Tony Williams: Control and clarity

[@HuckFinn212]

Tony Williams is still the state of the art of drumming!

[@drummersagainstitk]

What do you mean?

[@loucontino4804]

There will never be another Tony Williams. He was a shooting star. Just like Hendrix & Jaco. This man came into the world to turn music on it's ear. And he did . Rest In Peace Tony Williams, One Of A Kind.

[@timmckenna6943]

Totally agree!

[@Coastfog]

"Turn music on its ear" I really like that. :)

[@tomashavrda7148]

“be in control, all the time” amen

[@pacmanlp8876]

One of the father's of modern drumming. Spread his words is much appreciated

[@mletalien]

So happy I got to see him play live. One of the greats for sure.

[@rhythmfield]

That solo at the beginning…, Such fluidity, completely focused & in command yet totally relaxed. Watch carefully. This is one of the greatest drummers ever to sit at the instrument.

[@laurentiuolivian1861]

There is still someone you can still learn from today and i think he learned a lot from Tony's technique, although he never talks about his idols: Virgil Donati.

[@marko1970]

@@laurentiuolivian1861 Agree 100%, Virgil is amazing drummer who plays for the song, has chops, discipline, and an understanding of working with other musicians.

[@t3hgir]

@@marko1970 what a worthy final drummer to tour with Allan Holdsworth, he was surprised to be asked for the gig and he was already a huge fan of AH's music.

[@eelamite]

so relevant. rn for me personally. wrists way overworked n this went over my head a year back. so grateful to see this again and grasp it better

[@tyronesmith8250]

"I don't rely on bounce" - Thank You Tony Williams!!!

[@miker5233]

He's probably my favorite of all time definitely one of the best if not the best

[@troyjones2358]

The greatest to ever pick up the sticks. The most telling statement Mr. Williams makes “ I love the drums “. I was fortunate enough to see him at the old Concerts by the Sea in Redondo Beach California in the late 1980s.

[@spookybaba]

Tony still is my favourite drummer. Vinnie, an extremely close second 😍

[@peteryoung4974]

And me third?.. haha

[@Indoman_71]

"I do change it because I want to change it because I choose to change it, not because I can't help myself..." Love that. So many drummers to me it seems when they change, do so because of lack of emotional self control.

[@EricBaileyDrums]

"I used to practice only playing the cymbal for long periods of time"... I heard Mike Clark say that Tony used to sit down and practice four-limb unisons for hours at a time. It seems something all the great players have in common is that they put in enough time to absolutely master of the fundamentals of drumset playing. Mark Guiliana is another good example: "I still can't play eighth notes in time, so I still work on it"

[@BeTheDrum]

that's a great point and I agree 100%-it's quite clear that great drummers spent an insane amount of time patiently practicing the basics until they sounded good, before moving to complex stuff that made them unique. many of them even mention returning to basics in order to perform better. at a 1987 clinic in Austria, Tony Williams said "I don't practice anymore, but if I had time, I'd practice rudiments, singles and doubles".

[@brendonhester331]

Stork Legs lol

[@andym28]

There's a much greater benefit playing something for hours at a time than playing for minutes over consecutive months.

[@LoadingSet7]

@Stork Legs huh?!?

[@LoadingSet7]

Stork Legs HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! HAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAH aaaaaa ahhhh HAHAHAHAHA thanks for this. Made my day

[@Rockin_Ross]

I loved his comment about not changing drum sets for different music. That it’s the player, not the equipment. Such a talent taken from us WAY too soon.

[@bleedinggumsroberts3579]

He was all about "soon." I know black people usually age very well but in this video here he looks young. What a great raw talent at such a young age with Miles. He was nice enough to explain his ways to a crowd but he might go over the heads of some. Some if not most of us hang on his every word.

[@LibuttiG]

THANK YOU,MASTER,AND COMANDER

[@peterguidera7845]

Thank you for editing this down !!! I try to watch this clip at least once every few months. :-)

[@JA-io8nx]

Never forget the first time I heard "Fred" when I was a kid in the 70s. Game changer for me.

[@t3hgir]

what a tune!

[@billpeart]

I'll never forget the first time I heard "Fred" when I was a teen in the 90's.

