MK Party challenges IEC over Zuma's public office bid

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[@MrLechesa]

Mpofu had fun today. It was a great legal show between two of the best in the country. Unfortunately Mpofu wiped the floor with Ngcukaitobi today.

[@Obitseng]

No,In the election court they discuss judgement of concert to findout if Mr zuma qualify to contest for presidential position ⚖️🇿🇦

[@Obitseng]

To my view no,Adv Ngcukaitobi proofed in this case that he is the senior cancel of high court ⚖️🇿🇦

[@MrLechesa]

@@Obitseng Yes. So what's your point?

[@MrLechesa]

@@Obitseng Okay. 🥱

[@sefefotiela3783]

A​@@Obitseng

[@user-wj8vz7bo5c]

Wooooow thanks Mpofu for the lecture MK

[@coolestcutezulufairy]

Mpofu really grilled them

[@millionairesmile1430]

Not really

[@andrewsidelo8221]

I recall when Adv Ngcukaithobi laughed of a point Adv Mpofu made only for Mpofu to school him so much so the judges are leaning with Mpofu 😂😂😂😂😂

[@petermthethwa1052]

Tembeka Ngcukaitobi is a genius ..he is calm and does not get emotional ..

[@MrLechesa]

Is that why he lost?

[@petermthethwa1052]

@@MrLechesa Not really ..losing one matter does not mean he is bad ..I bet you havent even read the judgement ....

[@MrLechesa]

@@petermthethwa1052 it was less of a judgement..and more of an order without reasons.

[@petermthethwa1052]

@@MrLechesa On that I agree with u ..

[@PfanoMafenya]

Adv Ngcuka is not the best, what makes him looks much better is bcos he works for and always win cases for those who already captured the judiciary.

[@siphesihletom4933]

With great respect, that is not a fair assessment. Are you suggesting that there was capturing at the ICJ? I think the proper thing to do is to acknowledge talent where we see it. Politics aside, the man is talented. The fact that he became the first advocate in the country to attain status of a silk before having competed 12 years as a junior advocate lends testimony to that.

[@thuthukanizungu6828]

He may not be "the best", but he is one of the best, but of course he fumbled on this case big time

[@ThamiNdlalane]

It is clear you dont listen to the arguments, instead you are more impressed by court actors Mpofu.

[@molokomack332]

No need to be jealous because of being factional. The man is a genius. He understand the law and never abuses it in his interpretations. Unlike the way Mpofu tries to twist it for the benefit of his clients.

[@PuleLucas-dr2or]

😂😂😂

[@zukile7896]

Ngcukaithobi was schooled here

[@sjaymabaso9391]

Mpofu SC was too much🔥🔥🔥

[@siasmoise661]

The best advocate was displayed here in this case..

[@topsykretts4404]

These judges are disappointing. Mpofu is challenging the Concourt judgment at the IEC court. They must appeal at the Concourt 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@ntuthukomkhize1704]

Lol read 📚 you will understand y

[@lockdownhouse6308]

There’s a reason you only commenting here, and he (Mpofu) is arguing in court 😂😂😂

[@MrLechesa]

@@lockdownhouse6308 🤣🤣🤣 According to this one he's supposed to be the judge. KZbin Law experts are funny

[@thapeloreason4820]

😂😂

[@topsykretts4404]

@MrLechesa you keep saying that.Are you a legal practitioner or you just a troll. Either way, we're entitled to our opinions, your majesty🤷🏾‍♂️

[@siasmoise661]

Ngcukaithobi is trying to be academic. He has missed it this time. Mr Mpofu has a responsibility to re school Ngcukaithobi.

[@sandilehlophe4535]

Are you saying that on the principle of law or just observation

[@ttgooljc6154]

​@@sandilehlophe4535BOTH!

[@siasmoise661]

@@sandilehlophe4535 Both on principle of law and observation. Mind you, Dali Mpofu was never captured from the inception till today.He is truly the people 's advocate. He doesn't run after money in order to sell the people of this country,the poor of the poorest,the marginalized for self personal interest,the South Africans. That is why he is being ill treated in all sphere of the South African courts and Judiciary and also by organizations such as the freedom under law, to mention a few.I hope you can attest to the above statement because you are not a spectator.

