Logic Pro X - Busses vs. VCAs vs. Groups vs. Track Stacks | What's the difference?

[@newguy6935]

This video is absolutely THE BEST video on KZbin explaining all the different types of routing in Logic Pro X. Apple should hire this guy.

[@SorenAraujo]

Couldn't agree more.

[@MusicFed]

I agree completely

[@MrMatisyahu]

The BEST video ever!!! Thank you so much. I'm honestly near tears here. Thumbs up

[@gautammalhotramd]

Agreed!

[@cloudriftermusic]

I just learned so much

[@alanhayes8051]

One other feature of VCAs is when muted will silence all sends going to other buses that are not under the control of whatever the assigned bus is. I use three VCAs for muting Vocals, Music, Beat, and if they are sharing FX sends such as Reverb or Delay, just muting the bus you will still hear the FX sends, whereas muting a VCA will totally silence everything assigned to the VCA.

[@tobiaskagstrom]

Exactly! And if you solo a BUS (let's say the BUS sums 8 drum tracks) you can't hear the individual sends (say you send just the snare to a plate reverb for example). The sound with the BUS soloed will be bone dry (well, if you've put reverbs as inserts on a ch it will be heard). BUT if the drum tracks are in the same VCA group and you solo that VCA you get to hear all individual sends. AND this is where I think Logic's "in between" solution is both genius and confusing is that if you create a track stack (summing stack!) it passes audio as a BUS...AND...the solo funkction will act like if it was a VCA... got me?

[@DavidDiMuzio]

So nice to finally understand this stuff. Thank you!

[@ttrystt9413]

I wish every video explaining things in Logic was like this one. 10/10 concise, easy to listen to and understand. No wasted time talking about unrelated BS or reiterating things that have already been stated. Thank you

[@cassionmoura]

Being a teacher myself, I can make this statement: You Are an amazing teacher! Thank you so much for let us learn so much from you!

[@jeffmarc1846]

All that agree, please let me & MTHG kno: I think all of MTHG’s vids are best in class, and there is a lot of great posters out there! He’s certainly the Beatles of explaining Logic. Its an art form he’s mastered. It’s him, I bold underscored line, everyone else follows. Thank you, so very much, for all you do, and don’t let Yoko be a disruption:)

[@EmbersAu]

This explanation is amazing. Definitely keeping up to date with your vids. Thank you for the detail you have gone to in this one.

[@bangpow00]

Ah! In Logic Pro X, a folder track is a VCA, and a Summing Stack is a buss. That clicked my bulb. Thank you!

[@wadball]

The phrase, "clicked my bulb" really clicked _my_ bulb if ya know whada mean

[@TynaKeelan]

Ahhh Yess -- well spotted my friend :D

[@jakenelson3350]

Absolutely, no doubt, the best video i’ve seen on this topic. I have literally never understood it fully in five years

[@rodrigolaporte274]

I didn't know all the details of these. Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!! I'll start using them accordingly from now on. SUPER USEFUL

[@feedbackbro]

Superb!! Thanks so much for this. One other thing that is handy with VCA’s is using them to control the overall mix volume for tracks that have volume automation. So much better than editing the automation parameters.

[@NevBe100]

Thank you Sean for making that so much easier to understand. It has baffled me for quite some time. Now I have a much better understanding, thanks to you. :)

[@TMTSYSTEMSATL]

Thank You. I've been an audio engineer for 15 years and you just taught me something new ! :D

[@Furox]

That was the best, most concise and straightforward explanation of this topic that I've ever seen. Way better than what's in the Logic manual. Thanks!

[@johnhall2009]

That was AWESOME!!! Thank you brother. You are helping to lift the veil of ignorance and unfounded fear of recording one video at a time. May you live to see the marriages of your children’s,children’s children! ✌️

[@JoeDillingham]

This is the best explanation I've seen. Nice to have you back making videos.

[@MarkusSommerOfficial]

Amazingly helpful explanation! On point, no blah, just sound information! Having a memory like a sieve, I came here two or three times already. Thank you!