[@frankmeenzen787]

Yes! The album Believe it and this song Fred are really game changer, not only for you! This soft gliding feel in the groove with so much swing and easiness, unbelievable. Chad Wackerman and Virgil Donati come very close to that quality in the groove!

[@miguelmerino7706]

ain't nobody got muscle to play without the bounce except for tony

[@graxjpg]

Miguel Merino and those with his discipline. Which is his most replicable quality.

[@cerestablet9934]

Good point but just to clarify he didn't say he plays without bounce he said he doesn't rely on it. Different things

[@billpeart]

@@cerestablet9934 Different drums and cymbals at different angles, sizes, and tensions make relying on rebound near impossible. You are correct in your statement.

[@robertdowler8105]

They also must know Dynamics,too,controlling the sound level with both hands. Thank you Sir for your very informative class.

[@Thjarkvaldur]

These videos you are posting are fantastic. Thank you and I am looking forward to the next one!

[@thelonious-dx9vi]

Tony played better than everybody else. Long live the King.

[@frederf69]

TW would not make that claim, no great player would; out of awareness & respect.

[@drummantvhg9490]

This is rare! Thank you for uploaded!

[@franks3531]

once in a lifetime 👍🏼

[@sonsauvage]

His personal technique philosophy makes a lot of sense as to why his playing has so much force behind it, very dynamic player but there's always that intensity there

[@randybrickson4290]

it's hard to overstate how insightful TW's comments are. Amazing that he's speaking off the cuff

[@graxjpg]

randy brickson when you have that kind of massive understanding of what you do, it would be nothing but stream of consciousness to describe it.

[@davidmaslow399]

Tony was such a talent!!!

[@zvensabri2533]

Tony Williams its the best drummer

[@danielwood877]

Awesome, thx for sharing

[@c.h.gamble2279]

Thank You....I enjoy your points of view

[@J410music]

Being able to play one thing for long periods of time and for me it's the cymbal. The recording Four and More is the ride cymbal.

[@peterdietz7234]

So, when he says "I use the hand, not the wrist (to raise the stick)" at around 2:40, what does he really mean? I would argue, that to raise the sticke you either have to move the wrist, the elbow or the shoulder. Honestly confused.

[@xenprovence6126]

Agreed. It’s best to temper what Tony says here with what he actually does in the video. That being said, after many years of pursuing a grip using mostly the thumb, first, and second fingers, I am beginning to see his point about gripping the stick with the last two fingers. If I may offer this observation… if you hold the sticks in an overhand matched position, explore striking a surface (holding the stick somewhat loosely) with minimal tension in your forearm, elbow, and shoulders. I try to make this the fundamental starting point these days with my grip, and it seems to be working. Also, would like to suggest this exercise… Get the application TEMPO for iPhone. Set the accelerando function to “bars” and begin with one strike to 1/4 note at 40bpm. Follow the ever increasing tempo with alternating strokes and watch how your grip changes to accommodate faster and faster tempo. By the time you get up to 200 BPM, you may notice that you have to hang on for dear life. This exercise clearly shows that any grip is never Constant.

[@Emlizardo]

Tony is certainly one of the greatest drummers ever, but it's best to ignore what he says about lifting his stick "with the hand, not the wrist." If the hand moves, the center of that motion is at the wrist. Also, if the hand moves, the muscles of the forearm contract to make that happen. Many of the best musicians aren't the best teachers.

[@360.Tapestry]

this falls squarely in my unknown knowns lol i developed my hands using french grip exercises, but when actually playing, my hands intuitively go to this grip, while thinking i'm still using the forward fulcrum

[@b.murenthaler]

Great Lecture from a GREAT ! ⭐⭐⭐⭐🥁

[@davidsotomayor8713]

How am I just seeing this video now? I just spent the past year or so working on my left hand grip as I was relying far too much on my thumb/pointer (although my right hand grip was solid.) I have finally been noticing just how much more control, power, and speed I have.

[@NotYoung3592]

I so miss this legend.....

