My Clubhouse Debate with a Muslim on Historical Anachronisms in the Quran

[@DrOmar11]

Religious people very frequently name all their children on a memory evoking way. One of my cousin sister’s name is Sarah. Her sister’s name is Hajra. Of course, we know that Hajar wife is Abraham like Sarah was. They have another sister named Amina who is the name of the Prophet Muhammad’s mother. Of course, no one will think that if I mention about my cousins, I am thinking that Sarah and Hagar were aunts of the Prophet Muhammad. Now, coming to the issue of Miriam, it’s not at all surprising that if Miriam’s father had the name of Moses’s father that he would then want to name his daughter after Moses’s sister.

[@AlbertM170]

However there is no evidence whatsoever that the father of Mary had the same name as the father of Moses and Aaron. Some say Heli from Luke 3 was Mary's father. Some 2nd and 3rd century apocryphal traditions attributed the name Joachim to her father. But at no point did anyone prior to Muhammad give the grandfather of Jesus the name Amram or, in Arabic, Imran. The only person ever referenced by that name in any Judeo-Christian religious traditions (Biblical, apocrypha, Jewish historians like Philo and Josephus, Mishnah, Talmud, Church fathers, gnostic texts, Church councils etc) is the father of Moses. The inference is clear. Muhammad did not know the difference between the mother of Jesus and the sister of Moses. He thought they were one and the same person simply because they had the same name. He plagiarised scriptures and traditions that he knew next to nothing about, simply from hearing campfire stories and folk tales, which explains why his contemporaries would call him 'The Ear' for believing every story he heard.

[@rigby3620]

I saw your Mary/Sister of Aaron thumbnail and that's been refuted for a while. You're not even a very good apologist. Wensincks conclusion, supported by the figurative speech of the Quran and the Islamic tradition: Maryam is called a sister of Hārūn and the use of these three names Imrān, Hārūn and Maryam, has led to the supposition that the Kur'ān does not clearly distinguish between the two Maryams of the Old and the New Testaments. It is not necessary to assume that these kinship links are to be interpreted in modern terms. The words "sister" and "daughter", like their male counterparts, in Arabic usage can indicate extended kinship, descendance or spiritual affinity. Muslim tradition is clear that there are eighteen centuries between the Biblical Amram and the father of Maryam. (Arent Jan Wensinck: Maryam. In: A. J. Wensinck, J. H. Kramers (Hrsg.): Handwörterbuch des Islam. pp. 421-423.) Similarly, Stowasser concludes that "to confuse Mary the mother of Jesus with Mary the sister of Moses and Aaron in Torah is completely wrong and in contradiction to the sound Hadith and the Qur'anic text as we have established" (B. F. Stowasser, Women In The Qur'an, Traditions, And Interpretation, 1994, Oxford University Press: New York, p. 393-394.) Its typological conflation of Mary with Miriam and tabernacle/temple imagery as applied to Mary: web.archive.org/web/20200930174252/www.almuslih.com/Library/Wilde%2C%20C%20-%20Jesus%20and%20Mary%20-%20Quranic%20echoes%20of%20Syriac%20homilies.pdf quranx.com/hadith/Muslim/Reference/Hadith-2135/ Mughira b. Shu'ba reported: When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read" O sister of Harun" (i. e. Hadrat Maryam) in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them." In the Qur’ān, ibn and bint do not always mean “direct child”: they can also mean “descendants, progeny” (2:246; 3:49; 5:72; 7:35; 17:70; 36:60); moreover, aḫ and uḫt do not always indicate a sibling relationship: they can refer to a tribal relationship (7:73), a religious bond (3:103), an ancestor (7:38) or a predecessor (43:48) relationship. According to this interpretation, the formula “sister of Aaron” means only that Mary is the descendent of Aaron: “The expression sister of AaronĪ moreover, occurs in the Qur’ānic reference to the questioning of Mary in the Temple. It is especially appropriate in this context for the questioning the Temple’s priests to magnify Mary’s moral transgressions (her pregnancy) by appealing to her ancestor Aaron, whose descendents are the only Israelites qualified to serve in the Temple, where Mary herself was raised. In other words, Mary as a descendent of Aaron is expected to keep the purity of the sanctuary, rather than defile it by supposedly committing the shameful act that would lead to a pregnancy. Here too, there are no grounds where the Quran is specifically stating the Mary is the literal sister of Aaron.” This is smart: from a linguistic point of view, it is possible indeed to understand the words this way, and what it tells about the blame addressed to Mary might be true. Yet, ultimately, this explanation is not really successful, since it ignores Q 3:35-36: "When the wife of 'Imran said: 'My Lord, surely I vow to You what is in my belly, (to be) dedicated (to Your service). (...) And when she had delivered her, she said, 'My Lord, surely I have delivered her, a female', (...) and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her with you, and for her offspring [durriyyataha], from the accursed Satan"."

[@jpnoobieeiboonpj858]

Rob, thanks brother. The gracious and sound approach is a great diaplay of the Good Fruit being beared.

[@NateMP]

These discussions are awesome to hear thanks for posting this

[@jaskitstepkit7153]

Might as well say that David also had a space ship that one day we will discover.

[@raphaelfeneje486]

Isn't it funny that this dude is saying the Qu'ran expands on everything?? Dude is going round circles! They know it's false

[@akkadian4709]

That's precisely what these gnostic texts do, they try to expand on biblical stories.