[@ratomadise6359]

@Sias U summed it up just right.well articulated!

[@siphesihletom4933]

I miss the days where Mpofu and Tembeka would be on the same legal team and not on opposite sides. That was a powerful collaboration.

[@siasmoise661]

It's unfortunate, the other one chose to be captured because of the love of money hence Dali remains with the people hence his nickname "The people 's advocate ".

[@ratomadise6359]

Aw kante lomfana seka Captured now, I thought he was used strategically to inflitrate the higher echelons of constitution and destroy it from with in.Now U know what is the plan here, hence he is acting disorganised - it is deliberate not by mistake.

[@busikhoza7903]

No, umfana is an architect of Zuma laws.

[@onlinelearning..mathematic1903]

When was it completed?........

[@tlhaketaioe1601]

Very interesting case. Justice will prevail.

[@MrLechesa]

And it did

[@eimediaAfrica]

The Concot created this mess. Adv Thembeka presents a sensible argument. Granting President Zuma this case is the right thing to do, but it challenges the Concot judgement. This matter must be argued in the Concot.

[@zongezilemgcina708]

The remission does not affect the sentence imposed. It only affects the period served.

[@MrLechesa]

What becomes the Ultimate sentence after the period served then?

[@zongezilemgcina708]

The question for today is whether Zuma was sentenced for a period morethan 12 months without the option of a penalty by a competent court. The answer is a resounding YES. This sentence stands. It can only be repelled by another competent court. The President's intervention (remission) was an executive prerogative which served only to reduce the period served - it did not, nor can it ever change a sentence made by the court (judiciary).

[@MrLechesa]

@@zongezilemgcina708 So what is the Ultimate sentence? When did/will the over 12months sentence end??

[@MrLechesa]

@@zongezilemgcina708 What does the word remission in itself mean??

[@zongezilemgcina708]

​@@MrLechesa Your question seems to conflate the FACTS and the LAW. FACTS deal with events or circumstances as they actually occurred, without interpretation or legal analysis. LAW, on the other hand, deals with the application of legal principles, rules, and doctrines to a given set of facts or circumstances. Mr Zuma was sentence to 15 month imprisonment, but he actually spent just 3 month because of the remission. LAW = 15 Months. FACT = 3 Months. However, today's question is a legal question that can only be satisfied by the LAW. And i'm afraid this is where the two counsels part ways. Ngcukaitobi is dealing with the LAW, while Mpofu is dealing with the FACTS.

[@ephraimteboho2852]

Mr Zuma didn't serve full month ,he save only 3 month and he out now he want to be a leader yhooooh law 😢😢😢😢😢 not make sense to poor people real

[@user-gw8pf1mw4l]

Just relax,Zuma is gonna be a president again

[@sicobelelanangolwazi9151]

Whether you like or not, he was your president AND STILL HE IS GOING TO BE YOUR PRESIDENT

[@thobanityhaliti3976]

The reason why Mpofu did not struggle here is because they are challenging the decision of the IEC, Ngcukaithobi is defending hence it seems as if he is struggling but I am impressed with how he delt with the matter.

[@sphengobese3688]

Was that the case when Mpofu was defending the action of IEC in a case of IEC v ANC?😅

[@molefe7972]

Mpofu was brilliant 👏👌

[@motabolemaake5690]

Always brilliant with nonsense

[@molefe7972]

@@motabolemaake5690 nah chief did you follow proceedings?

[@ntuthukomkhize1704]

He did well.

[@sjaymabaso9391]

He was brilliant today👏👏

[@lulamilevambe2834]

He argued complete nonsense as usual

[@sphiwedlamini5592]

Zitobi was disturbed by anger and hatred for Zuma.....and he lost it , Dali took the mop from his head and wipe the floor wit it😅😅😅😅 he interpreted the law by feelings..

[@user-hb1ik6jm2i]

The IEC and AKCK will lose this one. The issue of remission complicates this matter and the Bill of Rights too makes it complicated. I can't wait for the judgement.

