American Reacts to Open Prisons in Finland

[@CoL_Drake]

The fact that a museum prison in Finland that shows how barbaric it was still looks more modern then most us jails is crazy

[@panibo]

A little bit of context to this video. Most murderers do not get to serve their sentence in an open prison. Only those who show willingnes to change and are deemed non-violent and low flight risk get there. For most inmates who were convicted of violent crimes can get to an open prison only at the end of their sentence as a "halfway home" type of approach. Most inmates at an open prison are those who commited financial crimes.

[@timmokoo5679]

Yea it is not mentioned in the video but I doubt this guy started his sentence in an open prison either.

[@kasubarukun22]

​@@timmokoo5679not a matter of doubt but a fact, just like the comment earlier stated

[@infinitedeath1384]

It doesn't matter if a murderer can change or not. They still murdered and took away someone's life. With a system that doesn't punish murderers for their actions, the victim gets no justice.

[@daedalron]

@@infinitedeath1384 The job of prison is not to get revenge, it's to make sure there will be no more crime from that person in the future. And on that matter, the nordic system works WAY better than the US system, with a 20-30% inmates committing a crime again, where in the US it's closer to 65-70%. Also, as others have mentioned, open prisons are for inmates who have shown they could get rehabilitated. Not all murderers are as dangerous to society. You can't really treat a serial killer the same way as a woman who murdered her husband who was abusing her or abusing their kids, for example. One is a definite security risk if left in the open, the other, not so much.

[@likingraccoons]

@@daedalron These statistics on this show are twisted . People re-offending and going back to prison within 5 years after release has been about 60 % for a looong time. So 3 out of 5 will re-offend and go back to jail. And this is a fact, I just checked this information from official statistics of Rikosseuraamusvirasto. Also, the probability of re-offending is higher with young population -- so the number is higher if you look at the statistics based on age groups. And lastly, the more often you have been to prison, the most likely you will return to prison. So the group of people that serve 2-3 sentences and still not learning their lesson will re-offend and return to prison with 85 - 90 % certainty.

[@t.a.k.palfrey3882]

State prisons in the US, including those for defendents held on remand pending trial, are mostly run as commercial operations. There is a huge corporate interest in having greater numbers incarcerated. To put it simply, imprisonment is a business in the US. So, there is no incentive to rehabilitate. The more released inmates re-offend, the more prisoners there are, and the greater the corporate profits.

[@MrSinclairn]

Blatant misuse of the 13th Amendment.😖

[@t.a.k.palfrey3882]

@@MrSinclairn Yes, the US is the finest nation on Earth when it comes to disingenuous catachresis of constitutional amendments.

[@Crimson50]

Having those prisoners free and working jobs would generate way more wealth and stimulate the economy better than them being in prison and the government only paying a few companies for "housing" them. So no, most top coporations would prefer more workers out in the world, than for a few select prison companies making money. Same with weapons contracts, war is only good for business for a few select companies and very very bad for business for most

[@Crimson50]

now I would still say that private prissons are porbably not good lol, but I assume you are implying by "There is a huge corporate interest in having greater numbers incarcerated. To put it simply, imprisonment is a business in the US. So, there is no incentive to rehabilitate. " that they are paying off politicians to advocate for laws that would get more prisoners in? Most republicans in America probably don't give two shits about prisoners and only think of prison as punishment, not rehabilitation. You do not need corporation brainwashing for that. Most people who vote also, simply are not ex-cons, do not have the risk to be a con and don't give a single shit about it. young people simply do not vote that much.

[@Pucky71]

It always pleases me to see how self-critical Joel is (as a citizen of the USA in relation to his country). You see a lot of Americans who simply claim that "the USA is the best country in the world" and classify criticism as hate and don't think about it. Scandinavia is a (successful) pioneer in criminal justice even in Europe. I completely agree with the Scandinavians. I am against long prison sentences, I am against simply keeping people in cages. Yes, serious criminals need to be removed from society, but you need to recognize their problems, work with them on the problems, and then welcome them back into society. This is the obligation of a society that has democracy, freedom and human dignity written into its constitution. But as you can see in Scandinavia, it also helps fight crime.

[@unknownentity8256]

How is that light sentencing working for Sewden? Record high murder rates this year. Pretty common for the gangs to use grenades in public areas.

[@Herr_U]

@@unknownentity8256 ....and a quick look at the statistics say... per capita about as bad as back in 1998 (or 1972) (in absolute numbers it is a record - yes, but the population is also about 18% bigger now (pop 8.8mil (8.1mil) vs 10.4mil)) (and no, 1998 isn't the worst per-capita year for sweden, that is 1990) (btw, most commonly used explosives for illicit use are of commercial origin).

[@nikoa97]

Finland is not in scandinavia mate.

[@mega_jonne1546]

​@@unknownentity8256immigrants...

[@dbtest117]

@@unknownentity8256 Mixing things up much?

[@jakobrosenqvist4691]

When you stop thinking about prison sentences as revenge and start focusing on maximizing overall societal benefit then suddenly the Nordic way makes much more sense.

[@ermine82]

You don't even need to give up the revenge thinking - just refine the definition of revenge: If these people enjoy doing bad things - "force" them to do good and meaningful things in the prison system. They'll definitely suffer and hate it at first, but it'll end up being a win win to everyone in the end.

[@tmas47]

@@ermine82 Justice is not about the revenge.

[@danijobi]

It's always interesting to hear Americans talk about prisons. Even with you, who I got to know as a very enlightened and open-minded individual, the first instinct is about punishment: Yeah, but is it fair? What if the crime is really bad? He's a murderer, shouldn't he... suffer more? There's always this notion of "yeah, but SOME people should just be locked up and the key thrown away". I don't mean this in an insulting way, if you focus on retribution, this instinct kinda makes sense. I think in Europe the instinct is more about society as a whole - yeah, this guy has committed a horrible crime. But the victim's family doesn't get any more closure if the murderer is treated really badly and rots in prison - on the contrary, we all suffer the consequences when someone gets released that received no counseling, no education, no chance to be productive and integrate on the outside. This will only lead to more crime. Also: 99% of prisoners, even murderers, aren't irredeemable monsters. They are no Charles Mansons or James Bond villains. They are people who got cornered, psychologically, emotionally, economically, and made horrible decisions. So we take them away from their life, their friends, their family. THAT is the punishment. And make no mistake: it's really hard. We don't have to pile on. We don't have to mistreat them or exploit them or neglect them or in any way make their life even worse than that. There's a great documentary about Swedish prisons here on KZbin, and there is prison director saying something very smart: "This guy will get out after five, ten, fifteen years. He will be someone's neighbour. We should try to treat and educate everyone in such a way that we wpould feel comfortable to have him as our neighbor when he comes out." It's not abut retribution or punishment. The bad deed doesn't get undone by further cruelty. It's abut people. An the people they have to live with.

