Music Chat: Classical Record Labels Explained

Hardcore collectors know all of this stuff, but newcomers, casual listeners, and those who simply couldn't care less (until now) might be interested in learning who the main players are in the looney world of classical music recordings. Here is a brief little chat to give you a sense of who's in the game and where they came from, so that their names will be less unfamiliar when you hear them mentioned.

[@davidmayhew8083]

Dave, you're priceless. Gosh. I remember the good ol' days. What, 5 major labels? That was good enough for me! It was like this contest to see which label could produce the best of anything. I'm out of Sacramento where Tower Records started and then spread everywhere. There was just nothing like getting a couple of new albums and digging in. It was such a treat to see hundreds of records of all the great masters. If course there were never more than two or three of us shopping on that side of the fence but we didn't care. It was as if the oyster was our own personal treasure trove. Then it changed and then changed again and ultimately it was all reduced to a couple of hundred sad looking withered grapes. When you mention Decca I was thinking, "where's London"? "Where's Angel?" "Phillips?". Sonewhers along the line a had checked out! I thought the classical music industry was dead! And now, here you are, resurrecting the whole shebang! Tower's gone. But great art lives on! And you are our captain! Thanx for keeping us informed and for jump starting my passion for music!

[@ozoz9582]

I consider myself a “hardcore collector” and I didn’t know some of this stuff - as always, you have taught me while entertaining me - thank you, thank you, thank you! 😊

[@rsmickeymooproductions4877]

My cd collection was absolutely loaded with budget and super budget recordings. This is because I couldn't afford to buy full price cds at the time. Labels such as Laserlight, Discover, Lydian, Carlton, Pickwick, ASV, Vox, Belart .... the list goes on. When I listen to some of these recordings now, they are as good as anything the Main labels released. Naxos was a revelation for me. Quality recordings with Orchestras/conductors (not well known) but so cheap everyone could enjoy beautiful music.

[@debrawhited3035]

I can't afford $30 (or more) for a single cd either. My method for getting around that is to buy used. It's a crap-shoot if you buy in person from shops and stalls. It is a little less of a risk when buying on-line, especially if you look for vendors who "guaranteed to play without skips." In an era where people are obsessed with downsizing and de-cluttering, I have found really nice cds, especially older, classic artists and orchestras, by buying used. Often the $3.99 shipping is more expensive than the disk itself.

[@michaweinst3774]

Small addition: one of the labels distributed by Naxos (which I can't believe why you didn't mention because it's a pretty major label) is Chandos. That's a small thing though, an excellent video! I sort of knew where the video was going, but it was still great to have this refresh. Thanks!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, I couldn't get to all of them, but you get the idea...

[@jesus-of-cheeses]

Chandos 😍 Love their Jarvi/ SNO recordings! And the Gliere box set!

[@VoceCorale]

Dear Mr. Hurwitz, I would really love a video with your opinion about the future of classical music on physical media vs. digital download/streaming. Maybe I'm not the only one. Thank you and keep up the good work!

[@bryanlentz7160]

Dave, I like your explanation of the NAXOS label. It seemed to me like they were like a clearing house for classical artists and their recordings!

[@adrianosbrandao]

Great stuff, Dave! And there’s a whole new economy right now: the streaming business. It’s a mess, because labels get paid by the streaming platforms by play. Literally, cents by play. So they started to create spam-like schemes to get featured in major playlists and frequent searches. Labels started to replicate their recordings in dozens of albums. Some started to split their tracks into smaller ones, some are releasing “single track” versions of their new releases, like sampler albums. Their goal is to inflate their catalogue and win a numbers game. Sometimes they achieve this by following their physical big box sets, but most often they simply make up adhoc spammy streaming-only albums. Once I managed to find the same DG “Grosse Fuge” (played by the Emersons) in several albums like “Beethoven for Relaxation”, “Beethoven for Sleep” etc. Yeah, the “Grosse Fuge”. For sleep. There’s the video streaming economy as well, but that’s a different story altogether. The NY Philharmonic just started to produce their own made-for-streaming videos, to sell on their own NYPhilFlix of sorts. The Berliners have been doing that for years.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, you're right. That's a whole different world and I think you know far more about it than I do.

