1612: From Evangelical to ex-Christian - Rachel Wunderli pt. 2

[@caseyjude5472]

‘Life is a gift, not a test.” If more people were to realize this truth perhaps they could love better. Which would make a better world for everyone.

[@jonchristiansen8660]

I never thought of it this way. It is beautiful and has changed my whole perspective on life!

[@dannynyman9681]

Ditto that! I find it fascinating how some people have a larger reservoir for love than the Christian God's capabilities of love. And yet, they still hold on to something with no voice, no tangibility, no heart beat and will discard those who have all these things...and more.

[@caseyjude5472]

@Marc Vatsend Sin is made-up. It’s not real.

[@adamengland5811]

I have chronic mental health condition that requires multiple medications that can and do harm the body. My life is a constant test. No gift was ever given to me. Not everyone can live the fairytale or even strive toward a fulfilling life. Bitterness and pain is my fate. The “test” that is my life is the only I cling to.

[@caseyjude5472]

@@adamengland5811 And no one is taking this away from you. You get to believe any way you wish. And this discussion wasn’t about physical health, nor is anyone’s comment on any video ever meant to describe every one of the almost 8 billion humans & their individual life circumstances.

[@brittanyg7700]

A life changing phrase for me was, "Live like there's life before death."

[@juliadawndesigns4522]

This was so beautiful and thoughtful! I so resonate with Rachel's desire to focus her life on things that really matter, like love, compassion, and empathy. Thank you to all of you for the careful handling of difficult topics. I appreciated all of your insights.

[@timingisperfect]

Rachel is a delight and has tremendous musical talent. I wanted to scream out so many times as I heard her story, but perhaps the worst of this Part 2 is that she had to grieve and process all of this COMPLETELY ALONE. That church got real weird and she's too classy for not even naming it.

[@jodybrassfield5194]

I pray you receive peace! I went through that church yuck and don’t give up on being a church fam-I’ve been at my “little house on the prairie “ church . Our pastor truly leads his flock by example! It’s still out here! Ps-would love to be your friend! Bravo!!!!!

[@jodybrassfield5194]

PS-LOVE YOUR VOICE!!!!

[@oliviabuffington9569]

ah this is such a great video.. as a deconstructing non denominational college student this has helped me even more to open my eyes on how the evangelical christian church can be harmful and manipulating.. i appreciate you rachel!

[@lorineilson7529]

Great podcast. Rachel, your story has some similarities to mine. I found out the Mormon church wasn't true in 2017and resigned in 2018. Was invited to a Christian church I loved the whole experience. The music, the people, the Pastor staff. Started attending quite a few events there. One day I mentioned to my daughter who was attending there with her family how much I loved this church. She said Mom it's not the building that makes the church it's Christ, and there all just people like the rest of us. I think when you get to involved with anything you are going to get hurt. I started finding fallacies with what the Pastor was preaching and what the Bible teaches and stopped attending. Plus I didn't feel community there. I now attend a different church keeping my ears and my eyes open to anything unbiblical.

[@JoyfulNoiseLearning]

Loved hearing Rachel’s story. So grateful for hearing her perspective and to help me have more compassion for people who didn’t grow up like me or who don’t believe the same way I do. I will say I grew up in Christian churches (still in a Christian church) was a pastor’s daughter. I’ve been a part of 6 different churches, and I’ve seen the not healthy, broken side of churches, but I have also been a part of healthy places. They are out there. NOT perfect by any means, but definitely healthy and mature. ❤ My heart aches for Rachel or those who have had heartbreaking experiences from immature leadership. 😔

[@Maitasanti]

It would be nice to hear the other people's perspective involved in this issue. The wife, the worship pastor.

[@CarolineAnandSiddiqui]

My thought too

[@barbararuiz2690]

My thoughts exactly.

[@anthill1510]

There were so many boundary violations in this congragation way before any affairs, it made my head spin. Unpaid staff. Deciding who can talk to whom. Babysitting of the bosses kids. Private things being made everybodys business again and again. It`s a nightmare.

[@jaycie2213]

That was an amazing podcast. Thank you Rachel for your vulnerability. I too just came to the conclusion that no one knows what really happens in the afterlife. That's part of the human experience. It is frightening and liberating at the same time.

[@lilatueller]

The best part of this interview for me was at the end when she said she no longer views life as a test, but as a gift! I cheered out loud at that statement as I was driving down the interstate! Yes! That is exactly right and that is exactly what we need to remember as we go through life that this is not a test! I’m so tired of that mentality and how it drags us down into thinking we have to pass some test in order to get some prize at the end! Just make the best of this life while we’re here! Beautiful point, thank you so much!

[@BooThing14]

I left my church of 20 years acouple of years ago. I gave this place and its people all my youth...and while i find myself with many blessings, like my husband and children I also think of all I could've done all the time I lost with my parents and siblings because i gave it ALL to the church. My parents are gone now and there is no going back. I'm still a Believer but I will never become a member of another "church". This story is so powerful because I cried for all involved. Life is hard and love, empathy, care, and community should be always given. I honestly want to believe that the man you loved who died did so as a Believer. That belief is comforting to me so I will keep the Gospel my anchor for now because I need it.... Life is indeed a gift but it is also so very hard and dark at times.. I hope that as GLOBAL community we can have core religious beliefs but still always show LOVE ❤️ to each other... We are here one day and gone the next and those of us who remain should care about each other...