[@pirttila2729]

Finland has been ranked the happiest country in the world six times in a row. Everything is not perfect here either but better than in many other places.

[@susannebrunberg4174]

Certainly not the happiest country in the world! If you believe that bs, you haven't been anywhere else.

[@vihreelinja4743]

Mostly due to looooong winters.@veipurr

[@oskar6747]

@@vihreelinja4743 And because vihreelinja is still illegal because of the fucking American war on drugs. Hard to stay positive, if you have to self medicate adhd and then you are accused of being an addict, when in reality you don't even drink alcohol and want to stay sober.

[@MarcLucksch]

“Give people a second chance..” I think the problem is that many people in the US don’t even get a first chance

[@tisketisja5528]

No the problem in America is that people in prison are treated like animals. And then when they act like animals and every one is surprised about it

[@infinitedeath1384]

The person who's life got stolen away didn't get a second chance. Murderers definitely don't deserve a second chance.

[@KaregoAt]

​@@infinitedeath1384 That person doesn't get un-murdered by mistreating the murderer though. Whatever the crime, isn't it a net positive that the person goes on to be better and commits no further crimes? Unless we're locking people away for life, which is not productive and instead costs society a lot of money, these people will get out at some point. I'd rather they leave prison with a good chance of not committing crimes anymore.

[@infinitedeath1384]

@@KaregoAt No, it doesn't. I'm not saying to mistreat him. I am saying that the murderer should be locked up for life. The person they murdered doesn't get to live out their life, so why should they be able to? Keeping a murderer in prison for life is justice, and it is not mistreatment.

[@JeremyParker072]

Thanks for the video Joel. I have been a senior manager and psychologist in a large prison in Australia and what we know about what works for rehabilitation is not what is put into practice due to the lack of political will. Prisons are not vote winners (except when being heavy on crime and punishment). Congratulations on Finland on taking on best practice.

[@santerikorteoja638]

I live in Laukaa. My psyche class took a trip to this prison where we met Matti. He gave us a talk about his life, before and during prison, also touched on what he wants to do after. He was an amazingly polite man, answerd all my questions fairly and honestly. And I asked a bunch haha. We had an exchange student from Ohio with us. When I asked Matti what he did to go to prison, and he answered that he murdered someone. The whole class fell silent and uneasy. I was translating for our American friend and she felt the change in mood. Asked me what just happened, and I told her that Matti said he is in prison for murder. I tell you, she did not believe me :D. She taught that I was pranking her, and once she realized I was serious she kinda paniked. It was a really interesting trip. But even tho in Finland the prison strutcture is like this, normal everyday people are not all for it. For example some of my class were scared to realize that we had an open prison so close to where we live. But most see that the positives out weigh the possible negatives.

[@santerikorteoja638]

Oh yeah bonus fun fact. When we were leaving I wanted to shake Mattis hand, and so I did. I caught him at the doorway before he exited. I told him that I apreciated his honesty, and wished him well in creating a future for himself. The funny part was that once I left Matti stayed at the doorway, and unbeknownst to me, he shook everyones hand after. I got so much shit for making my classmates shake a murderes hand haha :D. This was funny but I was also sorry, I understand that facing a man like this, however kind and open is a lot different as a small woman than a man my size.

[@Cr6t4lAm3th1st]

Im so jealous

[@TijanaSiljak-k4t]

Can you tell me Matti real name ? 😁😊

[@paulleach3612]

The average Finnish prisoner has more freedom than the average working class American. ...ironic considering how the U.S. boldly pronounces itself as the "Land of the Free".

[@nagi1337]

No they don't. Average prisoner in Finland is sitting in his cell behind locked door for 23 hours a day. He gets out of his cell for 1 hour to exercise and possibly 2x30 min to eat if it is one of the lower security prisons. If he is one of the lucky ones, he gets work appointed by the prison, like helping in the kitchen, washing the prisoners' clothes or making firewood in a warehouse on prison premises.

[@sicknessnfilth1616]

@@nagi1337 cell doors are usually open for 8 hour per day. Though recently the time spent in cell has increased due growing prison population and lack of professional jail guards.

[@Ozzilein]

In most, if not all European countries, "life" does actually not mean spending the rest of your life in prison. In Germany, being sentenced to "life in prison" means serving a minimum of 15 years; with a clean prison record, the remainder of the sentence can be on probation, meaning the prisoner is slowly re-introduced into society. Therefore, the whole idea of the prison system in Europe is rehabilitation, not punishment: Prisoners are encouraged to train for a job, which is why most prisons have workshops with instructors and certificate courses. Inmates can train to become certified electricians, carpenters, bakers, cooks, accountants, etc. Offenders who were 21 years or younger at the time of the crime cannot be sentenced to more than 10 years, regardless of the crime, as the idea is that they are still in their formative years and can be "changed" by education and social support. Criminals who are considered a threat to society (serial killers, serial rapists, extremely violent offenders) are sentenced to "life plus subsequent preventive detention" (= high-security prison with mental health facilities), but this has to be decided by the court at the time of sentencing and is very rare: Of the 45000 inmates in German prisons, only 600 (!) are deemed to be too dangerous to ever be released again.

[@cayreet5992]

If you get life in Germany, you can actually insist on staying in prison for life, but you're not forced to. Rudolf Hess actually chose not to leave the prison again when he could have, but it was his choice.