[@adrianosbrandao]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I’ve been trying to understand that craziness for some years, not sure if I’m succeeding

[@matthewv789]

I think it’s because the economics of it make no sense. On average they probably get not much more than 1/3 of a cent per stream across all platforms (the lowest payouts, such as KZbin’s and Spotify’s free/ad-supported tiers, being associated with the large majority of plays), no matter how long the track is. Downloads and cd/vinyl sales are the only way to make money per unit (at least once they reach a break-even point, which they often don’t), but sales of those are in great decline as everyone switches to the convenience of cheap (or free, if you can stand the ads and inability to play tracks in any particular order) streaming. If artists want to make money they should be focusing efforts on selling premium products to their “1000 true fans”, in my opinion, not on streaming. (Including individual artists/“KZbinrs” appealing directly to fans-as-donors through things like Patreon, and selling branded “merch” like tshirts, mugs, and tote bags.) I see streaming as being like radio: a place you give away a few hit singles in order to introduce yourself to listeners and hope they’re intrigued enough to buy the album. But not ALL is lost with streaming. Seemingly the only way to get enough streams to make any money is to get on those mood playlists, because surprisingly (and encouragingly), a large minority of young people (maybe a third of high school and college age students) turn to that kind of thing to study to. So they really can get millions of streams of the Moonlight sonata first movement and various other familiar, relaxing tunes, but otherwise struggle to make the slightest net profit. Interesting aside: the most popular complete moonlight on KZbin, with 160 million streams over the past decade, is a MIDI on a digital keyboard or sampler (accompanying a portrait of Beethoven). Most people who hear it have no idea it’s not a real piano or real pianist. At first I was a bit offended, but in the end who cares? It’s serving its purpose of getting people to hear and love the music (160 MILLION streams of the moonlight sonata!!!). I learned Mozart 40 from my cheap Casio alarm clock, and some other music from recordings of Tomita and Don Dorsey. If monetized through its entire life, that video might have netted its uploader up to around $160,000 and counting. He has several other similarly popular uploads, so could be making a comfortable passive-income living just from that handful of KZbin videos of classical music. On the other hand, many of the “art tracks” that get uploaded officially through distributors alongside all the other streaming releases - the ones that have just the album cover and are “supplied to KZbin by [whichever distributor]” and now also have comments disabled, might be lucky to get hundreds of views a year. They may be lucky to make a dollar a year in royalty payouts per track from KZbin (to the label, even less to the artist). Their other strategy (especially from the major labels) seems to be filing false copyright claims through Content ID against other people’s uploaded amateur recital performances of public domain works, so they can monetize those videos too. The only thing propping up most of the classical music market at this point (particularly for expensive orchestral or opera recordings) is donors, who pay for all that self production. None of it is intended to make any money, since barely any of it ever does. It’s all vanity publishing, or public service, depending on your perspective. It doesn’t help that those donors and organizations often lack much imagination or understanding of the new and changing market realities, let alone effective marketing in general. Streaming is the way to reach audiences but the economics suck, and probably always will. (It also doesn’t help that so many performers are churning out yet more recordings of the same music with little that obviously makes theirs “better”, to which compositions they generally own none of the rights, so unlike pop musicians they get no composer or songwriter/lyricist royalties.)

[@adrianosbrandao]

@@matthewv789 wow! Thanks! Like everything, it’s much more complex than we think.

[@dranfox]

Excellent summary, Dave. "Contemporary Listenable Music" should be adopted as a standard genre description.

[@josephromance3908]

Dave, I am a very serious collector and I knew some of this stuff in an off hand way (I learned indirectly in comments of others). But I never knew the narrative. Thanks, this was interesting and useful to me.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Glad it was useful!

[@shostakovich343]

Another interesting subcategory would be the Eastern-European national labels like Melodiya, Supraphon, Hungaroton, and Eterna. Due to a combination of nationalism and isolation, their recordings are full of character. Of all, Supraphon probably had the best quality control, recording many lesser-known works with major artists and only re-recording pieces if they had a good reason to do so. Since the fall of communism the local colour has all but disappeared, but those labels still have their wonderful catalogues.

[@anaklasis]

Not Melodiya. They only issue expensive boxes with "cool design" (rather kitsch and awful design I'd say). Instead of selling again Mahler's symphonies with Kondrashin, they just put out a mixed box with Sladkovsky (which is not great, neither terrible). And not all the Mahler by Kondrashin. What about the great Gennady Rozhdestvensky. After his decease, at Melodiya's site they just launched a playlist of tracks. No new album, nothing. Incomprehensible, given that Rozhdestvensky made for them near 800 albums (!). Mariya Yudina's anniversary edition: such a expensive box with 10 CDs (Scribendum issued 26 CDs). And NO Goldberg Variations (you must find it elsewhere in another album). Still there are interesting things like Beethoven Quartet cycle, issued few years ago. But sadly this company went under a strong decline. And too much mishmash albums kinda "best of", "scenes", and so on. By the way, since last year, Melodiya is a entirely private company. The Government just didn't invest nothing and they selled out and not even an auction was formally announced.

[@simonvaughan6017]

Supraphon was streets ahead of Melodiya technically throughout the communist period and seems to have successfully made the transition from a state enterprise to a private one. By the same token, it was no accident that, in the '90s, film companies started going to the Czech Republic to make movies. There was a lot of technical expertise to be had very cheaply.

[@estel5335]

What's the matter with Olympia? Is it a Eastern-European label as well? Didn't it merge with ALTO? And then, what's the matter with ALTO?

