Music Chat: Why Finish The Unfinished?

[@christianstark2381]

It's only logical that Sibelius burnt his sketches of the 8th. Being Finnish, you just do NOT leave behind an un-finnished symphony.

[@msholmes]

There were some sketches left in Ainola which are now located in the archives of Helsinki University Library. They have been recorded. Also, the whole situation is a little more complicated than many lead on. Hansen Editions in Copenhagen possessed several pages of Sibelius’s manuscript at one point, but was asked by JS to scrap them. I don’t know anyone who wouldn’t want to hear those pages if they suddenly were found.

[@bbailey7818]

@@msholmes I believe that more than one visitor to Sibelius' home in the mid to late 30s swore the symphony was complete and they saw it. If so, someone should have grabbed it and run. At gunpoint if necessary. ;)

[@tareldarion6791]

I think guys missed a Point of this great comment xd

[@samuelheddle]

More tam-tams! I hope nobody ever knocks something over in your apartment, I'm picturing a domino effect sounding like the 1812 overture cannons or something.

[@trevorguy63]

Finster and Mildred are on it, probably😂 (Dave's new kittens)

[@Xanthe_Cat]

I'm glad you mentioned the Berio-Schubert /Rendering/, I think it stands up extremely well to comparison with the academic completion by Professor Brian Newbould, because Berio has a composer's flair, sensibility, and style - which is in firm control of the work even when he is orchestrating Schubert as distinct to adding his collages to fill in the compositional voids, marked off with celesta. I heard the piece in its original two-movement form in 1990 and was struck by the poetic way in which the structure disintegrates at the points where Berio runs out of Schubertian sketch material - I totally agree with you that this is a viable approach to dealing with the huge problems of integrating what is extant in the sketches. Since it's 200 years to the month since Schubert left behind another unfinished symphony (the one in E major, from August 1821: D 729) I put together a score on IMSLP to show how little exists of it, even though (like Mahler 10) we have a continuous sketch from the first 110 bars orchestrated by Franz himself all the way to the end of the finale. There’s a somewhat anaemic completion of it by Prof. Newbould as you would expect, but there's also a completion by Felix Weingartner - who was no slouch as a conductor, and he doesn’t schlep around with Schubert - the Weingartner/Schubert Symphony in E is as fine a piece as the Berio/Schubert /Rendering/.

[@chadweirick67]

I think at the end of every unfinished piece right where the composer stopped writing just write in a giant Tam Tam crash and let It fade out into nothingness

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I have been suggesting that for years.

[@johnanderton4200]

I love Mahler's Tenth as much as any of his symphonies; I agree about the rickety transitions, especially after the reappearance of the Death's Head chord in the finale, but there are passages of aching nostalgia in the first scherzo and a lot of powerful material elsewhere outside of the first movement and Purgatorio.. I would hate to be without the completed work.

[@matthewbbenton]

My ending for Turandot has Calaf falling madly in love with the aged emperor instead of Turandot, who stabs herself and collapses next to Liu’s body. The people rejoice, Ping, Pang, and Pong start making out, and Timur shrugs his shoulders comically as the curtain falls.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Works for me.

[@michaweinst3774]

"You can get away with faking Mozart, more than you can from faking Bruckner and Mahler". Alfred Schnittke has proved this point successfully many times

[@tomross5347]

The silliest "completion" of all has got to be the addition of a Pluto movement (by Collin Matthews) to Holst's 'Planets'. Holst was portraying the supposed astrological significance of the planets; a newly discovered planet with no astrological significance didn't change anything. I don't think Matthews did a bad job of making Holstian sounds, but the work as the composer left it provided all the Holstian sounds that were needed. Holst's ending, with a women's chorus fading to silence, was so clearly a finale that anything coming after it was bound to seem jarringly out of place.

[@johnb6723]

And Pluto is no longer considered a planet anyways, but is a very large asteroid.

[@wendychen5779]

A more powerful rejection to adding a Pluto section is that Holst himself could have done it if he had believe it should be added. He was alive at the time of the (now false) Pluto "planet" discovery. He had the chance of doing it himself and chose not to. A wise decision it turned out. A true Holst lover should respect that decision.

[@robkeeleycomposer]

Agreed. Not just silly, but an example of shameless opportunism. Matthews has done a lot for Holst and for British music especially, in his role as editor a recording producer, but this was an little more than an act of chutzpah. He can orchestrate with huge skill, but he cannot hold a candle to Holst's melodic and harmonic invention. For record, I have no problem with the Mahler 10, to which he and his brother David contributed.

[@whistlerfred6579]

@@johnb6723 Truth be told, Collin Mathews "Pluto" made me glad that Pluto was demoted...

[@HassoBenSoba]

But Matthews was not the first.....let's not forget Lenny Bernstein's live, entirely IMPROVISED orchestral version ("Pluto, the Unpredictable") at the end of his 1972 NY Phil "Young Person's" telecast of Holst's Planets...a one-time only (and thus totally unique), fun way to end the concert by doing something truly wacky. Watch it on You-Tube, should you have the inclination. LR

[@Runicen]

As we see an increase in tam-tam playing in the videos, I find myself wondering how David's neighbors have annoyed him this week. Great video, as always.

[@KingOuf1er]

And another thought! If the most important purpose of music is to instill emotion in the listener, then an incomplete work is just as capable of serving that purpose, and in one respect is even more powerful than a completed one. For example, I was listening to a recent acquisition - the Rachel Podger / Brecon Baroque recording of The Art of Fugue on Channel Classics, and as the final section petered out into nothingness, I found myself unable to hold back the tears. The sadness of the image of the great composer himself laying down his pen and turning into physical nothingness was overwhelming.

