Are Tutors Bad For Commander? | Commander Clash Podcast 8

Are tutors bad for the Commander format? The crew argues the pros and cons to tutors in Commander, including whether it goes against "the spirit of the format."
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[@CarronBarboza]

Richard savagely calling all of em out for not playing battlecruiser is the funniest thing I've seen today.

[@CorsairJoshua]

"It's like saying Snapcaster beats is aggro." is such a 10/10 line from Richard.

[@onlyRicky_x]

"It feels wrong playing a deck poorly" he says when the optimal choice is avoided in favor for drawing cards 🤣

[@valroy4859]

"But the optimal choice is always to draw cards" - Seth, probably

[@Grinthex]

But drawing more cards is the optimal choice.

[@TheGorick]

There is differmt between i like this play more and it still a good play, and well this is the best play and I would like it, but its not fun so ill do something bad

[@chrisporter4993]

Unless you have a line of play to win, or are absolutely in a position to lose imminently, drawing cards is very rarely a sub-optimal choice.

[@oafkad]

Seth bringing the brutal truth near the end there haha. "Are you winning because you played Birds or are you winning because you played some of the best cards printed in magic + birds?"

[@regail7143]

Richard putting them in their place gives me life. They're out here complaining about consistency issues when Tomer plays combo every week.

[@Spaced92]

I don't see why you can't argue for the health of the format when Tomer doesn't really play unhealthy decks. He's not exactly playing the most consistent combos.

[@adamfiliatreault3393]

Tomer plays fun combos. There are others on the crew who only play disruption and grief cards, making the games so un-fun

[@regail7143]

@@Spaced92 Niv mizzet, ashaya, galazeth,... to name a few

[@regail7143]

@@adamfiliatreault3393 disruption is important. Grief cards are pretty much only played my crim

[@adamfiliatreault3393]

@@regail7143 and they only ever seem to go at one player. I think that's why I find it so frustrating, because I've been on the receiving end of tunnel visioned hate before

[@Infernoman64]

When was the last time you won through combat? - Richard I see the rest of the crew didn't have a counter for that heh...

[@Jarvis_Moonbeam]

Their responses to how Crim enjoys playing Commander is why he was effectively house banned this season. It is also why Crim's play style is my favorite out of the crew. He is actively trying to interact with the table and actively making them work for their win cons. Everyone else at the table just gives them the greenlight and says go for it.

[@ajespers426]

If a tutor is always going to get one or two things, I won't play it, or more likely I wouldn't build that deck in the first place. I love Search for Glory because it finds a huge variety of things (removal sagas, legendary synergy pieces, snow dual lands) but it's still limited and doesn't feel broken at three mana. Really hope it stays cheap enough to keep putting in my 100 dollar decks

[@Liteyears11]

'Tutor tutor: Search your library for a card with the word "tutor" in its name, reveal it and put it in your hand, then shuffle your library.'

[@babassoonist557]

What is this yugioh?

[@zztzgza]

You know some people have tutored for a tutor in a game somewhere lol

[@cephalosjr.1835]

@@babassoonist557 In Yugioh the equivalent of that card would never be printed.

[@darkrai205]

me playing kess storm deck tuturing a tutor would be rather viable option

[@winter945]

@@cephalosjr.1835 Ever heard of zefra?

[@idontwantone1108]

The amount of fear/hate for opposition agent is unreal. I get that he gets you once then no one tutors until it's gone but you have 3+people trying to kill one creature so you can tutor a card but if you are saying this one creator ruins you're entire game plan maybe just maybe your deck building is the issue.

[@Ubermunki3]

I think it was a mistake because it punishes precons and equivalents playing shitty cards like evolving wilds

[@stronggreenflame]

I really think there should be hate for land ramp.

[@LogoMotive11]

They printed Confounding Conundrum and ever since I have been dying for more effects like that for other colors. Green needs to chill out

[@hammernnaila7031]

It's called Armageddon and everyone thinks it's unfun. Including the clowns at WoTC.

[@ruudvanlaarhoven5776]

@@hammernnaila7031 Armageddon punishes nongreen decks way harder than the decks that are designed to put lands into play. Rebuilding after a full land wipe is easier when you Cultivated last turn. Hate for land ramp is search hate. Leonin Arbiter, Aven Mindcensor, Opposition Agent, Widespread Panic, Stranglehold, or the aforementioned Confounding Conundrum. Those will punish the Kodama's Reach players a lot more effective than Armageddon, and that without the other players getting furious at you for bringing the game to a halt.

[@ianmcabee8036]

@@ruudvanlaarhoven5776 nope other colours should have a few mana rocks which sit around on the battlefield which is way better than having access to land ramp to draw once you hit a few other lands

[@adognamedsally]