[@S070-g8q]

Well, isn't she a smooth operator. So glibly describing how she and her boyfriend were "So Wronged" because the Christian congregation decided to protect the innocent wife and children from the 2 adulterers.

[@jonycruz2430]

Wow what an amazing journey. I pray she finds complete happiness! And a life or purpose!

[@katherinenay7826]

I went to Rachel’s church and was at the “downtown” campus. I volunteered in the nursery. This story has completely blown my mind.

[@jeffthechristian3010]

All umpteen-hours of this interview are heartbreaking. This one will never trust Christ or his Body ever again. :-(

[@suzPeacemonger]

@@jeffthechristian3010 don’t give up. Search for yourself. Christ is the answer - even if she doesn’t think so.

[@jeffthechristian3010]

@@suzPeacemonger Don’t worry. I’m good with Jesus. Was talking abt interviewiee 😊

[@enlightenstudiowithyvonner8502]

I thought this was a Church community not middle school or high school. This is why more and more people are moving away from organized religion. Because they put people against each other over ridiculous contrived drama. That’s not God or Jesus. Why would anyone put themselves in a situation like this?? The ex wife COULD talk to Rachel if she could get over this stigma this church put on them.

[@tilu3303]

To Rachel - read C.S. Lewis and Lee Strobel, who were both atheists. Might be very interesting..

[@markchandler465]

I knew Rachel at this church - both campuses - she was platformed when she should not have been - she became a full participant in the spiritual abuse of others - good to see some self-awareness on her part - however, there is quite a bit of fauxnerability here - she herself shamed someone I know well to the point of becoming suicidal - she sought out the spotlight big time - glad some see people see thru her lack of clarity (affair) and the betrayed wife and their two kids are the ones devastated by this tragedy - I hope Rachel can follow thru on her journey to the point of making amends to those she spiritually abused

[@anthill1510]

What do you mean by spiritiual abuse?

[@julielarsen6501]

We have to remember that yes, every church will have scandals and problems. We are all sinners. When we put our faith in these imperfect church leaders instead of Jesus, we will always be disappointed. It’s easier to place our faith in someone or something that we can physically see and “depend” on. I’m learning that I can depend on God’s truth from His word, and I have to measure everything up to that standard. He will come and make all things new in the end. I can’t wait for that day!

[@joelgeorgeable]

Exactly mate. Well put!

[@CarolineAnandSiddiqui]

I watched the 1st episode not knowing there was a follow up episode. I watched it assuming she is still a Christian & not an ex. I remember thinking to myself after all the reasons that were stated for finding Christianity was this isn't going to last. Because she didn't join the church for the right reasons & totally placed her trust in humans (though Christians). Wrong reasons to join Christianity. Not community, not support but Christ alone. I'm an ex Catholic turned Christian, but though I left church I couldn't leave Jesus/God/Bible.

[@caynidar6295]

Many, many years ago I was fortunate enough to be able to experience two weeks of intensive group therapy and the therapist said something during one of the sessions that really stuck with me. She said "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem," referring specifically to people dealing with depression, ptsd, trauma, etc. In the midst of the depths of mental anguish, especially prolonged pain and hopelessness, it can be easy to forget that these feelings and experiences are temporary and that life can still be beautiful and wonderful and there can be happiness and joy and hope again. Suicide may fix the horrible feelings but it does so by permanently, irrevocably robbing the individual of ever experiencing any more of the good parts of life. Speaking from someone who attempted suicide two decades ago and has dealt with clinical depression and bipolar disorder since and probably well before, please continue trying and seek help. it is so worth getting help and working through the pain and despair. It is so worth it. Don't give up hope. Life is precious and absolutely a gift.

[@ruthkelly374]

sometimes the perminant solution is what is wanted as the problem isnt temporary

[@educationallie9149]

As someone who has a nonterminal illness that can be debilitating some days and a mental illness...it is NOT always a temporary problem...

[@LaLaJonesG]

Enjoyed this! I did read up on Josephus and it sounds like the history he wrote talked about Jesus’ life as well as others - James, John the Baptist.. until I hear more saying he’s not a trustworthy source, I won’t toss his texts out

[@busheslouise]

So excited for her part 2. Im SO sorry for her 'Christian' experience...❤

[@dadsarepeopletoo3785]

Awesome interview!

[@t.thompson9977]

Rachel is a beautiful person inside and out. Great podcast!!

[@ascender14]

I was raised in a very conservative, strict, evangelical denomination. After a period of inactivity and unbelief in my teens, I got back into church "hard core", but over the years, my views of the Bible and of the faith have moderated considerably. I'm now a very nuanced Christian with a very basic faith. Anyway, this is a heart-wrenching story. I would say that Rachel's experience with evangelical churches is very common. Not all churches would have handled things in this way, but most would have. It's really abusive and disgusting, which is why I refuse to commit to any church at this point. "Stepping down" is evangelical speak for voluntarily leaving a position. It's almost always the way that a firing is worded. "Oh, she stepped down", when it really should just be said that she was dismissed/fired. This is so common that Rachel even uses "stepped down" in the passive sense as an equivalent to getting fired. I wonder if she knows how common that language is and what it originally meant. Stepping down is also used for a voluntary resignation and should be the ONLY sense in which it is used. Cover-up and sugar-coating are super common in probably all evangelical churches.

