Mono vs. Stereo vs. 4CM vs. 5CM vs. Wet/Dry vs. Wet/Dry/Wet

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Episode 1: Mono vs. Stereo vs. Wet/Dry vs. 4CM vs. 5CM vs. Wet/Dry/Wet //HOSTS// Grant Klassen (Goodwood Audio) YT - @Goodwood Audio IG - instagram.com/goodwoodaudio Brian Omilion (Omilion Audio) YT - @Omilion Audio IG - instagram.com/omilionaudio Mason "The Rig Doctor" Marangella (Vertex Effects) YT - @Vertex Effects IG - instagram.com/vertexeffects Watch ALL "Chairmen of the Boards" Episodes HERE: kzbin.info/aero/PLVBlGzH3BjrvO_yPcGCMZXDPpp2pWczR8

[@house-o-twang]

Thank you, learned plenty from this discussion.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@house-o-twang Thanks so much!

[@JimCardoza]

Big fan of wet dry wet and have been so thankful to both Brian and Mason for their help with my WDW rig

[@VertexEffectsInc]

So glad it was helpful!

[@ryanwhite5482]

Something I thought of while watching the rest of this - for those who play with mono FOH or mono ears, or even the scenario where they wont give you more lines - I used to mix in my own ears using something like a Rolls Mini-Mix VI. My setup was just stereo but it could be expanded on to WDW possibly if your FOH can give you at least 2 lines. For my DI rig with all amp sims from an HX Stomp, I would run into a stereo DI box for FOH. Then on the DI Thru, I would connect left and right to a channel of the Rolls Mini-Mix VI. The stereo feed from my personal monitor system or monitor engineer would be connected to another channel of the Rolls. I would then turn myself off in the personal monitor or ask the monitor engineer to do so and mix my guitar in to the rest of the band mix using the Rolls. This lets me hear myself in stereo regardless of if I send FOH mono or stereo. When running 1 real amp, I create an HX Stomp patch with no processing on L and a modelled amp and cab on R. I would let my real amp with a microphone go through to the personal monitors or engineer and pan that feed 100% L. The Right side would go into the DI (or sometimes direct into the Rolls Mixer if I wasn't sending a Right side to FOH) and I would pan that 100% R. Then I'd just balance the two and I'm hearing myself in stereo with a real amp and a modelled amp. I did this for years at my home church which was mono FOH and only wanted 1 line from me.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for sharing this!

[@jacobpittman1996]

Thank you, guys. This was a great collaboration. I look forward to more. Mason, always studied up! Grant, always ready for a dad joke. Mr. Omilion, worth every penny!!! (Ok, priceless; glad to know you’re near DFW.)

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@JimCardoza]

I’m so happy to see this conversation happen

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Heck yea!

[@omilionaudio]

❤️

[@jash500]

This was validating to listen to. I’m the only lead guitar player at a small church that uses a non-digital board and mono setup. I have an OBNE signal blender (3-to-1) that goes to FOH. - Ch1 is the “dry”: POD Go FX loop out, placed right after the IR\cab block - Ch2: strymon big sky, kill-dry mode, fed by Ch1 - Ch3: L mono out of the POD Go, but the delay block is @ 100% mix so you’ll ONLY hear delay from this output (essentially a “poor man’s kill-dry”) Phew! 😓 I should have just got an HX stomp, but I was new to digital modeling in 2020, and the POD Go was the most reasonable option at the time for a working Dad at a small church. I’m actually really happy with it for the time being.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for watching!

[@jloiben12]

One thing you can do to make a wet-dry setup more feasible from an “amount of stuff you need to bring” is use an amp with a stereo fx return like the JC 40. Send the dry to one side and the wet to the other. Not “ideal” but it gets a good sound and with less gear

[@VertexEffectsInc]

That's a good idea, the easiest way however is to use a Cab Zeus or stereo power amp/cab sim as the wet power amp and cabinet and mic so you just feed those to your interface or the mixing board and you're just taking one amp for the dry.

[@johnou9001]

great content from three well respected builders. even better is how well the discussion was organized.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks John! Super appreciate that!

[@fixpedalboards1969]

To Brian’s point about trying things KZbin’s compression alters the sound of absolutely everything so regardless of how good are crap it sounds on here you have to hear it with your own ears to make a valid assessment

[@omilionaudio]

Indeed!!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

True story!

[@DrGregWeisswasserND]

Super informative talk guys. Thanks. I run wet effects through a Headrush mx5 in the parallel effects loop in my Amp1 and just blend it in mono to one speaker. Sounds great and can pull in and out with my volume pedal.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for sharing!

[@jedininjaknight8733]

Great discussion, and lots of options for my Ceriatone serial passive effects loop that I struggle to use. Really liking this series.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Glad it was helpful!

