Music Copyright Cases: Bitter Sweet Symphony (Why The Rolling Stones owned Richard Ashcroft's song)

Music Copyright Cases: Bitter Sweet Symphony (Why The Rolling Stones owned Richard Ashcroft's song)
One of the biggest songs of the '90s is without a doubt "Bitter Sweet Symphony" by The Verve.
From the opening few bars of strings, it's instantly recognisable and transports you back to the brit-pop heyday.
The Verve weren't newcomers, by the time "Bitter Sweet Symphony" and the accompanying album "Urban Hymns" was released they had been going nearly 10 years, released 2 other albums, and had broken up once already and reformed.
The success of "Bitter Sweet Symphony" should have been their crowning glory, but instead, it leads to one of the biggest injustices in the music business that took over 20 years to resolve and resulted in a bitter sweet victory for the writer.
This is the story of why Mick Jagger and Keith Richards of The Rolling Stones owned 100% of a song they didn't write and how the real writer, Richard Ashcroft, got it back.

[@x2b1800]

This is one of the best explanations of the bitter sweet symphony story I’ve heard !

[@Traxploitation]

Thanks for watching and commenting, glad you liked it. I watched your video where you remade the track, thought it was ironic the only copyright claim was from the sample. I really like the one where you removed the sample! I wish I had seen it when I was making this video. I originally uploaded it a year ago but had to change it a bit.

[@simonjames1604]

except its wrong ,. there are three samples in this song and since they run concurrently the sample lasts closer to 13 seconds. which also adds to the issue. basically the band used too much of another song, without clearing the rights with the right people or working out the details with oldham, they had to pay everyone and basically didnt write the song

[@scottmendoza8989]

Well, it's wrong, the stones did not own the rights to the early stuff. Okay, so when they finally got him back after all the years of fighting to get them back as soon as they got the right back, they then told the band he is your rights back after 22 years, it had nothing to do with mcjagger at Keith Richards. They did not own the rights to the song. It was owned by the manager who took it from them when they were younger. Look it up, that's why Keith Richards and Mick Jagger gave it back to those guys. They did not take it from him. And say we're keeping it and all the money like they needed the money

[@joekelley5121]

ABCO is a concrete example as to why record companies collapsing isn't a bad thing.

[@manuel-xax]

+10

[@ReginaJannie]

Klein made terrible stereotype of self hating Jew and the future signing using only gentile gentlemen and woman instead of ruthless chosen self hating non-gentile schysters.

[@muireann9763]

A 4 second sample - give me a break- when Bittersweet Symphony got televised it was like an electric vault through the atmosphere - perfectly matching the social mileau - a song that was written produced and performed with all the tensions of its time - and Richard sung it with impeccable style passion and anger, cutting across every cliched vibed the stupid radio presenters were spouting - a classic visceral timeless musical brilliance and a moment i will never forget- i remember thinking - so this is what truth to power muscially sounds like Well done Richard, Well done you folks, this has made my day, i'm gonna play it - i still love it to this day-

[@glensgraphix]

When I heard the Verve weren't getting any royalties for Bitter Sweet and Mick Jagger and Keith Richards were I stopped listening to it. If I heard it in the car I'd change the station or turn it off. I made sure I didn't select listening to it on platforms like this and others. Now it has been reversed I listen to it where I can. Very happy to heard the rights have been given back to this awesome song.

[@simonjames1604]

it wasnt reversed. abkco and oldham kept their money.

[@johndd9140]

If Mick and Keef were 30 years younger, I bet they would still hold onto the rights and credits. But they're now in their twighlight years (RIP Charlie), have zillions in the bank yet still play to sold out stadiums, so they want to be seen as the good guys! 🤔 Sorry to be so cynical, but the music business is so dirty... 🤑😵 Great video 👍

[@jaded5957]

Even more despicable when you know that Richards and Jagger acknowledge that they themselves blatantly ripped off The Staple Singers, yet had the greed to take credit and a $hit load of money from The Verve. Still, better late than never. Great video as always.

[@permafrost0979]

Not the Stones, I don't think they even owned the song. Their former manager is the one who made it a huge fight.

[@trendmassacre8423]

It was their manager that sued The Verve, NOT The Stones, watch the video again and pay attention!

[@jaded5957]

@@trendmassacre8423 Try practicing what you preach before mouthing off. I never stated the Stones sued Ashcroft. As of a 1997 settlement with Klein, The Verve gave Jagger and Richards songwriter credits, so they profited very nicely off the song for 20 years before signing over the rights in 2019.

[@williamwilson6499]

As far as the Staple Singers go…didn’t you watch the video?

[@BDHO73]

You didn’t watch before commenting eh? You gotta hate it when that backfires on you Jade D.

[@lilmandan96]

So glad you put this out, I've been racking my brains for all these years, trying to work out what the hell the song had to do with "The Last Time", thank you;

[@ajw9533]

I don't like the Verve or the Stones but I know of Klein as a crook from my reading about the Beatles. I just wanted to say that this is a very well resarched and presented video. Well done.

[@Traxploitation]

Yeah, Klien is the bad guy, but anyone that let's a bad guy get away with it is complicit...so perhaps had Klien not got involved Mick and Keith may never had sued, but once Klein secured the 100% credit they happily cashed the cheques.

[@jackdowser1879]

"It's not about the money...". Of course it's about the bloody money, and Richards and Jagger don't seem as magnanimous about making a deal where they surrender any future rights and earning to Ashcroft--but they keep the money made on the song to date... Very cool song, too...