The thing that really got me into commander is how crazily diverse the games were even playing with the same deck. When you only draw 20 or so of the 100 cards in your deck, and all of those cards do somewhat different things, the permutations of your games are crazy diverse. And pair that against other people playing their own set of permutations and each game becomes really interesting. Once you start adding redundant effects, adding card draw, and adding tutors, you cut that variance down from 1/5 to like 1/2. It always feels bad to nerf yourself (in any game, honestly), but often I find that the nerfed version of the game is more fun. I play Path of Exile a lot as well, and I find the SSF (no trade) game mode to be more fun because you don't have access to the power that exists when you can trade with other players. When I play Final Fantasy games, I always impose some extra limitation on myself like not being able to use items or whatever because it forces me to win with strategies other than just "mash x to win". Limitation tends to breed more creativity, and leads to a more varied experience. I think, at the end of the day, variety is more fun than power and consistency, even though the idea of making a super strong combo can be appealing to our brains initially. But this highlights an interesting divide. For players that aren't as good at the game because they just don't play it as much as a hardcore player, "mash x to win," and "buy the powerful item," and "combo win" type of gameplay is appealing because it is one of the obvious powerful things that they can be doing in a world that is difficult to understand due to all the complexity and billions of cards that exist. When you don't entirely understand the system/landscape you're playing in, I think finding one obviously powerful thing and latching on to it can be a nice way to center yourself amid the turbulence of confusion that is a complicated game like Magic. But once you play the game for a while and you're familiar with all the typically powerful things that are possible, you start to seek more creative ways to play the game, to exploit the mechanics that are rarely exploited.

[@amberfox8398]

Hey guys, fist off love watching your videos! So I think tutors are good for the format, like rich said it’s not fun playing off the top, and they can be great for answering threats. I think this is great, helps prolongs the game and give everyone a chance to continue fighting for the win or a chance to pop off. I do see the problem with tutors, but I think most of the issues can be fixed by adding more anti tutors like opposition agent. I do think wizards should make more cards like opposition agent. But maybe not as strong as it. Just cuz using an opposition agent on some one just doing a evolving wilds or other fetch land feels bad. Maybe make an anti tutor card that specifically doesn’t hit land tutors. Also make anti tutor in more colors maybe all of them. Just my thought, thanks for sharing your. Looking forward to watching more of your videos :)

[@Gingerbreadley]

I think they are fine the issue is that people end up playing broken tutors in lower powerlevel decks. Because they think that they don’t do anything themselves players are more willing to play them in lower tier games. Demonic and vampirc are too strong for your average table diabolic isn’t.

[@Kryptnyt]

If the selection of cards your Demonic can grab are generally lower power level, the Demonic Tutor itself becomes much less good. For an extreme example, a Grizzly Bears that costs 2GB is not really a good play. If you're not tutoring up "I win the game" then you're just reaching into the toolbox which is fun (aside from paper shuffling and etc time wasting)

[@Gingerbreadley]

@@Kryptnyt if the best card you can get is a bear you are in a deck where black lotus would be bad. Even the most timmy decks have some big 10/10 trample creature to grab or a 9 mana wrath or some over costed draw spell. All of them can be game winning in certain situations even if they suck in general. Having access to different types of cards is what makes a tutor strong

[@Kryptnyt]

@@Gingerbreadley Yes but the tutor is still less strong if you're not getting a combo piece with it, in fact they improve the game when you can grab your card draw or mana ramp at the right points in the game. They smooth out the curve and make things feel organic.

[@mjvane46]

I love how they are complaining about land ramp being stopped, but noone mentions how stony silence, vandalblast and collector ouphe just stop all artifact ramp

[@Fromaginator]

Despite it being every second week I always forget and am very pleasantly surprised by the notification (shout out to clicking that bell icon)

[@ashm6416]

As someone who just built a Captain Sissay deck.... damn tutoring every turn takes a long time!!

[@ivogclan7033]

Can this just be a 2 hour podcast?

[@SilverKarlov]

I know that if tutors were gone, I would have a MUCH harder time playing my mono-white Darien deck. There’s really not much in the way of card draw in white, so that deck relies pretty heavily on skullclamp and mentor of the meek.

[@olvynchuru1663]

I think we should make the distinction between using tutors for consistency (there's one super-powerful card you always tutor for) and using tutors for versatility (you have a toolbox of cards that are good in different situations, and you tutor for the best one for the current situation). Most of the criticism of tutors is about tutors being used for the former (which lowers variance) rather than the latter (which doesn't lower variance much because you're tutoring for a variety of different cards). For example, say I resolve a Profane Tutor in my Mirri the Cursed Voltron deck. * Are there a ton of scary creatures on the board? Search for Damnation or Mutilate. * Is there some enchantment like Dictate of Erebos that I absolutely need to deal with? Search for Feed the Swarm. * Is there some land like Maze of Ith that I absolutely need to deal with? Search for Field of Ruin. * Do I have Mirri out and I just need to do some more damage? Search for Nightmare Lash. * Is my hand empty while I'm not in any particular danger of dying? Search for Necrologia. * Do I just need more mana? Search for Sol Ring.

[@MrMalorian]

New white enchantment: "Players can't search their deck for non-land cards"

[@about99ninjas56]

This should just be a rule or variation of commander.

[@jordangroblewsky2087]

"if a player would search their library for one or more cards, they reveal those cards. If any of them are non-land cards, that player shuffles those cards into their library instead of putting them anywhere else."

[@chasecollins5958]

I felt attacked when he sad "who would even play Draw go decks smh" *me slowly raises hand*

[@ThunderousChemQ27]

Talking about Opposition Agent being super prevalent is deceptive. Most causal players don’t run it, EDH is a primarily casual format. What you see on EDHREC is by and large enfranchised or more competitive players, because those are the people who actually upload their decks online. What you see on there is not indicative of what people actually play.

[@MasterDoctorBenji]

However at large events and game stores you are going to run into these players. You can say your argument about any format. Well kitchen table players don’t do that. The problem is the direction of the format means the growth will come in ways that don’t include the actual casual players. When Susie likes Commander and decides to go to a commandest or night at the lgs. She will face these cards and either adapt, bringing them back to the kitchen and forcing her group to adapt as well. Or be turned of the larger format limiting growth.