[@davidhollingsworth1847]

It would have been interesting if Franz Lehar finished Turandot. From what I read, he was one of the candidates to complete the work, and with little wonder; Lehar and Puccini were good friends and their music are like first cousins, but with distinct personalities.

[@dennischiapello3879]

That is amazing! I never knew that.

[@huskydogg7536]

I love the Mahler 10th as finished by Cooke. Especially the finale! What a unique opening with the funeral drum beat that supposedly was inspired by such a thing passing by Mahler's New York apartment. Love the climax and its build up. And love the quiet coda that to me at least represents acceptance of death. Outside of that however I completely agree with that all other completions are a waste of time. Bruckner's 9th is just fine in three movements, no more needs to be said.

[@matthiasm4299]

I think sometimes it can be a blessing in disguise when a work is left unfinished, for instance in the case of Schubert. I love that it just fades out into nothingness - one of my favorite symphony endings. What more is there to say?

[@jfddoc]

Pete Schickele aka PDQ Bach was so good at this that he wrote an "Unbegun Symphony." BTW, I saw another website that referred to you as the "notorious DH." Love it!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I'm honored...

[@jacobstarling734]

I love these rant videos- you're at your most hilarious and witty when you're indignant. Please post more of these!! I'd love some more rants about Maestro Currentzis or Roger Norrington.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Um, you can find those. Just use the search feature on my channel home page.

[@jacobstarling734]

@@DavesClassicalGuide ahh thankyou so much!!

[@RequiemAeternam01]

There's a fantastic completed work of Mozart's that was completed in 1991 by Erik Smith. It's the Allegretto for string quartet in B flat major, K. 589a, and after much research it turned out that it was an original minuet for the String Quartet No. 22 in B flat major, K. 589. Much of it was completed by Mozart, but just the coda wasn't finished. Smith used the previous melodies and just merged it together to make the coda. It truly is a beautiful piece, and was given its premiere recording on the Philips Mozart Edition, with the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields' Chamber Ensemble.

[@johnfowler7660]

Are you familiar with Max Goberman's recording of Schubert's Unfinished Symphony? - it was on a CBS Odyssey LP in the 70s. He played the scherzo exactly as Schubert wrote it. The scherzo starts out with full orchestra then thins down to piano solo. After a minute of this , the pianist slows down, clutches his chest, then falls off the piano bench (at least this is what I imagine happened). The music ends mid-phrase.

[@jeremyberman7808]

I'm very familiar with this recording. I listened to it quite often when I was a kid. It was one of my father's recordings. There are several theories why Schubert never completed the 8th symphony. I think at the time he wrote it, what to write for a third and fourth movement, was a question mark for him. If he had lived longer, he might have returned to the score and done a good job completing it. I have no interest in listening to the completions done since. I listened to some of Brian Newbould's completion of what might've become his tenth symphony, and it just isn't what Schubert would've accepted as a completed work.

[@MDK2_Radio]

I get most of this, because you’re right, most completions have little to recommend them by. But thinking that the actual requiem and kyrie movements from Mozart’s Requiem aren’t among his absolute greatest bits of music is an opinion I can’t fathom. I have no problem with the trombone solo either, though that is decidedly NOT great. Anyway, I wonder if Haydn could have come up with a completion that everyone would have loved. Ah well. Süssmayr did what he could and it’s satisfactory. As far as Schubert is concerned, I know that the B minor entr’acte is also supposed to be scored for the same orchestra as the 8th and that bolsters the argument that it was supposed to be its finale, but to me it sounds like different music. I’m not a musician and have a hard time identifying the components of a symphony when listening to one, but usually there’s something familiar enough from movement to movement that shows me how they’re related and part of a whole, and I just don’t hear it in that entr’acte. Maybe it’s just me.

[@pabmusic1]

I'm pleased to hear what you say about Tony Payne's Elgar 3 - it sums up pretty well what I have felt since I first heard it (and bought a score). Micael Kennedy used the word 'kaleidescopic' about Elgar's orchestration, but it could equally well apply to his method of composing. In other words, he rearranges ideas endlessly, and you don't see the overall shape till he's finished. And you just can't get near that with the pile of genuinely small sketches he left. The frustrating thing is that he is said to have played through on the piano the whole thing for a private audience that included G. B. Shaw, Adrian Boult, and Fred Gaisberg of HMV in September 1933. Much of it was no doubt improvised, but - oh for a recording of that!

[@franklehman8677]

I could listen to you dump on that stupid Tuba Mirum all day long! And what a fabulous anecdote about Rautavaara!

[@bbailey7818]

Totally right about Turandot. Puccini got himself wrapped up with Liu, the real pathetic ending, most like his earlier little heroines, that he painted himself into a corner, boxed himself in. It's impossible to ignore the death of Liu. He took the coward's way out of his dilemma and made his exit so he wouldn't have to finish it. Berio gave it a quiet ending. I heard the Elgar "Third" once and have never taken it off the shelf since. Ditto Beethoven's 10th, a sick joke.