[@13adLucEnt]

Spectacular video...The new stacks update in logic threw me off a bit but now I have no questions left, thank you

[@PrateekGuptaOfficial]

Weird compliment but yeah, Your voice is the most pleasing to ears compared to any of the tutors I've heard over youtube! I can listen to your voice and watch tutorials for hours and not get irritated lol

[@TheVisitor247]

Nice video, thanks. Another important aspect about Busses and VCAs is that if you have Sends on single tracks within a Bus-Group and you change the Volume of the Bus, then Sends will not be affected. So if you have a Reverb on the Sends and lower the Volume of the Bus, the Reverb will be louder in comparison the Bus Mix (if the Reverb Track is not part of the Bus). If you use a VCA that will not happen.

[@viraj4ever]

Ohh damn that's correctttt, because the bus is just passing on the signal after adjusting the volume, and has nothing to do with the fader or sends of the individual track, but a vca is a controller of the relative levels of all individual tracks under it... That's good stuff man.

[@KatherX]

Best explanation/demonstration on this topic I've seen thus far. MTHG videos on Logic Pro X are the best. Thank you for everything!

[@rahulnero2813]

Really cleared a lot of doubts of routing in Logic Pro X. Thanks for making this video.

[@photonomist6345]

Your videos are absolutely the best in terms of clarity and I always use them as my first (and often) only port of call when I want to learn a new feature in Logic Pro. I always recommend them to my high school students too, and invariably they agree with me. Many thanks for the excellent service you provide!!

[@dzogten]

well done. i like your way of explaining this stuff. in particular your "in terms of signal flow, there is no difference between X and Y"

[@jeremiahfingsheets]

Good video. I come from those large format analog console days. I miss them sometimes! A couple of additional notes for this: Adjusting levels as "groups" vs VCAs becomes very different when you start using automation. You can adjust the individual channel levels with the VCA without worrying about your automation being affected. Also, with Aux Busses vs VCAs, if you have post-fade sends on your individual channels for effects (or any other output routing), bringing down the VCA will also bring down the send just the same as if you were to bring the channel fader down. Whereas if you just bring down the Aux Bus channel they are routed to, those aux sends will still continue to send. Could be a cool effect I suppose, but if I want that effect I'll set that individual send to pre-fade instead so it isn't all or nothing. For my workflow with large track counts I never use the Summing stack, always the Folder stack. This way I can preserve all of that routing in my tracks and just manually send individual tracks to separate output busses. Maybe all the drums go on one, or maybe I'll group kicks and snares out to a bus and route that bus out to a drum bus or parallel bus. Keeps things very clean while still allowing total control. It's almost necessary in my setup as I have multiple preset busses, one full of different compressors, another one with different EQs, another one with helpers, then another with reverbs, etc. But that's a whole different conversation. ;)

[@skillzmcgavern]

This video answered a few questions I've had about controlling volumes of groups of tracks easily, without summing them. I've been trying to set that up easily so that I can quickly bring a single mix element/track a few dB above the rest of the mix to hear it in context, but a little more clearly, for adjustment. Now that'll be extremely quick and simple to toggle! Thanks for all your videos - they've helped me get to the music faster.

[@magick1969]

The difference between a group and a VCA is a visual flow that shows the relative changes not visible in the VCA. I'll take the added complexity of Shift-G/Shift-G to get those output control for each member of the group relative to their levels.

[@dekemartin]

Very helpful, thanks. I used sub-groups all the time on an analogue desk 30 years ago, but have struggled to find out how to do it effectively in LPX.

[@pachesmusic2892]

You don’t stop to make our lives easier! Thanks so much. Do you have a video on how to screencast with the pc’s audio like you do?

[@moneyormonkeys]

Came here to find out the best way to buss tracks and ending up learning about VCAs too. Thanks!!

[@hammincheese1310]

It sounds like VCAs are essentially a (invisible) gain plugin placed at the end of the plugin chain (right before the fader) for every channel in the VCA. The individual gains are not accessible themselves, rather the VCA fader sets/controls them all in parallel. So the gain setting for every individual channel is always the same for a given fader position.