[@cablefeed3738]

I play 5 tutors in my decks I just don't have any combos in my deck so they all tutor for interaction or value cards. Solution: unless you and your play group both find it fun don't place stax or 1-3 card combo decks. ( I'm so shocked 😲 )

[@jacksunflare]

"The spirit of the format" is such a loose and vague thing to base any argument on. The long time veteran with dual lands vs the new player with a precon have a very different perspective on the "spirit." The term gets thrown around so much that it has lost all meaning.

[@oafkad]

I somewhat disagree just because it is clear that variance is the base goal of the game mode. Otherwise it wouldn't be singleton. While a lot of things could be debated. There is literally only reason you'd make a singleton format. Tutors, especially the ones without restrictions, are perhaps the only thing that breaks that. Everything else (like MLD or Hullbreacher style cards) is more of a playgroup to playgroup thing.

[@jacksunflare]

@@oafkad I don't think true "singleton" has been clear for years. Look at mana rocks, ramp spells, card draw, value enchantments, and even big beater creatures. They've become uniform, the variance on them is more of an after thought than true variance. You almost never have only one effect tied to a single card, we're already pretty far past true singleton without even counting tutors. So I think saying tutors are the one thing that breaks that is simply un-true.

[@thetimebinder]

Players could run dozens of tutors a decade ago. The RC didn't think they were against the spirit of the format back then.

[@thekid5220]

@@oafkad I'd say the existence of Commanders themselves somewhat contradicts your point here, sure its a singleton format but we have access to our decks key piece at all times. That's a massive bump in consistency. I'd argue most players dont play edh because its singleton, I'd argue that most players play because it's a "commander" format. So while tutors may go against one "spirit" of the game, it's singleton nature, they actively support another. Of course too many can lead to issues but as things stand, at least from my point of view, tutors serve to accentuate an enjoyable aspect of the format.

[@aaroncorsini6165]

What I really like about opposition agent is that it is one of the only answers to landfall decks and it shuts dpwn demonic tutor.

[@jasonholmes5714]

Yes. I think it’s great for that reason. I would never be mad at someone for playing Opposition Agent. If you get stung by it, kudos to the one who played it. (Hullbreacher can go die.)

[@jor-elmasterofscheduling2002]

Opposition agent is garbage, NOT because of it's effect but because it was printed in the only colour that can force other players to search. The Chaotic nature of the card places it more into red then any other colour. Also same thing goes with Hull breacher, making a more easily abused parter of veils combo was idiotic at best and definitely a colour shifted white card. I'd like to see more of their effects just not as obvious chase cards for competitive colours.

[@Tvboy777]

How does Opposition Agent answer Landfall decks? Majority of broken landfall decks are Oracle of Mul Daya/Exploration clones + Crucible + Fetchland, which OppoAgent does absolutely nothing against.

[@Jarvis_Moonbeam]

@@Tvboy777 Agent stops the Fetchlands. They also stop any of the ramp spells that aren't just cards that say you may play an extra land this turn.

[@aaroncorsini6165]

@@Tvboy777 I think you got your answer. It stops landfall decks no matter what.

[@RyuPlaneswalker]

Tutors are not bad..until you get to a critical mass of them. Look at land Ramp cards, Imagine if Black had as many variants on Diabolic Tutor as Green does with Explosive Vegetation. Having effects repeated en masse is really bad for commander and waters down the format.

[@MAXXimizer]

So, just out of curiosity, why not push for a Commander Draft format? It could work similar to Hearthstone's Arena where you pick from one of a few commanders, then draft from that commander's archetype (aggro, storm, control, etc) from a large pile of diverse cards (in paper this could be a large cube pile for each set of Commanders). I believe that would be closest in-line with what these guys are saying about "the spirit of Commander" by using draft to lower the overall power of cards.

[@boneheadcycler1412]

On the Opposition agent topic. I think any one of a few things would have made it more balanced. Either it only hit's non-land searches, or it doesn't have flash, or it doesn't allow Opposition agent's owner to play the spells. Also, it doesn't fit the flavor of black; where did flash come from? Where did the control effect come from? Where is the negative effect that is normally attached to black (losing life, sacing a creature, etc.)?

[@bubblehulk7647]

Funny Richard mentioned Baneslayer Angel. I saw one in the dollar bin last week and it hurt.

[@peytonmillner6417]

My opinion, make companions or backgrounds etc, something in the command zone, that requires you to follow a certain rule, that are stax pieces vs certain strategies. For example. Rule of law in the command zone, costs 2. But requires you to have 8 or less instants. Bam. Or stoney silenece. But only in a deck with 15 or more artifacts. Bloodmoon/back to basics requires 20 non-basic lands in your deck. etc. Cards that are blatantly visible pregame. You know, by rule, they can't just surprise you. They are obvious and stop whatever type of combo you dislike the most.

[@peytonmillner6417]

But also hurt or narrow your deck building so that they aren't "free".

[@petrseghman4283]

Maybe a way of fixing this is something Canadian Highlander has: (ad fixing issues around 1:02:00 ) Besides the banlist, have something like "POWER POINTS" assigned to cards (Demonic Tutor has 4 ponts, same as Mana Crypt there) and you are allowed to run any card not on the list + cards from the list with points up to 10 in total.. So you decide if you have fast mana or tutors, and if tutors, than if you go Vam+Diabolic or three or four more specific ones. That would actually probably solve all the EDH problems (You can give Thassa's Oracle a fair amount of points too...). Besides that have a ban list with cards that are banned (a few) as well...