[@Ozzilein]

@@cayreet5992 I don't believe that this statement is correct. Hess continuously fought to be released and by the 1970s had the support of several German parties and church organisations. However, he was not allowed to leave prison due to the resistance of the Soviet Union (he was sentenced as a war criminal under "Allied law" in 1947, so the Allied countries had a veto right). Apparently, Gorbachev was finally willing to have Hess released in 1987 but Hess died in that year.

[@ratflail215]

Yeah, in Finland life in prison technically can be your whole life but in reality you get free after seen rehabilitated. Usually this is around 12-14 years.

[@Crimson50]

@@ratflail215 I think the maximum is 20something years, no?

[@ratflail215]

@@Crimson50 Nah. Life in prison here is indefinite and you only get that for extremely brutal murder usually involving torture of the victim. It can be life but no one has had to serve that in recent history.

[@FoxyGuyHere]

I used to live right beside the Open prison of Hämeenlinna. Sometimes when I walked to school I watched how the prisoners were farming in the field next to it.

[@halmond8713]

One of the differences between Finland and US is that in here the life sentence is not literally life long as it is in US. Longest anyone has stayed on prison in here has been 25 years. Normally the life sentence is approx. 14 years. So there are maybe bit bigger interest to rehabilitate those people because they will come back to society and they can end up being your neighbour. Also you have to work yourself before you are allowed to transfer into the open prison. It's not like you are granted access to one right after you have gotten sentence from serious crime like one that he had done. We have also our high security prisons where they are not as free to leave the prison. The thing that I like in our system is that even if you have done something that lands you into the prison, you are still treated like human being. Also you are offered to get the help that you need, since most of those who end up there are there because alcohol related crimes and that usually have more serious trauma behind it. So I do hope that they get help to solve those issues since that will help them get back to normal life. Same is with the education. If they are able to use the time in prison with working their degree with something, it means that they have better chance to get job that will keep them once again better connected with normal life. When you treat people like US prison system does, you just break people more and I think that is what is showing the results too with how many ends up back behind bars. People most of the time will end up behaving as you treat them. Treat them like animals and they end up doing just that.

[@neuralwarp]

It's a myth that harsh punishment deters serious crime. Social mentoring works. But nominal punishment deters minor crime.

[@spugelo359]

Yup... many of the worst criminals don't even seem to care, the ones that do did not expect to be caught. No matter how horrible the punishment would be, it's worthless if the to be criminal believes in getting away with the crime. There would be so much less crime if people knew how to do math (to properly evaluate risk and reward). The potential reward for relatively minor crimes is rarely worth it compared to the punishment if caught and it's far easier to tell that you're not coming out on top in that risk/reward calculation.

[@daedalron]

The graph they show at 2:35 really show how punishment system doesn't work. It show that back in the 1950s, when Finland was using prisons based on the american model, they had an incarceration rate that was 4 times what it is now.

[@lassi3554]

Some time ago I saw a documentary about a guy who had spent 30-40 years in prison. When he went to prison, there were no cellphones and even computers were pretty rare. The world he knew had changed so much. I think it's a must for prisons to provide some kind of rehabilitation and training otherwise prisoners are probably going to feel disconnected from the outside world. It would be best to provide them some means to make a living after their sentence.

[@jonathanemptage1593]

Finnland has such low reoffending rate that can’t help but think they must be doing something right I actually think governments in countries with high crime (or reoffending) rates should look at the Finish system and other successful systems and maybe trial those systems in their countries.

[@kakerandelin]

It's not all about the prison system, it's also about the higher standard of living. If you're not dirt poor you don't need to become a criminal. And even most poor people here in Finland still at least have a roof over their heads and free healthcare (kinda) and get welfare money from the government etc. But oh wait, that's socialism! That must be bad! This country was an incredible success story from WW2 until 1989, after which GPI has come down steadily because the right wing aholes have done everything in their power to make Finland more like the US and they are succeeding bit by bit, privatizing everything. Universal healthcare is already effed, housing and electric grid too just to name a couple, prison system will be privatized and effed soon too that's for sure.

[@Weffi76]

Finlands Crime rate is much higher than it looks like, but for more minor crimes, you might get a fine or just a slap on the wrist, combine that whit lack of police, shit loads of crime goes undetected or not even reported, the crime here is different though from many other countries, where murders are at the bottom, but at same time, more minor crimes like shoplifting to burglary is on the rise, and quite a lot , drug crimes are also on the rise.

[@EneTheGene]

​@@kakerandelinYou are never forced to be a crominal. It's always a choice. As for why Finland is suffering, it's not due to anyone on the political right. It's because the large population group, born after ww2 is retiring, and so a system which isn't gaining income is gaining more and more to pay for. Cuts have to be made somewhere even if the economy remains stable!

[@kakerandelin]

@@EneTheGene Yes, it's a choice indeed, steal or die. A country's economy isn't like your personal economy. Government debt also isn't like your personal debt. Austerity doesn't work as a policy, cuts only worsen the situation as they also cut people's spending power and create more poverty, thus hurting the economy and not helping it like right wing voters have been brainwashed to think. Meanwhile the corrupt politicians themselves know exactly what they're doing, cutting and privatizing everything that made this country great and trying their best to eradicate the middle class, just like in the US. We already have huge lines for donated food, ridiculously high rents, electric transfer fees are bigger than the electric bill itself, dentist line is a year, etc etc. Soon there'll be a lot more homeless people, crime and everything will go to shieet just because ignorant ppl think that austerity actually works and vote for aholes who only represent the corporate world's interests and not the people's. The state isn't gaining income like it used to because they already sold everything that made profit to private corporations!

[@changedmynamebcyallwouldnt..]

@@EneTheGenealmost all crime except crimes of passion are caused or atleast highly affected by socioeconomic conditions, there’s studies on this. on top of this, everything you are as a person is your genes, your environment and the interaction of the two, this is the first thing you learn in a psychology class. robbing a store is a choice, but the reasons you made that choice is beyond your control. so yes, it is a choice, but is it really a free choice? free will in the way most understand is nothing but an illusion. this doesn’t mean we can’t have the concept of individual responsibility, that is needed for society to work. however, shared responsibility is also needed for society to work. everything is a cause and effect relationship, and the only way to change the effect is to change the cause. in this case, it has been proven time and time again that short sentences focusing on rehabilitation work significantly better than long sentences focusing on punishment. please research this, first look at recidivism rates by country and then look at studies on which work better. one example i want to share is norway, it used to have a similar system to the us and it had a closer to 70% recidivism rate. it wasn’t working, so they decided to try short sentences that focus on rehabilitation, and recidivism went down to 30% if i remember correctly.