[@brittneynbowen]

I would be willing to bet that Rachel's experience is actually very UNCOMMON. Sleeping with your recently fired pastor who is still married while you stay on board at the church with his wife and children is NOT common.

[@helenr4300]

Re finances and pastors. One church with many paid staff and not affiliated to a denomination is very different to traditional mainstream denominations where salaries are shaped by the denominational set up. I am in UK Methodist church and finances are always open to members and reported upstream, the annual audited accounts are to be signed off in a public meeting. ministers have oversight of multiple small churches, and except for a small extra for those in higher responsibility essentially all get the same stipend plus living in the church house - including accommodation it falls a bit below the UK median income., and about the level of plumbers. Even in US the mega churches are the rarity compared to small town and suburban churches, it is only a few producing music albums or writing books whilst having a big figure salary.

[@heidisexton5928]

😲... I'm surprised her church told her to find a different church home. Usually there is council, but not removal. I've never heard of a christian church removing a member. 🤷 Well, if a "crime" was committed, a pastor would be fired. I hope she finds peace within herself. ,🤗

[@anthill1510]

There were so many boundary violations in this congragation way before any affairs, it made my head spin. Unpaid staff. Deciding who can talk to whom. Babysitting of the bosses kids. Private things being made everybodys business again and again. It`s a nightmare.

[@KimixKicks]

I have also done a ton of research as I've deconstructed from being a non denom. christian. I was a christian since freshman year of highschool, and I have been deconstructing for 1-2 years now. I had to stop researching because I realized that if there is one thing in the bible that I didn't agree with or believe, then there is no reason to make excuses for it. If one thing isn't true, all of it unravels for me. And I also struggled with wanting the absolute truth of the interpretation of the bible, and it was exhausting me from trying to research my way to truth. I came to the conclusion that knowing that no one knows for sure is comforting. But I definitely believe that the earth is here with human beings for a reason. And maybe it's as simple as humans were created to live on this beautiful place, and die just like all the animals of the world do. And that makes me feel part of the world in a new and exciting way. Thank you Rachel for sharing your story and also reminding other ex christians that there are other people out there feeling/believing the same things as you right now. ♥ Also, this podcast had been one to help to process my own issues with christianity indirectly. I found it during the pandemic and have loved being able to learn why other people left their religion and their journey while I was indirectly trying to figure out what I believed and what was happening to my own faith.

[@jonycruz2430]

Dang life is a gift and not test. Dang that hit me. It’s so true

[@rachelhansen2417]

It’s surprising how comforting the lack of an afterlife can be. For me, believing that there isn’t one gives more closure when someone dies because I don’t have to worry that I might/might not see them again.

[@Mr2blue2]

"Tell us what it means to be a worship leader?" Short answer - The willingness to emotionally manipulate other people. At least she was honest about this part of her story.

[@tilu3303]

That was only a small facet of what she described but it's understandable that that aspect really stood out to you.

[@sharonhartwell2841]

Great sharing Rachel! Her self awareness is wayyy more balanced then most people I think. I connected with much of what she said regarding church controversy and being in the middle of things. Appreciated all she said.

[@rivkahmiri513]

Rachel you could be a therapist! Powerful stuff. Suicide of people you love is so hard.I'm a licensed clinical social worker who has dealt with depression since my twenties. What I always say to myself is: For right now breathing is enough, you are worthy of breathing. the suicide of some close friends has only made me cling tighter to life. I believe that life is both a gift and a test, a test to help the soul grow(By soul I mean essence of life within us). I am Jewish I was born Jewish. I think stories in the Bible do not have to be literal for me to gain something from them. I love Judaism for many reasons. One of those is the ability to question and have uncertainty but know that I am still part of something bigger. I believe in a God but I also believe that God is an energy that is a life force, that is larger than religion.Wishing you comfort strength and compassion on your journey. I'm so glad you shared all this with us!Your singingvvoice is etheral❤Rebecca from California

[@brittneynbowen]

As I keep listening I keep finding it hard to understand how this young lady doesn't see her culpability. She is bemoaning that churches have "cover ups" while she herself covered up her own life for several years

[@fair1hew]

Definitely had a tough time with this one. I couldn’t wrap my head around her justification for the affair. Just because the couple isn’t living together (their house being sold seems to be some kind of big deal in her mind) does not mean they are divorced. And to literally be lying to her whole congregation, with the wife and kids there 😳 was really disturbing. John, asking if she “felt” like it was an affair just because the couple was separated? Really? This isn’t about feelings, it’s about facts. They were married, period. I’m trying to break out of my black and white thinking, but I’m definitely not getting on board with this line of thinking. This was my mother’s and many other female member’s experiences. It’s devastating for the wives and children involved.

[@mormonstories]

Sorry Heather. I meant no disrespect to anyone.

[@fair1hew]

@@mormonstories I don’t think your intentions were nefarious at all. But please keep in mind that just as you prefaced her talking about suicide with a trigger warning, this should definitely have had a infidelity trigger warning.

[@jeffedmundson2044]

Heather I think you are right on the money. Now instead of admitting she was in an adulterous affair that tore at the faith of others she casts herself as some sort of victim. Instead of deconstructing Jesus and the bible along with the faith of others she might want to deconstruct her rationalization of what her part in this actually was. Hope she can be completely honest with herself at some point.

