Testing the Generon Nitrogen Membrane Filter

[@ExtractionsAndIre]

Love the Sciencemadness patch!

[@FredMiller]

Great segment and many thanks to Generon for donating one of their porducts to the cause. I think a lot of viewers eyes were opened on this one! Keep up the good work!

[@HomemadeChemistry]

I want one of those very badly now!

[@stamasd8500]

These are used I believe (among other uses), in medical oxygen generators for people with lung disease. These generators usually peak at about 5L/min O2. Now, a rule of thumb that's used in respiratory therapy to calculate the percentage of oxygen delivered by a certain liter flow goes like this: you take the normal percentage of oxygen in air (for convenience rounded to 20%) and for each liter/minute of supplementary oxygen, you add 4%. So air supplemented with 1L/min is 24% O2, 2L/min corresponds to 28% and so on. 5L/min ends up being 40%, which coincidentally is the maximum % of the permeate when set for 95% purity N2 according to the specs. :)

[@monsterrodvonhugen]

Where did you find the oxygen content of the permeate specified? I don't see it in the spec sheet at kzbin.info?v=4-bbAwoG4Z8&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbDFha1FaWFdDSEdTbF80dWJROTRacGs0OGRJUXxBQ3Jtc0trSTFwU0szekpERHlRZ2RhbFIzV3Q4Q2cxV05SZ3c0UG5oZy1hRjNENWxHeVRDUkhUTnAyR3hSdUpuV0NZSUV3YnZ6NTRrdGFwV0RpLU53ZVNwNm91YUM1b29ZQWpCLXlFYWxzSU8tdXpkTWo1X09vUQ%3D%3D&event=video_description&q=https%3A%2F%2Fgeneron.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F10%2FD-MM-210-0717.pdf Or did you get it by calculation from the nitrogen flow rate and air recovery rate?

[@SirHackaL0t.]

As oxygen only makes up roughly a quarter of air volume I think you need to extend the purging time by a factor of four to completely fill the cylinder with O2.

[@AmaroqStarwind]

I came up with an adaptation of this technology that would be pretty awesome, IMHO. *Forced Induction Gas Separation:* 1. Suck in high-volume/high-pressure air (forced induction required) 2. Separate nitrogen and water vapor (two stages of membrane separation) 3. Send oxygen-rich air to engine on intake stroke (to increase combustion efficiency) 4. Send nitrogen to exhaust manifold during compression stroke (to keep turbocharger spooled up) 5. Send water vapor to engine during power stroke (to cool down the engine) Extra; - Membrane efficiency can be enhanced with mixed ionic and electrical conductors.

[@douglasmckinley-sr1507]

To find the percentage Oxygen would recommend using an Oxygen Scavenger/Absorber. Takes about seven day for an Oxygen Scavenger/Absorber to remove all of the oxygen; however will give a more accurate measurement.

[@aga5897]

Great video, awesome Generon filter. You're welcome !

[@jonessenoj6753]

The front Cowell of a jet Engine has loads of tiny holes !!! I'm guessing a giant version of this ! Near the Fan section !!!!

[@Njs1211]

Thank you very much...

[@NevinWilliams71]

Perhaps try burning "0000" super-fine steel wool as a fuel; it doesn't produce CO2 as a byproduct.

[@mrhomescientist]

That's an excellent point; it uses up oxygen but produces another gas to replace it, which would throw off my results. I did try another experiment where you let iron rust in a bubble in an upside-down measuring cylinder, which is usually done with steel wool. I used a Hot Hands pack to make it go faster, since that's very fine iron powder. It worked good for air but for some reason failed for the enriched oxygen stream...

[@DanielSMatthews]

You can probably ignite it with an induction coil too, or a laser as others have suggested.

[@swedishmapper6235]

wow...thank you...if we only could fit in a car...we would get at least 40% efficiency instead of present 30%....all the best

[@slowbrothe1st481]

This seems like a much better alternative to oxidizing agents which have to be bought continuously.

[@jhyland87]

I _finally_ got my hands on one of these :-D

[@brianzar1943]

Hello, I am a subscriber and I tried to watch your video on gas purging but KZbin didn't allow me since it's private. Is there a way that I can watch it?

[@geekswithfeet9137]

Co2 takes up the same space (ideal) as o2, theoretically it shouldn’t reduce in volume, the reason this works is because the co2 can dissolve in the water. For this reason shouldn’t using a weak solution of NaOH to sequester the co2 to drive it forward?

[@j_sum1]

That is some awesome gear. What fun to play with. You didn't say much about water vapour in air. I know it is not an issue for you using dry canned air but it is a significant matter if using a compressor. I think the higher O2 in the permeate when set at 95% is most easily explained by goinng back to the diffusion of gas in the filter. If the filter preferentially diffuses oxygen and the gas throughput is high then the retention time in the apperatus is low. That leaves little time for nitrogen to diffuse through and therefore there will be less. Testing for O2 in the manner you did... I think you need some stoichiometry to be accurate since you will be producing gassepus CO2. It should also be possible to calculate the permeate concentration from the retentate concentration and flow rate. If you can get another flow meter that might be worth a try. Or alternatively test the permeate and use this to confirm the retentate calibration chart. Awesome stuff. And as always, nicely presented. J.