[@MusicTechHelpGuy]

You could think of it that way, for sure. On analog consoles VCAs are voltage control sources, so they feed a variable voltage to the channels within the VCA to control their group volume - they also do a great job of maintaining the relative volume between tracks. On Analog consoles, "Groups" as we see them in DAWs do not exist, so VCAs were the solution that was created, prior to DAWs. Some would argue that VCAs within DAWs are pointless because of DAW channel groups. They effectively do the same thing, but there are some situations where I find VCAs more useful. Especially since you can easily change the volume of an individual channel without having to disable the group.

[@revolution9oh9]

Literally invaluable to a new Logic user in 2020; thanks Josh! 🙏🏻

[@Fallagainstfatejake]

Thanks, I definitely feel I understand VCAs and groups more now. Giving logics convenience with summing stacks I don't really feel the need for groups and VCAs but I know that when it comes time to work on a desk it will be valuable to know. Thanks!

[@jamiedavies1305]

My day 1 on Logic and this was one of the first videos I found, so glad I did!!

[@proverbalizer]

but I think (not sure, I'm just learning about summing stacks) another difference is that you can click on them in the main window and use your midi keyboard to play/record a multilayered instrument, so the signal routing may be the same as a bus group, but it seems you have some extra functionality. Or I guess you could also split / move / mute parts of the summed stack...

[@markgoslett6334]

Thanks Josh! I had been struggling with this over the last month or so. All clear now. I oh you a career!

[@cagdasozdemir4753]

Oh my god, did I start to solve the most difficult mathematics in the world and even create art using it 😳 I am grateful to you brother🙏

[@billyfolchi]

Very helpful!! Thank you! I love the idea at the end of using bus grouping in combo with VCA subsets of the bussed tracks. Very thorough, clear and quick instructional vid!! Great work!!

[@spiderlab2526]

Back in the day VCAs allowed two or four hands to mix multiple tracks (as submixes) since it was mixed live to tape. A 32 channel desk often had 8 VCAs for example.

[@jefftravilla]

I never knew what the groups feature did. This explanation was great. Lately I’ve been processing my sub-groups on a bus, but leaving it at unity volume and sending those same tracks to a VCA for volume adjustment. I’ve found this helps me not have to fuss around as much with my effects sends on the individual tracks cause doing group volume on the bus messes with dry/wet of post-fader/pan effects on the individual tracks sends. If I have to automate a group, it definitely gets automated on the VCA so those sends maintain their relative levels. I wish you could create a VCA of a VCA cause I like having static “final” faders. If I have to automate a VCA, I’ll do the static adjustment on bus, keeping in mind I’ll have to be aware of my effects’ wetness. Ultimately I like to get my mix grouped down to like 5ish non-automated group faders so that I can tweak the balance of the instrument groups without dealing with the automation curves. I like to close my eyes and set the levels on my control surface so that I’m not getting influenced by the meters or other visual cues.

[@kenwiltshire7834]

Outstanding, you deserve a standing ovation. Thanks sooooooo Much

[@miguelash886]

Guys like this make youtube a better place

[@fonzybrookestone727]

A lot of stuff sounds like Chinese to me, but your videos are very helpful!!!! I'm definitely learning/understanding because of them. Keep up the good work.

[@markgoslett6334]

It's actually Cantonese, but surround yourself with the language and it will start to make sense! Joshua is a really good guy to follow and learn from

[@BPMusic06]

Thanks for clearing up a concept that had clouded my mind for so long! You’re videos are great.

[@MrDonaldgooch2000]

Man, you are just the best. I am so freaking grateful for you and your work

[@000aleph]

Your explanations couldn't be clearer. Thanks for all your great work.

[@memeboosted3807]

Best video in logic I’ve seen. Really helped me understand the daw to the next level, which I needed. Thank you

[@dkkrecords]

dug it ...i think @12:52 the real strength of VCA as opposed to buss is highlighted and at the same time...while i'm new to logic..and enjoying the ride....(mostly use ableton and cubase). but that recently i've started using harrison mix bus 32c,,,,the vca track that controls assigned tracks...when it moves so do the faders in the assigned tracks......as you saw and talked about in studio 1......i'd say logic are just behind the game here...and it would be a handy adjustment to have that visual reinforcement of the faders moving in response to the VCA controller......enjoyed the tutorial all the way....