[@JaceMeunier]

Wow and I came to the comments to say how sad it is that anyone would paint that as an affair. It was the church shunning him for wanting to divorce that’s the issue, as well as logistical issues like custody that made them “married” on paper. Lots of people are legally married for years before getting officially divorced and this does not mean they are cheating to date other people. And she was forced into a decision of having to choose between having community/church and leaving a relationship she felt was worthy. And while it meant keeping this relationship a secret, they would’ve and did kick her out for being with someone they turned their backs on. While I can’t say I would’ve been able to hide my relationship I think it’s unfair to judge her or her deceased partner for managing how they knew to manage.

[@MarisaSoto12]

@@JaceMeunier Thank you! My grandparents separated when my mom (the oldest of their children) was a junior in high school. Their divorce didn’t finalize until a month before my parents got married. 7 years long the separation to the final divorce was. My grandparents both began dating people while they were separated and not once did my mom and her siblings, the family, and even now myself think that this meant they were having an affair because they were still legally married on paper.

[@mrsspeech]

Not to be rude but people can’t save you. Only Jesus can. Also could you do a video on excommunication. Most religions don’t do this as frequently as the Mormon Church. If we leave one church we might be removed from their rolls but not excommunicated. Thank you.

[@steveg1961]

In regard to "spiritual" experiences being evidence for religious belief, a few years ago I watched an episode of Derren Brown (an extremely talented mentalist) who took an atheist and, using his skills, literally caused her to have a profound "spiritual experience" in the context of religion. Here's point: The feelings are certainly authentic - but it's the cultural context we use to wrap around those feelings that transform the experience itself into some interpretive framework that we wrap around it. What religion does is provide a particular framework around such experiences that exploits them to promote the religious framework. Now, if you take the religious framework away, that doesn't take away the experience itself. The reason I mentioned that Derren Brown episode is because of how it shows this so obviously, by deconstructing the process and then reconstructing the process as something that Derren Brown could literally create and show to his audience on command. (Like I said, he's an extremely skilled mentalist.)

[@annlara5688]

I’m a person who believes in something. I believe there is something out there. I don’t attend any church. I believe I can pray and confess direct. I was raised by a mother who was a devout catholic. She passed a month before my birthday and oddly the day of my birthday a helium balloon that said happy birthday landed at my front door. I’ve chosen to believe that it was from her. When my father passed and I was setting up his military flag in my window a butterfly landed on my left shoulder. Again I’ve taken that as a sign from him. (He was a none practicing Baptist) I’ve taken those signs to say I’m fine and love you!! I live life just do your best each day and treat others as you would like to be treated. Should be simple!! I think humans who create church make mistakes and create there own rules and that causes the problems. God/Jesus is love and forgiveness!!!!!! The more I watch the more it proves my opinion correct. My heart goes out❤

[@brenthardaway3704]

Few Josephus scholars think that the entire text about Jesus is an interpolation. It is widely accepted that he mentioned the crucifixion. There is an Aramaic version that shows no signs of Christianizing. Also, the Roman historian Tacitus mentions both as well. Few historians, even very skeptical ones, doubt that Jesus was crucified - it was widely considered a dishonorable death, and it's one of the last things you would make uo if you were inventing a religion. Expecting much more from 1st century historians retrojects our 2000 years of hindsight onto them. Christianity was a small sect with probably a few tens of thousands of adherents at the end of the first century. It wouldn't have seemed very important at the time. There were sermingly more important things to write about (wars, politics). Just as a historian at the end of the 19th century would regard Joseph Smith as a minor footnote in American history.

[@danielmeakin]

Keep Jesus at your 12 o'clock and your community church in your peripheral about 3'oclock. Most if not all churches have some level of corruption. The only church that doesnt depend on money is the one we carry in our hearts -- that's the true Jesus one.

[@CarolineAnandSiddiqui]

I 💯 agree

[@jbdenning]

This is maybe top three heartbreaking episodes for me. I’m impressed that Rachel has processed this enough to share and analyze it even though it was so recent.

[@bobbieroberts1995]

This is a narrow view of Christian churches. I general rule to measure salaries of pastors is in line with what teachers salaries would be in the community based on experience and level of education. Churches have boards or councils that determine salaries insurance and retirement. Most congregations vote to approve the budget I'm coming from 78 yrs of experience in denominational churches. They are watched closely for proper stewardsjip

[@99blackbirds]

Rachel & John, You were both on the same page there for a while! Jesus Christ was about love & Grace and forgiveness. The problem lies in men and or leaders who abuse their power. The church is still good. The pattern is always the same. It starts out good, the church is family and community. But then leaders come in and abuse their authority. It still is about a relationship with Christ. Don't let men get the best of you. Martin Luther said, "whenever God builds a church the devil builds a Chapple nearby". The story of Jesus Christ is still GOOD!! Don't give up on that.

[@Chaycheelynn]

I would agree. “Church” or whenever a group of people are coming together for some purpose there will be pain and issues because we are human and have a sinful flesh even on our best days. The difference between Mormonism and following Christ is huge. The problem is humanity, God is the solution.

[@99blackbirds]

@@Chaycheelynn where are you from?

[@Chaycheelynn]

@@99blackbirds I grew up in Manti, UT but have been in Utah County my adult life.

[@99blackbirds]

@@Chaycheelynn I grew up In West Jordan Ut, then moved to PHX! LOL, I love your all-about Jesus Theme! LOL While growing up Mormon! EVILLOL!