[@leftymike5625]

Looking forward to this series.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

It’s already live, have a listen

[@adamtroy4526]

Such a great video! Thanks for sharing and putting it together. Currently building WDW with 1 Cab. Master mute via tuner, volume pedal for swells before ABY switcher with a mute switch for dry channel. Love good routining and flexibility it gives for dynamics etc. Single guitarist at our church so plenty of ability for different setups. This vids got me thinking about parrallel for wet effect as wet are still in series. Learnt so much from all three of you guys individually. Appreciate it! Much closer to tone city because of it haha Respect from AUS 🫡

[@johnschoppmusic]

Great work Guys!!! Thank you for all your knowledge!! ~cheers

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for watching!

[@tomasfarr3446]

Hi Mason, Phenomenal video mate loved it. I was curious if you knew if John Mayer does a wet/dry/wet setup with his 3 amp setup? TIA

[@roverer109]

Is this a master class or what? Thanks guys!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

🥰🥰🥰

[@johnou9001]

so many ways to do WDW. another way to do WDW is to take the feed from the effects send of your dry amp and then send that to your wet rig. from the last unit of the wet rig go to a good tube power amp which is like the power section of a guitar amp (i had a mesa 50/50) and then to go to two guitar cabs (i used bogner 112s with V30s). great points about the dry amp being critical and then feeding the wet side into a simulator like the HX stomp. as grant mentioned you don’t need to have two other amps miked up for wet.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Yes, you can use the SEND as your Line out, the only trouble is that you don't have compensation on many amps to adjust the level hitting the effects. Sometimes I suggest people get a Scott Henderson Subtle Volume Control which is a 25K pot that you can put in series with your FX SEND. You can use this to knock down the level to not clip any of the wet effects if they can't take line level. 10K audio taper pot would be more ideal, but this will work nonetheless. You could also put a buffer in it if you didn't have an active loop.

[@tomrollison5496]

I run W/D/W .If I heard correctly Mason said that Michael Landau and others would split the signal before the dry amp so the clean guitar signal is all that would hit the wet. I just had to try that. And it's interesting. I found that the modulation effects were easier to hear. On the other hand there is a bit more "distance" , or I guess you'd call it separation, between the wet and dry. The wet is never distorted so in a way it made me want to dial in more gain on the dry. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. Going to try some more sounds tomorrow. I'm kind of leaning towards it even though it means yet again rewiring the pedal board. Arghhh. Is it worth it? That's the question.

[@VertexEffectsInc]

They didn't split the signal in the way that most people think is wet/dry (a true wet dry wet system is pretty different than just throwing a splitter between your wet and dry effects). In the classic rigs, they either used 1) a line out box on the dry amp that is connected between the amp and speaker that taps off the output transformer or a line out built into the dry amp like on a Soldano SLO that feeds the wet effects or 2) mic'd the dry amp and fed a mic pre with the dry and then fed the mic pre to the processing effects in the rack. The separate happens because doing it this way puts the wet and dry in parallel and the wet effects normally in the classic rigs are all 100% wet (return only) and use a mixer to blend in the dry signal back into the wet cabinet so you can really get some studio quality tones in a live context.

[@GuitarBard96]

so with an amp that’s on the edge of breakup and using drive pedals to push it, do you generally want to use the effects loop?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

If the amp is dirty, you want to use the loop for your wet effects.

[@davidjoel111]

Video idea, tutorial on how to do wet/dry/wet rig with digital amps (ACS, iridium, kemper, helix)

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Yes!

[@hbtubman]

i discovered a boss processor and after doing studio recording, trying to reproduce the sound i remembered as a guy your age to sound like Jimi or Stevie to lit or blue Oster cult , got the se-70 and it recommended a mixer, so a Yamaha line mixer mv 802 that had send in two setting and volume as well as return mix in stereo or pan letting me mix how much wet or dry I pulled from my first amps return with db - 10 or plus 4, and THEN INTO THE THE STERIO XLR RETURN TO AMP RETURN AND TO A MARSHAL FOR RIGHT ,AND A VOLUME pedal ON THE MIXER THAT REACTED SO SMOTH TO ALWAYS BE AS A FINGER ON MY GUITAR POT, BUT TRING FOR THE FIRST TIME AFTER PLAYING 50 YEARS TO DO COVERS. THE BOARD WENT TO CLEAN AMP,BLACKSTAR AND THE MIXER THEN TO PROSSESSOR RETURNING BALLANCED XLR TO BOTH AMPS, THE OLD ROLAND FINALY DIED,AND TRYING A HELIX ,THOUGH ITS POSSIBULE TO CONFIGURE TO DO THE SAME ,AS FAR AS RECREATING A STUDIO DRY WET SOUND WAS INCREDIBULE FOR SEVEN YEARS LIVE ,BUT THE USED LINE MIXER NO EQ JUST PAD AND TWO LINE MIC IPUTS THE REST I THINK FOR USING WITH A DRUM SET TO MIX, BUT ILL NEVER BE AS Comfortable ON STAGE AS THIS WAY OF USING A PEDEL BOARD AND THE STUDIO Quality effects all connected with balanced magomi patches you guys are fantastic, and your explaining what i found by chance and using my ear and the now available internet made me fell good i had the some instincts after reading on line of what you guys teach so many ,I'm still trying to clean up my power and signal lines on my board , but ive always known keep power and signal as far away from each other and the buffer recommendations changed my tone a lot, glad to here my wireless ,a good two antennas' and the guys who line six bought out to own the rights had a buffer in it, didn't know that ,you guys are a gift to the crazy world this has become, I started with a high watt and a space echo in the seventies

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for sharing!