[@esiegel2]

Love tony, he was my god when I discovered the 2nd qtet in the late 60's, and I was so excited to see the opening concert of the VSOP tour with the quartet and Freddie. But it took me a long time to appreciate the dramatic change in his technique, with the arrival of the big yellow gretsch monster kid. I'm still not that into it. But one thing that actually got much clearer in that transition was the way he held himself at the kit. His whole body is so alert and unified in his later playing, and his posture is remarkable. It looks to me that a lot of his power and speed comes from that core and the way he uses his WHOLE arm, rather than just the fingers, hand, wrists, forearms.

[@dasglasperlenspiel10]

Tony Williams, still!

[@51Percent]

Pretty much everything Tony ever taught me while I studied with him.

[@udomatthiasdrums5322]

still love it!!

[@laurentiuolivian1861]

The most important 5 minutes in the history of drumming and in the history of modern music, that we have the privilege to see and learn from, ever caught on tape!

[@kidzbop38isstraightfire92]

Yeeeaaaa I think you may be getting carried away a little bit there boss, but it was a good lesson nonetheless

[@noahpaul400]

The whole clinic is up on KZbin.

[@virgilrw]

Tony Williams was an #ENIGMA on drums! 😎

[@tommcfall1274]

The master

[@mikekelly7679]

I wish Tony would share some of the rudiments he was using between ride and snare.

[@t3hgir]

at the end of the day it's all singles and doubles baby. Flams are like italics vs normal font.

[@leocomerford]

Beware: on the evidence of his performances in the same video this talk comes from, it seems the grip discussed from 0:35 (and from 2:08) is how Williams played *only* when moving around the shells. When staying on the snare he played very conventional German-grip rebound strokes in the right hand (until well up in his dynamic range, when he finally switched to typical German-grip singles), and played traditional in his left. When riding he played very orthodox French-grip drop-catch. Plenty of bounce in both cases. And his all-single-stroke tom technique was in fact thumb-up, not German grip as suggested at 1:25! kzbin.info/www/bejne/bamYk3Svgdutpac&lc=UgiQoQwrnXXyA3gCoAEC.8R9FBT4oaRg93RQiVpsLOk

[@t3hgir]

great comment

[@slyphon]

It's interesting to consider that he may have actually physically been doing what you say, but mentally he was thinking about what he was doing in a fundamentally different way. He may have been visualizing his motions in a certain way that allowed him to get the control he wanted, even if it differed from what his hand was actually doing. These kinds of discrepancies are fun to think about when they happen :)

[@SuperDakiz]

This is so true.....he is using bounce and a kind of Moeller with his left hand....the opposite of what he thinks he is doing....this common in sports also....feel versus real etc.....still my fav drummer.....but only when he was playing small drums and dark cymbals....this period for me is a bit of a chops fest....not really into it....

[@mostsickestvideos4483]

brilliant thread

[@tomtsu5923]

Yeah I'm sure you have a better take on Tony's sticking then he does, get real

[@tomjones2348]

Wonderful! Unfortunately the camera person was not a drummer.....and didn't know to put Tony's hand into the shot during his talk.

[@thejawshop-AdventureRecording]

And he was a composer to boot!

[@michaelthomas4230]

It seems to me that perhaps tony played underneath he lifted the music .Totally unique, like none other...

[@gabrielmorin-beland1745]

How do you play with the hand without playing with fingers or wrist? I can't wrap my head around this one...

[@paulreuben7343]

Great

[@alexambroise111]

'Not the wrist but the hand' can someone elaborate? Not sure to see where or how you would separate both

[@bernardtapie1092]

Lock your hand with your forearm nad only use your fingers to move the stick

[@alexambroise111]

@@bernardtapie1092 Thanks!!

[@Samsgarden]

At some point in the late 60’s TW went from a ridiculously fast cymbal player to a heavy-handed jazz-rock player

[@TheEleatic]

Yes, and I don’t care for the change in direction. Hakim or Foster are more to my taste.

[@jonahmartinez4298]

Listen to Art Blakey, Chick Webb, Philly Joe, and even Elvin J! They were "heavy handed" for jazz players! Rooted in the African approach which was certainly different than the "snap crackle pop" of Joe Morello and Buddy Rich. Tony Williams took those influences a step further into what we now call modern drumming. Ginger Baker did the same- just listen to Toad from Wheels of Fire. Besides, speed doesn't mean shit! Concept is everything- Tony had tons of it. He played loud for a reason.