[@bartoffer]

Wizards prints plenty of low-powered, goofy-but-fun cards into commander products alongside the obviously absurd ones - like apex altisaur. The issue is that all it takes is one guy willing to drop $400 on a deck to create an arms race at casual tables, from which people don't want to turn away from due to having sunk so much money in. Diabolic Tutor and lowered-powered cards like that are rarely an issue as far as tutors go - but unless you expressly impress on your group not to obsess over optimization, you'll never see them.

[@BS-gk2cb]

I feel like the solution is pretty simple: print more aven mindcensor like effects. You don’t have to go full tilt opposition agent. Just need tutors into limited card selection.

[@midnightmonty]

I mean if they want to cut out tutors and card draw that would cut out ramp right? So if you want to play like that, just play boros

[@ACertainGuy0]

I see so much green both at my LGS and in my online play groups that I actively run fall of the thran in my aminatou deck just to keep the green players from going absolutely wild. Yes, its MLD, but its a soft MLD, as it gives back 4 lands as the whole saga finishes on its third turn. End result (assuming everyone played an equal amount of lands over the course of those turns) is everyone now has 4-6 lands in play, green is kept in check and nobody is going to go insane too early, and if green thinks they get to re-ramp ahead I literally flicker fall of the thran and do it all again until the green player realizes im not going to let them go land mad with power over there lol.

[@pikachupokemon2203]

Shots fired back 59:42

[@neof8]

Search is search, fixing your colors to cast your threats or getting things to combo, all gets you closer to winning. In regards to the opposition agent conundrum, remember black and green are enemy colors.

[@MrWarptime]

The way around for green ramp is to make it more enchantment based. More of the cards that make lands tap for more, with Hexproof to stop them being destroyed.

[@babassoonist557]

Tomer: if you run less tutors you have to run more removal Crim: I see this as an absolute win

[@jeffreycarey1641]

I think it's actually interesting in that it seems like my view of spike and casual mindsets are directly opposite of y'alls. I see the casual players as being more likely to have interaction so they don't lose before they can play their big, cool spells and the spikes as more likely to have solitaire decks where they try to combo off faster than everyone else.

[@ebonezra8073]

One major point of sadness for me is when new players show me cards they're excited about and my response is, "Oh, that card... it's- yeah, it's a good one. But did you know this similar card exists that's just better?" Obviously, my response could be more sensitive, but the root of the problem is power creep. No experienced player wants a vanilla 3/3 for 2, when you could have Emmara, or Chevill or something. Tutors have created an environment where we no longer care about a 6/6 Trample for 6. We don't even know their names anymore because all we look for are Sun Titan or Carnage Tyrant- which is just better in every way.

[@gregoryyeager4675]

A better idea for house rule variant: You can't play any cards that would cause any player to shuffle their library. It would hit a few other cards besides fetches and tutors, and it wouldn't be more balanced or varied or fun... but it would eliminate shuffling, which is a win.

[@nicolusebrink9997]

You wouldnt put a tutor for a plains, mountain, Island or swamp in a mono green deck would you?

[@MTGGoldfishCommander]

Richard would ;)

[@Weasels42]

RE: Opposition Agent. If your solution to a single card existing in the format is that everybody changes how they build their decks so that they don't have to play non-games if someone resolves that card, maybe there's a problem with the card? I don't really care how reasonable it is to say "play less land ramp, so you don't get screwed by hate" - if one card is warping the format, it's not a solution to the tutoring problem, it's banworthy. I don't think Agent does that yet, for what it's worth. Your solution to a power level issue appears to be an arms race, rather than addressing some underlying issues you touched on. Crim likes solving puzzles at the table, but that's not what everyone else might want. Until the differing goals of people at the table are addressed, discussing any individual cards is putting the cart before the horse. I think you touched on this, but went off the rails later on.

[@brandonr.2807]

Summer school magic, because no one has tutors! My playgroups is trying this and so far the games are a bit slower and splashier.

[@shayneweyker]

From my experience on PlayEDH it's got a longer wait for games for Battlecruiser as opposed to Mid or Low ranked games. But you can find games at peak times without too long a wait. As someone who plays mostly Low and occasional BC and Mid games I wouldn't say I've moved beyond that way of playing magic but, there's a higher chance of having to deal with inexperienced or socially awkward players and games where one player snowballs to victory because no one else has the removal to stop whatever is putting the leading playrer further ahead. And sometimes I don't want to deal with that even if I'm in the mood to try out one of my BC decks.

[@shinsua_]

My honest answer to the tutor issue, and they've even recently (Ikoria) printed cards that do it: Print more deep diving "look at, put into hand" style cards. Make the number stupid, like 10 or more. Make it "half of your library, rounded up." Just add a tiny bit of luck to it. Sometimes Winota whiffs. Sometimes she gets literally everything she needs and wins. Tutors are so much more effective when the card stays hidden, or its done at instant speed. I say go for the former. Or even better, print more cards like the horribly underrated Manifold Insights.