[@darrynwilliams9360]

I think the submission that the remission doesn’t change the sentence that was imposed but rather brings it to an end earlier was a sound one on behalf of the IEC. Furthermore he made a sound argument on the interpretation of the constitution when there may be conflicting parts within it. What was imposed is separate to what was served. How a sentence is operationalised shouldn’t affect what was imposed especially if the operational change was effected by the president. To say the sentence is changed or replaced offends the separation of powers. The proclamation was not written in a way that mentioned disturbing the sentence. Creative arguments from Mpofu but I think the IEC took this one.

[@FairhInking]

I'd love to give malema a chance

[@molefe7972]

We in North West and Gautengers are giving him a chance 🥺🤗

[@sicobelelanangolwazi9151]

You'll regret sham

[@lehlogonolonkadimeng4234]

Adv. Mpofu was moping the floor with someone here. Adv. Nqcukaitobi run away

[@kleinboykekana7494]

Whether you like it or not Thembeka is an exceptional counsel

[@archieklaas9484]

Advocate Ngcukaitobi is just hitting snake heads only! No wasted energy! Advocate Mpofu argument is everywhere! In his version, the Sections in the Constitution are in conflict. And he used to much energy.

[@abutilesego2u59]

Mpofu mopped the floor with them ,I still remember when this sluthu lawyer was not captured! Now people will think he's the best because he's winning cases because of judiciary

[@thobanityhaliti3976]

Thembeka Ngcukaithobi is the best... I tell you, if Mpofu was in his position he was going to fume with anger and mixed emotions. These judges are playing hide and seek with Ngcukaithobi

[@bonganiterrencekhoza4603]

But they are asking pertinent questions

[@ndubanesol111]

Mpofu you showed them who is the King of the jungle in yhis game. Ngcukaitobi Palestine phala phala lawyer was tought the interpretation of our law. I liked it when he started stuttering to justice phala phala pay cheque on when did Zuma finished his sentence.

[@sicelodlamini6546]

Amandla Amandla Amandla Viva Viva Viva Mkhonto Wesizwe

[@tshekisotshekiso3065]

Zuma will be on the ballot!

[@hopemajoe2577]

What a small bench never seen this before yoh

[@archieklaas9484]

"The was never a sentence of 3 months!... The sentence was 15 months..." Let us go to the books and check the sentence, it won't say 3 months! It will remain 15 months!

[@millionairesmile1430]

My point precisely

[@MrLechesa]

It's a 3months sentence after Remission. Key word is Remission

[@KingAfrikaTV]

KZbin law experts embarrassing themselves 😅😂

[@capkhule7268]

​@@KingAfrikaTV🤞🤞🤞😂😂

[@ephraimteboho2852]

She never completed he centence but he complete by only 3 month that he take , I love Ntoni yhaaaah that is truth

[@kenanawochristophermashupy4281]

When is the end of 5 years to be calculated Bafo.

[@mbenhle1]

Exactly! How did president Ramaposa, with no power to impose a sentence come and "lift" it prematurely?

[@josephruzendo2245]

Adv Ngcukaithobu knew that’s why he left.😂

[@bhekizizweSibanyoni-dv4oz]

Ayyy xem Mr Ncukaitobi ngyakvuma u r a star. U have tot Mkhulu Mpofu the law.

[@siphesihletom4933]

You were saying??

[@sbonisomabaso7539]

Zuma+brics=future!! Viva MK!!

[@nhlanhlamarvinkhombisa5546]

😂 I truly don't understand, what the Justices are struggling with here, they're arguing things outside of the quoted section here, I even as a layman understand Ngcukaitobi's argument and I'm failing to understand what is it exactly that they're struggling to understand 😂😂

[@Rolihlahla635]

My sentiments exactly. These Justices were not sharp enough or perhaps they wanted to lay bare Tembeka's argument so everyone was on the same page and understood him the same way.