[@mattmarkus4868]

Samsgarden is heavy-handed meant in a pejorative sense? Or did you just mean he adapted to a style (i.e., something positive)?

[@Samsgarden]

Matt Markus Non - pejorative

[@mattmarkus4868]

Samsgarden cool, I agree! :)

[@miker5233]

Definitely one of the best of all times I don't understand back then they use CS head black. Heads on both sides the resident would that do as for sound

[@charlesdexterbrewer6586]

The 4 limb unison downbeat exercise is the perfect counter-part to all of the conventional triplet (quarter note triplets and 1/2 note triplets) exercises against the jazz ride cymbal pattern with 2 and 4 on the hi-hat. Try the Tony Williams exercise (unison downbeats) at 300bpm with extreme dynamics, and at 35bpm too. There's a finger control exercise I picked up from Ricky Sebastian; grasp the stick between the index finger and the thumb/thumbnail facing up-and bounce the stick with the middle ring and little finger on a practice pad. Utilize the entire hand when playing like Tony said so that there is an even distribution of responsibility throughout the hand.

[@BeTheDrum]

that's an awesome suggestion Charles, I'll try this out. I usually practice unisons with 2-3 limbs but rarely 4. The hand exercise you mention sounds similar (but not identical) to one suggested by Antonio Sanchez. Have you seen it?

[@charlesdexterbrewer6586]

I haven’t seen the AS version. I found out about the Tony Williams exercise from a friend who studied with John Riley in NYC, Riley studied with Tony. However, for a long time I didn’t know that Tony practiced the exercise as fast as he could. I didn’t know this until seeing the Mike Clark interview.

[@charlesdexterbrewer6586]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iaPSpqCar9pmmZY

[@BeTheDrum]

cool... I posted a few days ago a video on the AS exercise, thanks for reminding me of it! kzbin.info/www/bejne/bKfLanuwbMyLea8

[@brandonlee9791]

Yeh I love the drums there an amazing instrument?.

[@carmenclarke2889]

💚

[@fabiodisanto8705]

IL NUMERO UNO.

[@jazzpotato180]

He sounds like a very intelligent man

[@hinkemiki]

Amen

[@8w029]

Beast

[@gcharocks]

The only problem with holding the stick in the back fingers is that you can’t really utilize bounce to it’s full potential. For instance it’s not possible to do a buzz roll holding it that way. So rather than constantly switching grips every time you have to do a buzz roll, might as well grip the stick in the front. Not gonna argue with tony since it worked for him, but for me it doesn’t really make sense.

[@frederf69]

Its a basis for technique, not all of the time.

[@johnpborden]

Agree with your statement although I'd add that for me at least, I'm constantly varying where or how I hold or position the stick (probably subconsciously) depending on what I'm doing at any particular moment when moving around the kit. Not sure Tony is saying "use this technique all the time".

[@conradmason87]

Need more of this advice...much more...now going to change my technique of 20 years playing...because I want to.🥁

[@christianparsons6050]

I've got total respect for the man and his philosophy...even though I just don't get it😅 I just can't get into his playing as much as I see there is greatness there. I keep coming back to it but it just doesn't click, I don't 'enjoy' it. I'll keep trying though.😏

[@deanmigliori5566]

I was a Bonham guy thru and thru.Then I got hip Tony.

[@franks3531]

God love him

[@nathanwalsh3028]

Plays with a dexterity and fluidity of Buddy Rich but with the power of Wil Calhoun!

[@U2WB]

Nathan Walsh Not even close to Buddy Rich. Buddy had speed, precision, and a finesse that I don’t here here.

[@freelance_commie]

Buddy Rich is the most overrated drummer of all time. Dude was a clown stunt man personality who could shred. So what? Tony is a humbled, master who has explored the real depths of sound as a whole and human experience. He is a prophet. Rich was an asshole.

[@bobbycoltrane7552]

@@freelance_commie Agreed

[@noahpaul400]

U2WB kzbin.info/www/bejne/q3eme6aVjNumfZY sure about that? Same clinic. Check it out

[@Tanildes]

U2WB hahahahaha TONY HÁS ALL AND MORE

[@blueheat5503]

What on earth is he talking about? How do you lift the stick "using the hand" rather than the fingers or the wrist?

