom and boom is more risky, since the other guy can get a shot too (if good). When you have speed like in a 2 circle, you have all the options open, give me energy and I'll own the skies. You'll never get a shot at a fast plane in a 2 circle if they dont want you to have a shot.

[@pvtmaguire959]

@@FSX404 all of that relies on them pulling too early for lead in the rate. Which won’t always happen. Also relies on them going for the kill when you pull vertical/missing their gunshot opportunity. They can just as easily pull off when you pull vertical, keep all their energy (which they hold better than you because you’re in a delta), go vertical and come back down on you now that you’ve bled your speed. There’s no reason for you to be actively sitting and waiting and Losing in a 2 circle fight at all. Even a bad pilot in a plane with good sustained turn is just going to gain on you. You can just as easily see how good of a pilot they are by how they defend against you on their six from the merge. Edit: I wouldn’t exactly call 270 knots in a sustained turn (probably on the deck) a good energy state for the mirage. It’s definitely Not fast as you call it. Edit 2: so basically you’re saying you 2C until you start losing because the mirage sucks at sustained turn and then you swap and use the boom n zoom, 1C reversal tactics because that’s what it’s actually good at. Lmao. So it’s better at 1C which is the opposite of what you say in the video.

[@FSX404]

@@pvtmaguire959 its dynamic, and everyone has their preferences. For me, I think many cant do a proper high energy 2 circle at 450 kts, especially if I add yo yos, which leads to mistakes and advantage to me. But its not the only way or even the right way, just my way. Good discussion, join my discord, we'll go flying and talking

[@CarlosMoreno-dq3kg]

First rule of a fighter pilot: maintain the energy. Don’t loose it😎

[@FSX404]

Some folks keep insisting on dancing that one-circle slow dance in this fast lady!

[@killkesscmbn]

Would ou pls Show US some 2 Circle fights against otheer rate fighter?

[@FSX404]

@killkesscmbn This was against a very powerful Su27, and Albert was flying the Su27 in a 2 circle like I showed him, against some DCS guy who overpulls, Mirage would get a solution in less than 2 turns. I also go into some defense turned into offense at low altitudes. All starts with speed, speed speed. kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZ3Ri4SEespojtU

[@ianboys1000]

Did you really say the the Mirage 2000 was a 2 circle fighter?????

[@FSX404]

Yes, absolutely, 100% two circle fighter with a one good one circle turn.

[@FSX404]

This is what happens when a pilot watches too many Mirage one-circle videos and comes up against someone who know what they are doing... kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z3jYaJWaa6lkeMU

[@ianboys1000]

@@FSX404 You think it does better nose to tail than nose to nose??

[@FSX404]

@@ianboys1000 yes, it has one good one-circle turn, fast agressive first move... if you get a quick kill, great... but after it the M2000 slows down too much. At 220-250 kts it still gets 14-15 deg a sec at SL, still great so it will outperform manybother planes giving you the false idea that its a one circle fighter... but if the other pilot is good and keeps his speed up, that mirage perfomance at 220 kts is worthelss. Something like MiG29 or Su27 will toy with it. If you're in a F-5 ypu slow it to 140 kts and kill it.

[@Chwibon]

The pure one circle mirage is a myth from DCS. STR is really decent at proper speeds (even if it won’t match a viper)