[@thuthukanizungu6828]

I doubt both of you have read the sections that was applied by the IEC here, if you have, you would understand the difficulties that Judges have with nonsense Tembeka is putting forward

[@millionairesmile1430]

The simplest thing to do for them to understand Ncuka's argument is to pull Zupta's criminal record. I bet it will reflect 15 months. And that's what the IEC will also get when they vet zuma

[@thuthukanizungu6828]

Perhaps those defending Tembeka can assist him with an answer to one of the questions he spectacularly failed to answer: If remission is irrelevant and five break after completion of that sentence is relevant, when does Mr Zuma finish his sentence?

[@vincentndhlovu-oc9io]

Does President possess powers to overturn courts' judgment in relation to sentences?

[@MBReader410]

If remission wipes out a sentence then there is no longer an independent judiciary.

[@sabelonkosi3412]

But that is axactly what is does and the constitution allows. It's called previllages.

[@africamymotherland5962]

But it is allowed by the constitution.

[@sicobelelanangolwazi9151]

Noma bengathini, we will VOTE 4 MK

[@bonganimncube377]

50 /50 case

[@lungamabuza5079]

The issue of appeal is contentious...

[@JackpotFernandez]

I will rather let my dog that vanished 2 years ago run before any of MK

[@user-tb4jv3tl4v]

😂😂🤣🤣

[@sjaymabaso9391]

Mpofu SC was brilliant today. I know you guys dont like him. Ngcukaitobi will always be my fav aswell great legal minds

[@kenanawochristophermashupy4281]

Maara Q is wat does remit mean? Does it mean Cancel ❌?

[@angelxotyeni]

Mpofu's rebuttal is very strong

[@khwezikazi_nozi7645]

Great deliberations by both Adv,battle of wits

[@thulisilencweta4788]

Wits vs WSU

[@JusticeNompula-ip8ob]

Layman step aside law is at play here.

[@creativelegal8615]

🤣🤣🤣

[@manapemokobodi2148]

True😂

[@ntfubadlamini7128]

in countries where hanging form part of sentences if that individual get remission ended being not killed the hanging still form part of the sentence while still alive i am puzzled in this argument

[@PAPA777_]

To me the end of 5 years starts from the date he was declared to have completed serving as per last part of Sect. 47(2)e

[@thatoloeto1719]

Section 47(1)(e) of the Constitution: last part reads "A disqualification under this paragraph ends five years after the sentence has been completed." Mr Zuma never completed his sentence so this section cannot be applicable to him, he never completed the sentence it was remitted therefore the disqualification cannot end. Disqualification only ends once the sentence of more than 12 months is completed.

[@vanessa-ek3rj]

From State Capture to Concourt, to Electoral court to civil courts, TEMBEKA's MAJOR PROJECT is PRES JZUMA. Boy is working very hard against PRES IZuma... Make it make sense

[@sinethembagabada265]

Had they left Zuma alone and not pushed for him to go back to prison, the IEC would have won Clean but they were so desperate to jail him they didn't see this coming...

[@ndilekokufa6997]

Adv Mpofu is more powerful in so far as interpretation of statute but Adv Ngcukayithobi is more on the part of application of available law but He cannot be able to break the ground in terms of bringing the new method of the law

[@darrynwilliams9360]

Mpofu has to be creative given the types of cases that he takes 😂😂😂

[@PAPA777_]

Remission only means you wont be serving the sentence, not to say the sentence was not imposed which section 47 focuses on

[@karllethu]

ayikubenzelanga insangu yakho kulekundla

[@ntandoyeningisithole7698]

Real LLB is taught at WSU 😂😂 Wits graduate Mpofu is having the floor wiped with him 😂😭

[@kerengmothoagae2844]

😮😮😂

[@ThembaMayekiso-vk7us]

Jobe uyigqibile uyitye yonke uyawazi umthetho....yilento siyibonayo....8/4/2024

[@user-tb4jv3tl4v]

Respect to WSU from a fellow LLB UNISA

[@daphneykhuzwayo8316]

A law breaker can't be a law maker😂😂😂 interesting remark by Ngcukaitobi!

[@zodwareeby279]

Haibo Ntando where did you get that 😂😂😂

[@motabolemaake5690]

And who is financing this nonsense?

