My 1952 Topps Willie Mays and why the pop doesn’t jive with the crazy Topps Hudson River dump story

[@badgerjeff6081]

Very interesting Detective Jacket. Thanks for sharing your Mays. I could stare at it all day. It’s simply A-Mays-ing!

[@Bluejacket66]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@DoubleDvintagebaseballcards]

Dave thats an incredible example of the 52’ Topps Mays. This is the exact way I want all my vintage cards to look. Centering and Image is spectacular 🤯🤯🍒🍒 . Awesome video and that flexichrome is so cool. Give me those hairline wrinkles all day everyday. Congrats Dave just awesome. One day I would like to own one that looks just like it 😊. Thank you for sharing 🤙🤙

[@Bluejacket66]

Thanks !!! Dylan Dive into that flexichrome process, it’s pretty intersting I think

[@shelbybraman1]

Beautiful card! I always look forward to your videos.

[@Bluejacket66]

Thanks Shelby, very kind of you

[@BaseballTimeTraveler]

Nice presentation and analysis, Dave. Your '52 Mays is a stunner! Wow! Thanks for sharing your card and your knowledge. Well done.

[@Bluejacket66]

Thank you for the comment

[@phillipkabour7305]

I like your honest opinions and angle on things

[@Bluejacket66]

Thanks Phillip

[@ClementeCollector]

Great video Dave, and beautiful Mays card!

[@Bluejacket66]

Happy Thanksgiving Theo!

[@ClementeCollector]

@@Bluejacket66 you too Dave!

[@christophertarr9005]

Very nice and cool story. It’s so well centered that I’d consider a simple repair on that crease. Well worth the fix from an expert paper conservator.

[@Bluejacket66]

I’d hate to risk that….

[@jonssportscards6052]

Beautiful!

[@jasonjanega3537]

Beautiful 52 Mays Dave! Thanks for sharing.

[@Bluejacket66]

Hey thanks J

[@justdkh]

Stunning card!

[@Bluejacket66]

Thank you!

[@returntocollecting]

Beautiful Mays Dave! It looks like an 8. Great card. Thanks for sharing!

[@Bluejacket66]

Thank you!

[@ZiggyNo]

Very interesting thoughts Thx for sharing

[@Bluejacket66]

Thx ziggy

[@daveo_cardfarmer2078]

Dave, beautiful Mays card.. Love it!!

[@Bluejacket66]

👍

[@markcastanza7918]

Great video Dave; would love to see an investigative video on the ‘52 high numbers and their alleged dumping into the ocean ( New York bay as per legend); that ‘52 Mays is stunning! the spectacular centering creates off the charts eye appeal; thanks for sharing; be well and stay safe

[@Bluejacket66]

Hi Mark. Have a happy Thanksgiving

[@mikewrobel2881]

Flexichrome, very interesting! Thanks for sharing!

[@Bluejacket66]

If you search you can find some cool articles where people did it themselves with great results

[@SplendidSports]

Stunner indeed Dave 😮 Thanks for sharing that beauty. And you make a hell of a point 🤷‍♂️

[@Bluejacket66]

Hi Adam

[@stuke1976]

Great looking Mays! I just found a 1967 Topps Test Disc of Mays for Mayor on Ebay. I was reading about the 1952 distribution on Net54 today. Great read, if you haven't read it. Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980) > Info on print runs for 1952 Topps? Links to George Vrechek and Bob Lemke articles and a poster on the thread estimates the Topps production. They mention 17-18 for most cards and double for the 3 double-prints if I read the article correctly. George helped me with my 1947-66 Exhibit checklist.

[@Bluejacket66]

You may be right on 17 number. I read that thread in the past. Thanks for the post Stuke!. If it’s actually 34 on the dps that would make the number huge in the River dump. Beyond believable. I’ll look back at that thread sometime

[@ACollectorsDream]

Dave, that 1952 Mays is gorgeous, probably the best centered copy I’ve seen. Great colors. I’ve always heard that story, but really would love to see proof of the dumping. That picture pack Mantle is awesome. Thanks for sharing

[@Bluejacket66]

There is video of Berger describing it… I don’t buy it but there may be a sliver of truth in it. ??

[@vintagesanctuary]

Dave, WOW, what an amazing 1952 Topps Willie Mays! Who doesn't love amazing centering and surface accompanied by a trivial micro-wrinkle! 🤯🤯🤯 Loved hearing your teaser thoughts and looking forward to your future video regarding the alleged dumping of 1952 Topps 6th series cases!