[@simonvaughan6017]

@@estel5335 Olympia's headquarters were in London. It had some interesting repertoire (e.g. Enescu, Szymanowski's King Roger, rare Prokofiev), but the sound was usually pretty lousy.

[@estel5335]

@@simonvaughan6017 ah! Well, I just happen to know them via Jed's Richter recommendations. He did some remarkable Schumann there.

[@nicolasr7209]

Love your talks! Thank you so much for doing these. Please don't stop.

[@vincentd.1424]

Thanks! I have recently started collecting classical music CD's (and with collecting I mean digging trough my grandfather's CD racks to find classical music).

[@jjquinn2004]

Thank-you very much for a wonderfully informative presentation. As a collector of boxed sets, I was looking around my room as you went through the three categories and it helped me make sense of the connections between them. I would be happy to see more videos on the topic - perhaps one for each of the three categories. Thanks again.

[@dmntuba]

Great discussion...well done and much appreciated 👍

[@benmills7104]

Absolutely essential for my knowledge. This was excellent. As a long time collector of box sets, very interesting to see how the mechanism works.

[@AlexMadorsky]

Hitchhiker Dave’s Guide to the Galaxy! Thanks for this handy primer. As my cerebellum started falling down the classical music rabbit hole in earnest several years ago, I started to slowly piece together some of this stuff myself. It’ll be nice to have this video to refer to as I continue to expand my LP and CD collection at a contemplative largo pace.

[@im2801ok]

Now THAT was an eye-opener, if there ever was one! Thank you, uncle Dave, for introducing some order into our classical music chaos :)

[@joshrappaport1278]

Thank you, uncle Dave, for giving us an inside look in the major and indy labels. :)

[@2906nico]

Massively helpful - and really interesting. Thanks.

[@svendeckers1964]

In case you didn't know, [PIAS] = Play It Again, Sam. That's how the label was called in the early 90ies, when, to the best of my knowledge, it focused on alternative rock (like Pixies).

[@ThreadBomb]

The Pixies were on 4AD, though I guess maybe PIAS licensed them.

[@arneheinemann3893]

Some details (far as I know): The german label Telefunken distributed Decca in Germany (TELDEC). TELDEC, Erato and I think Finlandia were the start of Warner Classics. Decca sold there US-Company during WW II. After the war Decca must use another brand, London records. Meanwhile American Decca belongs to Universal. In east Germany (GDR, the socialists) all classical music was recorded by Eterna. Eterna recorded eastern orchestras (Staatskapelle Dresden, Gewandhausorchester Leipzig, Staatskapelle Berlin) for western (capitalist) labels like TELDEC, Deutsche Grammophon, EMI and Denon from Japan. You now find a part of Eterna recordings on Berlin Classics. Decca made recordings for Reader‘s Digest (Leibowitz Beethoven, Brahms 4 with Reiner, Rachmaninov with Earl Wild and Horenstein), later on Chesky Decca recorded also for RCA Living Stereo, Monteux and Beethoven for example, now on Decca. One thing I don’t understand: Sony bought CBS, but: Columbia was CBS ? And I think, there are Columbia recordings from EMI. Same company ? Or two Columbias ? Greetings from Northern Germany.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Columia was CBS=Columba Broadcasting System. Readers Digest recordings were, as far as I know, made by RCA, not Decca, but has you point out, they did have a relationship. Certain album using artists exclusive to different labels (operas especially) were coproductions coming out on different labels in different territories.

[@arneheinemann3893]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Kenneth E. Wilkinson from Decca was the recording engineer of many Reader‘s Digest recordings. But perhaps he worked for RCA too.

[@ewmbr1164]

Fascinating, Dave, as always! I loved the Funk part of the Trilogy (if it were a Tetralogy, it would be Wagnerian in scope :-) ). I have lived in Germany between 1977 and 1996, and indeed enjoyed many marvelous hours listening to various Rundfunk symphony orchestras, both via funk and live. Unforgettable the live concerts in Munich's Herkulessaal led by Rafael Kubelik, in his capacity as music director of the Symphonie-Orchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks. On radio ("im Funk", auf Deutsch), the then Sinfonieorchester des Südwestdeutschen Rundfunks did stunning things under Ernest Bour, and, later, Michael Gielen (I join you in your appreciation of the latter when it comes to Mahler). Especially in southwest Germany, there have been severalvery fine Rundfunk orchestras, which have been merged in recent years. Yet still: Germany's Rundfunkorchesterlandschaft is a quite unique reality and a major force in recorded music.

[@jesusalvarez-cedron6581]

Thank you David for this interesting survey. I knew i was getting a bit outdated when i saw a few months ago the Wagner's orchestral music by Klemperer with the Warner logo instead of the EMI one...

[@johnmarchington3146]

Many thanks, David, for a marvellous video. I knew a lot about the industry but you certainly told me a lot I didn't know. so thank you once again. I have a number of the RCO (Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra) recordings that I value highly, like the HORIZON series that feature contemporary music, superbly played and recorded.