[@STRATMAN1969]

After years of trial and error, I'm pretty happy with my Moist/Damp Amp set up ; ) Would love any prognosis you could give in the way of choosing a treatment between musicomlab MK-VI or RJM PBC/10 I guess I really wish you would do another in depth video of big switchers i.e. how many loops ?can you split stereo loops ?how many midi pedals can you plug in ,how to run a chain before, and after?how to change up the pedal order?, and How to program it for wet/dry ? as always love your content . Thanks so much, your patient, patient .

[@VertexEffectsInc]

They're both great. If you run Mono the Muiscomlab has more loops and they can be re-ordered. The PBC10 can't be re-ordered.

[@denitoch]

Hey guys! Question, i’m running a peavey 6505mh in the fx loop of the fx stomp and it is very noisy, is it a way to fix that? Or is there a problem with the amp? Thank you so much again! Great podcast!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

What's an FX Stomp? You're running in the loop of your 6505? I'm confused on the order here and the products in question.

[@denitoch]

@@VertexEffectsInc i’m sorry, an “HX Stomp”, and i’m running the amp in the loop but it gets super noisy

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@denitoch so you have the HX Stomp running into the front of the amp and into the FX Loop of the amp?

[@denitoch]

@@VertexEffectsInc i’m doing 4CM and I have the amp as an fx block in the HX Stomp

[@VertexEffectsInc]

@@denitoch normally you'd have your pre effects chain (running into the front of the amp) and hitting an FX Send Block going of of the send of the HX Effects into the input of your 6505. Then you'd go from your FX send on your 6505 to a return block in the HX Stomp on the return of the HX. Then you'd put your wet processing after the return block and then feed the output to the 6505 FX Loop Return.

[@hudsonw3978]

This was great! What was that lick in the intro? I wanna learn it lol

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Tim Marco, look him up on IG!

[@house-o-twang]

Why are so many stereo pedals mono-in? Doesn't that limit you to one pedal like it?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Typically these pedals are ones that are designed to start the stereo split, e.g. modulation. You can also use a mixer to get these in full stereo if needed if you have multiple mono in/stereo out pedals.

[@house-o-twang]

@@VertexEffectsInc That makes sense, thank you.

[@icebob8555]

How about a solo looper pedal board? Maybe some Guests like this there are many different kinds of rigs thanks great show

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Thanks for watching and the suggestion!

[@ralphhiggs5803]

Yep separation factor is badass. Memorable performances are dished up by the guitar player who is the band with wet dry wet. For others they need to be in the pocket with a single amp, unfortunately not running modulated ambient time based stuff in parallel. Parallel rules with all these modern pedals. Period. Pedals in series? Come on!

[@taylorwyatt333]

How do you set up the the 5 cable method utilizing the Helix LT and two half stacks?

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Guitar into Helix, Helix Send to Amp 1 input, Amp 1 send to Helix Return, Helix Out Left to Amp 1 return, Helix Out Right to Amp 2 return. You'll need to put a send and return block before the "send" to amp 1 and a "return" after the Amp 1 send to the Helix Return.

[@taylorwyatt333]

@@VertexEffectsInc as opposed to the single block of fx send and return, I'll need to do an individual send block and an individual return block? this is what will solve my lack of sound on the second amp?

[@taylorwyatt333]

@@VertexEffectsInc the send and return block setup is where I'm getting lost here. They have two options, a send/return FX Loop block, or individual send and return blocks. How do I know where to put the return block? You said after Amp 1 but what does that mean seeing that the amp is not a block but a real amp I'm routing to. I'm so confused which is extremely frustrating because I have successfully set up the 4 cable method, but using the FX Loop 1 block as opposed to the individual send and return blocks, so how can figure that out but be absolutely lost with this?

[@brianmueller5483]

Destination tone town! 🤠🤣

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Giddy up

[@bwakeman]

I’d love to see Dan Steinhardt in here too!

[@VertexEffectsInc]

Sure, ask him!

[@ralphhiggs5803]

Three amps a guitar, giant pedalboard and some other stuff will fit in a little car. Geez snowflakes stop all the wining! Its worth it! Well worth it. Solid state for wet is all you need if you have awesome pedals coupled with a badass dry amp. Game over!