[@alexandrealexandrov6967]

The best way to explain the topic. Thank you Tech Guy!

[@adammillsmusic]

Great video, never really saw the need to use the separate VCAs but great example with the close vs cymbal mics!

[@faededreality]

thanks for every video!!! we are releasing our album soon and we recorded it ourselves and i learned logic from your tutorials... so a huge thanks goes to you!! 🤩

[@CraigAddy]

Thanks. I'm relatively new to this and have found these issues you have addressed mysterious and confusing. This is great.

[@BeastlyAnteater]

How do you say HEY EVERYONE the same exact way every single time

[@nandoque]

sampling it

[@BeastlyAnteater]

Nvndo lol I don’t think he’s sampling it, I thought about that tho

[@TheSonnylily]

You Da Man! Such a valuable lesson that saves me time to learn thru books or class about this thing in Logic pro, thanks again and cheers!

[@joeypereira1592]

Hey Josh I miss the analog days sometimes...great tip for those using DAW's and the younger generation....Joe from Staten Island

[@mikeolson7588]

Nice job as always. This really helps to put these features into a context. Thanks.

[@TorbenFugger]

Thanks for explaining all these different paths in such a level of detail. This is extremely helpful.

[@NoCoverCharge]

I’m new to MacBook and logic all on the same day been a week now this really helps

[@d_lydian]

This is video absolutely staggering, very well explained and you have a very good sense to repeat things at the right time.

[@guitarcookbook]

Thanks a ton ! cheers from France !

[@graffic-applications]

Seriously dude, awesome content here. Subscribing because you helped me understand what I consider to be a CORE concept of mixing. Much love, keep up the great work.

[@AndreHansen96]

This is so useful. I knew all of it except the VCA stuff so thank you for clearing it up for me. Now I feel like I have complete control of the mixer :)

[@cleverdood]

Great video, I learned these differences the hard way! I use summing stacks for more or less everything to group drums, vocals and guitars and put different effect plugins on busses so I can use them anywhere.

[@71Corvette454]

As everybody else is saying - you explained this sooo well! Thanks a lot, man!

[@Robert-kx8mp]

Nice videos, but FOLDING and SUMMING stacks have an awful bug where control surface mappings on a track's smart controls stop working if you put a track inside one of them. I appreciate your explanation about how they are really no different than Aux busses and VCAs. So on my big template, I've gone ahead and flattened all the stacks and replaced them with regular Aux/VCAs for any tracks that benefit from smart controls, which is most of the template really. In order to preserve some of the organization, I've inserted No Output tracks using the track name as a sudo header. I'm not optimistic this bug will ever be fixed, seems like if it could be fixed easily it would have been fixed already.

[@LesSand75]

I always found VCAs a bit silly in a DAW until it dawned on to use it when recording vocal tracks. This way, I can easily bring the volume down of all instruments but the vocal tracks without touching the mix or the automation. Logic Pro is truly a beast.

[@o.b.v.i.u.s]

Thanks, MTHG! Much appreciated...

[@seanrichards9569]

One item that I discovered after watching this and trying to do some track organization which might be important to clarify as a unique (and possibly problematic) to Logic workflow: some virtual drum instruments are created as a Summing Stack already, which isn't entirely clear to everyone, which can't then be added to another overall Summing Stack for organization or processing. I presume this would also apply generally but I haven't tested: you cannot do Summing Stacks that contain other Summing Stacks? eg. might be Summing stacks of strings, brass and woodwinds, then all into a single Summing stack for final processing AND channel organization. I certainly understand that all of this can be Bussed the same way from a signal point of view, but the folder collapsing aspect becomes moot. Anyway, the reason I bring up the drum example is that some drum instruments DO this (kits) and some DON'T (drum machines), which I don't think is entirely obvious. If I write parts into a kit it pretty much stays collapsed and the Summing side of it was generated by Logic itself. Just thought I'd mention it, as it seems like the only caveat that your video doesn't really address and could easily throw off a new Logic user.