[@TheGuilty11]

What you said in 7:30 is the exact reason why you can never compare Nordic "anything" to USA. The living standards and support you get from your government is just something else. And what comes to these prison systems the situation and development of systems that took decades to build and the population who were raised to those "rules" in USA just would not understand what the hell is happening here :D It is so deeply routed to US society that "if you kill, you should die or lose your life" that no one actually think what does that even mean. Revenge and punishment is the same thing there. And that is very expensive in long run. But it is also modern slavery in other way. I'm actually very glad to see many of you younger US content creators to react these things. Even if USA has its general problems it is still the richest country in the world. And should be the biggest factor what comes to our future. But it will never be that if younger generations stays as ignorant as they have been :D So i'm really glad to see you and other channels reacting videos about other countries because you are part of that new US generation that might turn things over :) So umm...thank you for these videos!

[@henrifin]

The fact that American people would say Finnish prison is better than living free in America, says more about America than the Finnish prison.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

10:58 It’s definitely a case by case basis and not a sweeping generalisation.

[@kleinshui9082]

Friendly reminder that Finland is nordic, but not scandinavian. :D

[@jameizi2126]

It's easier to choose where the line is, when you know if your goal is to punish or rehabilitate. In finland we do think rehabilitation for everyone, we do look at all cases individually instead lump them all under one category and dont treat the prison system as a factory to punish the evil.

[@Tyrisalthan]

Yes, nordic countries usually do pretty well on those happiness studies. But it seems that it has stopped rotating, Finland has won like 7 times in a row now.

[@leestevens4250]

If we just gave Joel one of those Finnish ice baths in the video, it would probably cure his recidivism problem! We only want what is best for you, Joel!! ^_^ ;)

[@Alexxandra3110]

Finland has also an amazing school system…

[@nagi1337]

We had an amazing school system. it has been in serious decline for the past ~15 years because of political decisions. A lot of information on the internet about the amazingness of Finland is decades behind the current state of the country.

[@kotkamies9110]

i live near the prison in Laukaa and in the summer times the prisoners could go fishing at that lake

[@MikkoRantalainen]

The interesting thing is that the US has way more natural resources than Finland so the US should have way better change to do at least the same level of society as Finland. However, that would need government doing a good job.

[@davepb5798]

In some countries, they're allowed to work as normal during the week, then go to prison for the weekend.

[@amadeuz8161]

If you want to reduce convict in USA you only need to increase the quality of the life of the people at the bottom. Like make having a home and food on the table a human right over there. That should at least remove those that did something out of desperation.

[@sicknessnfilth1616]

Oh but you make it sound like a simple task. I mean I totally agree with you, it would actually make a difference. Problem is that who would put that in motion? They would need to dig deep into American social structure and have capability to change it. USA is a huge area to cover and the amount of people living in there is titan class compared to Finland. It is a wonderful thought and I'd love to see this project in practice.

[@amadeuz8161]

@@sicknessnfilth1616 less people less money and more people is more money. Size doesnt matter if the % will among the population is the same. Like its just another excuse like with everything else not done. Pure capitalism doesnt support the many, its goal is for the few to succeed. Like you have low taxes over there but in the end the common person has to pay more than we with higher tax, like low tax only benefits the wealthy and the lucky ones. My point is that it doesnt matter if you have 1m or 1b people because the % of people is the same, we vote and its % but our wealthy understood back in the day that if a person aint put into a desperate situation then that person has no reason to ruin their current situation by taking a risk. There will never be 0 people doing stpd stuff but you can at least reduce the number by removing the ones doing things because they see no other option.

[@Pappa_66]

The problem with these videos are, that they do not tell you The whole story. This is not "The Finnish prison system". Open prison s are only for few Lucky ones, Who have worked their asses off for a looong time To be selected, if your crime is this serious. Best Regards from Finland!

[@mikrokupu]

Saying "open prisons are only for few Lucky ones" is not correct. In 2020 as many as 40 percent of the prisoners in Finland spent at least some part of their sentence at an open prison facility, according to the Finnish YLE news.

[@lieska333]

Yes but that includes all prisoners. For serious, violent crime it’s usually towards the end of the sentence, as gradual step toward full freedom. To get there as a murderer you must really work and make progress on your rehabilitation plan

[@johncrwarner]

I have friends who live in Laukaa which is near Jyväskylä in central Finland I was visiting them in 2001 in September and was in a sauna in Laukaa on 11 September that year! It is a wonderful country and fabulous people.

[@johncrwarner]

BTW Finland is normally classed as a Nordic country but not a Scandinavian country the video gets it wrong sadly.

[@renatewest6366]

I hear you viewpoint.Prevention is better Deprivation of liberty is the punishment .Also there is a need to stop recidivism. Not just for prisoners but to save money and direct it to better areas.Prison Deprivation of liberty is the punishment not continued torture.

[@MrBanaanipommi]

that prison was nearby me, i say was because they moved the prison from Laukaa to Jyväskylä... dont know where it is now but i drove many time past that prison and it looks basically some small school or so

[@Fancyleidi]

I just complained to my husband about how cold and dark it is here in Finland and winter is just coming, but then I said that we live in the best country in the world and we are grateful for it! God bless and protect USA and Finland 🤍🇫🇮🇺🇸

[@juhaimmanen6041]

Reason for Finnish prison system is money and maintaing trust for goverment. Prisoners are expected to return to society to pay high taxes to maintain high cost for high living standard of entire society. Vicious and dangerous criminals are kept in metal institutions or killed by other criminals with sanction of self employment course. No one fear for goverment, but what other prisoners might do for you while in prison or prison leave outside prison.

[@nagi1337]

The video is bordering on misinformation with the description of Finnish prison system. The open prisons are a small part of the system. The open prisons are a "training ground" between prisons and freedom, where the prisoners have to apply. In normal prisons inmates are in their cells 23 hours a day, unless they are working for the prison (in the kitchen for example), under security, for less than 1€ per hour. The open prison is just for those that are close to release and deemed safe, so they can train for civilian life.