[@georgemcgee2437]

I always looked at Opposition agent as a hate card, not resource denial. Stax in my mind is designed to bring the game to a screeching halt for your opponents by preventing them from doing anything. That isn't opposition agent, it is a cool two for one that hates on a deck playing tutors. A huge number of decks aren't even affected by it, and as you move to more casual tables, it actually goes down in value because there are few tutors that grab game winning pieces. Graveyard hate is perfectly valid, so is artifact hate, but for some reason tutor hate is crossing a line?

[@TheOneAndOnlyCrawl]

In my Chainer deck, i often Entomb to tutor Squee into my graveyard just because I always want to have something to discard. About 15 cards in my deck make me discard one or more cards, so it makes my deck run more smoothly without really changing anything about how the game plays out. And I also use it to put Etali into the GY, reanimate it, give it haste and swing on T3, because playing Rakdos reanimator on curve will lose you the game against any ramp, value or combo decks. But those plays are pretty unique to the deck and are part of the reason I built the deck. Tutor plays should be limited to the ones that are unique to the deck, so people can see why your deck is fun to play, so they might consider building it themselves. However I dislike tutor plays like T1 Imperial Seal/Gamble for Mana Crypt, or T2 get Rhystic Studies, T7 get Cyclonic Rift because they do nothing we haven't seen a million times.

[@PieBandit]

It really depends on how you use them. For example, in a coin flip deck, I'm 100% on board with using a tutor to go find Krark's Thumb, for example

[@peytonmillner6417]

You could make a colorless commander that "secret commanders" a card and thats your decks colors.

[@timolouisse1557]

Wouldn't a (house rule) solution be that you can only search the top x cards of your library when a card tells you to search you library? In that case tutoring would be more of a risk, both for win conditions, insane ramp for green and for board wipes.

[@jamesbeanmachine857]

Opposition agent hosing rampant growth type spells could in theory encourage green players to diversify in for example mana dorks and land auras. Being stubborn because rampant growth is "how you always played the game" and therefor opposition agent is bad design, I disagree with.

[@bubblehulk7647]

What about transmute effects? Does anyone play those in commander besides me?

[@kristbg]

Here’s a suggestion for the next episode: how about implementing a points system (like the one used for Canadian Highlander) in EDH? That might be a fix for both the banlist and the ubiquitousness of tutors in the format.

[@dirnaras2887]

Precisely. That is not the problem of Wizards printing cards, but the format moderation. The homogenization of the format with redundant effects should be battled either with bans or points system. Points in this regard look more favorable. The playgroups, even this goldfish one, already use custom rules. So nothing stops them from making/publishing their own points mainfesto that will limit the redundancy of the format. With enough showcasing such manifesto could actually get some wider renown and adoption.

[@grillburgerdaq5121]

I literally took apart a deck I put a lot into simply because I was bored with the fact that I needed to tutor in it.

[@notjake2089]

I think Tutors might be the only thing Yugioh does better than Magic... Narrow in result AND execution, so they usually say go get an X card out of your deck, but only if you control a Y card. In the Kithkin example, a card that said you could tutor any Kithkin or enchantment for 1W but required you controlled a Kithkin to do it... probably really strong in changelings & Kithkin, but so narrow that its never going to be "ubiquitous"

[@vds92]

1 to 2 tutors is where it's at for me - the sweet spot.

[@IntegralHamster]

I disagree with Seth that green ramp shouldn't be taxed by tutor prohibiting cards. Green ramp is already the least punished thing in EDH since land destruction is pretty much soft banned.

[@albertolimon3170]

Richard is my spirit animal 😂

[@chaoticdrewtral]

Crim: Wants variance Also Crim: Only makes his fifth land drop once per season

[@chrisporter4993]

With all due respect to people who care about the spirit of the format, commander should not be designed according to the vision of the small handful of people who originally started playing it. The 'spirit of the format' is why the format's ban list is completely nonsensical and inconsistent. It doesn't reflect an idealized, healthy, and fun to play commander format; it reflects the gaming preferences of the Rules Committee. The RC's original vision isn't something the overwhelming majority consider or even care about at all, and a lot of people argue all the time that the RC is more a hindrance to the health of the format than a help. If that's the case, then worrying over whether commander is straying too far from their original vision (the 'spirit') of the format is kind of counter-productive. The format isn't their baby anymore. It has outgrown their expectations by several orders of magnitude, and they're clearly not in a position any more to see to it that the format is healthy or fun.

[@tpete096]

What do you guys think about transmute cards? They're tutors with a restriction...

[@NARFNra]

My personal opinion is that I'm totally fine with weird and unusual tutors, but I'm not a fan of staple tutors. I don't like cards like Demonic Tutor or whatever that let you get any card at 2 CMC that there's no reason to play alternatives too - do we really enjoy everyone's games starting with swamp tutor sol ring...? You could argue though that it's more just a dislike for staples, because I think decks should be different and not all play the same cards. But I love building decks around cards like Mwonvuli Beast Tracker or whatever because I think it's unique and gives an interesting deck design restriction.

[@samuelthibodeau8272]

I think Opposition Agent is completely fair. God forbid you slow down Green ramp. When blowing up lands is frowned upon but blowing up all the mana rock is fair and balanced, something's gotta give.

[@KingBobXVI]

Playing a good deck intentionally poorly is completely different from building a sub-optimal deck and playing it to the best of your ability. The former especially is inevitably going to always end up in the situation of feelbads when the pilot mentions how they _could_ have won easily but only didn't because of their own benevolence or whatever. Much better to play decks that are all appropriately tuned to play against each other.