[@shuddupeyaface]

Didn't they, the stones, in their youth - Rip every poor American black guys shtick. And shamelessly.

[@candelise]

All the time? Like Gimme Shelter or Coming Down Again or Scarlet sound just like?...................

[@mySelf-yx4hw]

knowing ABCO maybe Keith and Mick didn't see any monies either

[@jackdowser1879]

@@mySelf-yx4hw Couldn't be ruled out...

[@ENGBriseB]

Well done Richard Ashcroft because they took the music of the Staple Singers. Congratulations Richard on a billion views.

[@joekelley5121]

It seems to me that the Staples Singers' song This May Be the Last Time was more than an Inspiration, it was a full blown lift from it, regardless whether it was in the public domain or not. Yep, it was about the money. I guarantee Richards and Jagger wouldn't have pursued this if it wasn't a huge hit for The Verve.

[@blondeboywilson9221]

I'm willing to bet a deal with the staples or their rights holders was made long ago. When the stones cover songs they give credit and pay rights holders I've never heard the staples complain contrast that with Harrison and he's so fine...

[@Traxploitation]

Keith Richards was quoted in an interview admitting they claimed authorship of an existing song, "This may be the last time" by way of it being "traditional" which many artists have done over the years, however the more honest ones, don't credit it to their own name. Pete Seeger's band The Weavers often recorded covers of folk songs that were out of copyright and they would credit them as written by "Paul Campbell" to differentiate them from the songs they had actually written from scratch. So actually no, when the stones cover songs they don't always give credit or pay the rightsholders, and they're more than happy for people to think they wrote songs that they didn't.

[@blondeboywilson9221]

@@Traxploitation Thank you ..what other songs in their catalogue fall into this category? And why do you think the Staple singers didn't litigate at the time? They did after all work with a publisher I assume. Much respect to you.

[@Traxploitation]

@@blondeboywilson9221 I think perhaps the Staples Singers didn't register their arrangement as a new composition as the Stones did...and claimed no authorship at all. So wouldn't have "standing" to sue the stones. "Love in Vain" and "Stop Breaking Down" also fall into this category, both Robert Johnson songs that the band thought were public domain so attempted to register them as new works authored by them however a 2000 court case ruled that the songs were 100% written by Robert Johnson and any revenue derived from the composition should be paid to his estate.

[@stetomlinson3146]

I went to see The Stones in Manchester in the tour before last. Richard Ashcroft supported them and played BSS. I can imagine back stage Keith saying to Mick, “ Listen! They’re playing our song!” Mick to Keith “ Kerching!”

[@robertleeluben]

Has to be the most ironically named song of all time.

[@pauliegambino7832]

Allen Klein is the music industry's most successful con man

[@Traxploitation]

I reckon Morris Levy has a shot at that title too 🤔

[@simonjames1604]

that would be david geffen

[@WalterDiamond]

Chas Chandler, Colonel Tom Parker, Stan Polley, Alan Douglas... the end is listless.

[@simonjames1604]

@@WalterDiamond chas chandler isnt the villain in the hendrix story

[@redpilledpict2747]

Morris Levy was likely even worse. "AllMusic described him as "a notorious crook who swindled artists out of their owed royalties." Levy falsely took writing credit in order to receive royalties-enriching himself at the expense of many of his signed artists, especially black R&B artists. The FBI suspected that Levy had used the Roulette Room as a front for Vincent Gigante, allegedly the boss of the Genovese crime family and that Levy had had ties to organized crime for 20 years."

[@12345fowler]

I am glad he got his song back. I never quite understood this whole saga but now I see thhe claim of copyright was clearly abusive. Sad it took so long to settle down.

[@permafrost0979]

Best explanation I've heard so far! Mentions what I heard with my own ears: hearing BSS and Oldham back-to-back, the Verve version sounds like it's just a cover. But paying close attention, it's clear the Verve version adds its own elements to the music itself, not just the lyrics. They sampled very little, then just looped it.

[@K3V_L4W]

I just want to say, the way you describe and relay the facts is brilliant. Thank you

[@Traxploitation]

Thank YOU! 😀

[@jayswartz6446]

Thanks for the thorough and concise explanation that even a Dummy like me can understand. :) I've been a Rolling Stones fan since the early '60's and this was a horrible stain on them in my eyes, but I feel better now realising that none of this injustice would of happened without the greed of Klein inserting himself. I never saw any connection between the Stones and this song. I just do not hear or see it. I definitely see a connection between "The Last Time" and the Pointer Sisters' song though. ;)

[@Traxploitation]

You're welcome. So glad u liked it. 😁

[@jyesucevitz]

I'm a big John Fogerty and original CCR fan. I'd love an up to date vid on John Fogerty's courtroom stories over the music he created also.

[@Traxploitation]

It's coming. Fogartys court room tales are crazy...not many people have been sued by...themselves!!!

[@jyesucevitz]

@@Traxploitation or sued because they sound like themselves. I don't recall Steve Perry being sued for sounding like Journey. ty.

[@simonjames1604]

he also got succesfully sued for stealing from little richard

[@M3au]

The fact that Paul McCartney hated Allen Klein is a massive plus for Sir Paul (in my books).

[@AlexanderStemkowski]

Well, he hated "The Rutles" at first. Taken Linda a while to change his mind. Ironically, it's was Linda's father whom Macca wanted to manage The Beatles, thus automatically disliking Klein. As horrible as Klein actually was.