[@MusicTechHelpGuy]

You're absolutely right. Drum Machine Designer kits are essentially track stacks. DMD is not so much an instrument of it's own... rather, it functions like a container for other instruments, organized into a summing stack. Each channel in a DMD track stack is Ultrabeat in version 10.4 and earlier, or Quick Sampler or Drum Synth in version 10.5 or higher (and side-note, you can load 3rd party drum instruments into it as well). IMO it's a pretty niche thing though, because DMD kits are already track stacks, they're already organized. Unless I need to combine the processing of two or more kits -- then I would just take the output of the summing stacks and route that over to an Aux Track and process them as a group. But yes, you cannot create track stacks within track stacks. However, you can include Aux Tracks within track stacks. So for example if you wanted to process 3 simultaneous kicks, you could buss them to an Aux, process them there, then include the Aux in the Summing stack.

[@seanrichards9569]

MusicTechHelpGuy thanks for the clarification. I’m certainly happy to use bus routing as a way to control stems, and have been doing it since PT was originally released. Watching the video I was initially excited to bypass using them with something that does the same but collapses to keep track stems easier to see when you get closer to the end of the mixing phase. Lots of ways to do this, and I guess that’s what the Folder version of this Stacks feature is for; esp when you are trying to organize combined sets of tracks and Summing Stacks into one ‘stem’. I was just looking to save one more step and do it all with Summing Stacks, but nope! LOL Definitely a useful caveat to add to your videos though, since this seems the most obvious benefit (maybe the only one) of using Folder Stacks. As a side note, I’ve been using at least one instance of DWD in most of the at-home productions I work on, mostly because as sampled kits they sound typically great while having internal mixing flexibility I’m used to as a long time analog recording engineer. Either way, excellent video, keep up the good work!

[@Ariel-sz6xz]

Fantastic video, such a clear and precise description/contrast

[@calebcampbell5951]

Thank you, this is the only tutorial that actually helped me understand what buses do.

[@stevebass8352]

Fantastic - very well presented. Even I understand the difference between Busses, VCAs and Groups now. ( and track stacks ). Thanks very much.

Thanks so much. Ideal balance between speed of explanation and completeness!

[@Adam.Robert]

My primary use for Groups is phase locking live multitracked drums before quantizing.

[@caseykittel]

NO. busses are better! just kidding. love your videos so much. thanks! I bought a big analog mixer last year with VCAs. now I get them. I just couldn't under stand what they were doing. I was like... um, yeah volume controls for groups, but what else? now I get it though. the studio one demo kinda tells shows what's going on signal wise. thanks again.

[@massivebeatzz]

Excellent excellent tutorial - nicely said - spoken clearly, and well structured!

[@johnfkiii]

Great video-never really understood what VCA and groups did before-you explained these concepts very clearly

[@svenikea8428]

Just found you and am so glad! Clear, concise and above all, intelligent. Thenks a million (from France).

[@KaneLono]

watched this one about a dozen times and I think I've almost got it!😃👍

[@tonyadams6985]

Well explained! Refreshing to have someone that gets to the point.

[@anmolchandratre9724]

Best video on KZbin! Please make more of these type of doubt clearing videos of logic pro X!

[@ryansmith3111]

Great videos, is there a way to do parallel compression with logic? Or essentially, is there a way to have the bus sends make a duplicate of a track like in pro tools? I can set a send up post pan/fader, and then copy the fader to the send... that gives me something pretty close, but you're limited into how much louder you can push the send with the fader based on whatever setting you initially had it at when you copied it. It'll give you a little extra, but not much. So, to simplify my question, Is there a way to have the fader completely control the level of the send so it is an identical duplicate of the track instead of just copying the levels to the fader and being limited to whatever those levels were? Because if you had to go back and adjust things later, the relative volume could be off on quieter tracks in the parallel compression unless you go back and re-copy the fader to the send all over, which, is doable, but kind of a pain. They finally got independent pans for cue mixes... hoping there's a setting somewhere I'm missing.

[@bydrewelliott]

Incredible. Thank you for this, I can't wait to dive into your other videos. Subscribed!