[@michaelmichelsson]

now you have to understand that in finland the prisons are funded by the state, and in the united states the business is run by private companies, they want prisoners for themselves that the united states authorities produce for them. in the United States there has always been the idea that prisoners should be punished as much as possible, in the Nordic countries prisoners are shackled but moderately

[@MrBanaanipommi]

how long is the life sentence in us? in finland its like 14 years or so........ which is ridiculous, and if you are first timer you sit half of that time in prison...

[@tuomassankiaho]

Just have to say we are not Scandinavian country. We are nordic.

[@freyjasvansdottir9904]

@morejps Just so you know, in the Nordic countries generally the maximum sentence possible is 16 years, except if are deemed a danger to society and being kept in a facility for the criminally insane, then you are kept until you are deemed to be safe to society. This is exceedingly rare. So if you’re sentenced to “life” in prison, generally that means 16 years. The goal is that during that time you will be helped to re-enter society as a person who can contribute to society, and not end up in the same problems that resulted in your imprisonment in the first place.

[@BoloH.]

Like all murderers, Matti certainly did not start in minimum security prison. He earned that spot with good behaviour and commitment to becoming a productive member of society. Keeping him in prison for some stupid amount of time would be doubling down on the losses caused by the crime, regardless of what the victim's family (justifiably) feels about the situation.

[@aapopesonen2902]

Why the heck did the video call Finland a "Scandinavian nation"?

[@stephenconway2468]

I am glad that this young is asking the right questions. There are no perfect answers, but the questioning is key to arriving at good solutions.

[@miscme7116]

What is interesting also that in Finland, if you have no prior criminal history, or the last crime was long enough time ago, you can be sentenced as a first-time offender, and sit only half of your sentence. If you stay good and don't commit any crimes in a long enough time again, and then commit one, you can again be sentenced as a first-time offender.

[@RogerBengtsson75]

The humane typer of prisons that have the main goal of rehabilitation require that society outside the prisons have managed to provide a well functioning and safe society. In Finland, all homeless are provided with their own hosing with no strings attached at all. Then they have access to social worker, psychiatrists and medical assistance on location IF THEY WANT but not forced to participate. Add to that free education including university, free universal healtcare and highly regulated society as a whole to ensure the people decide how society is run with no market forces allowed to influence the political system (exept on EU level where lobbying is permitted wich I hate).

[@kallekulmala1876]

Matti is a special case. Usually those who are sentenced to crimes like murder have to serve them in closed prisons. Only those who are willing to change and are not at high risk of escape get to be in open prisons. Usually violent criminals get sent into to closed prisons and serve there, but they are still very humane. Murder equals an imideate life sentence here. However life sentence means around 18-20 years since you will be pardoned by the president around that time if you behave well. The longest prison sentence here was 23 years. However you can get an actual life sentence if you are deemed mentally insane. That's how you get sent to forced treatment and have to spend your entire life in a rubber room in a restricting shirt. We have few those.

[@oskar6747]

7:50 We had the same problem in the 90s, but it just meant that we needed to improve on helping homeless and addicts. No one should be living on the streets or in public toilets during the winter. Even the worst addict who doesn't want help deserves a roof over his/her head. Btw. how should I say the previous sentence without his/her when in Finnish those are just one word? And what if the addict identifies as neither? Is there a word you can use to describe a person without making assumptions on the gender?

[@daedalron]

Not a native english speaker, but as far as I'm aware, there is no gender neutral version in english. So it is either "his", "her", or the neutral "its", but that is not for humans. So your best way is what you did, use "his/her".

[@steveaachen62]

​​@@daedalron@oskar6747 ...Ihr habt Probleme...!

[@herpaderppa3297]

It's a philosophy. 1.) Justice of revenge. // 2.) Justice of resocialization. - In Finland and other parts of Europe (not all) they see criminality like a disease. Nobody wants to be a criminal, so if someone ends up as a criminal they try to correct it. A criminal lost it's way and is guided back to the right path again, so to speak. In a revenge justice system, you should have behaved in the first place, you didn't, now society punishes you. Imagine punching children in the mouth everytime for small misdemeanours. Coming too late to dinner? Bamm, fist in the face. How will these kids ever be healthy adults?

[@Fortuna88828]

It is terribly expensive to imprison people: one inmate here in Finland costs 80 000 euros per year so we don't want them to end up back in prison when their time is done. In stead they can become productive members of the society and pay taxes.

[@eddyvandeven5963]

The big question is : Do we see prisons as a way to punish people or as a way to keep our societies safe. If someone did something, should he get counceling, help, education and the tools to live a better life so he does not need the same mistakes again. Or must he be punished because of what he did. and if so what consequences will that have for the society they get back into. If you punish someone because he has a bad start in life and does not help him to improve what will happen to that person, will he be kind to society and will he not be doomed to make the same mistakes again. And if someone goes to prison because a person commited a crime because of mental issue, does he belong in prison or should a psychiatric hospital be not a better place for that person. Or should even people with mental issues be punished for things they did. I don't think the questions are hard to answer and I believe the prison system in Finland answered those questions in a way that makes society better. And makes sure the least amount of people are in prison. And the people who are in prison have the best chance not to return there.

[@TheBigMe0w]

I recommend you watch the documentary "I just killed my father". It delves into the need of being presented with different behavioral responses/reactions to be able to make better choices in the future. It's why many European justice systems focus on rehabilitation vs revenge. I agree that you can't just apply this prison to the US. But with many prisoners I get the sense that they just never learned another way to deal with or avoid conflict other than aggression. In turn it seems that many first time offenders on the US get more criminal by being surrounded and learning from other violent prisoners bc there's no alternative

[@MikkoRantalainen]

Here's another video worth checking out: The Norden - Nordic Prisons kzbin.info/www/bejne/fpeopK1uZpeEZ6ssi=4oDB6hICclJXAj5V

[@LM-EntertainmentAustralia]

i think it's also important to make a distinction about the ownership of prisons. prisons in finland are government-owned and not-for-profit whereas the US has such a high amount of private, for-profit prisons. this is where the difference comes. in a private, for-profit system there is no plus side to rehabilitating prisons (as it affects the bottom line) and ensuring prisoners don't come back, means they're less like to make more money from recidivist offenders. this becomes relevant to every "quality of life" factor which is compared between US and Finnish prisons. any "luxury" or new buildings and ammenities have to come out of the profit of the private prison. in a government-run system like that in finland, they don't have to worry about cost as much as it's built into their budget. they also, therefore have a genuine interest in rehabilitating prisoners. the one major factor is the attitude towards prisoners in both countries being so vastly different. in the US, going to prison and the time spent in prison are to punish you. the view in finland is that the punishment is being removed from society, your own freedom to be with family and friends.. and then the time in prison is seen as the time for rehabilitation. that difference in where the punishment starts and end is such a stark contrast.