[@phil90125]

The irony I suppose is that there's another track on the album which you'd think would have triggered legal action - "The Rolling People" which is lift of The Aphrodite's Childs track "The Four Horsemen". Either Vangelis, Demis Roussos and the rest of the band weren't aware of it, or they simply didn't care.

[@Traxploitation]

Great Point! Could be either, I like to think it's that they didn't care. Copyright wasn't meant to limit how much u can be influenced by another work.. It was meant to prevent illegal copies of the actual song being sold 🤷‍♂️ we've gone way beyond that and risk stifling creativity if every similar sounding sound is litigated.

[@Thomasmemoryscentral]

​@@Traxploitationtake alook at Marvin Gaye's estate suing Robin Thicke over blurred lines resembling got to give it up to you and their bogus win crippled the industry more

[@Traxploitation]

I already covered that story at the time, kzbin.info/www/bejne/forKqHSHorhojac I want to point out though. This case wasn't the Gaye Family Vs Pharrell. It was actually Pharrell Vs Bridgeport Music (Bridgeport Music are well-known copyright trolls, and they acquired the publishing rights to Got to Give It Up) The Gaye family didn't sue Pharrell, Pharrell filed for "declaratory relief" he wanted a judge to legally declare "blurred lines" to be a wholly original work, which would prevent anyone from suing him in the future. It's only at this point that the Gaye Family, along with Bridgeport Music counter-sued. The Gaye family are constantly portrayed as money-grubbing when they have initiated exactly 0 court cases. They countersued in this case, and the case against Ed Sheeran was brought on behalf of the co-writer of "Let's Get It On" not Marvin Gaye. Fortunately, the verdict has had no lasting effect on anyone except those directly involved, in fact similar cases such as the Katy Perry "Dark Horse" case, went the other way (eventually, on appeal). Every time there's a high profile copyright case people always say its going to kill the industry. They've literally been saying that since the mid 1800's when copyright laws began to include music....but it never really does. It will take more than one case at state level, in just the USA, to have a lasting effect on the global music industry. The blurred line case went the way it did due to the conduct of Pharrell, Robin Thicke and his lawyers. They constantly made serious mistakes! They never tackled the issue head on, "yes, we made a song that sort of sounds like a marvin gaye song, but not in any way that infringes copyright" instead they tried to argue the songs didnt sound the same at all...which was major error in strategy.

[@MrParis215]

4 seconds bruh....🤦🏾 Let that sink in....

[@simonjames1604]

its a loop so its over 11 seconds and there is a second sample from the recording looped over the first, so they were doomed , you cant use that much of someone elses song and not pay up. thats the rules now and has been for a while

[@alexbowman7582]

Jagger Richards must have been wondering in the mid 60’s why they spent money on an orchestral version. It eventually paid off for them though.

[@Traxploitation]

They didn't spend any money on it. It's not their album. It was Andrew Oldham's.

[@danielmcevoy976]

The violin's make the hook great anyway not the sample parts. Richard makes the song legendary... that voice is chilling and beautiful at once.

[@1rwjwith]

When I heard Bittersweet Symphony and heard about the alleged THE LAST TIME connection my thought was this song, Bittersweet HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LAST TIME. It is obviously a case of sharks like KLEIN. But also Jagger- Richards taking any money from it is wrong….and IF ONLY THEY HAD LEFT OFF THAT STRING SAMPLE ! Richard Ashcroft wrote the song it is in no way plagiarized.

[@mrsatire9475]

plagiarized. Richard Ashcroft didn't write THAT STRING SAMPLE !

[@1rwjwith]

@@mrsatire9475 yeah that is where he made the mistake of using that arrangement…Jagger or Richards certainly didn’t write that either… ABCO and lawyers made the money in the end.

[@TheFakeyCakeMaker]

As an Indie Kid I am so happy to see an artist I love and admire featured here, great explanation of this situation which I didn't actually know had now been resolved so that was wonderful. I would love to hear about more Indie bands, as a black person I have been really interested in somehow telling the story of black British people who are involved in Indie and also looking at a history of BAME involvement in Indie music, we are so readily overlooked in this genre and I find that being a black Indie artist means facing a double prejudice, rejection from white people and rejection from black people too. If David Bowie was black would he have been as popular and legendary as he is now? Would Paul Weller? I feel this is why Sister Rosetta Tharpe has been largely forgotten, she was just too white for black audiences and too black for white audiences too! As for Mick and Keef giving Richard any money ha! Chance would be a fine thing, Mick didn't want to give L'Wren money for her failing business and he was sleeping with her and as for Keef well I think we all know his money's going *sniffs* lol! Great video, keep 'em coming! Love what you do.

[@davidsphere]

I agree with most of what you say. Especially the Indie scene that is rife with subtle prejudíce. But that streches way back to the sixties with the attitude towards Jimmy Hendrix by the established musicians who expressed racist platitudes because theyt felt threatened at the time and it carried on into the punk scene as well, but more by the people looking on than within the scene. During the 70s you felt there was a real musical apathied in the UK which was never really acknowledged, but you could see it in the clubs, the musical divergence of tastes and in the way promoters would "balance" predominately white groups that featured black members. I am a big fan of Sister Rosetta Tharpe, I collect anything from her early 78s on. But you are incorrect about her audience. She had a significant black gospel audience. They were her bread and butter. The blues scene populated by white students in the UK during the sixties loved her, but one gets the uneasy impression this was more due to the fascination of watching the unusual sight of an elderly black woman in furs (bought from the money earned from her black audience) playing an electric guitar. In actuality, Sister Rosetta Tharpe, like many early black pioneers of rock & roll are pigeon-holed into footnotes of musical history because of the audiencl demands from the "music of menace" of that time ...it was easier to peddle a pretty white guy impersonating black menace to a white audience ...than the real thing. Definitions of prettiness were very clear back then and you new who could "stick around" and who they wanted to "get back" I know my explanation would tend to diminish white Rock & Roll to a glorified ministral show, but if thats what it really is, "it is what it is."