[@dunhammike3]

One possible exception, perhaps only because of its audacity, is Bach's "The Art of the Fugue." There was a bit of a cottage industry around a hundred years ago, especially in Germany, of trying to figure out the finale. The argument went that all the parts are there in the preceding fugues; the clever musician simply had to figure out how to put them together -- and there could be more than one way to do that. After all, Bach was known to write such "puzzle pieces," notably in "The Musical Offering," where the performer was expected to decipher the written notation into a complete piece. There was once a recording on London, I think, with the Munich Orchestra, I think, that featured a completion by someone named Franz Xaver Mayer, I think. It was said that Mayer worked on it for years and the day after it was premiered circa 1920, garnering praise from critics and musicians, he killed himself. I can't find the double album any more or any other recording of the Mayer completion, but I recall it as being surprisingly satisfactory and, if nothing else, a fascinating musical commentary on "The Art of the Fugue."

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

There are many completions to the final fugue, and you are right--much of it is purely mechanical work according to the rules of counterpoint. The difference here is that Bach very likely had to have completed it originally because he would have had to have the final combination of themes in mind in order to design the rest. In other words, at least to some extent, he worked backwards, so it's not correct to say that the Art of Fugue is unfinished. It is incomplete as it has come down to us.

[@dunhammike3]

@@DavesClassicalGuide An excellent and pertinent distinction.

[@KingOuf1er]

Another, rather different, example of a ‘completion’ (which is also, in a sense, the opposite) is Alexander Goehr’s opera ‘Arianna’. This uses the complete 17th century libretto which Monteverdi was apparently intending to use for an opera, but which he never got far in composing: the only section he wrote was the famous ‘Lament’. Whilst Goehr wrote most of his opera entirely in his own style, when he reached the text of the Lament, he uses Monteverdi’s melody ‘recomposed’ à la Goehr. Most commentators were ‘unappreciative’ to say the least, but I rather liked it (I saw one of the première production performances) and was pleased when a recording appeared on NMC.

[@timsika7655]

Beethoven or Bust is a fabulous book. It introduced me to some amazing music--most of which I might have never ever stumbled upon.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you!

[@msholmes]

Mozart’s Tuba Miriam trombone solo is an homage to a baroque chamber music genre from ca. 1700. There are tons of sacred arias with obbligato trombone solo by various composers, particularly in the Hapsburg empire. Mozart clearly had this in mind. Also, there are passages in Süssmayr’s completion that emulate Biber’s F Minor Requiem. The exact resemblances are ghostly even. I am convinced that Süssmayr had access to many manuscripts and prints of the 17th century Austro-Bohemian Requiems at the time of Mozart’s death, and used them for inspiration.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That's nice, but stupid is as stupid sounds. I couldn't care less where it comes from or why. In German, "The Last Trump" translates as "The Last Trombone." For all we know, Mozart was making a joke. It wouldn't have been beyond him.

[@msholmes]

@@DavesClassicalGuide every preference is subjective. You're the first I've witnessed who has disliked the Tuba mirum. And that's OK. I admire your candor.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@msholmes Thank you. I'm not worried. I know lots of people who think that trombone solo is idiotic. I'm not alone.

[@bbailey7818]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Cherubini's c minor Requiem is a MUCH better work. (Complete with tam).

[@johnsimca7093]

Mozart’s sacred music suffered from the limitations placed on him by Archbishop Colloredo: the church service cannot exceed 45 minutes. The requiem represents different parts of the service so a “choppyness” is to be expected. The trombone solo, calling the deceased to judgment is most appropriate. It is most unfortunate that Mozart’s best sacred music was left incomplete

[@Scottlp2]

Why do people feel the need? Nature abhors a vacuum. PDQ Bach-ahhh Echo Sonata for 2 unfriendly groups of instruments :-). Great stuff.

[@josecarmona9168]

Quite interesting talk, David. Thanks for it. I'd like to add to the list Alban Berg's Lulu. I think that this is a case in with Cerha's completion (really it was more an orchestration) is quite right, and improves the opera. What do you think about it?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I think it's excellent, but as you say, degree of completeness matters as does the style of the music being completed. That's an excellent example. Thank you.

[@marknewkirk4322]

I think Act III scene 1 is problematic - exceedingly difficult to perform, hard for the listener to follow. Act III scene 2 was undoubtedly much easier to complete, and it is by far more convincing. In fact, even with my misgivings about scene 1, I simply can't imagine the opera today without Act III scene 2. It would not work.

[@marknewkirk4322]

Also the fragment of Schoenberg's Jakobsleiter in the performance edition prepared by Winfried Zillig is superb, and is one of Schoenberg's most effective works, in my humble opinion. It needs no further completion.

[@hwelf11]

@@marknewkirk4322 You are right about III:1; I'm sure Berg would have improved it had he lived longer.

[@josecarmona9168]

@@hwelf11 , I've always thought Alban Berg would have made the first scene of the third act a little shorter, had he lived to complete the opera. The second scene for me is fantastic. But in any case, for me Cerha's orchestration is amazingly good and "bergian", so he made a really good work.

[@sjc1204]

I'm narrow minded regarding completions and I'm likely missing out on some good music but I just can't get past the fact that the composer did not really write these works. Sure, there were sketches but not completed works. I absolutely love Mahler's Adagio that would have been part of a tenth symphony. Gorgeous. I wasn't aware that Brahms destroyed his sketches. I agree that was super smart. In 100 years, people will be asking each other if they prefer human or AI composed works.

[@davidhollingsworth1847]

One can argue that the completions of Borodin's Prince Igor (courtesy of Rimsky-Korsakov, Glazunov, with contributions by Lyadov and Ippolitov-Ivanov) as well as Mussorgsky's Khovanshchina (again completed by Rimsky-Korsakov), were definitely worth it. As so Borodin's Third Symphony that Glazunov finished (or Glinka's unfinished Symphony edited by Vissarion Shebalin).