[@Bluejacket66]

Thanks… we’ll see what I can come up with

[@jeffcornette1919]

Love it. Dude, you have some SWEET cards. Thanks for sharing. My PSA 4 MAYS isnt that clean.

[@Bluejacket66]

Thank Jeff!!

[@bowman53]

That ocean dump story has always seemed like a quick throwaway anecdote thats fun and mythic but I love this dose of reality and look forward to the in-depth version.

[@Bluejacket66]

I think it’s only based on a little fact if any

[@alanmighton4944]

That's the nicest "3" I've seen... Quite possibly the nicest 52 May's I've seen. Definitely a Stunner. One of my favorite cards in the hobby for sure. Interesting take on the Mantle theory.

[@Bluejacket66]

He could look happier 😅

[@bestinbbcards7974]

Beautiful Mays card.

[@Bluejacket66]

Thank for watching!

[@scottspaulding2158]

That Mays looks way better then the grade. The story kills me just thinking of the idea of cards being dumped in the water like that. Thanks for sharing and I hope you have a great Thanksgiving

[@Bluejacket66]

You too Scott- thank you

[@NYYanksFan7]

It seems you REALLY wanted that card!! Well done!

[@Bluejacket66]

👍

[@4softcorners728]

Beautiful example! Sound logic on the 52 Topps “mystery”

[@Bluejacket66]

Maybe…🤷‍♂️

[@psychdonbaseballcards5137]

Beautiful Mays Dave. Like your math.

[@Bluejacket66]

Hi Tony… have a Happy Thanksgiving

[@psychdonbaseballcards5137]

Thanks Dave and back at you. 🦃🍗@@Bluejacket66

[@jackiechapman8189]

That's an outstanding example Dave..😍😮 Love the colors and centering on your beautiful Mays..🎉😊 Hope you and Kayden are well..❤ Happy Thanksgiving guys.. Take care..👍💕🔥👊

[@Bluejacket66]

Happy Thanksgiving Jackie!!

[@PickerJimS]

Oh man I’ve always loved the 52 Mays and you got yourself a beauty right there Dave! I never bought that story of the 52 Topps being dumped into the Hudson. Bits and pieces would have surfaced here and there and as far as I know there was never any trace of them.

[@Bluejacket66]

Folklore?

[@sheblindedmewithrefractors8795]

What a great looking Mays you have in your collection. I have to agree with you Dave as the numbers just don't add up. It's just one of those fun stories that people want to be true regardless of whether or not it really happened.

[@Bluejacket66]

I have a fantastic ghost story that happened to me in 1985. Ive told it so many times that now I wonder if it actually happened as I tell it, or if I’ve embellished it thru the years..

[@rayfromphilly6969]

dave this is a gorgeous willie mays card. happy thanksgiving.

[@Bluejacket66]

Happy Thanksgiving Ray!!

[@vintageslabman]

Great episode. Thanks for sharing your insight. How do you think the pop reports have been inflated for various high profile cards like the Mantle and Mays based on the trend of many people cracking cards out and trying to resubmitting raw to get a grade bump? It would seem to me like the pop counts either way are quite a bit higher than what the true graded count would be. Cheers.

[@Bluejacket66]

I think pop counts are generally helpful but nowhere near precise. I would doubt of some were over inflated by 15-20%🤷‍♂️

[@RatedRookie]

In Dave I trust. Excellent breakdown and I originally thought your 52 Mays was a PSA 7 before seeing the label

[@Bluejacket66]

Thanks Josh!!😀

[@ChuckNorthSideGuy]

You have a very special example of the 1952 Topps Willie Mays, no question about that. Centering is just stunning, as is the registration. Sorry about the micro crease. Bummer technically, but from a collectors standpoint, you have a card that gives all the joy of ownership. Great eye! I like the provocative questions you raise about pop count. Fun to think about for sure. That story is undoubtedly regarded, uncritically, as "truth". It should be challenged, assessed anew, as you have done here. Good stuff.

[@Bluejacket66]

Hi Chuck! Have a great thanksgiving !

[@dk_kardboard]

I’d say “where are all the fish trying to get their Mantles graded”. Some supporting evidence. Beautiful Mays!!!

[@Bluejacket66]

Thank you!