[@sparkeyjames]

Music executives are the greatest evil in music production.

[@Cissy2cute]

It's a terrible business. A lot of people don't survive it.

[@lahuk1194]

What a mess over 4 seconds of music. The only fair outcome is either The Verve get their stolen money back, or if the Rolling Stones want their cut, then they too should give a fair cut to the Staple Singers for their own sampling. You have to be fair to all parties, afterall.

[@simonjames1604]

the staples singers had no claim and nothing was sampled, the verve looped this sample to the point where they HAD to give credit to the original writers under law, they were not being magnamous, and the fact that they didnt clear it with the publishers was just stupid and cost them. its a shame but if you are going to use someone elses work make sure you have permission.

[@mothermovementa]

This is the only coherent explanation of the situation I’ve ever heard.

[@RevvS1k]

Thank you for your time and effort, in this regard....

[@Scorhos]

If you could have pictures in dictionaries is certain that aside the explanation of the word bloodsucker a photo of Allan Klein would be pressed.

[@fnjesusfreak]

Allen Klein was a rat bastard. This was almost as messed up of him as when, during a lawsuit against George Harrison over the resemblance of "My Sweet Lord" to "He's So Fine", Allen Klein grabbed the rights to the latter and immediately switched sides in the suit.

[@Phobero]

What a Bitter Sweet Ending

[@wolfheartdarnell324]

Western copyright law is absolutely broken. Despite being a rulings-based country, the Japanese actually have a really awesome provision that allows the artist final say with any of their work, even if specific aspects have the rights held by another party. The idea that an artist can overrule a record company's decision about sampling is something that would do the western music world a lot of favors, since a number of artists will actually give permission readily but the record companies decide otherwise because rights to the master recordings supersede authorship itself.

[@Traxploitation]

That's not unique to Japan. I'm a songwriter, I have over 500 songs published. I get to veto any usage I don't agree with. I've already instructed my publisher to turn down any ad syncs for alcohol or gambling. 🤷‍♂️ The idea that artists don't have control of their music is a fallacy. Often, they've just waived those rights. In Europe some of those rights cannot he waived, transferred or negotiated. America has the worst copyright protections for creators though...and some of those rights don't exist.

[@muireann9763]

Well done - at last, have been talking about this for 20 years, at the time keith or mick didn't open their big fat mouths - disgusting - well researched and well executed - keep up the good work

[@jessbracken8943]

This song is one of the BEST songs ever made, no really. That Klein was a monster and sadly the blueprint for all these monsters like Puffy NOW

[@Traxploitation]

Oh for sure, but Klein wasn't the first of his kind. Those kind of people have been in the industry since the outset. He was just a stage in the evolution...

[@gustaaf1892]

How greedy can you get and how much money do you need or want? Morally bankrupt people who will use loopholes to benefit unfairly.

[@MePeterNicholls]

Yeh they wrote the words. The tune. The violins. The arrangement. But it’s OURS!

[@Traxploitation]

🙄 right!? It was ridiculous.

[@PerfectoKiss]

WTF! They wanted to inject a 4 sec sample? Glad he gets his song back in his name. The irony of the title track is amazing/

[@roeangphotographybali1782]

Really funny coincidence, 2 song with famous sample top the chart; the one is 'ill be missing you', the second one is this song

[@Traxploitation]

Actually more than 2 Will Smith's Men In Black made number one...and is entirely based on a sample of Forget Me Nots by Patrice Rushen. Another Mr Smith, James Todd Smith aka LL Cool J went to number 1 with Ain't Nobody, based on a sample of Chaka Khan's song of the same title. 🤓

[@roeangphotographybali1782]

Yeah, true. I mean, one screen shoot from this video show rhat show became #1 and #2 at the same time

[@MePeterNicholls]

Let’s all put butter sweet on our music streaming players on silent repeat over night

[@Traxploitation]

Nah lol. That just dilutes how much money everyone gets 🤦‍♂️ as there isn't a per stream payment it's prorata as a percentage of all streams. If you like the song, why put it on silent? Just listen to it. 🤷‍♂️😁

[@ganz7ful]

Ashcroft is bang on - its not always about the money.

[@SwingingCreeper]

Allen Klein is the sole instigator for this.

[@paintl3gz]

I think the Keith Richards quote is more in support of The Verve. As in "if they've written a better song than ours, they should keep the royalties" especially if you take the full quote in to account. ABKCO owned this rights to The Rolling Stones songs and were the one's keeping it from The Verve. When Allen Klein died, his son organised for the rights to be handed over to The Verve. Mick Jagger and Keith Richards actually had no say in the matter prior to Klein's death as he was the actual owner of the mechanical rights.

[@Traxploitation]

Richards quote was anything but in support of the Verve. You literally had to change what he said to make it mean that. That's not what he said... That's what you want it to mean. In the same interview he gleefully boasts about using copyright loopholes to claim songs they didn't write. This isn't a one off situation. Also, Klein died in 2009, if he was the only reason they were credited as 100% writers then why did it take more than a decade and for Ashcroft to have to ask...for it to be corrected....and why did they not return past royalties? 😕 Sorry, not buying that version at all. There's nothing to support it whatsoever, and everything suggests the contrary.