[@Coyote81]

Random thought, what if a card changed what you tutored for to a basic land and makes you take 2 damage.

[@ComfyDents]

So what about a "no search episode"? :-)

[@TheLK641]

Opinion before watching : tutoring or drawing are two different approach to the same question : how do you out-value your opponents. Do you go for quality or for quantity. Banning one, in some way, would make the other mandatory. In the competitive world, maybe it's OP, but in the casual world, tutoring makes some unplayable strategies and combo actually worth trying. Go ahead and do a deck based on an enchantment like Wild Pair or Song of Creation without tuto, it'll probably not work, but with tuto, it can. It's not bad for commander, it's the exact opposite, it's really good for commander.

[@TheLK641]

Opinion after watching : tutoring is fine. Taking it off would just break way too many strategies. I do understand the idea that it's not supposed to be consistent, but then again, I play jank, my friend's blue / green deck will always find its counterspell, cause there are tons of them, he's always going to find his big green creature, cause there are a ton of them and so on and so forth. You don't need to draw 80 cartes to find one of your 10 or 20 different variant of the same concept, but as it stand today, we don't have 10 or 20 different variants of everything and decks that rely on those more unique cards would be harshly hit while anything green and blue would not see any change. The meta where there are those decks drawing 20 cards more than anybody else, some Winota deck looking at half their deck, some combo deck tutoring 15 time during one game feels healthier to me. Variability is cool, but diversity is better.

[@Nas0630]

So if you guys are so gun ho on having only 1 copy of a card, does that mean having 2 different card with thr same effect bad? Since its ruining the singleton mindset? 🤔

[@atevalve]

I feel like the tutors are what make the decks that want to play pet cards work. I have a deck a fair number of tutors and it runs Goblin Artisans and Rocket Launcher because I think they're fun. It frees up slots for bad cards and boosts the power back up.

[@diogomoraes6790]

2008, we played modern only commander with all cards that said shuffle banned. kinda meh in retrospect (it shutters green ramp), but it did led to better games (time was spent actually playing the game, not with setup and updates, aka shuffling)

[@Lowelo860]

I need Tudors cause most my decks aren't build around my cmd, built around a card In the 99.

[@jamessheffield9091]

Definitely, such as Richard's Blooodforged Battleaxe deck! I also like to have 1 or 2 in regular decks to increase the effective number of ramp, draw and removal cards I have in a deck.

[@TheChrisSig]

CRIM IS RIGHT. Aversion to land destruction, rules setting cards, etc. is why green is so crazy rn and why interaction is lower.

[@froggystrap1232]

I would love a tutorless commander game

[@DominoAmor]

Ramping lands is absolutely a tutor and needs to be included in the conversation. Complaining about black tutors is complaining about what that color identity offers, so saying that green gets a pass with their much larger volume if land-ramp tutors is showing favoritism. Not only does rampant growth count as a tutor, it puts the tutored card strait in to play. The sheer volume if them massively outclass any other tutors from other colors. Lands are the hardest permenant to interact with in the format, and mass land ramp strategies that immediately run out a Bane of the Progress or Wave of Vitriol has made many casual games and players turn to more powered strategies that drain fun from otherwise casual tables (unwanted arms race scenarios). There is also the massive chunk of creatures that green has access to to ramp. Restricting tutors that include land-lamp spells will only make games against green/x decks more fair.

[@DominoAmor]

That's not event mentioning ramp spells like farseek or nature's lore that get specific non-basics, further impacting the "singleton" spirit claim. A demonic tutor might get a wincon at some point in the game, but immediately fixing a 3-color decks mana on turn-2 with multiple redundant spells is far more common.

[@DukeGusion]

i think lower power decks have long only existed in private playgroups anyways. like, i took my kari zev deck that was build around sacrificing the monkey every turn to a store in 2017 and i got wheeled by locus god and armageddoned and staxxed out by derevi in the same fucking game. nowadays my favourite deck is my alesha aristocrats deck and it's way to slow and clunky to compete with anything people are doing in stores. but in our private playgroups it's still just fine.

[@dannyhightower2712]

Should have a "No Card Advantage" week. No draw cards, no pseudo-draw cards (like Anticipate), no tutors, and no land fetch ramp. Just good old top decking. Heart of the Cards Week.

[@returnoftheduelist9790]

I say have 3 edh formats: 1.) commons and uncommons only 2.) any rarity with a budget cap 3.) cedh Also, more cards like aven mindcensor over opposition agent so it limits but doesn’t take full control.

[@returnoftheduelist9790]

@@DevanConrad the original printing rarity, bump up or bump downs dont matter, nor the version of the printing.

[@ynsryr]

Love Crim's eva girls shirt

[@ivepesusic8792]

spirit of the format is playing cards that you dont get to play anywhere else in competitive tournament formats soooo does my armageddon resolves????

[@BickSnarf]

Im unable to play most decks i want to in my meta cause its already become to fast.

[@whaleofdarkness]

There is a symmetrical tutor-hate card with Mindlock Orb. Nobody plays it. Nobody even plays the non-symmetrical version Stranglehold.

[@thetimebinder]

Tutors aren't bad. Cheap efficient tutors can lead to repetitive game play. Repetitive game play isn't inherently bad as many players like that, but other players don't. Expensive tutors don't help combo decks very well because they are very slow. Tutors in a non-combo deck can help find answers and help you find on theme cards. Tutors also find land. This can both help fix your mana and it can ramp you. The RC has had decades to decide to ban tutors and they haven't. So, saying tutors are against the spirit of the format had no basis is reality. Is running multiple cards like Lanowar Elves, Elvish Mystic, Finhorn Elves "against the spirit of the format"? Nearly every argument against tutors is really an argument against combo which tutors help assemble.