[@CortJohnson]

Fascinating! Go into more detail!

[@jensguldalrasmussen6446]

Thank you for a nice overview, that ought to hold some interest for both newbies and the more seasoned collector. I for my part got a better understanding of the whole Naxos conglomerat, and was quite surprised to hear that Orfeo was part of their empire! I wholeheartedly agree with you, that this is a wonderful era for completists (and everybody else of course) with the steady stream of comprehensive box sets, that allows one to hear in amazingly good sound recordings, that you have not heard of or only read about, f.ex. Bruno Walter's Beethoven sixth with the Philadelphia Orch. from 1946 (sic!), that I never had the chance to hear before. Of course it's not HIFI, but I was really flabbergasted how well it sounds in 'The Complete Columbia Album Collection', not to speak of the other content in this mouthwatering release. Likewise with the Szell box from the same source - there might be some japanese SACD releases of some of the works, that came with better sound, although I tend to doubt it. I haven't had the opportunity to make a check/test of it, though, as I neither could, nor would pay the astronimic sums demanded for them. A friend and I, by the way, coined the expression 'slim-minting' for the wonderful sensation, when a box of such quality makes you able to remove single issue cd's, taking up more space on your cd-shelves, than does the more complete box! Actually in the case of both the mentioned box-sets (only with a slight reservation concerning the remastering of the Mahler 2nd in the Walter box), you can talk of slim-minting as well as up-minting (i.e. upgrading of sound quality). Sometimes, though, with the larger companies, you stumble upon, what can only be described as inexcuseable incompetence, if not lazy stupidity, as f.ex. when in the otherwise splendid Karl Richter box (complete Archive/DG recordings), they have - as in every cd incarnation - spread out the 2nd cantata of the Christmas Oratory over 2 cd's, albeit it together with the 1st cantata easily could have been on one! Why on earth, why couldn't they just this time get it right? If one looks at the timings, I wonder if the background for this idiocy might have been, that they again and again have reproduced the format/side shifts of the original LP version? Talking about the Evil Empire, maybe, one day you could expound upon, how some enthusiasts seem to succesfully have upheld sound professional standards, in singing the eulogy of the unsung heroes of Australian Eloquence? And a last proposition: as I presume, this is not quite up your alley (too much music archeology here, I guess, and not necessarily your main areas of interests), but maybe you, post-vaccination, could make an interview session with either of your estimable colleagues Robert Levine or Jed Distler about the sound wizzardry of Ward Marston on his own label. I really liked some of the earlier issues of Marston Records, but after I heard, what results he was able to obtain in the box with complete recordings of Mattia Battistini, 1902 (yes!) - 1924, I was struck with awe, and immediately signed up as Preferred Customer (kind of the answer of classical recordings to the book club concept). I've just received from them the box set to end all box sets, both in regard to content/refurbisment, lay out, commentaries, you name it, namely the complete recordings of Feodor Chaliapin. If ever there was a box set that creates in you the urge to cuddle and snuggle it, yeah, almost cries for you to pet it, this is it! And I think Marston's indefatigable endeavour to preserve in the best possible sound important parts of our aural, cultural heritage could deserve a talk or two!

[@michaelvaughan3929]

Three labels that I grew up with (and may not even exist any more) are Everest, Westminster, and, especially for baroque music, Vanguard.

[@richardsandmeyer4431]

So that's what happened to the Nonesuch catalog. I knew it was Elektra/Nonesuch at one time but I didn't know (or had forgotten) that it was swallowed up by Warner. Warner really ought to reissue more of the Nonesuch back catalog; there were some interesting original recordings on that label. Of course, Nonesuch also had a lot of licensed recordings from other labels that will depend on the owning labels for reissue. Oh, and speaking of Warner, I believe they only took over the EMI Classical catalog, not the entire EMI empire. UMG got most of the pop music part as I recall, not that we care much about that for this discussion. That was a nice overview of the labels in CM even if you couldn't mention every last indie label.

[@parkermonroe]

Thanks very much -- this was very informative and added perspective that was useful to me. Things have changed so much that it's hard to keep track of who owns what. Like some of the other commentators, I especially enjoyed your explication of how Naxos operates -- though I still do see how the manage to break even on many of their offerings, even with may I'm sure is a super-low cost basis. Anyway, God bless Klaus Heymann; he's done so much for music. It's interesting that despite "the collapse" of the recording industry, how much product still gets produced -- reissues, yes, but also new product. I have seen 200 - 300 of your videos now and purchased quite a few of your suggested items (e.g. Villa Lobos and Roussel symphonies), and this one was the most useful and interesting and I hope you expand the series. I'd love a deep dive into the glory days of RCA and Columbia.

[@ppfuchs]

Thank you. Very informative. I wish you would do a video on how it is that record labels actually make money to stay in business. Seems a great mystery given all the bad news about classical music. Have always wondered about this.