[@BeTheDrum]

I agree it's confusing, but the way I understand it is... Tony didn't like techniques that proposed *only* using fingers (with little wrist, like French grip) or *only* using the wrist (with little finger action) - I get that from 2:14. My impression is he thought the entire hand should be involved, controlling the stick at all times and keeping the mechanics as simple as possible.

[@notaazul]

I start to play with the grip he mention in the right hand, and the sensation is diffrent. when you have the grip point closer to the wrist, it takes less effort to the hand to lift the stick. its hard to explain, but try it! chris dave use the same grip

[@blueheat5503]

@@BeTheDrum You may well be right - maybe we just have to accept that there are some exceptional individuals who get to write their own rules when it comes to technique.

[@meekoloco]

BlueHeat 550 You May find some more insight from rudimental/marching instructors like on Vic Firth.com.

[@Frank1979Zappa]

@@blueheat5503 The natural talents are always the worst teachers, cause they just can't explain what they are doing as they just knew what to do by intuition. Same with Buddy, same with Vinnie. Just very philosophical thoughts from them, but no clear explanations like from Jojo Mayer.

[@billpeart]

He stated he "grips the stick very firmly"?

[@trevormcmanis]

I think while he held the sticks firmly, he still was not overly squeezing. That sort of tension would be difficult to execute smooth strokes as it would make all the muscles in the hand an arms tense, imo. I do not grip the stick in the front of the hand either, as he explained. I keep the thumb and index finger on the sides of the sticks, but I never curl the index finger underneath the stick. The middle finger is where my fulcrum sits. I am surprised he did not feel that he used rebound in his playing. I imagine he meant that he did not rely on bounce only to make his strokes. Playing “off” the drum head and not “through it” is essential to good form and freedom of movement. His playing was amazing and his technique was impeccable. I do understand what he meant by playing with a “wiggle” in the front of the hand. All my beginner students exhibit this method when they first begin to learn. They grip the stick with the thumb and index finger (curled under) only and leaving the rest of the fingers out of the equation. This is what I think Tony meant by playing Willi Nilly...

[@billpeart]

@@trevormcmanis I grip the stick as you do. I never looked at it as a "firm" grip, but the more I think about it, it actually is a firm grip. I agree with you on your opinion about his rebound. Explain the "wiggle" that you speak of please.

[@Samsgarden]

No discussion on TW’s abrupt departure from frenetic jazz cymbal playing to rock

[@freein2339]

my first teacher drilled that "bounce" thing on me....I had only one lesson with him...

[@makokan2000]

dynamics...restraint...space

[@kurtpatterson1296]

Tony Williams drum style is cyclical with rounded edges.Most drummers play in a linear fashion with sharp straight edges.Stevie Wonder plays drums in a similar fashion.

[@dynasticlight1073]

Good observation/analogy. The 'L' word really should be stricken from Drumming. Many yrs ago a lesson dude was Teaching it. I walked out ,rolled the eyes and did a twelve stroke on the steering wheel . Its B.S. literally and Tony would most likely agree.

[@sahbas4649]

CUE Elvin video.. . . . . the greatest drummer ever

[@jeffcashio3191]

Who is Mike guiliani?

[@226jimbo]

Jeff Cashio Mark Giuliani

[@Tanildes]

GuilianA

[@algernonblackwood1707]

The EYE of the HURRICANE that was Tony Williams!

[@viktormuerte]

Gone way top soon.

[@donaldnelson8347]

I guess it depends on how your bones and hand are shaped. My pinky and ring finger just don't bend that way that firmly. Why not rely on bounce, that's what drumming with a drum stick is .. No?

[@themikarenolds2910]

Jazz off the beging there amaze

[@nedgrant7718]

That’s how a katana (“Samurai sword”) is held, both hands, with the ring and little finger. Interesting... control and power

[@tommodeski8637]

He bounces for double strokes just like any other technique.

[@wjcolon]

"It depends on me and my technique."

[@Joesfosterdogs]

does ANYONE in the last 20 years teach this hand technique? i never heard anyone...he totally goes against everyone here...

[@r.b.8836]

Jeff Porcaro Groove check out Todd Sucherman

[@pwdrums1956]

Steve Smith Pathways of Motion addresses this.