[@tysonh424]

If they were separated, it was not an affair. People need to understand that.

[@anthill1510]

Yes, especially keeping in mind how long divorces can take this idea that it`s an affair when you find a new partner after the couple decided to seperate is ridiculous. The way John asked questions about this really was like policing. He still has some Mormon mindset.

[@tysonh424]

@@anthill1510 I didn’t take it that way, I took it more as him in that way without him actually feeling that way. But yeah, separating is like breaking up when dating, legally as well. Once that date of separation is established, anything that happens after is treated like you are no longer in a committed relationship, both legally and socially. Sure, people frown upon it, just because they don’t understand it.

[@nohandle00000]

I feel for the wife. She let those two girls into her house, treated her like a family member and one of those girls took her husband away :( and her own husber betrayed her. So sad.

[@Rojeska]

I feel bad for you. Listening and not hearing what's being said must be a difficult disadvantage in a day to day life.

[@rachelhansen2417]

The husband clearly already had marital issues and likely an affair BEFORE her incident. The couple was separated before then. It’s still not ideal, and she knows it, but she was not “the other woman” in an otherwise healthy marriage.

[@brucee8332]

Churches like that always exploit musicians! Musicians should be paid just as well as pastors; they do the same amount of work!

[@scottbrandon6244]

Watch the Hillsong documentary. Hillsong used volunteers whenever they could. Evangelical churches do not pay Sunday School teachers, auxiliary leaders, organists, choir members or leaders, the worship band, and other assignments and callings.

[@jonycruz2430]

Yeah it’s super cringe. And God will deal with this soon. Thank the lord my pastor honors musicians!

[@Peachesflower3863]

Wow grown adults acting like they are in high school truly deplorable! It sounds exhausting being in a high demand Christian church, having to care so much about other peoples personal choices! I do not have the time haha

[@anthill1510]

Yeah, there was so much enmeshment in all of this, I literally got a headache from listening. So many people crossing boundaries between professional and personal and acting like that`s a normal thing. Even Mormonism does`t officially tell people to cut contact to your family.

[@jonycruz2430]

I’m going to be honest. I can tell off the bat, the men of the church. (Higher ups) withheld the REAL SIN he committed from her. And The BF also withheld it from her. How do I know? Cuz he has a pattern of secrecy, living out sin, grooming, he didn’t really have boundaries, and didn’t even fully divorce before engaging with another woman. He must have a been an amazing guy personality wise but coming from a leadership position this dude is massive leaven and liability. Even though he is loved by our lord. But leadership is a massive deal to apostle Paul. However I believe he is with the lord now. The most likely they let her go not cuz they were in contact. But cuz they picked up on it, the extra stuff. Once they knew she was in contact. They knew. They discerned it. Anyone on staff knows what I mean. Lead pastor aren’t stupid. Especially A types. I feel really bad for her though. I pray for her healing.

[@dannynyman9681]

I find it fascinating how some people have a larger reservoir for love than the Christian God's capabilities for love. And yet, they still hold onto something with no voice, no tangibility, no heart beat and will discard those (even family) who have all these things...and more. I have to think that it goes deeper than that. I think individuals are responsible for their own decisions. So, at the individual level, what motivates a person to discard another? Perhaps remaining with the crowd is what truly makes a person react cruelly towards others. Somebody once said: A true test of character is doing the right thing when no one is around to see. I think that is good but perhaps there is something better. To do the right thing when all others believe it to be the wrong thing. For here, we have unsavory consequences for doing what is right. With this type of person, one might believe he is mostly sincere. There will be very little lip-service and he may be devoid of virtue signaling. He will be cancelled and perhaps not remembered. But he will be true to himself.

[@townsendv58]

Thank for sharing your story.

[@makegoodfashion]

This sounds like church hurt more than anything. It's sounds like the events surrounding this tragedy led her to disbelieve and start to deconstruct. Which is quite common in today's culture. People are hurt by the church and use that to fuel their argument that God is not real - when the fact of the matter is people are people. People will constantly disappoint us and let us down, that's why our faith should be rooted in a true relationship with Jesus and who He is above all else. No church is perfect, but I feel that they shouldn't have elevated her to leadership so quickly and should have instead focused on discipleship. We can be so consumed with church community that we neglect to develop our faith and fellowship with Jesus - and that should always come first. I still see pain in her eyes and I pray that she will find true healing and reconciliation.

[@lindanmtzhanna3253]

That’s why they didn’t want you to talk to him… He’s a Groomer! Pastors did the right thing!

[@llt8101]

Josephus mentioned more than one person named Jesus (it was a common name) but none of them did what the Christians say.

[@wlknonsonshine]

First, I want to thank Rachel for her story. Second. I'm sorry that she has had such great loss. Third, honest question...what did she honestly think God would respond to her being with this guy in the afterlife or heaven? She was in adultery & was in a position of leadership & leading worship. God wasn't in any of that. Fourth, I am a believer & I believe the Bible is the inherent word of God. However, I do believe this guy she was involved with manipulated her & used her & wasn't following Christ like he presented himself. Of course, he told her he loved her, he knew she would keep secrets for him & preyed on her more. She was his transitional person from his marriage. Imho he was keeping more secrets from her other than a motorcycle. I pray she finds the healing she seeks.