[@bwoods43]

Many of these cards were just thrown away, so the numbers will always be relatively small. I couldn't find anything definitive on print runs, but the estimates I found on Net54 seem to range between 300-500k per double-printed card. If the number of cards dumped were accurate, it would make up around 2-3 percent of the total cards printed. So essentially out of those 6,800 Mantles that are "missing" around 150-200 would have survived. And this doesn't even consider that Mantle was a much more popular player originally.

[@Bluejacket66]

I think I’ve read that at some point .but if they printed 500000 mantle… that’s about 30,000 cases printed for the 6 series. So 300 cases left over ( 1%) was considered an epic overrun?? Nah, doesn’t make sense. I don’t know how many mantles are I graded. But let’s say 4000 graded and 6000 ungraded. Yes that 2% survival rate. I’ll address that

[@doug_sports_collector]

What a beautiful Mays.

[@Bluejacket66]

Thank you

[@CardCutter23]

I knew 1 second into the video, when I seen the mini black box, that this video was going to be a heater. Great video Dave. Tell Caden hello from me. I'd love to hear from him about any Pokémon cards he's picked up since the NSCC.

[@Bluejacket66]

Hi Garret! Will do my friend

[@garycarrock5915]

Happy Thanksgiving Dave!

[@Bluejacket66]

Hope you had a great day Gary

[@halfcenturycollectingcards]

it is a stunner!

[@Bluejacket66]

Thank you!

[@krankrocker]

A stunner indeed, Dave. Thanks for sharing. I agree with you about the #s on the Mays. Maybe Topps dumped some Series 5 cases too and that somehow wasn't logged. Some guy at the last minute said, "Hey, and grab those too!" I don't know enough about the ocean dumping story, but the whole thing seems fishy to me. It would seem a lot easier to have just incinerated them vs. taking the time to load them on a plane in the first place.

[@Bluejacket66]

I would imagine they had some extra of several years and multiple series… idk. But just the premise and the visual of dumping in the river seems ridiculous

[@JStottlemire1]

I love a great discussion and debate. Berger was full of it! Truth 😂

[@Bluejacket66]

Just the premise is ridiculous

[@jp82cards30]

keep in mind many of those PSA pop report numbers are the same card that were snapped out and resubmitted in an attempt to get higher grades. I'd say several hundred for each Mays and Mantle, so there are likely far fewer than the numbers would suggest that have been submitted.

[@Bluejacket66]

You’re right I’m sure

[@JunkWaxHero]

Beautiful card, Dave. And interesting question about the pop report. Is it possible that a lot of the Mays cards were destroyed or thrown away by kids because he wasn’t known until 1954, whereas Mantle was a household name right away?

[@ZiggyNo]

Were young white kids collecting Mays as much as white players. Racism wasn’t limited to adults. Nor isn’t today 🤔

[@Bluejacket66]

Both were 2nd year players. Mays missed 52-53 due to service… and no doubt wasn’t as popular as mantle.. but he was huge in the 50-60s. I can see that counting for it. I think the pop numbers are correct and that River dump story is fantasy… I’ll lay out my case in the future

[@mickcornett2279]

Mays was rookie of the year.😊

[@JunkWaxHero]

@@mickcornett2279 in 1951, yes. Then barely played (and played poorly when he did) in 1952, and didn’t play in 1953. Meanwhile, Mantle was 3rd in MVP in 1952 and a candidate again in 1953. He was fresh in minds when people were pulling these cards. Just a theory.

[@jpwiscobaseballcards1192]

Thanks for this, I've always considered the river dump tale to be apocryphal baloney. And nice Mays, that one definitely didn't go near any water.

[@Bluejacket66]

We’ll look at it a little more in depth later

[@larrygitlin6017]

Nice 52 Mays! The math does not add up does it. What is the pop of each in SGCs? I checked it and about the same proportion, 888 Mays and 647 Mantles.

[@Bluejacket66]

Doesn’t make sense. I don’t think there was an ocean dump

[@kenscardboard]

Great looking card Dave! I prefer Mays over Mantle as a collector. Great points about how many possible cards were destroyed. Do the Jackie numbers jive with the Mantle numbers?

[@Bluejacket66]

I think Robinsons numbers are about same as mantle?

[@MrJmangini]

I never bought that story either. I had done a video showing the Mantle and Mays cards have very similar pops.

[@Bluejacket66]

Berger said it happened, why he waited 35 years to disclose it is beyond me. May be a sliver of truth to the story but I think he got caught up in the 52 Mantle conversation in the 90s and may have created a whopper!?

[@custum18]

I have one but it's not graded. None of my vintage cards are graded. My dad was a shop owner and dealer for decades. None of his stuff was graded that I now own.