[@buster82-bt4vo]

@@Traxploitation I think your way off with what you think happened here. According to Richard Ashcroft all monies the Stones derived from the song were passed to him. This was never anything to do with Jagger and Richard's anyway.

[@flankerroad7414]

Don't see how what Richards said could be construed in any way as supportive of The Verve.

[@joepalooka2145]

The person to blame for this story isn't Mick and Keith, or even Alan Klein--- its the Verve producer and the band itself for not doing their own legal due diligence. They should never have used the Stones sample as it was --- they should have hired an arranger to orchestrate a variation beyond copyright infringement. As a result Richard Ashcroft had to pay Mick and Keith millions of $$. Now he will get some royalties finally for himself, but he made a huge mistake due to his own ignorance.

[@Traxploitation]

Ultimately, yeah. The real mistake, was not clearing the composition for the sample. They only cleared the sound recording. They only realised after it was a hit and by then had a weak bargaining postion.

[@benjaminparkinson5255]

I did not know this was a cover version

[@Traxploitation]

Cos it's not. 🤷‍♂️ A cover version is when the song is performed with the lyrics and topline melody mostly unchanged. Anything else is, at best, an interpolation.

[@ietsdichterbijfer]

Well damn. It really been a Bittersweet Symphony!

[@dirtydropsbeats4727]

Just what I needed thank you

[@TheCosmicFireStar]

I wonder what the legal barriers Issey Cross's BitterSweet Goodbye had to pass sampling the orchestra piece from the Verve's Bitter Sweet Symphony.

[@Traxploitation]

Good question! And not straight forward. The song actually samples Luude's remix of The Verve. Unless a specific derivative license is granted a remix is just an extension of the original track. So, as that track was released in 2022 the writer would be Ashcroft. As Issey Cross' song is based on a sample of that remix its likely she has no song writing credit on her own track... It took me a while to cross check this as it turns out there's over 20 compositions registered with the title "Bittersweet Goodbye". And even more still called "bittersweet goodbyes" But eventually I did find the registration, the Issey Cross song is listed as being entirely composed by Richard Ashcroft. Interestingly though, they (Luude and Issey Cross) haven't yet registered the sound recording, which they will have some ownership of.

[@TheCosmicFireStar]

Thank you for this abundance of Information, thank you for responding 🙂

[@charleshendrix232]

Lennon came to hate him. Listen to Steel and Glass. Its about him. Get your facts straight. Lennon later said “Paul was right about Klein.”

[@Traxploitation]

"get your facts straight" LOL!!! The facts are straight. "Lennon Loved him" thats in the past tense. SMH If Lennon "came to hate him" that doesn't make the fact that at some point in the past "Lennon loved him" any less true!?! The entire point of that section was to show Klein was a polarising figure, equally loved and hated, sometimes as you have pointed out, by the same person at different points in time.

[@charleshendrix232]

@@Traxploitation Well now. Seems you just straightened out your facts. “Lennon loved him” does not inform anyone that he came to hate him. It is obviously past tense, but so is Lennon, so its ambiguous in the extreme. Now we have a clear picture. Before, not so much.

[@Traxploitation]

I glad you now have a clear picture. What I should also explain is, these videos aren't intended to be standalone videos. There's recurring characters. The more videos I make the more the big picture will become clear. Already, there is a video I made about the My Sweet Lord copyright case, that Kleins dodgy dealings also feature in. In that it is explained that Harrison liked him at first and then came to hate him, even writing a song about him too! Called "Beware of ABKCO". There will eventually be an episode on Allen Klein, and then I'll go back to this and other videos that mention him and add cards with links to his full video. That way anyone who is unclear of any details can jump to another video, get some context and jump back in again. That way I don't have to explain who everyone is, in minute detail, every time they are mentioned, and the individual episodes can flow better.

[@mrsatire9475]

This video is just misinformation.

[@jamesburge1983]

Allen Klein, that is all you needed to say.

[@johnnyjohn5440]

Your channel deserves a million plus subscribers.

[@stevens5541]

Why?????

[@billiebobbienorton2556]

I think I deserve millions and millions of dollars just for listening to music by the Stones, Beatles, Verve and others...

[@Traxploitation]

Eh? 🤷‍♂️

[@gurudan5981]

Fascinating.

[@torsch69]

I always thought Jagger & Richards were dicks for this, but I'm glad to know the true story.

[@Traxploitation]

Don't worry, there's plenty other reasons why someone might think they're dicks 🤷‍♂️😆

[@torsch69]

@@Traxploitation LOL - true

[@VenusInFurs2100]

They were & still are, since they never refused that deal and never returned the money they stole with The Verve's song. What they did was vile.

[@retromusings]

Finally can understand what happened with that song. Thanks for the informative video.

[@Traxploitation]

You're welcome 😊

[@darthhideous9084]

Jagger and Richards should be condemned for holding the song hostage for years.

[@Traxploitation]

I know right! Richard Ashcroft is being diplomatic... it wasn't a magnanimous gesture... they just reversed a 20 year injustice... if they want to impress me give back all the money too, plus interest.