[@dreamzofhorses]

It might be inherent but it isn’t inerrant! If you read it carefully (all of it - there are many contradictions just within the gospels if you don’t want to look at any other outside information) you would know this. Many things in the Bible do not line up with historical and archeological facts. Believe what you want, just don’t use that as an argument for inerrancy.

[@RudeOptics]

I read this comment before listening to the whole thing....now that I'm done this comment causes me rage. This whole culture of cult shunning is toxic bull and has nothing to do with Jesus.

[@livehealthyfinishstrong]

Rachel, life is a journey and your journey is so interesting. Thank you for being willing to share.

[@RSA692]

Perhaps Rachel can benefit from listening to John Hamer, Centre Place.

[@stuartgerrard114]

I have tried to live a life based on compassion and empathy too, I have taken myself into nature daily but still life has become meaningless and for me impossible to enjoy. I see little purpose for existence having lost all faith. Life is one tragedy after another.

[@jeaninecookson167]

Here is the thing. Humans are flawed……it doesn’t mean that Jesus is flawed. People will ALWAYS disappoint.Any relationship that must be kept a secret…..probably should not be happening. Also…..there are 2 sides to every story. This is one persons side.

[@busheslouise]

Find a Bible believing Jew. Like Dr Michael Brown. I am a Bible believing Christian. As time goes on it very difficult to find a church. A messianic Jew...thier knowledge is incredible. I wish you the absolute truth Sista!! Much love❤

[@leahgarcia7761]

I’m happy and hopeful for Rachel that she is still willing to search. Yes, she made mistakes and unfortunately I think she was also exploited by church leadership in more than one aspect. In light of this she is moving forward as someone who has a heart to serve others while bearing painful scars. God’s grace is sufficient. God is ultimately the one who draws us and promises that we will find him if we diligently search for him with all our heart. He is not offended by our intellectual questions, after all, he created our intellect and invites us to “Come let us reason together”. Organized religion cannot replace personal intimacy with God…there are many ways to worship and we have to be so careful with all the business not to be drawn into building the personal kingdom of a leader rather than being a part of God’s kingdom. I believe knowing that we are unconditionally loved is what transforms us day by day and moment by moment into Christ’s image. Love is a powerful and life changing force! Paul said it well: “…And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge- that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.” I will be praying for Rachel…I’m so hopeful for her because already you can see God at work in her heart as she is being honest about mistakes, has concern for others, and has a desire to help others, all of which are God honoring. We are all sinners in need of a Savior. We all are recipients of His grace and forgiveness through faith in his shed blood on the cross. Praise him for this indescribable gift. Yes, life is a gift. Eternal life begins now.

[@TheTheologyZone]

I really enjoy this show and respect the views expressed. But why not invite an actual Christian apologist like Josh Mcdowell or his son Sean, or Lee Strobel, Paul Maier, Gary Habermas, Dr. Hugh Ross, Dr. James White, Dr. Dan Wallace, Dr. Darrel Bock, Dr. Craig Evans or a host of others. They have welcomed LDS apologists.

[@carlawarner972]

Let me add to the invitation of Christian Pastors: Greg Laurie, David Platt, Allister Begg, Jack Gibb, to name a few.

[@dannynyman9681]

Great with Jen!

[@lindanmtzhanna3253]

Rachel, YOU BOTH COMMITTED ADULTERY… that’s enough to have both of you step down! You’re NOT the victim! Seems to me that you want NOT to be held accountable for your actions! SIN IS SIN… Pastors HAD EVERY RIGHT TO HAVE YOU GUYS STEP DOWN! And I Hope & Pray, You’ve asked for Forgiveness! And I hope, he asked for forgiveness in his last breath! THATS GRACE! Young Lady, YOU SEEM VERY DAIVE… The Pastor was NOT being behaving as a Man Of God and his flesh was weak! I hope and pray you both have asked forgiveness

[@mrsspeech]

Please read The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel.

[@polishkabash4751]

Thank you for having Rachel! I’ve never been Mormon however I’ve deconstructed from my Christian faith 20+ yrs ago. My experience has been throughout my whole life as a believer and not, is the openness & non-judgment of secular/humanist/atheist persons. There are bad folks in all walks but I so love the acceptance, openness, intelligence and solid foundation in reality of all my non-believing friends and acquaintances. I so wish Rachel the best and hope she finds her peace and space she desires. Death sucks and life is short, good luck and all the best! Great show!

[@marleymae6746]

Thanks for sharing your story Rachel. This has been one of my favorite episodes!

[@susanwilliams70]

It's when you learn to love the questions & not need "for sure" answers that you learn to have peace! This is what I wish for you! (Agnostic Christian here...Jesus was real, but also very human & spiritual BUT not stuck on religiousness...condemned those who were such (New Testament).

[@livehealthyfinishstrong]

I believe all humans need “community”, BUT it shouldn’t be abusive, overly controlling or cultic. Example, I have recently watched videos about the FLDS/Warren Jeffs. In contrast I have watched many videos about outlaw biker gangs. The common denominator in these VERY different groups is the STRONG SENSE OF COMMUNITY! The need and desire for community can make us overlook all sorts of terrible behavior. Again, I believe humans need community, but finding a healthy one is a challenge. 😎

[@marjanahjaiyana5272]

I never have heard that term, worship leader.

[@michalklein5219]

She is putting all Christian's into one ignorant box. It's very sad how she is allowing herself to continue to be manipulated by the next "thing" that she has chosen to put her faith in.