[@steveaachen62]

@LM-EntertainmentAustr...🇬🇧...this idea is also anchored in the German SVollZG. The prison sentence, i.e. the deprivation of personal (movement) freedom, is the main focus. In addition, life within the prison should be as similar as possible to external conditions, as long as aspects of security and order do not conflict with this...! 🇩🇪...dieser Gedanke ist auch im deutschen SVollZG verankert. Die Freiheitsstrafe, also der Entzug der persönlichen (bewegungs-) Freiheit, stellt das hauptsächliche Augenmerk dar. Darüber hinaus soll das Leben innerhalb des Vollzuges möglichst den äußeren Verhältnissen angeglichen sein, sofern Aspekte der Sicherheit und Ordnung dem nicht entgegenstehen...!

[@finnishculturalchannel]

Is the length of the possible sentence the deciding factor, when people decide whether they will commit a murder or not?

[@panibo]

In some cases yes. At least one case I know which was commited by a person called Janne Raninen. He openly talked about the murder and what sort of planning was done before that. The guy he wanted to murder lived in Sweden where the punishment for murder is much worse, so what he ended up doing is he lured him to Finland and commited it here. So basically he knew he would be caught and planned for the murder based on the ammount of time he would get.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

3:57 Omg that’s so true!

[@79BlackRose]

A thought-provoking video for sure. It would have been helpful if the source video dealt with wider issues. For example, the thoughts of bereaved friends and families of the victims. How do they feel about someone being treated with such dignity and respect? Do they feel that justice has been done? Also, how does Finland deal with non-compliant prisoners that are violent in prison? It feels like what was presented was a rather narrow view of the criminal justice system in Finland.

[@meikewassmuth4801]

It's not representative of course, but in michael more's "where to invade next?" there is a segment where he speaks with the father of a murdered teenager, about the finnish (or was it swedish?) prison system. If I remember correctly, the father made clear that despite his loss and his personal feelings he also strongly feels that the system represents his values.

[@zuckerzwerg123]

The question is a bit deeper: "retribution" is an instinct (and the 1st thought) - but will it HELP the families and friends of the victim in the long run? In my personal experience "forgiveness" takes a lot more effort, time, work and healing - but it is "justice" - someone took (at least) your peace of mind - and you gain it back. It's more empowering than "an eye for an eye". In many European countries taking care of victims, families and friends is not job of the judge (but of social and other professionals). "Serving justice" is seen as an effort to match the real(!) needs of victims, families and friends, not by punishing the criminal (even though sometimes criminals have to pay reparations or will work in social facilities to "pay their dues").

[@zuckerzwerg123]

@@meikewassmuth4801 I guess it's all about values. There is a sarcastic German proverb which roughly translates to: "if you show me your grim face I'm gonna hit you till you show your happy face!". That's the idea of the American prison system: punish them until they develop social skills! It won't work.

[@klaus2t703]

True, the families of the victims have their feelings. Surely understandable. But the mindset is different here in Europe. For sure you can´t treat all prisoners identical. I guess the mindset here is more: how to avoid a crime. Crime in the first place but also crime after prison. A harsh treatment does not help if the same person immediately kills the next person ... just because of missing a perspective for a peaceful life. Then the next family will suffer. This family would not suffer if the prisoner had changed his behaviour. I´ve seen comments that say the Europen prisons are like hotels. But from an objective view: isn´t it better how Finland did it? Reducing the incarceration rate, low crime rate, safe country, happiest country. Then see the USA in contrast. If the prison conditions would reduce the crime rate ... then the USA should have a rather low crime rate. But sadly the opposite is the case.

[@allenwilliams1306]

When will you get it into your head that the thoughts and feelings of the bereaved are not relevant to how an offenders is dealt with? Revenge is not a pertinent consideration in how to sentence or treat an offender. All that matters is in the future, not the past. Justice is what is right, and what is right is what is best for the offender in rehabilitating him into society to assume a non-offending role in it.

[@jannevirtanen3242]

Greetings from Finland.

[@mjouppi]

Greetings from Finland 🙏

[@verjnuarmu]

There is one problem with making these prisons so comfortable. Even before what i've heard, homeless criminals commit minor crimes before winter to get a small sentence so they can get a free apartment, food etc. Then they get released after winter and they just continue doing crimes..

[@MrEtatyomies]

as you can see... even prison are honest here in Finland (native finns) some makes mistakes and accepts the sanctions. def. not work elsewhere...

[@samhartford8677]

Life in Finland is basically 12 years at max. That is, the person is going to get out and not be kept up alive by the state until he dies on tax payers' monies. That is, the ex-con will have to either learn how to live in society without returning to prison or to commit another crime and return to prison at tax payers' dime. This is the reasoning: Getting out with the best skills (tertiary schooling is free anyway for anybody outside) is the best option for society. There's still a long way to go after prison, but if one has no skills to succeed in society, there will be no hope and people will just re-offend, as they will have no other choice.

[@bubblenugget9240]

I don't think imprisoning someone for the rest of their life is justice, justice is making sure the same doesn't happen again, which is achieved by rehabilitation, which comes from fair treatment and giving people a chance, the people in finnish prisons are not free to go as they please, these prisons are quite rare and even in these ones they can only move between a couple places.

[@infinitedeath1384]

Justice is making sure that criminals get punished according to their crimes. If a murderer is let out of prison, there's no justice for the victim.