[@annelieseocallaghan801]

Brilliant sciencemadness patch!

[@mrhomescientist]

Thanks!

[@kristofferolsson2632]

Brilliant video! Thank you :)

[@manw3bttcks]

At these flow rates isn't bothering to get rid of the O2 at a "safe location" a bit of overkill? I'd think it would be fine to just eject it to the room. You're probably talking about a normal room with a HVAC/Heating system that's mixing the air around to the rest of the building.

[@mrhomescientist]

Probably. Generon recommends leading it out of the room, so I figured I might as well just in case.

[@samsungtv4u]

Is there anything similar to make co2

[@pu8209]

I want to buy this membrain can you help me with that

[@mrhomescientist]

I'd recommend going to Generon's website. I don't work for them, I just tested their product.

[@OctIce]

Thanks for the video MrHomeScientist. Can you do the same with oxygen filter membrane module?

[@InDepthScholar]

I'm wondering if you can set up a way that'll filter out most Elemental gases and certain common gases like CO2, the purposes for storage of high Purity Gases and a liquid form such as liquid oxygen and liquid nitrogen solid carbon dioxide Etc. Any idea how to set up a system that you can take atmospheric air and separate essentially everything except for certain Trace gases like CO or radon.

[@chimbuzi1]

whats the rate of output for this 2.10 module?

[@SivaSankarBalanSSSB]

Can you make a video on the working of the Nitrogen member filter? Can we use Nitrogen gas for cooling water? I'm using a commercial 5 ton cooling system in my industry for cooling water but the problem is, it is heating the surrounding too much. While discussing about the cooling system's performance with my friend, he gave me an idea to use Liquid Nitrogen but the issue is the local availability of liquid nitrogen. I just need to know that is it possible to reduce the temperature of water using Nitrogen gas? If it yes, I can make use of the Nitrogen member filter as I have a air compressor which can compress the air upto 10 bar . Thanks for the video, it's so great to see the way you test the separated gas and it is very helpful.

[@mrhomescientist]

I can't really comment on industrial applications, but cooling with gas is absolutely possible. That's how refrigerators work. We also use a cryocooler at work that uses helium gas. There's ways to make your own liquid nitrogen from air if availability is a concern. For specific questions about this system, I'd contact Generon directly.

[@a7med7alem49]

How can I get this technology I have graduation project and I want to remove nitrogen from air

[@mrhomescientist]

I would email Generon directly.

[@a7med7alem49]

@@mrhomescientist Thank you

[@manw3bttcks]

Why the 10 year limit? Do the fibers rupture over time?

[@mrhomescientist]

I believe so, yes.

[@fuxorfly]

Can you run the retentate or permeate back through the filter to go even higher in purity?

[@monsterrodvonhugen]

Of course, but because the output is less than the input, you'd need to do something like run it from air to fill a cylinder, run it from that cylinder into another cylinder, etc. and use the product when you go to the desired purity. If you bought a concentrator designed to produce those higher purities it would be better optimized and less of a hassle.

[@ChrisSudlik]

I can't find ballpark pricing or sourcing on these whatsoever, has anybody had better luck?

[@mrhomescientist]

You might have to send an email to Generon directly. They were great to work with and very responsive when I contacted them. I got to talk to the inventor of the technology!

[@ChrisSudlik]

@@mrhomescientist I had a professor intimately involved in their early manfucaturing process but he passed a couple years ago. Just trying to figure out the process outside him

[@weizhuu]

thx man!

[@infinitebeing1119]

Is it possible to use this system with fuel cell module?

[@whatelseison8970]

In what way? If you mean to purify the O2 there are better ways. This really is designed for generating N2. The O2 is just a byproduct.

[@arjunts8712]

Wat about the other gases in air? Wat happens to it?

[@Skandalos]

What does it do to water vapor?

[@AZ-bf2yc]

It doesn't filter out water vapor, you need to dry your compressed air first.

[@rakinkazi9780]

At around 16:00 did you get that idea from the ammonia fountain experiment?

[@mrhomescientist]

It's very similar, true. I did find a version of this experiment specifically meant to test oxygen percentage. Maybe they got it from the fountain?

[@rakinkazi9780]

mrhomescientist hmm that's actually an interesting question. I actually came to know about this from periodic video's latest experiment.