[@nikkiwilliams86]

Did Rachel mention when she’s finds out the truth on Joseph Smith?

[@rhgrrrr]

Rachel - Al Anon might be helpful to you.

[@ScottBub]

Alcoholics Anonymous is another cult. It’s just another religion trying to strip you of your own identity and replace you with another.

[@ginafrancis4950]

rhgrrr YES!! I love Al Anon I was thinking the same thing. Al Anon teaches me how to live life on life’s terms and has made way more sense to me than anything I got out of Mormonism or any of the Christian denominations I checked out after leaving. It’s a practical program as well as spiritual and you can take what you like and leave the rest. Those words were like a balm. Coming from high demand Mormonism it was exactly what I needed to hear! Talk about serenity! And no god/Jesus required to live a happy and fulfilling life.

[@robpalisoc7625]

Hi Rachel, perhaps your purpose is to share your story with us. :) Thank you! I recommend you read Al-Anon books Courage to Change and One Day at a Time. Also, I suggest you check out Al-Anon group meetings. Good luck and I hope the best. Please take care.

[@curtiskupfersmith1918]

This is so off topic but does anyone know what her shirt says? Been trying to figure it out for over 2 hours now & still don’t have a clue 😂 Noir It’s what I’m?

[@wlknonsonshine]

Noire is what I'm wearing today. It seems to be a brand.

[@Rizer92]

Literally reading comments just for this 😂

[@gingercollier7949]

I listened to the first episode and am in the middle of this one and have so many thoughts. All I keep thinking is Rachel wasn’t spiritually mature enough to recognize the former worship pastor as a wolf in sheep’s clothing. They are both very much at fault for the secrets they kept from leadership. Rachel lied to get her job. My bet is the former pastor got caught with someone else and this was a pattern of behavior. If he was unrepentant they weren’t going to allow him back. That’s what a relationship with Christ and the Church is about. Also Rachel should have been removed from the worship team if she was sexuality active. We follow the 10 commandments and have sex outside of marriage is a sin. Even though she repented to leaders, she should have been repented to Jesus, and stayed celibate until marriage. Rachel was clearly never disciplined and I would say, never truly understood Christianity. Sadly that often happens in nondenominational churches, because the pastors don’t attend college seminaries and are making it up as they go. I will say, removing a pastor who is unrepentant can be a long process. I went though this with a former friend who was also my pastor. It took 5 plus years and it was messy. I believe I could see how prideful and narcissistic my pastor was becoming and when everything came out he denied it to a lot of people. I do hope that Rachel can find a good healthy Christian church, which I do think that church was trying to do. Sadly they didn’t care for Rachel once removing her from ministry like she should have been. Oh and even though someone is separated they are still married and her relationship would have been considered adultery.

[@rogandbingofbingalahtravel3680]

I am a Christian since 1975, obtaining a bachelor's degree in Theology. I was part of what became a mega church over the course of 25 years. For some insight regarding separation from those who are walking in accord with scripture (ie, divorce or having a relationship while still married) a good reference point is 2and Thessalonians 3:14 which says "If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed". On the other hand, there are scriptures that indicate the opposite such as Galatians 6:1 which says "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted". Christian's feel an obligation to obey scripture. After all, we are commanded to obey scripture. Each situation is judged differently, depending on the willingness of the person who is being shunned or helped in his or her weakness. It's a tough call because as a leader in the church, we are required to follow scripture to the best of our ability. The difference is those who stumble verses those who continue to go against scripture willingly. In my opinion, this pastor was not willing to follow scripture as the church interpreted it. Thus, he was not willing to follow the direction of the church. Sadly, he dragged you, Rachel, into his world of his own disobedience to the scriptures and his church. It's sad because you lost your faith because of it. Essentially, this man "roped you in" as you say and then "roped you out". I am sure he was a good soul but weak of heart. He needed love and perhaps wasn't getting it at home. Maybe he was a Type B and his wife type A..who knows? The whole story is a sad one but the reality is that we are all broken and need an incredible amount of grace over and over again. I hope the best for you and for the church, as a whole. We're all trying to do what's right and our own cobwebs constantly get in the way, regardless of our beliefs. I will say this, however. Grace and forgiveness should have been the first step in both situations, not putting out of the church and allowing people to say, I'm sorry. I have sinned. Then, take it from there. Not all Christian churches operate this way but human nature tends to, inside and outside of a church. A couple of books which support Christian theology, if I may suggest are "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" and "The Twilight of Evolution". Obviously, they are supporting the concepts of God and creation. That's a given. But, they are excellent resources supporting that premise. You're a wise woman, Rachel! I wish you the very best in your quest for truth and comfort as you continue to grieve loss!

[@danielladavis8705]

Thank you Rachel. Some of the details of your de-conversion were very different from mine yet ai very much related to your story.

[@cynthiajagneaux3949]

Rachel has such a sad story. She should not lose faith in God due to what happened between her & her boss. It was an adulterous relationship &!of course, the church had the ask her to step down . She can find a life in a Christian church. We are all flawed individuals . There was one perfect Person & it was Jesus. Rachel is young & if she allows God to - she will find the right man when the time is right.

[@jimbosnoberger9420]

If we have to hide it, it must be wrong.

[@deannapowell7237]

Thank God I figured out there is no hell....a podcast episode called "re-thinking hell" changed my life. Ugh, seriously. All we need to do is do some critical thinking and educate ourselves on the historicity of the Bible and of Christianity.....and we figure out it's all made up.