[@robertpeterson8640]

Dave, this is certainly a can of worms worth opening for future content. Over the years I have become a collector of small labels and unusual repertoire. I couldn’t name the top 10 artists on DG.

[@capuano3d]

I recall my teenage years in the early 90s, avid to listen to classical music but without any reference or resource, a regular classical CD being something expensive that I actually had to plan ahead if I wanted to buy. That's when I found a certain Seraphim label, much more affordable, which really made the difference for me. It was such a delight to finally put my hands in the basic repertory 😊

[@WMAlbers1]

Oh boy, since I have KZbin and Spotify, I've rarely bought any records any more. But now I have noticed the CPO catalogue, I might actually buy some CD's again...

[@maudia27]

Hyperion also is not at Spotify and they have a lot of incredible recordings

[@Xanthe_Cat]

Every so often I download the Naxos catalogue because, as you said, they are mining repertoire that almost no one else touches. The current Naxos catalogue is 868 pages in total: 300 or so for Naxos, and then another 500 pages for their affiliated labels: Altissimo, ARC Music, BelAir Classiques, Belvedere Edition, Capriccio, … … … and Vox. The mind boggles.

[@rogermilne8563]

That's a useful precis of how things have changed. When I started collecting classics in the early 70s everything was on EMI/Decca/DG/Phillips/CBS/RCA. There was very little else in the racks. My latest batch of CDs are from Naxos/Chandos/Capriccio/Dabringhaus & Grimm/Albion/Heritage & Accentus. A lot of it repertoire that the majors wouldn't touch. I used to work for Decca back in the day when they still had stars like Pavarotti, Solti & Ashkenazy. It was exciting to get the monthly release sheets as there was new stuff from those stars, plus more specialist releases from Argo & L'Oiseau-Lyre, and plenty of milking the back catalogue (endlessly recycling Ansermet). If I was doing the same job now I'd much rather it was working for the independents.

[@matthewweflen]

I think this was a wonderful explanation.

[@badger1492]

I'm glad you mentioned the orchestras that have their own labels. My local band, the San Francisco Symphony, has SFS Media and produce some excellent recordings.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Indeed they do.

[@indranilpoddar7195]

Wonderful talk David...Chandos as well also...some great repertoire and often excellent sonics and usually incredibly well presented ...there are also some labels that are reissue specialists ( Archipel, Myto, M&A, Testament, Membran, History, Archiphon, etc. plus the Italian ‘pirate’ labels) and some others like Regis and Alto which have a lot of the Melodiya catalog. How would you characterise Firma Melodiya today? Inflated prices today that are at odds with its history of thin records and harsh sonics...

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes. As usual, the talk was not intended to be complete--just to explain major trends and tendencies.

[@jackwern8685]

It's the duplication of recordings with all the shenanigans that has had me buying second copies by mistake - just a different label and booklet e.g. I haven't made that mistake so often now I buy everything via Amazon. First I check the "your orders" section! Good video, David - thank you.

[@VallaMusic]

the artist pays for everything and makes nothing - yeah, that sounds about right

[@frankpotter877]

Great talk, but I wonder if it was an oversight by Dave that he did not mention the Musical Heritage Society. It was big at least in the 60s when I was buying a lot of records. Now that I think of it, one needed to subscribe to it.

[@tmorganriley]

Thank you so much for this! I was trying to sort this out myself for the last few weeks, and this helps codify it all for me. I gather a peculiar example of your third category (Private labels) would be "Orange Mountain Music", which is the only such label I know of that is composer-oriented (for the works of Philip Glass) rather than performer or venue-oriented.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

There have been many others, but yes, it's a private label.

[@clemteetonball1250]

Uncle Dave explains it all, nice !

[@wjlis79]

Enlightening even for someone who used to work at a music store. I always wondered why some sets arent6 available in the U.S. buy are in Canada, for example. I know that a lot has changed because of the internet but I was always curious to know why some boxed sets are so expensive and other ones are so dang cheap.

[@StephenGottPianist]

Very infromative thanks. I'm currently looking for a record label.

[@bryanlentz7160]

I still like the RCA Living Stereo recordings. Many of them STILL sound outstanding to this day!

[@vinylarchaeologist]

I think the Archiv Produktion's very existence as an active label is a bit dubious at the moment. It's been quite almost 5 years since anything on that label has been issued or reissued in physical form. Have you noticed how people like Trevor Pinnock or Giuliano Carmignola, who used to be on Archiv, are now on the Yellow Label? (I think the big Karl Richter box doesn't count as an Archiv release).