[@bbailey7818]

I always miss it when they cut the third act because Borodin purportedly had less to do with it. Anyway, how can one cut the Polovtsian March that begins it, no matter who wrote it, it's one of the great things in the score? Beecham liked to play it and recorded it. Russians mostly completed things by committee anyway, except for Tchaikovsky and Rubinstein who managed to finish their own stuff.

[@robkeeleycomposer]

As a friend of the late Anthony Payne, and an ardent Elgarian, especially of the Symphonies, I'd like to put in a good word for his elaboration (it never claimed to be a completion) of the 3rd Symphony sketches. I agree that it has its weaknesses, especially in the finale, but I cannot agree that it is 'grotesque'. Tony loved Elgar's music for decades, and was a not inconsiderable composer in his own right. I recommend his little book (published by Faber) on the processes involved. Whatever the result, from the large number of recordings, it clearly struck a chord with a lot of people.

[@wilsonfirth6269]

I was in that fortunate position of turning the radio on and hearing this lovely music which sounded both familiar and unfamiliar. While I was in that state of ignorance, the thought came to me was that this was exactly how music ought to go. It took me a little time to realise that it was the slow movement of Elgar's Third. I still listen to this symphony almost as often as the other two.

[@waverly2468]

Can you explain how much of the last movement of the Tchaikovsky Symphony #7 was the work of Bogatryryev?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I've never looked into it, sorry. Perhaps someone here can comment.

[@lowe7471]

Dave - would you maybe consider a top 10 or top 5 best live performances (as opposed to studio recordings)? I've been listening to the John Williams VPO concert live on DG and am in awe of the sound quality...wondered what others were so brilliant, warm, etc. Thanks.

[@joncheskin]

I once went to a performance of the Art of the Fugue by the Julliard Quartet, they stopped in the middle of the fugue that Bach left incomplete and the concert ended. I found it a bit overly-dramatic, but at least they didn't play any of the attempted completions. It's nice to hear a composer's actual intentions without any interjections from people who might think they are taking dictation from the dead and passing it off as the real deal.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Actually, some of those completions (Tovey's, for example) are excellent, and more along the lines of restorations. In a work like TAOF, we know that Bach had to have finished the fugue, or at least sketched out how he would finish it because the final combination of themes had to be worked out in advance, and the rest of work designed around it; so it's not as if it's missing any transcendent strokes of genius or unknowable digressions. It's mostly a mechanical process--more like completing an unfinished building from the existing blueprint.

[@joncheskin]

@@DavesClassicalGuide That's really interesting, I'll check them out!

[@marknewkirk4322]

I made a comment months ago about Sibelius's 8th. I think it is worth repeating here: In Finland they recently found the complete score of Sibelius's 8th Symphony - it was contained inside a sack of flour made from tree bark. Unfortunately, the very tannic tree bark flour degraded the paper, which disintegrated on contact with the air, which was -40 degrees (I forget whether C or F). Fortunately, the disintigrated paper fell back in the sack with the bark flour, so Finnish musicologists are busy at work sorting the bark flour from the paper flour. Paper flour specks are being numbered and catalogued for future musicological evaluation and the eventual publication of the long-awaited Finnish National Eighth.

[@aatim2308]

What a story! Could you please provide some links? I'd like to read about it myself.

[@ftumschk]

My Turandot completion has the ice-queen and Calaf alone on stage singing "My day is your night, your night is my day" for half an hour in semi-darkness. Don't ask me where I get these ideas from.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

LOL!

[@ewmbr1164]

If I remember correctly, Michael Gielen once led a performance of Mozart's Requiem, stopping with the last bar Mozart had written. I was not there at that performance, but heard and read about it. The Requiem was programmed with other works to the theme of "The Abruptness/Abrupt Silence of Death", or something very German like that. At any rate, the Mozart Requiem falling silent abruptly left quite an impression on those who were listening, according to the reviews. To Mahler 10: I wonder whether not playing Deryck Cooke's Performing Version would deprive us of the music Mahler has written but which would be left unheard. I agree with Dave that Cooke is honest, and that he would indeed onbject strongly to calling the symphony simply Die Zehnte, as only two fully ochestrated movements exist, and the others are molded into a "performing version" - which are Cooke's, with respectful use of Mahler's material. There are now plenty of recordings, several of them offering different approaches than Cooke's (including one by Rudolf Barshai) - yet this has led, in my view, to the rather uncritical use of the term ""Mahler Tenth", as if it is Mahler's finished work. The debate will never end, I suppose. Still, I wouldn't mind a performance of Cooke's Performing Version here in Boston with the BSO, if only to offer performers and listeners alike to experience it and draw their own conclusions. I first heard the work on Simon Rattle's recording with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra in the mid-1980s. In late January/early February 1996 I was in Berlin and lucky to be able to attend the performance by the Berlin Philharmonic, also under Rattle - during which one could hear the orchestra having some difficulties as it was their first exposure to the piece. They went on to produce a fine recoring sometime later, when Rattle had become their Music Director.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I first heard the Cooke live with the BSO at Tanglewood.

