MiSTer Vs RGB-Pi #2 - Input Lag? 🇬🇧 ENGLISH Dubbed 🇬🇧

[@theblowupdollsmusic]

Thank you for taking the time to do this comparison.

[@ZaPpaul]

Did you have fast USB polling enabled on the MiSTer?

[@lroby74]

You would like to make people believe that an Rpi4 with run ahead set is identical to FPGAs (where all the recreated hardware works simultaneously) but on reality this is not the case as the "run-ahead" function is based on this: Run Ahead relies on save states so they need to be clean and fast enough. If a core doesn't support them, this can't work. Using Second Instance mode works around some save states limitation, use it if possible. Calculating several frames in advance means that your machine must be fast enough to run the core at that level of speed. The higher the number of frames you are going to run ahead of emulation, the higher demands it places on your CPU. So FPGA will be always better

[@randomcommenterurl]

With emulation the delay varies not only from core to core, but also from game to game. So to reduce lag the test will need to be done on every game

[@shinobi7423]

MiSTer user: Lag is no longer important🤣

[@gcolombelli]

As a MiSTer user I've got this to say: lag is way more complicated than most people realize. Some MiSTer fanboys do a real disservice to the retro gaming community. I personally don't care which way people play: as long as they're having fun, that's fine. One thing that particularly irks me is how some MiSTer guys will insist that MiSTer is supposedly perfect and never has lag... that may be true with the "right" setup, but often people are far from using the ideal setup for low latency. Just using a subpar Bluetooth controller on the MiSTer vs a good wired controller on an Raspberry Pi 4, the Pi will more often than not give me a more pleasant experience. Another thing people overlook all the time: MiSTer's default settings can easily add one or two frames worth of lag on the HDMI output, if you want to get rid of that, either use the analog output with a CRT or set vsync_adjust=2. And even then it's a good idea to do some testing to make sure your display is actually following using the non-standard timings it will be getting over HDMI this way, as it may just end up doing internally the same kind of scan rate conversion that MiSTer does with vsync_adjust=0. And the final point: not every person is a speed runner / world class player and not every game is super latency sensitive. For some people, having two or even three frames of lag is no big deal, as long as the lag is constant, not variable. Which is why using Bluetooth / wireless controllers is potentially far worse for retro gaming than using emulation instead of FPGA or real hardware.

[@CalaTec]

Un par de cosillas a tener en cuenta. La emulación por software ha avanzado muchísimo y lleva más de 30 años evolucionando con diferentes consolas y muchos desarrolladores. La Mister tiene mucho mérito para el poco tiempo que lleva y que no tiene muchos desarrolladores detrás. Dicho esto, un par de aclaraciones - El lag es diferente en el D-pad que en los botones de acción, en muchas ocasiones. - Run ahead se tiene que configurar por cada juego, ya que no todos los juegos tienen el mismo lag. - Run ahead tiene un límite de 6 frames y hay algunos juegos que pueden tener más de 6 frames de lag. - En Mister no tienes que preocuparte de todo esto. - Una cosa es hablar de números, lo que importa es la sensación al jugar, y el Mister da una sensación de respuesta mejor. Haz la prueba a ciegas con juegos que requieran alta respuesta de reflejos. Ahora bien, es todo esto justificación suficiente para gastar 4 veces más en el Mister, lo más probable es que no para la gran mayoría de personas.

[@lroby74]

Now exists a half price clone Mister from Taki Udon!!

[@gcolombelli]

Very cool setup. Thanks for the translation, although I can understand quite a bit of spanish, I'm far more comfortable with english.

[@CalaTec]

Just a few things. Software emulation has evolved a lot and has more than 30 years on its back with many developers working on different consoles. The Mister FPGA has its own merit for the little amount of time it has and not that many developers. All this said, - Lag is different from D-pad to action buttons in many games. - Run ahead has to be configured on each game, as each game can have different lag. - Run ahead has a maximum limit of 6 frames, some games can have more than 6 frames of lag. - You don't have to worry about any of these on the Mister. - One thing are numbers, and something different is to talk about how games feel. Just do a blind test on demanding games if you don't believe me. Now, is this enough of a justification to pay 4 times more on the Mister, most likely no for the vast majority.

[@railroadism]

run-ahead has a maximum limit of 12 frames on the current version of retroarch. preemptive frames also as a max of 12 frames.

[@RTA_RetroDev]

you have 11 left over

[@ejwgrant]

Is it possible to access these settings via RGB-Pi OS4? I don't see any latency options under Core Options in the menu.

[@RTA_RetroDev]

Its not a core option. You can enable the feature directly form the UI in the emulation options menu

[@ejwgrant]

thanks, not for FB Neo though right? Only certain consoles?

[@NGEvangeliman]

The RGBpi is so impressive.

[@Flyzguy]

I would love to see a comparison with NES, a game like Tetris with only 1 frame to run ahead. I'd expect the mister to win by 1 frame.