[@piranha031091]

Oh boy... I'm sorry, but there are two huge mistakes in your video. First off, putting a volatile fuel in an oxygen rich atmosphere, in a glass container, and throwing a match in is a *bad* idea. You're lucky it didn't end up with glass shrapnel in your face. (I've done it in the past with ethanol in plastic bottles, lighting them with a fuse : they _really_ go boom! The one thing that must have saved you here is either that the vapors didn't have time to accumulate enough, or your oxygen concentration. But you took a serious risk.) Then, combustion isn't just consuming the oxygen. You're also making gaseous combustion products, like CO2. In fact, if you're burning ethanol, you're making 2 moles of CO2 for each 3 moles of oxygen you consume. (and 3 moles of water vapor, but that should condense) So, I don't think your results tell you anything about the oxygen volume consumed, just the hot gas volume that got out before you could put the plug back on. (which should indeed be greater with a more oxygen rich atmosphere, as the combustion would be faster. But certainly not quantitative...)

[@unpairedelectron2886]

@@mrhomescientist Just wanted to let you know that the explosion limits (LEL and UEL) are given as a percent by gaseous volume, and not by liquid. Therefore, for 630mL volume you just need 20.8ml of ethanol vapor for it to be explosive, which is approximately 0.04ml of liquid or just a few drops (assuming an expansion ratio of 1 to 500, which is already rather conservative).

[@whatelseison8970]

Perhaps affixing a burning strip of metal to the underside of the cap somehow (maybe a strip of magnesium in a little basket) could have worked better. Although I suppose Mg also burns in N2. Given a bit of time; say a day or 2, metallic sodium or potassium would also probably react with most of the oxygen even without ignition. That would probably need a better seal than ground glass though.

[@piranha031091]

@@whatelseison8970 Steel wool would have been the way to do it.

[@AmaroqStarwind]

Could this technology be adapted to an air intake system for a car? Also, what about a similar separation system that takes water vapor out of the air and sends it somewhere else? I want to implement these so that an engine can receive additional oxygen (and less humidity) to burn fuel more efficiently. Then water vapor can be injected after the fuel has nearly finished combusting, cooling the engine down. Meanwhile the stream of nitrogen can be used to keep the turbocharger spooled up.

[@shedtime_au]

Yeah, right. Where do I get one that doesn't cost a fortune? My needs are about an order of magnitude lower than this flow rate.

[@sholbaman1463]

What happened? Why havent you been uploading recently?

[@mrhomescientist]

Edgy Boy Eh it's nothing out of the ordinary really. Sometimes I'll go a full year between videos; depends on what else is going on. Currently I'm playing with molten metals! I could post an update on that. It wouldn't really be up to my normal video standards though. I didnt record a lot of it since it's all new to me.

[@flanflanjp_]

Consider using a laser pointer to light to combustible material, and keep it in there for the duration of the experiment. Burning the ethanol also creates carbon monoxide. Also, you were peaking the microphone. Very cool video nonetheless. Appreciate your work.

[@mrhomescientist]

Laser pointer is a great idea. It'd have to be one of those super powerful ones but that definitely sounds doable.

[@stamasd8500]

I have one of those, a 1W (theoretical) 405nm laser. I got it from ebay a couple of years ago, think it was about $60 or so. It's not really powerful enough to light wood even if focused steadily on the same spot for a couple of minutes (and it shouldn't be on for more than a couple of minutes at a time). But it will set off matchheads instantly. Now, that will release gases of its own when lit so it would skew your final volume. It may work - haven't tried but it may be possible - with other flammable substances that don't release extra gases when lit. I'm thinking magnesium powder for instance.

[@lonewolfszc]

If you have the contacts to buy an air cylinder, why not just buy a nitrogen cylinder? To me the utility of this device would be to bypass the gas companies, who usually won't sell to homegamers.

[@mrhomescientist]

lonewolfszc Depends on your usage rate. If you need a lot of nitrogen on a regular basis, making it straight from air is a great option. You'd want an air compressor for that, of course; then you wouldn't have cylinder expenses. For my short test, renting an air cylinder was much simpler.

[@agonzal0]

Is mrhomescientist the same guy as mrteslonian?

[@mrhomescientist]

Never heard of him!

[@PeterPete]

I don't think oxygen is a constituent of air at all - Imo if pure oxygen was present in the test tube from the permeate stream at 15:30 then the wooden splint should have remained lit when pulled out of the test tube. What I think you produced from the permeate stream was a very weak oxygen like air but it wasn't oxygen because oxygen is supposed to be an element and be the same in every instance where it is found!!! Additionally, according to the science (cough cough) the membrane doesn't allow nitrogen to permeate through therefore the gas in the test tube from the permeate stream should really have only contained oxygen and some very tiny negligible trace amounts of CO2 (this is assuming the compressed air cylinder didn't contan any water). But the splint ought to have relit and remained lit when withdrawn from the test tube!! Afterall, according to the science, oxygen can only be oxygen right? Your demo does promote my view in that oxygen is only dry concentrated air and comes about as a direct result of processing air in its entirety which is what you did. You even admitted that the splint didn't relight very well because the permeate stream wasn't 'concentrated' enough.

[@JimSmithInChiapas2]

_"I don't think oxygen is a constituent of air at all"_ Well, you also claim that it's a fact that iron is the only element that attracts magnets. 🤣🤣🤣