[@bplonutube]

I sang for a number of years with the Robert Shaw festival singers In their annual Carnegie Hall concerts. The year after Mr. Shaw died we did the Mozart Requiem in the completion by Robert Levin. It is a prime example of musicological didacticism run amok. It was horrible. I remember my colleagues, most of whom were college choral directors with the doctorates and years of experience throwing the score on the ground calling it a piece of trash. Levin used a lot of very early Mozart before he had learned how to part right and some of it was downright unsingable. In my opinion, the part that Mozart left behind inspired Süssmayr to do some of his best work, In particular of the completion of the Lacrimosa. Süssmayr’s own requiem is very pedestrian by comparison.

[@martinhaub2602]

Personally, I'm really pleased that some talented hard-working people took the time to complete music that otherwise we might not get to hear. Composition by committee? It can work! I like the Mahler, Bruckner and Puccini completions. Others are clearly questionable, like the Elgar 3rd, but it's still a good listen. And really, is competing a work any worse than tinkering with a completed score by making cuts or rescoring?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes.

[@whistlerfred6579]

I'd be curious about your take on attempts to finish Ives' "Universe Symphony". For what it's worth, I think the "completion" by Larry Austin's works the best, although I can't help but think of it as an Austin composition based on Ives' sketches and overall concepts.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It's nonsense. You're right, it's not Ives and I have no time for it.

[@scottvanderbilt1279]

I would be interested in knowing whether you have ever listened to any of the completions done by AI software and what your thoughts are on those. E.g., the "completion" of the Schubert by a Huawei AI (aided by Lucas Cantor) back in 2019.

[@RudieVissenberg]

After hitting the tamtam I had to switch to subtitles..... my eardrums were torn apart....

[@iggyreilly2463]

I disagree re. the Requiem. The Mozart completion is uneven (and it uses a good portion of original Mozart material) but as Beethoven is supposed to have said, "If Mozart did not write the music, then the man who wrote it was a Mozart." And if memory serves (and I don't know that it does), Haydn was supposed to have said something along these lines: "If the quartets and Requiem were his only surviving works, they would be enough to render him immortal." The offending trombone solo in the Tuba Mirum is the obvious model for the bass solo in the Qui Tollis of Haydn's 'Nelson' Mass. It's strange. There appear to be three camps: 1) those who worship the work for its mysterious origins and pathetique back story, its minor-keyed drama presaging his own death, etc.; 2) those who use its incomplete torso as an excuse to trash it as wholly unsatisfactory despite the likely several hands who took part in its completion; 3) those of us who enjoy it. I'm surprised the completion is as successful and seamless as it is.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That's basically what I said. I don't much care for the piece, but the completion isn't as bad as some say it is. Not does it have to be "great" in order to be enjoyed. What Haydn or Beethoven may have said, though, is irrelevant and evidence of nothing (assuming any of it is true, which I strongly doubt). Just stick with the evidence of your own ears.

[@bbailey7818]

@@DavesClassicalGuide My own ears tell me that Cherubini's c minor Requiem is a vastly finer work.

[@markgibson6654]

Well said sir

[@tomross5347]

Does anyone know if the passage with a flute solo in Cooke's Mahler 10 completion is from the composer's sketches? To me it sounds nothing like Mahler, but it's gorgeous. In another context, I would like it.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, it is Mahler's.

[@wendychen5779]

I am surprised that anyone would consider that flute solo in the Mahler 10th finale not sounding like Mahler. Even before I had a chance to see a facsimile of Mahler's sketch, I knew it was Mahler's conception when I heard it first played by the Philadelphia Orchestra (using an earlier Cooke version). The heart-breaking flute solo is, to me, in the spirit of the "Abschied" (Das Lied von der Erde). As David has confirmed, thank goodness, it's Mahler's.

[@tomross5347]

@@wendychen5779 It's hard for me to say why the flute theme sounded uncharacteristic of Mahler to me; part of the problem was simply that listening to a completion makes me suspicious -- it makes everything sounds inauthentic! The flute passage seemed a little too sweet somehow, or maybe too direct and uncomplicated. I expect a Mahler theme to feel more conflicted or ambiguous than that. Anyway, I'm relieved to hear that the straightforward expressiveness of that passage was something Mahler actually wanted!

[@Unitedsates]

I thought Mozart wrote all the Sequence up into the Lacrymosa and we have it in his hand. That would mean that the Tuba Mirum is his.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I said that.

[@edwinbaumgartner5045]

I have a real great idea for Tinnitus Classics: Let's do the Bruckner String Quartets. Don't say that they are inexistent! They exist. I'm sure, there are unfinished bits of Aequales for four trombones, which are in intention String Quartets. One can restore Bruckners ORIGINAL (!) ideas and finish the works as he probably intended. But guess: After having finished the nine or so String Quartets, one can start to make critical editions of what would have been the first, second and final versions of the works. When Tinnitus Classics has managed this, one could start with Bruckners operas.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Actually, they are operettas. He was the Léhar of Upper Austria. AND he wrote his own librettos--they are hysterical from what I can tell.

[@dennischiapello7243]

I'm surprised you made no reference to Berio's version of the Turandot ending! And I don't see any mention of it in the comments below. I've listened to it, conducted by Ricardo Chailly on a disc called Puccini Rarities, and it's an interesting take. It's preferable to Alfano, as far as I'm concerned, but it would definitely NOT be a crowd pleaser, because it eschews a big romantic duet and substitutes a passage of nonvocal, mysterious "transformation" music. But it satisfies your desire for a quiet ending! (You might do a talk on Berio's interesting experiments with pre-existing music. Besides Rendering, there is the Four Versions of the Boccherini March (that's not the actual title), the Folk Songs, etc.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I didn't mention Berio because no one cares about it, and I was giving him credit for Rendering anyway. I've heard it and I think it's also pretty bad--dull in fact.