[@testi_kanava68]

Finnish justice and the treatment of prisoners is really wrong. A rapist here can even be released on parole and a murderer can be freed with a sentence of up to 6 years. Even a multiple murderer can be freed in Finland

[@XtreeM_FaiL]

And top on that. You can be first timer every time you get sentence.

[@Redfizh]

Here in Finland most crimes are solved by just making sure every child has no reason to ever fall for crimes. Everyone are at least middle class, they pay high taxes, so Finland can make more taxpayers. Happyness and wellfare are just byproducts. How to turn prisoner into a taxpayer? How can american prisoner be one if he dies in prison?

this video reminds to all of us how our country is in pre historical time

[@jannekallio5047]

Of course the problem is that this is not just or fair, it is simply trying to make it best for the whole society. Most of us feel criminals should be punished, but that just makes them worse criminals. I fear you can't have both justice and "healing" of criminals, you have to choose one and Finland chose to "heal".

[@ultrajn]

Problem of video is that it only shows new "open" prisons. Regular prisons are quite different.

[@raanianna4455]

I think overall the idea behind Finnish prison system is good. It's important to try to prepare the prisoners in a way that they can more easily become productive members of society when they are released, instead of feeling like they have no options and so they return to crime. However the system is not without its flaws. Sentences can be relatively light even with torture and murder. The average "life" sentence (or the actual time served) is 14,5 years, last I checked. Every year you can read about murderers (sometimes including serial killers and cannibals etc) being released in Finland even when the evaluation of the prison staff as well as prison psychiatrists is that there is a high risk returning to violent crime. Yet the high court makes the decision to release these prisoners. I have read interviews of very frustrated heads of prisons in Finland who feel like the court only looks at factors such as is the sentence served, sobriety and did they participate in educational programs, instead of hearing the evaluation of the psychiatrists or prison staff. Though compared to US it sounds good when only 1 in 3 end up back in prison, but that is still 30 %, which I think leaves a lot of room for improvement.

[@AHVENAN]

When talking about murder, treating the convicts like animals and abusing them on a daily basis, won't ever undo what they did, and alot of times it's going to cause them to become even more violent, so the american system is pretty much just making things worse all around.

[@kamikazetrading394]

They have captured the Agent 47 from the hitman computer game, obviously the tech skills is needed to continue business as usual as Agent 47..

[@PokhrajRoy.]

Idk if you’ve seen that video of a prisoner who had a rather long sentence and then sees New York City in a new light.

[@sicknessnfilth1616]

Good point that there should be consequenses for say murder, assault etc. They do even in Finland. You'll loose your freedom to go and live how you'd want to. The thing is you are not bound there for the rest of your life, but instead you'd keep them locked up gnawing resources they get the chance to be useful to society. It is even recommended that convicts would use the time to study a profession rather than come out of prison with nothing changed but the age one got in. I know it is problematic especially for the relatives of murder victim, but what good is he doing rotting there for end of time. Give a chance for a change, but only after careful evaluation that the prisoner has indeed made a change. Btw. Technically life sentence in Finland means life sentence, but most convicts are paroled after 17 yrs +

[@JanHellqvist]

Rather than comparing Finland or other Nordic countries to the US as a whole, you might consider comparisons with individual states. There the populations are fairly similar in size for the most part.

[@flybefree]

Joel, Finland isn’t a Scandinavian country, they’re Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. It’s a language origins thing apparently. I found that out recently.

[@pendorran]

Large Swedish population in Finland.

[@XaryenMaelstrom]

@@pendorran less than 5% of the population. Not that big. Edit: Still not part of Scandinavia. Also it's not a language thing. It's a land thing. Scandinavian peninsula. Finland is not part of it. @flybefree

[@henrikmanitski1061]

@flybefree Denmark is not on the Scandinavian peninsula. So that leaves only Norway and Sweden.

[@flybefree]

@@henrikmanitski1061 Although Denmark is not actually on the Scandinavian peninsula, it is definitely considered part of Scandinavia as it is culturally and historically close to its neighbours Norway and Sweden: their languages share common characteristics. Also, Denamrk used to control large sections of Sweden.

[@ryyb_himself]

@@pendorranThey make like 0,1% of the population of Finland. Swedish-speaking Finns are not Swedes.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

Interesting to see a video on Prisoners in STEM.

[@bobsnabby2298]

Don't think by doing a murder puts you to an open prison. These are heavily studied cases where they are allowed to have such circumstances. Still almost all heavier criminals are in normal cells. Don't do crimes ?

[@MikkoRantalainen]

I think typical sentence for manslaughter is 7-9 years in Finland, and you get "lifetime" for murder but in reality, you can get free after around 12-13 years with sensible behavior.

[@B1gLupu]

I think you still sorta don't get. It isn't about what is "just" or what is "fair", but what is the optimal way to stop them from doing it again. People are vendictive, and the sense of fairness requires the perperators to suffer too, which leads to bad outcomes. Justice pales in comparison to actually getting the desired results.

[@JainMonroe]

if a person is put in prison where he is treated like an outcast and an animal living in a cage, of course he becomes an animal, his mental state is totally brainwashed and he does not know how to control his anger in any way. many criminals may have a lot of psychological or physical problems in the background, be it poverty or drug crimes or even how they have been treated since childhood.

[@Nubbe999]

I understand that it could and probably does feel offensive to many of the victims. But at the same time, if 60% of prisoners in the US commit crimes again. That means there will not only be the first victim but there is a 60% chance there will be another victim. So it's probably best for society and even the victim that the prisoner gets to deal with all the problems and becomes a functioning member of society.

[@darbyl3872]

There's always something arbitrary about the approach to justice. The implementation is more concrete, once the approach is determined. Speaking of concrete, jails in the U.S. must have stock in that business. I don't know if we will ever have a society that respects itself enough to treat people in the same way as Nordic / Scandinavian countries.

[@kaizokuo5850]

The fact that the rate of incarceration has been growing since 1970 (!50! years) shows it isn't related to the level of crime, which has risen and fallen in the same period.