[@Joesfosterdogs]

@@pwdrums1956 agree, saw that but who teaches it? who uses this as a primary grip on Drumeo or other? nobody I know of!

[@patwaller]

@@Joesfosterdogs I could be wrong, but i think it would be considered another one of those grips that's an option. So you learn it and apply when needed. I believe I saw Dom Famularo demonstrate it on Drumeo. Apologies if wrong.

[@patwaller]

Found this. Watch from 18 minutes in. kzbin.info/www/bejne/p3zUmalugs2ogpY

[@pugilisticfront6777]

toe toe willikee doin his thingy

[@biodhya1080]

Yes use hand

[@miker5233]

That's where you could tell a good drummer from an average trimmer one that relies on a rebound it's not enough free battle all the time but if you are lying control does it matter what surface you're playing on and he had that

[@frankburdodrums8984]

Tony "Control" Williams

[@killmoreturtles]

It's actually a bad idea to listen to most of these guys, and the reason why is because they simply don't understand how they play the way they do. The fact is, often the best are not very good teachers. He makes no sense when he says he does not play with bounce, when he clearly does. I also don't understand his comment about using his hands and not his wrists. You should have the wherewithal to know that just because you're very good at something, it does not mean you're very good at teaching and describing what you're doing

[@RocknRollkat]

Willy nilly ? Excuse me ? I've been playing with controlled bounce since 1961. There's always an excuse coming fro people who can't play that way. Bill P.

[@steponikchad9859]

Eeeks! 😂

[@Samsgarden]

I generally see professional advice as arrogance. Buddy Rich was prejudiced against match players. Play the way you want, experts are also foiled humans too

[@MrDavidFitzgerald]

This doesn't make sense. You can't "lift with the hand". You can lift with the fingers, wrist or arm.

[@adamimberti6948]

It makes perfect sense. He's saying instead of letting the stick pivot between his thumb and index (or) middle finger and using rebound to play the strokes he is negating/controlling the rebound by holding the stick in his hand and using his whole hand to play each stroke. It means you're using one technique no matter whether you're playing fast, slow, loud or soft. No larger wrist action for louder strokes and no isolating the fingers for faster or softer strokes.... one whole identical hand motion for everything.

[@rhythmfield]

Think of it like a conga player or hand drummer. They work with very little bounce/rebound. So a good hand drummer needs to use the entire hand and all of the muscle groups in the forearm at all times, whether playing super soft or loud. Similar thing. Of course: Tony did use natural bounce and rebound - but in a measured, deliberate way.

[@BeTheDrum]

@Adam and @greg -- totally agree, nicely stated!!!

[@MrDavidFitzgerald]

@@adamimberti6948 that's what is usually referred to as wrist strokes

[@MELONenSURPRISE]

Average stuff

[@crieverytim]

that solo in the beginning, no finesse

[@kevinjackson4457]

Show us how with a video of your own.

[@Tanildes]

Ok,poor kid

[@reasonsreasonably]

SMH. You listened to 15 seconds or whatever of a drummer playing and insinuate something about the drummer? Are you suggesting that Tony Williams didn't play with finesse????? Your comment is either pointless, or stupid. Both?

[@U2WB]

Meh

[@Tanildes]

U2WB Sai fora, pobre coitado 👊🏻

[@MELONenSURPRISE]

When he played it didnt sound very articulate . There's some hype around certain musicians , producers whatever and they are OK but nothing too special ,they have a way with people. Others are way better but careless of how to present and build their public image ,and they are easily forgotten except for few diehards who recognise their quality of musicianship

[@ColtraneTaylor]

Who are some of the other musicians?

[@chriscurtis8344]

ColtraneTaylor I’d be surprised if you EVER get an answer .

[@BradBreeckMusic]

rebuttal: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pJytoIePZax4bq8

[@rbtz07]

Not very humble... is he?

[@troyjones2358]

What are you talking about man? This man was good enough to play in one of the greatest jazz groups ever at the age of 17, pretty much invented jazz rock fusion in the late 60s, was an acknowledged master of his instrument, and influenced countless drummers in the last 60 years. Who are you to talk smack about Tony? If you don’t know you betta’ ask somebody.

[@edellis7691]

He is the Buddy Rich of those black cats cause Tony is good and Elvin and Max arent