[@richardbelanger5060]

Archiv is almost non existent because major labels like Harmonia Mundi and small labels such as Alia Vox, Gimmell, Passacaille and Coro, for example, focus on the same repertory. Years ago, Trevor Pinnock recording the Goldberg Variations was a major event. These days, can any of us but Dave remember one significant new title coming from Archiv over the past five or ten years? Maybe some Vivaldi... Incidentally, it has been the same with contemporary music.Over the years, there were contributors such as Wergo, Disques Montaigne, Louisville Records and, more recently, Kairos or Neos. Labels such as DGG, Argo or Decca all recorded new composers and conductors devoted to 20th C music (de Leeuw, Howarth, Atherton). Marginalized music, that it be ancient or contemporary, is marginalized even more or harder to find, it seems.

[@pascalrousseau1]

Thanks for that. I was hoping to hear a little about brilliant classics that I perceived, previously, as re-issuer of other catalogs. But, more recently theys seems to produce album, a bit like naxos, by placing orders with Italian and Dutch artists (rather than in eastern Europe as Naxos) to perform less popular composers. Is the same recipe of Naxos ? I find it interesting.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, what you say about Brilliant Classics is true.

[@kanishknishar]

Thanks for the talk, Dave. I recently heard Dessau's Second Symphony and it was amazing. Thanks for the recommendation. Might I recommend a video on Guarnieri? A South American symphonist like Villa Lobos and his Sixth Symphony is certainly worth a listen.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I know his work well and will get to him.

[@VoceCorale]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I'll be waiting then... I really like his symphonies and piano concertos and, basically, I owe my knowledge of him to your old reviews of the Neschling symphony cycle on Bis - otherwise I would have probably overlooked him. Another one is the Turkish Saygun.

[@DiscoverPianoTV]

Dave thank you so much for making this! I love your videos! Just out of curiosity, would Chandos fall under the independent category?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, absolutely.

[@gideonels]

Uncle Dave! My favourite uncle!

[@dennischiapello7243]

I love your shout-out to Nonesuch. Warner simply needs to reissue the entire catalog--maybe in a big, big box. I weep over the loss of French Organ Masterpieces of the 17th and 18th Centuries. Their 20th Century series (with the less psychedelic cover art) was spectacular. It usually seemed to feature the Contemporary Chamber Ensemble and their members, like Paul Jacobs, whose Debussy Preludes stand up to the best of them. PS: what you say about Naxos is true. I always have to scold myself to overcome my resistance to their dull and dreary cover art, which is a mere step above an SKU barcode.

[@DavidNursal2012]

I'm curious about how and why certain recordings change labels over time, e.g. the Furtwangler Tristan started as EMI but then appeared on Naxos Historical. Now I believe it's on Warner. The DG complete Wagner box includes Solti recordings that started on Decca. The EMI Bruckner set was sold by Brilliant Classics at one time. And so on ....

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

A. After a certain period, copyright expires and they become public domain (in certain territories--it's complicated). B. See the video. EMI is now Warner. C. Major labels sometimes license titles to independent labels. When these licenses expire, chaos ensues.

[@geoffreybellah4065]

One of the most interesting and eccentric of the major independents is - or used to be - the English company Nimbus, supposedly founded by a Count Numa Lubinsky. Its packaging (notes, artwork) is usually of high quality, and its artists distinguished. However, its proprietary recording technique called Ambisonic often sounds hollow on standard playback systems. Most curious was Nimbus’ Prima Voce series, which re-recorded acoustic and early electrical vocal recordings by playing them back with thorn needles out of a huge horn. And then there was its Grand Piano series which recorded piano rolls cut by the great pianists in the early 20th century by having a “robot” play them back on a modern piano. Some of these experiments were indeed very fine.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Oh yes, Nimbus was very, er, unique, especially when recording the Count as vocal soloist in Schubert Lieder.

[@james.t.herman]

That’s all fascinating. Norman Lebrecht wrote a book on the major labels, too, that I read about 10 years ago. It was on the demise of the industry actually. I like this talk because it’s not millenarian like his.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

And he was so wrong--as he almost invariably is.

[@ronnyskaar3737]

Thanks. After the first 13.8 billion years you really nailed it!

[@ModusVivendiMedia]

By the way PIAS was originally called "Play It Again Sam Records" and changed to PIAS in 2000.

[@guillermovillacorta4590]

Thanks Dave, I I really enjoyed the summary...I want to make a chart to show this systematically, somehow, to explain the whole thing to someone (my wife, maybe...ha ha), and with credits to you!! How about Virgin, Brilliant Records, Arcana...? There are so many!! Cheers, GV

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Too many!

[@mikaelbeskow9221]

It would be interesting to hear a commentary on Brilliant Classics, its founder an their very fine licenced material, for example of wonderful Bis records in their Vivaldi box (of 10 cd:s), and also of Bis records in their big Bachbox, namely Hans Fagius`s organ music.

[@sharpandshort]

Pascal Rousseau commented and David corroborated. I would say they are "in the style of Naxos". Somewhat their "younger brother" or "younger cousin", similarities and, differences. Their KZbin channel is very generous, but also their notes and documentation is wanting, all in my own humble opinion of course. Brilliant have some fantastic projects though, truly a force to be reckoned with. PS. Thanks for Hans Fagius tip!