[@AlexMadorsky]

Here’s a rare instance where we disagree. I think Bruckner 9 and Mahler 10 are great symphonies, and at least some of the completions are worthy of their name. As you say, each work differs. Mahler’s sketches on the 10th are pretty detailed. It may be the case that you don’t think Cooke, Mazzetti, Barshai, Carpenter, or Wheeler were up to the task from an editorial perspective, I think Cooke nailed it pretty well, personally. Barshai’s 10th is more of a kitchen sink approach, but I think it’s very entertaining orchestration and Mahlerian in its own albeit different way. I think there is, in fact, something that makes far less sense than the Cooke completion: all the 20th-century celebrity conductors who decided to do only one or two movements from the 10th. Mahler never intended any of these movements to stand alone as concert overtures! They’re part of a symphony and don’t make sense removed from a symphonic context. Play one of the completions or don’t, listen to it or don’t, but don’t present us with an out-of-context adagio where the symphonic logic no longer applies. Yech pooie. If I don’t like a completion, it’s generally because I don’t like the sketches the composer left behind. I don’t like Elgar 3 because I don’t like the music, not because it’s Elgar 3. I don’t really like Elgar 1 or Elgar 2, either, much as I have tried to do so over the years. For me Payne’s work does indeed sound like an Elgar symphony, which is to say rather dull and stiff.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Obviously you can like what you like, but don't justify your taste on the basis of a falsehood. Mahler's sketches are NOT "pretty detailed" at those points I discuss. They often boil down to a single line of melody They are devoid of contrapuntal interest and lack most indications of scoring. The fact that Mahler or Bruckner intended to write more does not mean that there is anything wrong with playing less. Obviously it would have been better had they completed what they started, but they didn't, and we're not better off with anybody's crack at it, as opposed to their own.

[@josecarmona9168]

Well, that's an interesting point of view, but I would say that composers want their music to be played, and it was (and even it is now, many Ligeti's works have been performed this way) a common thing to perform a single movement of a work when the date of the promised first performance arrives and it's yet unfinished. So, I believe it's appropriate to play these movements isolate.

[@AlexMadorsky]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I still think there’s enough meat on those bones to do the kind of educated guesswork Cooke engaged in. To be sure, these completions are not for everyone, but Cooke did more than mere hackwork simply trying to make silk out of the proverbial sow’s ear. Carpenter might fit into that category, I’ll grant that.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@AlexMadorsky I agree with you about Cooke (and said as much).

[@FedericoPala]

Who completes the work may also be more skilled. I was listening to the reconstruction of Johann Rufinatscha third Symphony. Why????

[@classicalemotion]

One of the worst I remember was the Robert Levin's Mozart's c-minor Mass. Numbers and numbers that Mozart didn't even dream about, written in totally silly and obviously baddly done, even with parallel fourths !!! I think a cheap work just to make money...

[@bbailey7818]

David, where do you stand on Bartok's (or Bartok-Serly's) Viola Concerto?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I think it's terrible.

[@bbailey7818]

@@DavesClassicalGuide lol, thanks. I'm sure it would have been a masterpiece had BB lived to finish it.

[@HeelPower200]

I think completions are about basking in the glory of true genius, hitchhiking your way to "greatness and(historical or maybe other kinds of) immortality." I think the classical music has a lot of pseudo-religious things going on and is very much about connecting and associating with the dead. A lot of people think the classical greats were speaking god's word and a completion is a way to self-insert and trace a sort of lineage back to that stuff. Because many think the best music has already been written in the past and they think it is more than "just music".

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Very true.

[@jamescpotter]

Didn't someone attempt to finish Tchaikovsky's 7th symphony? Unless I am hallucinating, I heard a recording of this and it did not sound like Tchaikovsky. Also the same goes for Brahms. Someone tried to either orchestrate or complete one of his incomplete works and it did not sound like Brahms. It's the same thing with a Master of chess attempting to anticipate a grandmaster's awareness. It ain't there!

[@druther28]

The ending of your rant was brilliant. Thanks for your thoughtful and expressive analyses.

[@hiphurrah1]

Listening to this wonderful intelligent talk on my tv, brought me in a state of trance. You should have used the tamtam at the end to get me out of it, lol. But I totally agree on these completions, no one would dare to complete an unfinished sketch by a painter.

[@carlconnor5173]

David, I don’t have your book on Sibelius (yet!), so please excuse if it contains the subject. I’ve wondered if Tapiola wasn’t possibly a part of his destroyed 8th in some form. Am I reaching or is there any credence to the idea? My guess is that we just have no way of knowing.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

We do know and you are reaching. Tapiola is Tapiola. It was a New York Philharmonic commission.

[@carlconnor5173]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for that, David. Do you cover the whole question about the 8th in your book? From all that I’ve read there probably isn’t much to say about it. I know he sporadically worked on it over a long period of time, promising more than once to produce it, before he apparently burned it with a bunch of other stuff.

[@bartolo498]

The good thing about Mozart's c minor mass is that the parts that were finished by Mozart were really (mostly) finished. So one can do easily without completions. Whereas the Requiem was so incomplete that one needs Süssmayr or other additions to get a somewhat performable piece. I don't know if this is the reason why I prefer the mass. I think the Requiem is maybe the most overrated piece by Mozart (and I am extremely wary of listeners who don't like a lot of Mozart but adore the Requiem).

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

You said it, brother!