[@RTA_RetroDev]

You have a new Short with the comp. No winner, both are perfectly in sync

[@Flyzguy]

@@RTA_RetroDev thanks so much for doing the short! I wonder why the SNES needed two frames of run ahead to match analog while the NES could match with only 1 frame. Is the NES core 16ms faster somehow?

[@Flyzguy]

@@RTA_RetroDev do you have a link to the short? I didn't see it on the channel

[@RTA_RetroDev]

@@Flyzguy SNES is the same. Runs in sync or even une frame ahead of real hardware with only one frame of runhead. Actually in a much more powerful PC has less lag without runahead. I had to remove the short because YT removed the slowmotion recording but I will upload the unedited video today

[@RTA_RetroDev]

@@Flyzguy twitter.com/rtomasal/status/1553167607091662850?s=46&t=u7J06kzKzNMCKk9VaK8ynA

[@mutmut02_]

Thanks for thz translation and aTg for the demonstration. Take care!

[@lroby74]

Mister FPGA, Raspberry PI or original machines: connect them to LCD screens and you will ruin them all in the exact same way!! Aahhahahahah CRT 15 Khz forever!!

[@martinsamuelsson2322]

Very nice demonstration, thank you

[@Aberusugi]

This demonstration does not really do what it claims to do. That's 3 frames of lag in the emulator only for the pi, not counting the Linux kernel, drivers, and everything else.

[@RTA_RetroDev]

The video claims about how to remove the lag introduced by the emulator and how it compares to Mister. The low latency of KMS, USB, etc., is already demonstrated in the side by side comparison where you can see that Pi has same or less input lag

[@d.g.3803]

@@RTA_RetroDev Hay otros factores como el video lag o audio lag.

[@bittbit6791]

Eso no es del todo cierto. De echo la latencia puede ser producida por el mismo sistema. Es bien conocido que muchos juegos tienen retraso originalmente y eso no tiene nada que ver con la latencia que produzca el sistema operativo o el emulador. De echo el emulador no presenta apenas input lag. Por ejemplo el juego Final fight de CPS1 tiene originalmente un retardo de 3 frames y eso esta echo expresamente para que el juego sea mas dificil. Los emuladores te permiten evitar eso y mejorar la experiencia de juego. Si juegas con lag es por que quieres

[@batoceragames4828]

@@RTA_RetroDev You are a boss 🙂

[@theblowupdollsmusic]

@@RTA_RetroDev In the slow-motion final frames, the PI seems a fraction better.

[@ChrisSkitch]

Thank you for the transaction. This is super impressive!

[@vincefred561]

Mister is best ! The Rpi is the past of retrogaming

[@RonaldoNoschang]

Mister is to take your money the easy way, the latency problems are chronic in 8 and 16 bits, it is not in the ps1 emulation that you will feel the input lag, it is in the NES, in the ATARI, in the Master System, your performance as a player drops dramatically, if the mister does not prove it, don't show more latency tests, soon it will be thrown back, because I don't see the tests.

[@theblowupdollsmusic]

They are both really good. Run-ahead levels the playing field. Mister still wins sometimes on sound quality and color.

[@CalaTec]

@@RonaldoNoschang The response is indeed better on the Mister there are videos too, and run ahead, while it is a welcome feature, has to be set per game and it has a limit of 6 frames, which you don't have to worry on the Mister. Not saying traditional software emulation is bad, probably for most of people it will be good enough and you don't have to pay 4 times more for it.

[@retrovisionpass]

@@RonaldoNoschang the only good response, u nailed it!

[@gcolombelli]

Look, I love my MiSTer, but it's all about trade-offs. With the MiSTer you're getting more accuracy, but at a much higher cost. For some people this extra cost may be worth it, but for lots of people, that's gonna be highly debatable. Also worth pointing out that even the MiSTer can have latency due to controller connection method (SNAC vs wired USB vs 2.4GHz dongle vs Bluetooth), configuration settings and display choice. On most games I rarely ever notice issues with playing on the Raspberry Pi instead of the MiSTer, but then, I'm no speedrunner, I'm just an average guy. Even on some latency sensitive games, usually just using a low latency wired controller is enough for me to get by with an emulator running on a Raspberry Pi. The levels that constantly beat me, I'll have to be honest and confess it's purely a skill issue, like on Battletoads... I simply don't have good enough reflexes for some of those levels, even playing on the MiSTer using SNAC and a CRT. Looking at the future, it's not a certainty if FPGA will always have clear advantages. Just look how software emulation has progressed, and now consider how ridiculously difficult it's going to be to develop sixth and seventh generation console cores for FPGA. Is it always going to have benefits over software emulation? I'm not sure. Despite having amazing talent on the FPGA core dev side, it's a much smaller pool of devs than on the software emulation side. Because of this, it's very likely that the gap between MAME and other software emulation and what you can do in FPGA will never be closed. I think software emulation will never be completely displaced by FPGA, even if we get some way more powerful FPGAs at a much lower cost than we have right now. Just due to economies of scale, it's unlikely it'll be able to compete indefinitely with commodity hardware. FPGA, after all, is still "niche" hardware.