[@darthhideous9084]

@@Traxploitation You also touched upon a different subject: the Rolling Stones using music from a Black American act for profit without proper credit (in this case, the Staple Singers' "This May Be the Last Time.") Would there be any way you could dive deep into the subject of the prevalence of English bands in the 60s using Black American music without credit to financially succeed? Another example is Lennon's "Come Together" using lines from Chuck Berry's "You Can't Catch Me." There's been this argument as of late that goes along the lines of, "The Beatles and the Rolling Stones wouldn't have succeeded had they not used Black American music without proper credit," so I'm wondering if you could analyze this argument in another video essay.

[@Traxploitation]

@@darthhideous9084 Its intersting you bring that up. As it on my list of future topics... it's definitely a subject that needs addressing. I like the videos to interlink somewhat so I was going to start with the copyright cases stemming from that...So The Beatles Obla-di-obla-da, and Come Together, The Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin almost the entire catalogue of both bands! The Stones is a slightly more nuanced situation as they kind of stole a bunch of songs but then sold them back to an American audience who then developed a greater appreciation for Black artists in the USA...so I will analyze from both sides...its a big subject though so I will probably do it over a series of videos. So, yeah...coming soon!

[@TheFakeyCakeMaker]

@@Traxploitation You're tooooo good. You are just too brilliant, honestly. I was not only going to bring this us but also make some of the points you have, I cannot wait to see the video when it comes out.

[@rodrollingstone2362]

​@@darthhideous9084 The Stones and Beatles have always paid full credit to the black American blues and soul and rock artists that inspired and influenced them. They even insisted on Howling Wolf appearing on Jack Good's US TV show before they would agree to appear themselves back in 1964. Keith's main inspiration was always Chuck Berry and Jagger revered James Brown, especially for his stage moves. From Otis Redding to Robert Johnson, from Elmore James and Slim Harpo to Muddy Waters, and countless other artists they have acknowledged them, lauded them, played on stage with them and paid their dues to the black folk whom white America had ignored for decades - or blatantly ripped off with white boy copycats like Pat Boone and even Elvis. Songwriting credits to the original artists have always been given on the Stones' records if not in the public domain but in the case of their own songs, like any other artist, there can be an unconscious influence that they are not aware of that sometimes creeps in and this not uncommon for any songwriter. To say that the the Stones would not have succeeded had they not used black American music without proper credit is laughable. Music fans like me, who first attended a Stones gig in 1964, didn't know or care at the time where their songs came from, it was their uniquely wild R and B sound that attracted the youth of the day. Three months after I saw the Stones, I saw Chuck Berry on his UK tour on the same stage and thanks to the Stones I knew who he was and soon became as hooked on his music as they were! I look forward to Traxploitations' future demolition of my thoughts in this matter......

[@JTCurtisMusic]

You missed a really important part of that Keith Richards quote: “I'm out of whack here, this is serious lawyer shit. If the Verve can write a better song, they can keep the money.” He’s basically saying that the Allen Klein situation is not something he wants to get into and (in a blunt sort of way) for The Verve to move on and write a better song that Klein can’t get his hands on.

[@Traxploitation]

Seems like the only part I "missed" is your interpretation. 🤷‍♂️ I don't think he saying anything other that what the words mean. "IF the Verve can write a better song"...(the if implies he thinks they DIDNT write the song) they can keep it...(implying that they don't deserve credit for the song) it's pretty clear what he means. 🤷‍♂️ I know for some fans of their music its hard to accept that they would do something like this...but the facts speak for themselves. For decades they happily collected money for the song...and seemingly only gave it back once its earning potential had reduced. Most songs earn the bulk of their money in the first 10 years. So giving it back after over 20 years is a hollow gesture, especially as they didn't pay any of the royalties back.

[@flankerroad7414]

@@Traxploitation Yes, indeed. A tawdry gesture by M and K, really.

[@rickygallagher1677]

Ashcroft has praised them in interviews though 🤷‍♂️

[@Traxploitation]

@@rickygallagher1677 he was being magnanimous. 🤷‍♂️ 🤦‍♂️

[@OfflineSetup]

It is so annoying that in an educational context extracts (that would last no more than a few seconds) can not be used. Scrub that, the law does allow it. It is so annoying that frivolous copyright claims can be used to stop extracts (that would be no more than a few seconds) be used in an educational video.

[@Traxploitation]

That has been my struggle on this channel. 🤷‍♂️ sometimes even a 3 second clip gets flagged.

[@OfflineSetup]

Even with this, the five videos of yours I have watched today are extremely informative. Thank you. I hope one day the copyright trolls spewing out claims with zero legal basis are banned.

[@war13death]

Jesus did say "The love of money is the root of all evil". This is a perfect example of that.

[@MrAdammace]

It’s hard to believe how complex that scenario is. Klein sounds like one shady character

[@baldieman64]

The actions of Jagger and co killed one of the most promising British bands of a generation. They will never be forgiven.

[@LenQuerido]

Anything with Allen Klein has been very destructive for the music world. Richards has unfairly made certain claims on the song, while he himself admits to having used The Staples Singers' material as an example. Dated more than 30 years ago. Not nice, Keith. You don't need that money. Then on top of that, there's an arrangement by Roger Whittaker that gets no credit at all. Shame! That must take so many years and puts a huge burden on the members of the band, in this case Ashcroft. I hope things like this are resolved more quickly and humanely. If there is someone who wants to make quick money by changing little, then it is simple. Then a claim follows. This one will no doubt be expected.

[@batmandestroys1978]

This one of the greatest channels on KZbin!

[@SugarySerial]

They should have re-released it without the sample as “Bittersweet Symphony (Richard’s Version)” 😂- but seriously this is one of the most tragic and sickening music industry stories of all time. Scummy as fck and I’m so glad Richard got the rights in the end.