[@ntuthukomkhize1704]

Simply but big question

[@Obitseng]

STATE /TAX PAYERS

[@techknowhow8897]

This Tebeka guy biting his tongue cos he is talking nonsense

[@darrynwilliams9360]

I hope these judges read 36(2) of the constitution. It explicitly says that but for the criteria set out in section (1) OR IN ANY OTHER PROVISION OF THE CONSTITUTION no law may limit any right… that seems pretty clear to me

[@PuleLucas-dr2or]

Dali Mpofu hardly wins against Thembeka.

[@MBReader410]

Perhaps SA would benefit from a ceremonial third chamber to keep former presidents and others busy in their old age.

[@28ewingstreet80]

2nil 3 is loading Nxamesto the true patriot

[@mbenhle1]

I am so interested in THE INTERVENTION BY THE PRESIDENT in the 15month sentence,😮

[@ParallelNews-4u]

Dear Commentor. We the chosen, to represent the RC Readers Community, wish to kindly ask that your comments be at least 2 pages long. We have petitioned before and won the vote for the encouragement of new Commenters. So if you Commenters can commit to our request for more reading magic, atleast two pages long, then our next existence is guaranteed. Blessings from the Readers Community ❤

[@Obitseng]

AFRICANS:As mentioned earlier Mr Zuma don't qualified to contest for presidential position following outcome or judgement of concert and again he served his presidential terms as we speaks he receive all presidential benefits ⚖️🇿🇦

[@sicobelelanangolwazi9151]

Under which party konje?

[@Adjudicator246]

Luke 3, verses 1 to 3. 2:19:02 The man even even quoted the bibble as his defence.

[@capkhule7268]

And won

[@dupleixparerenyatwa9616]

Zuma must be declared eligible to contest. Was Mandela a convicted person before or not. So, its the people who will determine his worth not some intelligent agents. ZUMA MUST BE ALLOWED TO CONTEST THE ELECTIONS.

[@sicobelelanangolwazi9151]

Some ppl are so stupid, do they understand the Zuma bring the BRICS Nxxx ngathi ngingababamba ngezimpama aba again i MK Nx they dont think 4 fure nx

[@kabelomokobene5864]

I salute SC Mpofu he burried his Learned friend on that remission..#Salute#Dali

[@gringowotshela7745]

Mpofu is a clown. He thinks he’s addressing the Zuma rally full of Zuma’s friends. Judges will be quoting Ngcukatoibi during the ruling not Psalms or Luke. This is sad😢😢😢

[@KingAfrikaTV]

Shut up lerete you don't know what you're talking about

[@gordonlefine18]

🤣🤣🤣bye bye.

[@siphesihletom4933]

Mpofu won, court ruled in his favour. What do you say now?

[@sandilehlophe4535]

Even the court finds in favour of Zuma in this particular case. The IEC would still have to exclude mr Zuma on the basis of Section 88(2) and MK wants to challenge that they would need to apply directly to the Concourt for a declaration of invalidity or to have the the section declared unconstitutional

[@mandlabaloyi3113]

Sanlam

[@millionairesmile1430]

What I saw and realized in this court is that; Our Judges only know how to convict and pass sentence. They don't know what goes beyond that. That goes to our lawyers as well. I am greatly disappointed by my favorite Advocate Ncukayithobi. These lawyers, judges included, don't know that a remission of a sentence doesn't mean that your criminal records will reflect differently from the initial sentenced term. Remission is more like a parole, because if you can be caught again before the lapse of your initial jail term, you will definitely loose the remission and serve the full jail sentence. Zuma's criminal records will never state 3 months, but the 15 months. Mpofu knows it, but he's taking an advantage of the Judges' and the IEC lawyers' ignorance.