[@Bluejacket66]

Chris I think that’s awesome and the purest way to collect

[@CardKingCollectibles]

That Mays is NICE!

[@Bluejacket66]

👍

[@chrishayes4166]

Very interesting thoughts shared on the widely told story of those fateful 52 topps at the bottom of the Hudson! And yeah that Mays looks fantastic. I'm just gonna assume a kid wrote their first girlfriends phone number on the back of the card and that's why it's a 3 😂 Thanks for sharing as always, should we get our hopes up for another certain 52 topps reveal anytime soon?

[@Bluejacket66]

Nope just tiny hair wrinkle on the bottom!

[@brianpowell7416]

Dave, that a PSA grader would deem your beautiful 1952 Topps Willie Mays a 3 is nothing short of ludicrous. By their OWN standards, the very least the card should grade is a Very Good - Excellent 4.5, or a Very Good 4 at the worst. As you know, the message boards are boiling over the issue of how PSA is no longer grading cards by their old, fair standards. Let me say this, if PSA is employing some sort of computer program to grade cards, to take the wear and tear out of their graders' eyes (i.e. the ability to hire fewer actual graders and save money!!!!!**!), there will be a hobby time bomb put in place. The end result of such foolish business judgment will be collectors becoming discouraged and disillusioned with the whole grading concept. They will submit many fewer cards, and essentially give up. In essence, what's the point of knocking myself out, and sending a lot of money to PSA in order for my cards to be mis-graded, and wind up with under-graded cards that I will have to explain EVERY TIME to everybody how the card is better than the grade. Whoever installed the computerized grading program needs to be tarred and feathered. The new standards of the computer should match PSA's long-ago stated standards PRECISELY. Suppose it's not a new computerized grading program, and merely the young, new crop of human graders evaluating our cardboard gems. If that's the case, there is something definitely wrong with this picture. Collectors will do something besides spouting complaints---they will give up, as I wrote, or switch to SGC and get as many of their fellow collectors to follow suit. Years ago, I complained on the message boards about SGC seemingly never grading a card "98 GEM MINT". Surely there were SOME cards that are pristine / GEM MINT. Within a short time, I did start to notice SGC grading a few more cards as GEM MINT. If the shoe fits, wear it. If the card meets the standards, grade it as such. If you're a dishonest grading company, or play up to and grant favors for the wealthy, collectors will slowly BUT SURELY see through their devious ways and the said company will implode. Just my nickel packs' worth. --- Brian Powell@@Bluejacket66

[@Bluejacket66]

@brianpowell7416 I agree Brian, in short, I don’t care what the card looks like at the subatomic level. What does it look like in hand. What does the eye say?

[@brianpowell7416]

Naturally, Dave, your '52 Willie Mays is not in my hand, but your camera was well-trained on it, and that gem most assuredly does not look like a PSA 3. When PSA grades a card that nice with that not-so-nice number, they vilify their name and reputation, and severely tarnish their credibility. PSA, are you reading any of this? Or are you aping Daffy Duck when he tacitly replies, "Don't bother me; I'm busy counting my massive profits!. I'm filthy-stinking rich, and I can't be bothered with rabble. So, beat it, boy, ya bother me." Recently, I finally decided to work with another dealer / collector who brokers deals for "nice" cards. He submitted to PSA one of my cards I placed on the cover of NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN. The card was carefully cracked out of its SGC holder, sent to PSA, who proceeded to give it a measly VG-EX 4. There wasn't a crease to be found on that unique gem. Be that as it may, the collector / dealer knew where to find the right Mickey Mantle collector who would see the gem for what it was. A deal was struck---the new owner is very happy, I'm very pleased, and my broker got a nice commission. But PSA's grade was a stinking carcass in the whole scenario!@@Bluejacket66

[@Bluejacket66]

@@brianpowell7416 always great to hear from you Brian

[@4LeafCards]

Beautiful Mays! I could see dumping some if they had some extras and sales werent going well instead if paying warehouse space for dead inventory. A few oallets would be no big deal and enough to make for a really cool story

[@Bluejacket66]

They owned the warehouse and were moving into a new huge one🤷‍♂️

[@4LeafCards]

@Bluejacket66 I run distribution and throw stuff out all the time. If they were moving they might have wanted to start clean. 🤷

[@Bluejacket66]

@@4LeafCards I think that was part of the story, you’re right.