[@edwardcasper5231]

Why not finish some, repeat, some, of the unfinished? I understand both sides of this argument, and unlike you, I'm a bit torn on the subject. But you raised the main issue with me - honesty. It's vital to understand what these "completions" "realizations" speculations" are - and are not. I find most parts of the various conjectures about what Mahler might have done to finish his 10th Symphony enjoyable for the most part, but none are fully satisfying. I have some thoughts about what I'd do differently, but of course, there's no way for me to know what Mahler would have done because I'm not Mahler. But I, like others, can make an educated guess, but that's all. I enjoy musical speculation if it's labeled as such. Bruno Walter essentially "completed" Das Lied von der Erde when he edited it for publication without Mahler's feedback. Mahler usually made changes as he rehearsed his pieces for their initial performances, so we don't know definitively what changes he might have made. Maybe he would have reversed the order of a couple of the inner movements a la the 6th. We don't know. I don't necessarily think Mahler would have cut down the last movement of the 10th, as you and Leonard Slatkin do. To that point, I read that he cut part of the Finale in a performance he conducted of the Cooke, about which he wrote an article. But in that performance, Slatkin did make two small but significant improvements to the score - playing the muffled drum between the last two movements only once and placing the drum offstage. To me, the last two movements of the 10th should be played without a break. Enough bloviation about Mahler's 10th! LOL On the other hand, Marcel Tyberg's completion of Schubert's 8th Symphony (which I heard performed by the Phoenix Symphony), is a different story. He wrote two movements of his own to "finish" the symphony. But if it made him happy, who am I to argue? Great talk.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you for your thoughts. I do think you go too far regarding Walter's interventions in Das Lied. Your point is generic. Any composer can do anything to any work anytime and so nothing is ever really complete, is it? There is a difference between "completion" of a patently unfinished work and necessary editing for performance and publication, and it's important not to confuse the two. For all we know, Beethoven could have ditched the choral finale of the Ninth in favor of something more practical. After all, he did the same with the Grosse fuge, so why not? Once that kind of speculation starts, where does it end?

[@edwardcasper5231]

​@@DavesClassicalGuide I appreciate your very thoughtful response and your whole series of talks on this subject. As I wrote, I'm torn on completions. For the record, I agree with about 95% of your take on the topic. We probably draw the line a bit differently, but as the old saying goes, "There's no accounting for taste." But there is accounting for stupid. I guess my overarching thoughts on the topic are, "It depends" and "Be honest about what the end result is or is not." My only point about Walter was that he edited "Das Lied" without Mahler's input, since it was rather difficult to get it under the circumstances. No more no less. Should Das Lied or Mahler's 9th Symphony have remained unheard because Mahler didn't truly finish them? A purist might argue that they shouldn't be. But of course, I believe we both think they should have been completed (basically edited) and performed because the work was 99.9% finished. I guess it's a matter of degree, and I don't have a set definition of what that degree is. Where does the speculation end? I don't know. But I hope that future composers and musicologists exercise discretion about how far they go to "complete" unfinished works. I only brought up the Tyberg "completion" because I enjoyed listening to the end result, even though it wasn't Schubert, and he was honest about what he was doing. Maybe another reason I enjoyed the piece is that it introduced me to Tyberg's music, and his tragic story. Again, great talk. Thank you.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@edwardcasper5231 I get it, but you have to admit that your definition of "truly finished" is kind of, er, personal? Both Das Lied and the Ninth were absolutely, totally, utterly finished. Anything that came after, whether by Mahler or anyone else, counts as revision, not completion.

[@edwardcasper5231]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Guilty as charged! My definition is 100% personal. But isn't much of music personal? I understand the distinction you're making, and agree with 98% of it. I also realize there have to be some objective standards and facts about music, but they can't always be easily defined. Love your videos, and especially the strong opinions. Thanks for doing them.

[@bernardohanlon3498]

“Mozart was not a very good composer of sacred music anyway . . . he did not like it . . . . . he did not respond to it . . . . he had nothing absolutely spiritual in his character.” Dave, good heavens and greetings from the Penal Colonies. This is deeply problematic. So putting aside juvenilia, does not the Coronation Mass (K 317), the second set of Vespers (K 339) the Kyrie in D Minor (K 341) the Mass in C Minor (K 427), Ave Verum Corpus (K 618) and the Requiem itself refute your contention? Joseph II’s reforms had severely curtailed all sacred music during the 1780s - no wonder there was a drop off in his compositional activities of such music at the time. Constanze went on record to say that it was his favourite idiom - whether one accepts her statement or not is another matter but she said it. Dave, I am also deeply surprised that you could be so dismissive of the C Minor Mass - K 427 - whose Kyrie (with Cotrubas) is one of the wonders of the world. Mozart had so engineered things to be the next Cathedral-Composer at St Stephens at the time of his death which again undermines your argument that he had no interest in the genre. He was also a deeply committed Freemason with any number of initiation-levels to his name - this was not some boozy blokely club as a number of studies have made clear. Mozart was deeply committed to Freemasonry as a metaphysical fixture in his life. Do you really think otherwise? Best wishes, B

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes. The evidence of the music speaks for itself. Mozart's miserable experiences in Salzburg, the incomplete major sacred works, the general distriibution of his output in various genres--no, he was not especially well-disposed towards sacred music. I don't see why that should be at all controversial. To maintain otherwise, as you do, requires all kinds of special pleasing in the face of the musical (and biographical) facts. Of course, he was a musical genius. He could have written anything had he wanted to, but this is the picture he left us.