[@Doktor_Calamari]

I always thought that the violin melody line was part of the Oldham Orchestra sample, but I've just listened to the song WITHOUT the sample (in another KZbin video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gGS0pYCDe9SMr5o ), and everything that makes "Bittersweet Symphony" a classic is intact. It's unfortunate the sample was ever used, as I'm sure the song still would have been a hit.

[@BeesWaxMinder]

Now you can do the men at work/ land of under story!😉🤞

[@Traxploitation]

Like this? kzbin.info/www/bejne/i4CngGWFatCSb5Y

[@backforblood3421]

The funny thing is I think multiple songs on Richard Ashcroft's solo album from the early 2000s were far better. I listened to that a lot back then, and never even had that The Verve album.

[@ClaimOfRightMuso]

Good-old Stones - now that's what I call music!

[@good.citizen]

thank you one of the hardest things to get is an artist's permission because the entities that are supposed to be able to contact the artist are protecting their entitled blanket licenses.. .

[@Alanoffer]

As soon as you said the name Alan klein it all made sense

[@Traxploitation]

Yeah it's like that with him...as soon as he's involved, you know someone somewhere is getting ripped off. 🤷‍♂️

[@kenlodge3399]

It helps explain why there are so many bad jokes about killing lawyers and the black aura that surrounds the business end of music deals.

[@gemmaazz]

Let's not mention Led Zeppelin and their poaching.

[@Traxploitation]

Lol. Not YET anyway 😏

[@bramleydragon]

Or ac/dc who just steal from themselves. As every album sounds the same.

[@Traxploitation]

LOL, and people love them for it!

[@guidoerfen7944]

To my perception, the slowed down and rhythmically re-assembled verse melody of "The Last Time" one hears in the David Whitaker arrangement equals the vocal melody that Richard Ashcroft is singing in "Bitter Sweet Symphony". Makes me wonder if this really never was subject to the legal debate. But definitely, the credit should go to David Whitaker, whose majestic treatment still impresses today.

[@Scorhos]

How hip hop artists deal with sample copywriting? The older tracks was filled with samples. And I think they never dealt with this buzz that the verve had to deal . They could be greater as Oasis and Klein just flushed their chance with this manuever.

[@Traxploitation]

hip hop artists created a massive "buzz" when sampling became apparent. Much of changes in copyright law and legal precedence were established by hip hop sampling cases. Biz Markie vs Gilbert O'Sullivan in 1991 was the first of many huge cases. 2 Live Crew vs Roy Orbison Vanilla Ice Vs Queen and David Bowie... Mc Hammer Vs Prince. All these cases were very expensive career threatening lawsuits.

[@fasthracing]

The Stones suing someone for plagiarism, you can't make it up.

[@Traxploitation]

IKR lol. But their fans are having trouble accepting it.

[@poiuyt975]

It seems that this Klein guy is just as evil as Saul Zaentz, the manager of Creedence Clearwater Revival.

[@JerzyFeliksKlein]

Bitter Sweet Victory I guess?

[@Traxploitation]

For sure! That was actually the title of the blog I wrote that this is based on 😁

[@jannarkiewicz633]

You should cover The Jam's "Town Called Malice" and "I want you to" by Weezer

[@Traxploitation]

There wasn't actually a court case tho right? Still a good suggestion, I wasn't aware of the Weezer song...I always get them confused with Wheatus anyway🤷‍♂️😆 I guess I could do an espiode on copyright cases waiting to happen? I'd add Bob Marleys Buffalo Soldier and the theme from the Banana Splits 🤔😁

[@jannarkiewicz633]

@@Traxploitation I figured it out years ago and Googling other people are like What the Heck. But you put up the "Land Down Under" having started on a game show. Why not do a short or a quick hit on "Are they the same"? Weezer would have been Jam fans. I figured it might make for an interesting "mystery" video for you. I love both songs. I've seen Weezer three times. Heck, Weezer just charted with cover of "Africa"

[@ElSantoLuchador]

Copyright laws kill creativity. It's not the musicians, it's the lawyers. If they had lawyers sneaking around the delta during the birth of the blues only one blues song would have made it out alive.

[@Traxploitation]

Thanks for watching and taking the time to comment 🙂 I can totally see why you would think that. There's plenty of problems with the current application of copyright yes. But as for it "killing creativity" people have been saying that since 1831 when the US Copyright act was first amended to include musical compositions and since then we've had nearly 200 years of creativity...over 100 million new songs, many more new genres and styles of music.... With only a tiny fraction of those songs having any legal issues Almost all copyright cases happen AFTER the song has been created and released. So it doesn't kill creativity, it just diverts the money away from some creators, which is still bad but hasnt stopped the spng getting made.🤔

[@bodhi_satfa]

This channel is freaking, so, amazing!

[@Traxploitation]

Thanks so much 🙏 glad u like it

[@bernicia-sc2iw]

It should have been co credited to Jagger-Richards-Ashcroft from day one , even though they didn't even write the sample of course , but legally that was the logical compromise . Throw Klein into the mix however and you get a one-sided outcome. The sample makes the song , take it away and it loses so much and just sounds like regular Urban Hymns dreariness.

[@missjoshemmett]

With their money, Jagger and Richards can just throw up their hands and walk away...it would be like suing Fort Knox for a torn dollar bill. After all, if you have a torn bill or most of the bill, the bank will exchange for you, no prob.