[@rishabhbose29]

Great explanation. Especially regarding the VCA

[@jrpjazz]

This was very informative. I'm loving the summing track stacks!

[@raularaujostrw]

This is perfect, Ungodly amounts of thanks to you, Sir! ✨

[@ivannikolaev2293]

The most interesting thing is how to properly route say a snare drum, that is already affected by a compressor on a drum group, to a reverb? If I lower the volume on a drum group after that, then it changes the wet/dry balance for the reverb. If I lower the volume on a drum vca, then it changes the level that goes into a drum bus compressor. For now what I do is I don't use VCAs and I keep effects like snare reverbs inside the drum group (instead of having just one reverb, that goes straight into the master), so that I can have an overall control for drum level in the mix. Are there any better workflows?

[@MusicTechHelpGuy]

I do the same, I keep my snare reverb channel within the drum group. So it is affected by volume changes of the VCA, group, or summing stack.

[@ryan.m.weisgerber]

This was faaaaaantastic. Thank you for putting this together!

[@danielpicard3994]

Thank you for the clear and precise explanations you provide.

[@jasonxoc]

You didn’t address one of the most important things about VCA’s vs Busses… How sends work when you mute / solo the VCA. If you want to solo a bus, it wont have the send effects. However, if you use a VCA, it will solo the VCA WITH the sends. So if you only use busses and have a parallel crushed 1176 type compressor and use sends to adjust how much of each signal gets pushed to that compressor and solo the bus, you’re not hearing that parallel compression. That’s why I use VCA’s anyway, so I don’t have to solo / mute a bunch of crap every time I want to hear drums soloed with effects. I prefer sends for parallel compression and effects rather than inserts.

[@jaysauerbass]

Excellent vid, I knew some of this stuff but hadn’t heard it all explained so concisely. I need to utilize more of these tricks to streamline my workflow.

[@jonycruz2430]

Amazing teaching, Seriously!!! would love a video on the last stuff you said, multiple outputs and the master fader. Would love to see an application on multiple outputs and why you would do them and how it looks like. It has always confused me. You are awesome. Im a fan forever!

[@miditata]

Thank you so much for all your videos. They are much appreciated. Great job!

[@craigaycock505]

Great Video MTHG!!

[@willayknockn96]

just uncheck the volume for groups because it really helps for editing workflow cuts a lot of time

[@Mikaflyd]

Could you or do you have a video on using buses and panning reverb delay on acoustic guitar to make it sound bigger and fuller.

[@DrJoshGuitar]

Great video! A weird thing happens in Logic when I try to create a summing stack. When I create the track stack it names the stack "Mix" and uses my Mix bus as the bus for the track stack (I have all tracks in my projects routed to a main bus called "Mix", which I also have as a track so I can apply effects and automation, which then goes to Stereo Output). Any idea why it is doing that? The only way I can create the track stack to work correctly without "stealing" my Mix bus track is to change the output on all my desired tracks to Stereo Output, then make the stack, then route the Track Stack to the Mix bus.

[@NikroozHosseini]

Docmansound Music same here, summing stack seems to take precedence on bus assignment regardless of what is currently in use, whichnis why I’m not using them, as I mix on my own template with all my routings in place. I think I have seen a option somewhere that sets which bus number would Logic start from when auto-assigning, perhaps it works for stack bus assignment too?

[@Alex-zp9qj]

As always clear, concise and very helpful explanations. Please keep up the truly great work. Many thanks

[@lonelyseaproductions2337]

I'm trying to bus multiple track stacks together in Logic in order to compress them all at once.... ie. hi, low, & mid Strings track stacks in an orchestral piece to one bus compressor, hi, mid, & low Brass track stacks to another. The issue I'm having is when I bus those signals to an aux it seems to add a bunch of volume to the overall sound. Is there a better way to do what I'm trying to accomplish here. Thank you in advance for any helpful hints.

[@steveweilhart2359]

Josh your awesome - I have learned so much in a short time from you. I actually feel like I am becoming an audio engineer . I am a drummer , guitarist , composer and my recording's are sounding very good.

[@milkyway8353]

Great explanation, trying to learn logic pro for ipad, and this one came very handy, thank you