[@sjc1204]

I wonder if conductors like Andris Nelsons and/or Gustavo Dudamel who still release on Universal have lucrative deals or are those days over? I recently watched a documentary I think was titled "Karajan's Magic and Myth" and believe one player interviewed remarked how, in a bygone era, the musicians would make 2x their salary in recording royalties.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Those days are over.

[@olegroslak852]

This talk was great and calls to mind a number of questions for Uncle Dave since, well, if anyone knows, you do. They are: 1. Where does Berlin Classics fit into all this? I thought they might have been swallowed by Naxos, but it doesn't look like it (I could be wrong). I ask because there is a whole lot of their back catalogue I'd love to see reissued, but which seems to linger in limbo. Mainly all that Cold War Staatskapelle Dresden stuff seems to be under their stewardship, and tends to be hard to find. 2. Why is Orfeo's back catalogue so great? Is it just the connection with Austrian radio, or something else (they seem to have a lot of Kubelik Bavarian Radio stuff, for example)? 3. Surprised Hyperion didn't get a brief digression. I take it they're just one of the indies, but they seem rather big for one of the indies. Specializing in chamber/weird concertos for the most part. Seems like they've been quite successful, and getting better, at snagging rather well known soloists (like Hamelin, for example). What do you think was the key to their relative success? And 4. Regarding the self-publishers, why, oh why, isn't the Cleveland Orchestra putting out more of their Szell legacy (or Dohnanyi, for that matter!)? I recall a briefly available 10-disk set that had Szell's Missa Solemnis which I to this day kick myself for not getting. Do you think they may get to this stuff eventually? Of all that stuff that should NOT be sitting in a vault gathering dust, it is the vintage Cleveland Orchestra stuff of the 50s through the 80s. 5. Oh, and speaking of Audite, when are they going to box up that magnificent live Kubelik Mahler? What can you tell us, Uncle Dave?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

A lot more than I have time to here. Sorry. Perhaps some of these will come up in future videos, but I'm not going to make a video only to follow up with an essay!

[@olegroslak852]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Kindly consider them future video requests, then :). Particularly "Where's My Szell (and von Dohnanyi) Cleveland Stuff At?" Oh, and just one more thing (a la Peter Falk in Columbo). Maybe sometime Beethoven symphonies 1 through 8, now that Bruckner and Mahler have triumphantly wrapped up.

[@johnzito3124]

“There is no assumption of superior quality from one component.” What are your thoughts on the general success of orchestras self-producing recordings? In my opinion, it’s been a bit of a dud. When I’m browsing around, I heuristically tend to just skip over releases from CSO Resound, Berlin Phil Recordings, RCO Live, etc (LSO Live less so). The ratio of trash or filler to great releases just seems higher for that component than for the other two (majors and indies). Do you think I’m missing something?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That's what happens when the inmates run the asylum. You're right.

[@ThreadBomb]

It depends on (1) who they hire to do the recording, and (2) the quality of the recording venue. LSO and the Berlin Phil have famously bad acoustics, which would play a large part in your reaction.

[@bluestripetiger]

The only label i knew growing up was DG, once i started collecting i became aware of Decca, Philips, and EMI. It's sad how so many of these labels have been absorbed. I am thankful for Sony for the original box sets they have been putting out. Of the indies BIS and Brilliant have been pleasant surprises. Anything Hyperion is always quality. I've always considered Naxos to be the poor man's DG. Once up on a time Naxos didn't mean much, but today being signed by Naxos is big. The white cd's are their own immediately recognizable and successful branding for Naxos.

[@adrianoseresi3525]

Glad to know you're not a creationist! All hail science! and Haydn.

[@polyphoniac]

I think it was Seth Winner who told me that Egon Petri was approached by Angel Records but turned them down thinking that a company called Angel couldn't amount to much.

[@johnfowler7660]

I wish Sony and DG would bring us two boxes of the Complete recordings of James Levine. It looks like he has finished recording. Warner and DG could bring us two boxes of the Complete Chicago Symphony recordings of Daniel Barenboim. (unlikely that he will make any new recordings as a guest in Chicago).

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Levine is not exactly a hot commodity right now...

[@presbyterosBassI]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Persona non grata.

[@kgus123]

My knowledge of the labels ended shortly after LPs gave way to CDs. I had no idea that CBS and RCA 'merged' -- is this a sign of the Apocalypse or the Millennium?

[@kenwuesq]

Thank you for this great summary. I started listening and collecting CDs again (partly because of your videos) after 20 yrs. It’s been the one positives of this pandemic. The transformation of the industry has been fascinating while I’ve been away. Is there a chance you can record a video about the financial state of the industry, particularly on how artists, conductors, and orchestral musicians can make a living in this era? I buy CDs, but many are big boxes from artists during the heyday of the classical recording industry when conductors, orchestras, and soloists could record hundreds of CDs. In this age of streaming and KZbin allowing entire albums/concerts to stream, how can new/current classical musicians survive, especially after this past year?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It would be very interesting, but I don't really have the expertise. I have pieces of the puzzle, but not the hard data.