[@9Dunk]

You'd think that the stones would have been supportive instead of assholes... but...

[@paraworldblue]

Not really - they have a long history of squeezing every last cent out of every use of their music, and Jagger was a student at the London School of Economics before he was a rockstar. Sure, Klein certainly made matters worse - as he made pretty much everything he touched worse - but the Stones are cutthroat businessmen.

[@robertlivingstone3364]

Brian Jones wrote and played the riff which makes the song, he didn't get any credit either. I believe Allen Klein had him murdered. Klein was supposed to pay Jones 250K in a week, he never got it.

[@Traxploitation]

Well, there's a thread worth tugging at 🤔

[@Gregorovitch144]

I'll bet Kieth Richards' initial reaction on hearing the song was "cheeky bastard" leading to his snarky comment. I'd also bet a pound to a penny that if Ashcroft could have negotiated direct with Richards and Jagger to begin with a reasonable deal would have been agreed from the get go. This was all about one man: Kline. Does the music business really need the likes of Kline? Hmm. Still, it's nice to see matters were settled equitably and by all accounts amicably in the end. Urban Hymns is one hell of a good record.

[@crimsondynamo752]

Richard Ashcroftt and John Fogerty. Two of the most brilliant composers and musicians who were robbed blind by the music industry and their lawyers. Finally some long overdue justice for them both.

[@Traxploitation]

John Fogerty is the most batshit copyright case of all time...and a future episode for sure! How can u get sued for writing a song that sounds like a song you wrote. 🤷‍♂️

[@gogoyubari366]

I still don't see the comparison between the Verve and the Stones.

[@MePeterNicholls]

You can (and I have) slammed Rihanna shine, bright like a diamond and M83 Midnight City together with tempo changes and hit play. And my shine, bright like a diamond and M83 Midnight City together with tempo changes and hit play. And they map nearly perfectly. map nearly perfectly. So, I’m not sure what my point is, but all that you copied me bollocks, it’s just that

[@Traxploitation]

Too right! Copyright was supposed to protect a creators ability to monetize their work not to claim ownership over riffs and melodies 🤦‍♂️

[@johnholkham2420]

Yes if ever a band copied black artists their songs and arrangements it was the Stones.

[@Traxploitation]

Trying telling that to their die hard fans. They won't hear a word of it. 🤷‍♂️ Check some of the comments, some aren't even bothering to watch the video just commenting on the title/thumbnail. Willfully ignorant to the truth 🤦‍♂️

[@BLACK-AUTUMN-MAGICK]

What do *******I******* think????? ..... I think that the the song "Bitter Sweet Symphony" is about A THOUSAND TIMES better than "this will be the last time".... .....And the irony for me personally, is that it's one of my LEAST FAVORITE Verve songs!!! CHEEEEZUS KRYYYST!!!!! Has anyone even listened to "She's a Superstar" ??? The feeling that they capture with the British version of the "Lucky Man" music video with the seagulls flying outside the windows of the flat where they recorded the scene is beyond magic!!!!!

[@LeonTrotsky6782]

Just read rock star autobiography or biogs. Bet, everyone you read, tells of being ripped of by managers, money men, accountants, etc,etc. Creative people, bands & artists are ripe for exploitation from parasites.

[@Traxploitation]

Absolutely! That's why I'll never run out of stories for this channel. I've not only got the artists biographies I've got books on the people that ripped them off too! I've also got my own stories from my 30 odd years in the industry...the idea is to explain how the industry works by telling the tales with some insider insights 😁

[@BaronSemediLive]

💡The Staple Singers are the root of the song and they got nothing.

[@mrsatire9475]

They didn't write the song or the strings

[@user-mo6kf9nq5w]

deep in the jungle...

[@jyesucevitz]

when he heard about being given credit back what kind of moment was it? was it bitt....... oh, I can't do it. normally I love the "low hanging fruit".

[@markrushton5106]

Didnt think the stones got anything from abkco since they sued Klein in the early 70s and lost.

[@Traxploitation]

Even if they didn't get anything from ABKCO, as a publisher they can't control the writers share. That is collected and distributed by performing rights organisations (PROs) like ASCAP or PRS. So they would have still recieved a ton of cash over the years for the composition with or without ABKCO paying what they owe.

[@garyward5668]

Done esome homework here. Great documentation of events. Should be on TV this...

[@Traxploitation]

Thanks 😀 😊

[@josefdulmer4770]

Quite ironically, Ashcroft's whole style and performance was heavily influenced by Jagger himself, at times it seemed like a parody (inculding the drug abuse). I never understood why he couldn't let go of this Jagger-obsession of his. He is a really great singer and songwriter all by himself. After the Northern Soul Album, the band finally disbanded one of the reasons being Ashcroft's jagger-esque drug-fueld ambition to hit big. After that they ceased to be a "band" and continued to be a "Ashcroft-Band". I found it quite unfortunate, 'cause Nick McCabe's equal contribution as a guitarist was great. But ego's are quite stubborn. So in a sense the biggest hit single on the new album (after the forced split) being "owned" by "Jagger/Richards" is a dream becoming a nightmare ;)

[@kevinjoseph517]

The strings were not by andrew? did the musician creator get any money???

[@Traxploitation]

A little but not much...

[@keithferreira3866]

This probably led to the bands break up. Bitter sweet is the opening track to urban hymns, and no other verve albums were released after it. There isn’t a person on this planet who could connect the verve song with the stones song. But the Andrew Oldham version or whatever the hell it’s called is clearly what the verve stole