[@anthonylewis6656]

I mostly dislike tutoring for wincons but for answers to boardstates I like them

[@ToxicAtom]

I feel as though introducing too many tutors into the game can lead decks further down the road of being one-trick combo machines that can only be defeated effectively by luck. That's my fear with tutors, and why I stick by the thought that "tutors are fine if they're specific enough" isn't true. If you have enough density of tutors, the game homogenizes, even if they can only tutor a specific card (if that card is powerful enough). The _only_ tutors in the game I'm ok with are ones that get basic lands. Anything beyond that tends to lean towards homogenized gameplay as far as I'm concerned. If all that doesn't matter to you, that's fine, cedh is there for you, and you can have all the tutors you want, but as someone who plays at lower-power tables and play more as a means to get together with friends than simply to win, I disagree. Coming from modern YGO, where "tutor"-style effects were the main form of hand advantage, I will say it's somewhat a breath of fresh air to not have every deck be the same line of play every game. That might be what turned me off of high-level YGO the most, the fact that the best decks weren't a battle of skill between players, but who memorized the most routes to the single combo the deck was built to facilitate if you're going first, and if you were lucky enough to open up with the exact counter card you needed to push through if you were going second, at which point you then execute your own linear combo. It's like if every deck in the format was Prime Time, Pod, or Splinter Twin, but on Turn 1/Turn 2. (thankfully it's starting to pull away from that, but my point still stands)

[@shanegrant9576]

More Praetors grasp/jesters cap effects to disrupt combos.

[@Stupidexport]

Tomer sort of touched on this with the shuffling concern but I'm surprised I didn't hear the time concern brought up. I already feel like I spend a lot of time in an edh game waiting, and it's even worse when people don't know what they're tutoring for when they cast them.

[@rexone9564]

When opo agent got printed I immediately cut 3 tutors from my deck. And added removal.

[@NotoriouslyADD]

Crims deck contains no pathetic cards Kaiba boy.

[@shadowpsyke]

Seth: "It feels weird for me to try to play a deck badly" Also Seth: "I'm not trying to kill anyone, I just want to draw cards!"

[@jasonholmes5714]

It’s not wrong if he feels it’s right.

[@VexylObby]

@@jasonholmes5714 That's a horrible take.

[@kylejohnson4662]

But if the deck is designed to draw cards, then killing someone is playing the deck badly

[@whiskeydemon736]

There has to be punishment to deter the behavior. One of the reasons that Green is as strong as it is is because of the general community hate for the original way to do it (land destruction). You have to be able to be punished for over-committing to any one path, and tutor hate cards cover two bases so it's actually a perfect solution.

[@SackofDooDoo]

This 100% . Part of the reason Simic (or landfall decks in general) dominates casual edh is because people look down upon MLD. This is the definition of hypocrisy, as the landfall player is intentionally utilizing a strategy that they are aware the rest of the players won't interact with just because of the taboo of touching lands. If people expect players not to play something that stops a particular strategy, they will naturally go all into it and will either be salty when someone does stop it, or everyone will just play the same exact deck strategy (low deck diversity).

[@VexylObby]

Every color has treasures now, and you can only build up mana so much. Green having ramp is not so much an issue. Especially when most commander decks are more than one color now too. And punishment can exist, but not in poor design.

[@Ixidora]

I openly run 2, let me repeat that, TWO "destroy all lands" spells because I staunchly refuse to play green and explained my stance just as you described in your main post as the original answer to green ramp. I also DO NOT cast them whenever without consideration, I will drop it at a time when the green player has committed half or more or their mana base to the board by the time the rest of the table has like 5 lands, at that point mathematically the green player has effectively been killed by a land wipe and the other three players can fight with their undamaged draw ratio of lands.

[@VexylObby]

@@Ixidora Real embarrassing when there isn't a green player at the table or when you just end up hosing the player just about to catch up. OR you could have targeted land removal for the inevitability that there is always one player ahead of the table or a problematic land, in addition to ramping yourself.

[@Ixidora]

@@VexylObby interesting you point to play patterns I said I don't utilize as they're degenerate, in all of those scenarios I'm more than happy to pitch it as fuel for Cathartic Reunion or similar loot/rummage effects. I run around 10 general hoses and am perfectly capable of playing around them being "turned off". So no, not embarrassing in the slightest when my opponent sees me discard Armageddon to draw two with no green players at the table because it didn't bring value to that board state. There's a big difference between running a card because it does work and running it because you know when and how to use it properly. Also I do run strip mine for targeted land removal, it takes up a spell slot in my count.

[@emilypearl3510]

I think yall are over estimating how many of us have fetch lands. Their super expensive cards that don't add tons of value to a deck. Most folks I know who play commander aren't running fetches, their running tap lands and that one shock land they got from a draft they did or whatever.