[@kenwuesq]

​@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you for responding and for being conscientious about asking labels for permission before using clips.

[@matthewv789]

For an individual performer (orchestras being so expensive that donor support is constantly needed, and “making money” cannot be a goal), my feeling is, by building an audience of “1000 true fans” who are willing to buy their premium priced CDs and LPs, their branded “merch” (tshirts, mugs, posters, tote bags), and donate/subscribe through Patreon, combined of course with playing lots of live concerts. Releasing tracks on streaming could follow three goals: get on mood playlists in order to get a large number of streams by catering to high school/college students who use them as background for studying (that is, enough streams to make real money), use streaming like radio to reach new audiences via “singles”, some listeners of which might eventually buy the album elsewhere, and eventually release other tracks as back catalog for the incremental gains and exposure. Building a large audience online requires regular new posts and most often benefits greatly from talking directly to your audience, not just uploading music. There’s also a lot of competition and not everyone succeeds at this. A few rise to the top and most of the rest struggle. As Dave mentions, there are too many talented graduates of conservatories and Hochschules for the market demand. Most struggle to cobble together freelance careers with a variety of fee-per-service regional orchestras and teaching. The best sit comfortably in big orchestras and teach at the conservatories. Only a very lucky few make a good living as solo artists.

[@kenwuesq]

​@@matthewv789 Thanks for your insight. Classical music is suffering from the music industry-wide conundrum of how to balance seamless dispersion of one's art with monetizing talent. Growing up in the 90s, all the videos of orchestral concerts were out of reach for me on VHS and DVD. However, when the local PBS station broadcast Chicago Symphony Orchestra concerts, I'd record and treasure them. Now, those concert videos are a click away on KZbin, which is likely a good development, especially when many videos are out of print. I hope viewers are also inspired to purchase the music eventually so artists can earn a good living and continue to entertain us.

[@flowsouth8496]

Great video Dave. How about this for a video topic related to the recording industry: Alfred Scholz, the most prolific conductor you've never heard of. There seems to be an entire cottage industry dedicated to selling his recordings. And regarding boxed sets, how about a boxed set of the complete Alfred Scholz catalogue. :)

[@barryguerrero7652]

Speaking of label nuttiness, I've noticed that things that normally came out on EMI - then Warner Classics (after they swallowed EMI) - are now coming out as Erato. Go figure!

[@lgoldman]

What about Telarc? I don’t think that was mentioned. My very first CD was one of theirs.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Great Indie label.

[@chadweirick67]

I loved this! Thank you I didn't know a lot of this information.. I would be curious if at some point you might discuss what actually goes on with the Pulitzer prize for music. How do they get nominated who picks them and is it really an indication of quality or politics?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Politics. End of story.

[@WMAlbers1]

Actually there is also a rostrum of composers/musicians on solely KZbin and Spotify....

[@nihilistlemon1995]

I am a creationist Dave . Am disappointed by your beginning on how you don't mentioned historical documents like the Flintstones.

[@thomasbirkhahn9616]

Where do Brilliant Classics fit in there?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Same concept as Naxos, basically, only with more content licensed from elsewhere.

[@thomasbirkhahn9616]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Ah, thanks!

[@michaelhughes1504]

How does Tinnitus Classics fit into all of this? And how are you going to handle distribution once you start up your associated early music label, Editions Meniere?

[@methuseling]

Mein ear hurts

[@presbyterosBassI]

When the Japanese bought Columbia and RCA, and Americans bought Deutsche Grammophon, I knew the world was upside down.

[@simonvaughan6017]

It's an indication of how far the independents have overtaken the majors that I was surprised when Martin Fröst left BIS for Sony. I suppose they must have offered him a very lucrative contract, but it can't be artistically fulfilling working for a major.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

They aren't paying anything. It's merely a question of label prestige or distribution. What could the economics possible by on a clarinet record in today's market?

[@simonvaughan6017]

@@DavesClassicalGuide In that case, I really don't understand it. As far as I'm concerned, BIS is a far more prestigious label than Sony! Fröst's Sony recordings seem to have garnered a lot of Amazon reviews, though, so I suppose he and his agent knew what they were doing.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@simonvaughan6017 Why should they know what they are doing?

[@simonvaughan6017]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Perhaps they don't. I just meant that _someone's_ obviously buying his recordings for Sony, even if I'm not. Still, I don't know of any other musicians who have forsaken BIS for a major label. I think most of them know they're on to a good thing.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@simonvaughan6017 Several have, Neeme Järvi first among them. He remade a slew of his BIS repertoire for DG.