[@georgeriley4818]

I'm hearing the Mantle was a double print. So, if that's the case, you have to divide the Mantle by two. So, that 1800 is now 900. 3000 to 900 makes a lot more sense. Also, perhaps comparing Mays to Robinson is the better choice since it's obvious that the highest percentage of graded cards is Mantle. Jackie Robinson was also supposedly a double print. So, you need to divide by two with that as well. That makes 700. So, 3000 to 700. I believe there's about four times the series five cards as there are the last series

[@Bluejacket66]

Yes mantle was a double print.

[@vintagecollector5340]

Im willing to bet theres still a ton of Mays and Mantle in some older collections. The kids who collected in the 50s are now elderly folks in at least their 70s. Theres a good chance theres still alot of these people alive who have collections stashed away. As I type this, people are finding these Mantles inside basements and older collections. Discoveries like this are always happening, so I know theres a ton more of this stuff waiting to be found. As more elderly folk die, more and more of this stuff will surface on the news outlets and be auctioned off.

[@Bluejacket66]

I think there’s a lot out there too , but we have 70 years of data so far and the numbers don’t jive that there are 7000 mantle in the water

[@vintagecollector5340]

@@Bluejacket66 I think it's mostly a myth, unless someone can locate a newspaper or magazine that might have such evidence. Im into older newspapers, which indeed was trashed. Ive acquired a few different ones mentioning Mays debut and his first MLB hit as a homerun. These are much rarer than any 1952 Topps, BUT I don't know that they will ever aquire much value.

[@RipFan8]

Hi Dave, that is a beautful eye popping card

[@Bluejacket66]

Hey thanks Stephen

[@jchcollins]

I've never bought the high numbers in the Hudson story. Sy Berger from Topps didn't start telling that story until he was a much older man, and it was after the retail hobby boom of the 1980's had started. To my knowledge no Topps employee from the 1950's has ever corroborated it. It has almost a freakishly fairy-tale like component to it to go along with what is already a famous set, and the first "high numbers" ever. We may never know what really happened, but to me it just sounds too convenient for Mr. Berger, and too good to be true.

[@Bluejacket66]

Ya I don’t think he told that story until the 1990s…. It’s probably one of those stories that has a BIT of fact to it with a lot of added froth

[@tdfowler79]

Seems to me that they're there. If 6800 were printed, how many survived to be graded? Famously thrown away... poorly treated, bike spokes etc. You need to know the percentage that survived if you truly want to solve the equation you're presenting.

[@Bluejacket66]

That’s impossible, so we go by what is out there and compare numbers…. doesn’t make sense

[@jiordone8563]

i had two '52 Mays cards both graded 6, had to sell them off about a decade ago. Uuuuggghhh!

[@Bluejacket66]

We all have to do that at some point… it stinks

[@pepinoman9271]

I don't think they threw away that many cards. Numbers seem exaggerated to me

[@Bluejacket66]

I don’t think they threw away any …….but if they did it seems the simplest way would to hire a large truck, drive it to the docks, hire some sort of barge that can dump from the bottom, drive it out into the ocean and dump it. Much easier than setting it out to the curb like the rest of New York

[@pepinoman9271]

Heard it was common practice back then

[@vintageoddballcards6103]

I heard Sy Berger liked to exaggerate things. The math doesn’t add up. I’m going to ask the hobby watchdogs to investigate. Lol

[@Bluejacket66]

I’ll do the whole investigation I did… I don’t but it. The premise itself ( the act) is ridiculous if you think about it

[@ThoseBackPages]

THE I WORD! =O

[@Bluejacket66]

🫵

[@johngarcia1340]

I hate to say it but most of those Mays cards were put into bicyckle spokes and Destroyed through wear and tear. Yes thousands of cards Destroyed that way. Mays was popular and many thousands of kids 'played' with that card. They eventually were thrown away and have since dissolved. Even before the big dump story, most collectors assumed, rightly so, that the kids from the 50's damaged the cards and their mom's threw them in the trash eventually. That's why by even the '70's the cards were already valuable collectibles.

[@Bluejacket66]

For sure John!!

[@LegendsNeverDieCollection]

#WhereIsMays

[@Bluejacket66]

🤣

[@topps85401]

There is a possibility that racism played a role. I suppose you could compare Robinson pop reports to Mantle to make that comparison. Also Mantle may get cracked and re submitted more than any other card. Heck it’s been done on KZbin lol.

[@Bluejacket66]

Maybe…🤷‍♂️