[@beautyforashes123]

What church did she attend? It sounds whacked from the start by the very description of the role of a worship leader and worship team alone! Then it only continues to sound more whacked.

[@jonycruz2430]

I’m going the hate saying this one day cuz I might fall as a worship leader into sin. But what the church did was a right call. Rachel seems cool but what she did was SO SO brutal considering “ushering in the presence” breaking code of conduct, taking another woman’s husband who is a patron and is part of the community of other people who love her. Like that betrayal of a sister to another sister in Christ. Damn. Just damn.

[@GabIsCalm]

1:20:15 looks like deconstructing from christianity is a lot different than mormonism…

[@BooThing14]

Oof. Im so sad for her and the man who was killed and for everyone really....

[@jasonwelle]

A recent episode from Religion for Breakfast (on YT) in collaboration with Esoteric talks about how Jesus wasn't even the only "miracle-working" rabbi from Galilee at the time. He was part of a broader phenomenon in the region. He also wasn't the first nor the last messianic claimant. Those facts rocked my faith foundations.

[@giuliantoneIIi]

This is the most unchristian behaviour I have ever heard of. Glad she got out.

[@nicoleheatherington4365]

Never heard Christians described as being in “sects”. …

[@jimbosnoberger9420]

No divorce still married. Just saying.

[@mpetershat]

This is typical at a evanglical church. Splits

[@blainefarnsworth5569]

That microphone works and had a planner, designer that created it. Same for the chair your setting on. Jet airplanes had a designer and a creator. The earth and all of us that inhabit the earth had a designer and a creator ( God) our creator. Man was unable to be perfect and not sin. God so loved the world that He sent Jesus to Redeem us back to Himself through our faith in Christs righteousness and Gods Grace on us. Its in the New Testament.

[@robpalisoc7625]

Hi Rachel, perhaps your purpose is to share your story with us. :) Thank you! I recommend you read the non-Christian books Courage to Change and One Day at Time. Also, I suggest you check out Al-Anon group meetings. Good luck and I hope the best. Please take care.

[@mayan9714]

What’s the difference between the crucifixion of Jesus and a painting of Jesus? It only takes one nail to hang the painting.

[@99blackbirds]

Look up JOSEPHUS and tell me who he was! Do your research! He was all bout CHRIST! some say otherwise but to me, it's so CLEAR & EVIDENT!

[@99blackbirds]

OK, Not all about CHRIST but he spoke of him enough to believe! It's a HUGE chance that he does EXIST!

[@99blackbirds]

Oh my gosh you lost someone in your life and your whole life is Grief and Bringing back alive! The Harry Potter Story! Rachel, you are OK just believe in CHRIST I know you still do! You can deny it but I know its not true! BARLOW GIRL & PLUMP & FIREFLIGHT we are all here!!!

[@chubbuck35]

No credible Christian apologist is claiming that Josephus is proof of Christ’s divinity. The only connection Josephus made was acknowledge that there existed a so-called Jesus and who was being reported to be the messiah by those who followed him, and that he was in fact crucified as a matter of record. The passage claiming Jesus IS the messiah is not credible and is discredited even by Christian apologists. The amount of evidence that Jesus EXISTED is as much or more than most historical figures we know about. It’s not a debate on whether Jesus EXISTED. The debate is how much of his teachings and miracles were actually his vs inflated stories made by later Christians. It sort of drives me nuts when someone is debating if Jesus even existed. The fact that there was an actual man named Jesus that walked around claiming to be the Messiah and was crucified is not debated among scholars. It’s his divinity that is debated. After my research I personally believe the evidence is pretty clear that Jesus’ divinity was a concept evolved by later Christians, like a legend.

[@gomerpyle7721]

He was a cult leader that just happened to be more popular than other cult leaders

[@massagewerks1734]

She is filled with absurd assumptions. It’s a crazy interview.

[@lindanmtzhanna3253]

There’s MORE to this story! NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE DIVORCE! Either he was a GROOMER

[@jimbosnoberger9420]

Still married.

[@michalklein5219]

And his wife had invited her and her sister into their home, ugh.

[@lindanmtzhanna3253]

YES, GRACE FILLED… Did YOU OR HIM ASK FOR FORGIVENESS?

[@blainefarnsworth5569]

Affairs with so called men of God or as mormans say anointed Godly men. Turns out the Godly men are just common men. There's a difference between perfect Diety and imperfect man in the world. Even the hierarchy inside and at the top of Godly churches. Turns out they are all just men that desire power and authority over others. Trust in Christ, He's Diety, He's perfect. 😮

[@lowlifegarage]

It is my personal opinion being from the non-denominational Christian faith that the pastor was afraid of how his brothers affair/problems would make him look. We are human. Regardless of faith. Regardless of role in said faith. People make mistakes. We are not perfect. That's just my take. I agree that if this was all brought out into the open, that the congregation would have understood that things happen. People are individuals. I do believe the pastor was in the wrong. But it's also not my place to say that.

[@CarolineAnandSiddiqui]

Biblically speaking the pastor was wrong. A person of authority needs to be of a good character. So him being removed from the place of authority is justified. But cutting him off from the congregation???? That's unbiblical.

[@lowlifegarage]

@@CarolineAnandSiddiqui agree 100%