[@topsykretts4404]

Same observation. However, AdvocateNcukayithobi presented compelling arguments. The focus should be if there was a sentence. Time served is irrelevant in this case as 5 years must elapse for eligibility. This is not the platform to appeal the Concourt judgement

[@user-tb4jv3tl4v]

But then thats what Ncukaythobi was arguing in the courts to a point where he even became frustrated. I mean he pointed relevant cases that apply to the matter where judgements have been passed down. he even mention that the executive does not have the power to exercise the duties of the judiciary or imposing sentences and his right. just because the president gave him remission it does not mean that he changed the course of the sentence, it is only the judiciary that can exercise such power, his sentence still remained as 15 months despite remission because that is what the concort gave a judgement on and what imposed on Jacob Zuma. Dali is just taking advantage like you said

[@user-tb4jv3tl4v]

@@topsykretts4404 exactly

[@MrLechesa]

KZbin lawyers 🤣🤣🤣

[@MrLechesa]

Remission is not Parole. 🤣🤣

[@locomotivez5297]

Yoh😅

[@mengistok]

Mpofu the cursed hand of zuma. Everywhere it goes its defeat after drfeat.😂

[@siphesihletom4933]

You were wrong. He won

[@user-qu1tl3kh3k]

Mpofu will not win against Thembeka never

[@Obitseng]

👍

[@sjaymabaso9391]

He is going on this one

[@siasmoise661]

​@@sjaymabaso9391💯 agree with you. Ngcukaithobi turn to be personal in his argument hence he has lost it. All institutions are under the guidance of the president.

[@siphesihletom4933]

I bet you guys have swallowed your words because Mpofu won, the judgement is out.

[@user-qu1tl3kh3k]

I did bro

[@bonganimncube377]

Koda Mpofu with upper hand 🙈

[@sihletngcobo]

It’s really not. Mpofu clearly dismantled the IECs case. Especially on the point of final sentence being 3 months by reason of Remission.

[@andrewsidelo8221]

​@@sihletngcoboalso on the bias and wording of the relevant selection. The concourt said they are deviating from the norm and did not give Zuma a chance to appeal, the electoral act doesnt adress such event. So which clause of the law are we to rely on and how is it tested to be fair. But based on these judges questioning of Mpofu when making simple points ai doubt he will win this one. Ill be suprised if he indeed wins. I fail to see why it seems that issues of recusal are ignored the higher one goes yet we are expected to abide by recusal in the face of a perception of bias. Next time i will quote parliament and this case when i appear before the CCMA😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@phineasmakhani]

Upper hand in law ?be serious.

[@topsykretts4404]

IEC cannot overrule Concourt judgement. Was there a sentence? Did 5 years elapse? Case closed. This is not a platform to appeal 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@iNkunziMalangaOnke]

@@topsykretts4404 👀 1:08:00

[@PAPA777_]

Remission according to me doesn't take away the conviction and sentence which were imposed, but only reduced the serving part. Then since he completed serving when he was given remission, then he will qualify for Parliament only after 5 years from date of remission.

[@siasmoise661]

An advocate not being able to understand the simple meaning of remittance. Wow.

[@manapemokobodi2148]

You think you know better than them

[@siasmoise661]

@@manapemokobodi2148 You have missed the point.

[@user-qu1tl3kh3k]

Advocate Thembeka is a beast man even Mpofu knows that he will not win against this guy

[@siphesihletom4933]

What's your view on this now that Mpofu won

[@phumlamazibuko3003]

Yeah your beast 😭😭

[@Rolihlahla635]

Ngcukayitobi's legal brilliance remains unmatched by the incoherent Dali Mpofu😅

[@MrLechesa]

Doesn't seem like the law and judges agree with this.

[@siphesihletom4933]

Well, Mpofu won, what do you say now?

[@thandowadada9067]

Ngcuka knows his story

[@MrLechesa]

Not this time around

[@levymamabolo3192]

ZUMA IS AND HIS SUPPORTERS ARE SELFISH THE KNOW HE DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE IN PARLIAMENT HE ALREADY HAD HIS CHANCE AND FAILED DISMALLY

[@langelihlekubheka3415]

😂😂😂 according to you right

[@levymamabolo3192]

@@langelihlekubheka3415 ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE HAS HIS /HER OPINION IT ALL DEPENDS WHAT YOU THINK 🤔 BUT THE TRUTH SHOULD BE TOLD

[@abelradebe9644]

What makes you think Ramaphosa deserves to be the president.

[@levymamabolo3192]

@@abelradebe9644 HE IS A VISIONARY AND INTELLECTUAL PERSON

[@sicobelelanangolwazi9151]

Hahaha chest pain will kill you😂😂😂