[@Red-Tower]

I mean, there are the tapped fetches, myriad landscape, panoramas, etc. That are cheaper, but generally yeah, most "kitchen table" commander players are buying cheap bulk cards, 1 dollar rares, cards from draft or cracking random packs, and maybe maybe buy a precon deck here and there. And beyond that there's still a whole lot of casual players who's budget isn't going to include fetches and shocks; it's going to at most be building a deck online and going off the tcgplayer or card kingdom price the deck builder shows them to stay on budget, and buying singles to fill it out. But Tomer does point out they are in the entitled 1% of players in several ways. Playing all the time and creating Magic content all the time in lots of formats. Tomer is the only one that I know for sure plays commander with random people/viewers and that's still on MTGO where you can play vintage for a fraction of the price of playing in paper.

[@cz75fanatic]

@@Red-Tower i agree, the issue is that for them who mainly play mtgo having a play set of fetches costs like $10 while paper players aren't spending $80 per deck on lands minimum. Im honestly annoyed that wizards has refused to print the fetches and shocklands in every commander produc

[@regirayquaza]

@@cz75fanatic $10 for a shock isn't that bad for such a high demand land.

[@petersteiman2443]

Seth is 100% correct about cards printed for commander being against the spirit of the format. Speaking of which, have you guys ever done a Commander Clash episode where only cards printed before Commander 2011 are legal?

[@Trebbih]

They did an episode with the professor from tolarian community college where only cards from standard sets where aloud. No commander product cards. I think that's the closest to what you are after, at least that I can think of

[@petersteiman2443]

@@Trebbih Would you believe me, if I told you that within minutes of making that comment KZbin recommended that episode for me to watch.

[@shinsua_]

Pioneer EDH actually sounds like a dream...

[@Nolsie]

36:27 while Crim is technically correct, there is such a massive difference between tutoring for a Dark Depths with expedition map, and a traveler's Amulet that tutors for basic lands. It borders on insanity, its like saying Thalia and Mistral Charger are in the same class of card because they're 1W 2/1s.

[@anxez]

Green players stop whining when their unchallenged ramp and fixing are challenged, challenge, 2021.

[@direkitsune]

@@anxez your talking about green ramp, when the topic was two artifact ramp that goes anywhere XD

[@olvynchuru1663]

That actually depends on the context. If I was playing a limited game (where flying is really good and players don't typically cast tons of cheap noncreature spells), I would rather have Mistral Charger than Thalia.

[@TwiztidHeir]

Build casual, play competitive.

[@AgentMurphy286]

Have a casual mindset, don’t get salty when you lose or someone plays a card you dislike. That’s the real trick to casual.

[@jacksunflare]

I think it's hilarious that edh players hate when other people play "solitaire" like storm or paradox engine type decks but then they cry when you interact with their strategy??? Like just because your ramp, creature, over run is quicker doesn't mean it isn't still solitaire - esque.

[@BW-CZ]

Seriously this. People repeat the copypasta of "don't play solitaire" and "play interaction!" and then when you remove their creatures they're like "WHY DID YOU KILL MY STUFF". And it goes full circle, because of this general reception many people don't play interaction since not only does it not help their active gameplan it also makes enemies and other people frustrated, and then because of no one playing interaction, people play less stuff that can help them counter or rebuild from interaction, so when they meet the one player who plays interaction they get even saltier.

[@Spaced92]

@@BW-CZ This has honestly never been a problem in a playgroup for me because I don't play against Commander only players. No one has ever thrown a tantrum because I killed a creature or countered a spell, and they don't moan about how they had a hard week of work and didn't want to go against a deck that inconveniences their play style. I mean Crim is right, isn't that fun in its own way? It's a game ffs, I joke around when I get staxed out, and that's not an every game type of deck obviously. I remember describing a deck I was building to a random barista who overheard us discussing MtG and they groaned and said "eww gross, discard deck" and I was like whoah, okay then, my friends seem fine with it and it's not even really a discard deck, well random Barista I guess I'll play some Craterhoof deck then. That's the problem with Commander to me, they say it's the format of creativity and expressing yourself but really randoms want to police your deck.

[@thebloodcrazed5717]

@@BW-CZ it sounds like your play group is just salty. My play group loves interaction

[@Suavek69]

​@@BW-CZsorry to necro two year comment, but who the hell do you play against? I legitimately only heard those complaints online. Well, ok there was one guy like that, but he got so annoying we cut him out of our playgroup lol. So I guess don't play with average redditer and you'll be fine

[@shinsua_]

I wouldn't call Opposition Agent resource denial, unless you're specifically responding to the player attempting to ramp to fix their own resources. If an OA hits a tutor that was meant for a game winning card; it's closer to denial. If an OA hits a tutor that was meant for an answer; it's closer to protection.

[@fabled2231]

41:50 Interaction (even stax) as a puzzle is very much the best fun in edh. You get a unique game each time and it really tests your play skill and deck building. Getting locked out and losing makes for some great post-game conversations, too, as you get to go over the decision points and lines and figure out how to deal with a similar situation next time.

[@jamieanderson3690]

The thing I took away from this is it sounds like you have more issues of combo then tutoring. Most examples you gave were problems on players and not essentially the card. "Player A will just use the tutor to go get there win con." And I think that really a troublesome outlook. I think Richard nails it on the head that redundance that itself doesn't stop that. I think magic has existed so long that if you have a theme for a deck there are enough cards that create a critical mass you will find these consistencies. Take Tomer's changeling deck. They keep printing good changelings and now there is a critical mass were the tribal tribal deck exist at its current ability. I don't think tutors are bad and players should be able to talk more with there playgroups. WoTC are going to just print cards and we choose what to do with them. I can play Zur and build degenerate combo or what I actually did was build Zur cycling and that deck is a blast!