[@Tyrisalthan]

United states prison system is flawed in two major ways. Firstly if a person becomes a fellon, it's really hard to merge back to society since nobody will (or even can't) hire them, they can't get a loan, usually nobody want to rent them apartment, etc. The only option for them is often to go back to the criminal circles, and once you get cought you are back into prison again. Secondly in the U.S. the prisons are privately owned corporations, which main point is to make money to the shareholders. That means they try to use as little money per prisoner as possible to maximize profits, which means no pleasantries or high tech gadgets for prisoners, and no extra personel (at least nobody who requires money) to help prisoners get back to society. What's more, it's in prisons own interest for them to not integrate prisoners back to society, since that way they constantly have customers. Full prisons means maximum profits, since they get paid for each prisoner they have. There is completely wrong incentive in place there, they should get paid for each prisoner who doesn't do any crimes within some amount of time after release, then prisons might actually do what they were supposed to do.

[@Joonatan75]

Finns, I have to tell you that if you are or are considered to be part of organized crime, you really can't sit in the open houses, but I think it's good that the group can study, etc.

[@Morph-ur3fx]

Germany have the Best Synchro in this World and we love the movie from Amerika. Our speaker must die. He speak. Mister Stallone, Travolta and Arni. Thank you for your Voice.

[@Morph-ur3fx]

Thomas Danneberg

[@shaman2384]

Job is the real prison. Working in tech you should be happy if you ever hear a thank you.

[@unknownentity8256]

I think this issue with sentencing is much harder to change since your system has worked this way for so long and there are too many guns in the U.S, more guns than citizens. Murder is much easier to commit in the U.S than in for example Scandinavia since guns are so easily available.

[@Starlingus]

Bec actually prisoring ppl is a business in US. U should look into that next?

[@lolsaXx]

Don't always put scandi/nordic countries on a pedestal. They don't always get it right. Sweden's crime rate has been rising exponentially since 2015.

[@markbebber2284]

Interesting that the prison population in the USA equals the entire population of Gaza.

[@redherring6154]

Yeah reform is better than harsh punishment. It’s a failed system if you don’t improve your skills while away. Up-skilling the individual will Definitely cut recidivism.

[@qwineth]

To be fair, this kind of a prison is an exception and he would have to have passed lots of tests and obstacles to get there. Still, compared with us, the US prison-industrial complex is simply primitive and disgusting, basically designed to create hardened criminals out of so many who well might have had otherwise a real chance to reform. A profit making enterprise - so bizarre!

[@alansmithee8831]

Hello Joel. I saw a similar video on Drunk Texan channel. My comment was similar to your reaction, that the mind set in "Anglo Saxon" cultures is not like this. Individuals in UK and especially US are more used to looking after number one and might see this as a let off and just pick up where they left off? So, when did you see the. inside of a prison cell?👨‍⚖️👨‍✈️ P.S. It would be interesting to see you respond to something by Thomas Sowell on your country, further to your statement about that. I too like to see both sides and make my own mind up.

[@hmmm9806]

This video is highly misleading. Murderers and other violent offenders cannot be immediately placed in open prisons in Finland. They may be transferred to open prisons only towards the end of their sentence if they have demonstrated reliability and good behavior. Open prisons provide a "soft landing," helping them better integrate into society and prepare for future freedom. If they fail to behave appropriately, they are transferred back to a closed facility. In Matti's case he likely spent approximately 10 years in a regular max security prison before being transferred to this open institution.

[@jisjis87]

I think that a lot of this comes from the way society is built. If you are born to a poor family in US you have next to none chance for a success even if you're smart and intelligent. That's why a lot of people end up on the streets and doing drugs and what so ever. In Finland you could go to schools and make a decent career no matter where you come from. That same mentality is carried through our criminal sanctions system as it aims that convicts could be rehabilitated to the society.

[@jisjis87]

and to add a thing: Life for convicts in US is so difficult that they rather go back to prison and there is no bright future in sight so they rely on the same methods for life they did before ending in jail. In Finland the system is based to making the alternative option so tempting they wouldn't want to go back to prison but to build a life outside the prison instead

[@boneitch]

What is the point of a prison, if it doesn't help the prisoner learn the skills and get the support to be in better shape for both them and society? Other than some urge for revenge, what use is it to spend so much money keeping people locked up in a place that just pushes them further down a path of crime? I personally don't like the existence of prisons in general, but if they exist, at least have them do more good than harm. I really don't understand how countries can passionately pump money into a prison system they all *know* only makes everything worse for everyone

[@boneitch]

I think that letting go of the revenge mindset of prison is incredibly important. As a victim of severe crime myself, I do find myself fantasising about revenge. But I wholeheartedly prefer that the systems in place prevent other people going through what I went through, over the satisfaction of revenge.

[@Aloh-od3ef]

There are 2 ways to treat people in prison. Either like a human or like an animal. When you treat people like animals. They will act like animals. Treat people like humans. Then they will act human.

[@juhagabrieltakkinen1131]

well think of it his way: if there is a release date then what kind of a human do you wish to release? Also if it is a life sentence in the literal sense then does it make sense to heap on punishment by treating a person like an animal or totrture them further? Thus pushing a person to a no loose scenario which will and does, in The US, lead to inmate on inmate and inmate on guard violence. Things to ponder on.

[@steveaachen62]

🇬🇧...unfortunately I also had to go through the experience of being in prison and I can therefore say from a "professional" mouth: the penal system is a reflection of every country - or to put it another way: every country has the penal system that it "deserves"...! 🇩🇪...ich hatte leider auch die Erfahrung eines Gefängnisaufenthaltes machen müssen und ich kann somit aus "berufenem" Munde sagen: Der Strafvollzug ist ein Spiegelbild eines jeden Landes - oder anders: Jedes Land hat das Strafvollzugssystem das es "verdient"...!

[@stiglarsson8405]

Dont missunderstand, becuse he was probably not put to that open prisson, without going to a stricter one first? So he have qualified to go to an open prison by showing good behavior/change of mindset!? In anyway, its comon for long time prisoners to spend there last time in open prisons to get training in social behavior and otuside life challanges! Its like a factory/university, with dorm rooms, quite a lot of rutines/scheduals/rules.. like in most adults life! Study is free of charge for everyone, so even inmates.. its becuse one like population to learn skills that could be used to promote the countrys competetivines! The idea is that for every prisoner that dont comes back, is a win-win, for society and them self! And there is still bunker prisons, those are expensive and for people thats to dangerus to let out!