[@alexandrosprotopapas]

Turandot had to be completed because the completeness is a key issue for an opera success in the scene. The finale of Turandot is let down by Alfano's ending and the idea of Turandot's transformation into an angel of kindness. But, have not escaped our attention that the ancestor of Turandot was killed by a conquering prince. And Galaf was the same type. Ιmpulsive, indifferent, ambitious and cruel. Perhaps fairy tales associated with psychological parameters, are not so naive as much we think.

[@skeptical_Inquirer200]

Puccini promised a great love duet to close the work. Unfortunately he didn't write down the beautiful melody he had in mind.

[@msholmes]

I propose a third category to add to the smart/stupid binary scale. How about “interesting”? Some folks feel elevated by hearing unpublished or unfinished sketches by major composers. Other folks hate it. My own interest was in Sibelius, when I studied the JS manuscripts on a Fulbright grant in Finland. The sketches to the 8th Symphony probably don’t belong in a concert hall, of course, but I am one of those who really wants to hear it, along with earlier versions of the 5th Symphony, Oceanides, and the unpublished brass septets.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I like hearing them too, once. Recordings are ideal for that purpose. The problem is that promoters, be they publishers or performers, hold them forth as legitimate alternatives to final versions. Sometimes they are, and sometimes they aren't. Each case is different. Those Sibelius things are interesting, but they are not legitimate alternatives to the composer-sanctioned, final product, and should not be published and performed as such. They are musicological curiosities.

[@msholmes]

@@DavesClassicalGuide my understanding is that the curiosities began with Järvi's project on BIS, then Vänska became von Bahr's favorite for that project. Interestingly, I went backstage to meet Järvi in 2000 when he guest conducted the NSO in DC. I asked him to sign my CD liner for one of the BIS recordings (I forget which one) and he hesitated and sighed before he signed it. That was right before I asked him where his next masterclass was. He then told me about the one in Pärnu, Estonia. I went that summer. Many of the other conductors I met there had little interest in the Sibelius curiosities, but I always was interested in everything I could get my hands on. And Kaarlo Paloheimo (Sibelius family attorney at the time) was particularly generous with conductors who wanted to perform the curiosities. The Sibelius family was never against this kind of activity, but they've always been judicious about how it's handled.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@msholmes Yes, I think that's basically how it happened--in fact, with the recording of two versions, early and revised, of the Fifth Symphony. There have been some major discoveries, like The Wood Nymph, for example (that's the big one), and stuff that was otherwise unperformed (the complete Scaramouche), but I think that the works that Sibelius later revised show pretty definitively that his changes were almost always improvements.

[@msholmes]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Wood Nymph is really great! Even more interesting to hear when one takes a deep dive into the Sibelius biographies. Tawastsjerna had a knack for making his readers salivate over the stuff that was then under lock and key.

[@dizwell]

I like your alternative Turandot endings! I've always felt a revolution and everyone dying would have been much the better option! I'm so glad you brought up Elgar's 3rd. It is appalling. Partly because Payne the non-genius was completing a burned-out non-genius Elgar. There was a reason Elgar had spent over a year writing not much of it: he was well passed his best and had zero inspiration. Colin Matthews completions of some of the more minor Britten pieces stand in counterpoint to that general point, though. He knew Britten well, had absorbed a lot of his technique, and was fixing up pieces Britten had written when fully inspired. I like your Schubert-Berio example, too. Best example of that sort of 'fusion' I can think of is Britten's re-casting of Gay's Beggar's Opera. Sounds fully Britten whilst weirdly sounding very 18th century. Anyway: I enjoyed the talk a lot. So thanks for it.

[@svrfan]

A new category is born: David’s Rant on Demand!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It was a good idea, so I ran with it!

[@marknewkirk4322]

Tchaikovsky's supposed 7th Symphony as orchestrated by Semyon Bogatyrev - when I was a kid, I wanted so much for there to be more music by Tchaikovsky. But what a dog. The finale, whether in this version or in the orchestration by Taneyev, is really bad music, and it's no wonder Tchaikovsky ditched it.

[@manueljoseblancamolinos8582]

The second movement is very beautiful, especially the middle section. As for the last move it is not as bad as it seems. It is a kind of triumphal march.

[@marknewkirk4322]

The Beethoven 10th Symphony is the biggest joke of all. It is a total fraud. There is nothing there that is worthy of Beethoven, even remotely. Schubert quit working on his B minor symphony for whatever reason. It is conceivable that he was simply dissatisfied with it. I personally think the Rosamunde bit was probably originally for the symphony and was salvaged for the incidental music. I can't prove it, and beyond a point, I don't care. It is in every way less inspired music than the two finished movements. Worth hearing for what it is, but a disappointment as a symphonic finale. I enjoyed listening to Harnancourt's lecture recital on the Bruckner 9 finale in 2 language versions on an RCA recording, if I recall correctly. It certainly is interesting to know about the existing sketch. But the music does not work as it stands. I am not English, and I love both of Elgar's symphonies, and the 1st especially. The "completion" of the 3rd is less and less convincing and enjoyable as you proceed through it movement by movement. I'll let everybody guess why that is... I don't want to hear anybody else's Mozart Requiem versions. I think the Requiem is a mixed bag, but I don't want to fight cognative dissonance every time I listen to it.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

A very useful summary! I also enjoyed Harnoncourt's lecture on the finale of the 9th--it's my preferred way to learn how far Bruckner got (and why he didn't get any farther!).