[@akkadian4709]

Just a correction, the apocryphal books try to expand on biblical stories but because most apocryphal texts are gnostic, it's almost the same. I actually didn't know apocrypha was gnostic.

[@raphaelfeneje486]

@@akkadian4709 Apocryphal is in fact gnostic. The gnostic gospels as well

[@masterofwisdom6285]

I missed these, always fun to listen to and enlightening. Also gives a glimpse into the psyche of a Muslim and how incapable they are of understanding criticism.

[@akkadian4709]

Rob can you tell me where can i find the gnostic story of Jesus laughing with the archons that you mentioned in the muslim lantern debate? I can't seem to find it anywhere!! Thanks.

[@SentinelApologetics]

Here it is from the Gnostic Second Treatise of Seth: "I was not afflicted at all. Those there punished me, yet I did not die in solid reality but in what appears, in order that I not be put to shame by them. For my death which they think happened, it happened to them in their error and blindness. They nailed their man up to their death. Another, their father, was the one who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They were hitting me with the reed; another was the one who lifted up the cross on his shoulder, who was Simon. Another was the one on whom they put the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the riches of the archons and the offspring of their error and their conceit, and I was laughing at their ignorance."

[@akkadian4709]

@SentinelApologetics I can't believe that I was about to read from the treatise of Seth when you posted the answer. Thanks.

[@busfeet2080]

After watching several of your arduous debates with Muslims, I am starting to suspect that many of your debate opponents at some level know that the Quran is ridiculous, but they so badly want it to be true that they will make just about any logical leap to hold to it.

[@ihaveatonofnames]

15:08 Forehead slap.

[@Robert-fe4uf]

Loooool David made chain armor in the third century BC

[@dollahmusa6705]

Even the Name of Eve was mentioned in the koran !! Even Jibril Never Reveal to mohd or anyone in the koran !!!

[@dollahmusa6705]

The Koran confused the sister of Moses by implication (Miriam) with Mary, the mother of Jesus 3 times. And Muhammad seemed to think that Jesus was Moses' nephew, the son of Moses' sister Mariam. Mary, the mother of Jesus, and Miriam the sister of Moses actually lived about 1500 years apart. The entire Chapter 19 is devoted to Mary (Maryam) the mother of Jesus in the Qur'an. Surah 19:28, "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" Surah 66.12 calls Mary 'daughter of lmran". lmran is the Arabic form of the Hebrew Amram mentioned in Numbers 26.59 as the father of "Aaron, Moses and Miriam." The title "sister of Aaron" is given to Miriam in Exodus 15.20. Surah 3.35-36, The wife of Amram said, "My Lord, I have dedicated (the baby) in my belly to You, totally, so accept from me. You are Hearer, Omniscient."

[@rigby3620]

Nope. Wensincks conclusion, supported by the figurative speech of the Quran and the Islamic tradition: Maryam is called a sister of Hārūn and the use of these three names Imrān, Hārūn and Maryam, has led to the supposition that the Kur'ān does not clearly distinguish between the two Maryams of the Old and the New Testaments. It is not necessary to assume that these kinship links are to be interpreted in modern terms. The words "sister" and "daughter", like their male counterparts, in Arabic usage can indicate extended kinship, descendance or spiritual affinity. Muslim tradition is clear that there are eighteen centuries between the Biblical Amram and the father of Maryam. (Arent Jan Wensinck: Maryam. In: A. J. Wensinck, J. H. Kramers (Hrsg.): Handwörterbuch des Islam. pp. 421-423.) Similarly, Stowasser concludes that "to confuse Mary the mother of Jesus with Mary the sister of Moses and Aaron in Torah is completely wrong and in contradiction to the sound Hadith and the Qur'anic text as we have established" (B. F. Stowasser, Women In The Qur'an, Traditions, And Interpretation, 1994, Oxford University Press: New York, p. 393-394.) Its typological conflation of Mary with Miriam and tabernacle/temple imagery as applied to Mary: web.archive.org/web/20200930174252/www.almuslih.com/Library/Wilde%2C%20C%20-%20Jesus%20and%20Mary%20-%20Quranic%20echoes%20of%20Syriac%20homilies.pdf quranx.com/hadith/Muslim/Reference/Hadith-2135/ Mughira b. Shu'ba reported: When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read" O sister of Harun" (i. e. Hadrat Maryam) in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them." In the Qur’ān, ibn and bint do not always mean “direct child”: they can also mean “descendants, progeny” (2:246; 3:49; 5:72; 7:35; 17:70; 36:60); moreover, aḫ and uḫt do not always indicate a sibling relationship: they can refer to a tribal relationship (7:73), a religious bond (3:103), an ancestor (7:38) or a predecessor (43:48) relationship. According to this interpretation, the formula “sister of Aaron” means only that Mary is the descendent of Aaron: “The expression sister of AaronĪ moreover, occurs in the Qur’ānic reference to the questioning of Mary in the Temple. It is especially appropriate in this context for the questioning the Temple’s priests to magnify Mary’s moral transgressions (her pregnancy) by appealing to her ancestor Aaron, whose descendents are the only Israelites qualified to serve in the Temple, where Mary herself was raised. In other words, Mary as a descendent of Aaron is expected to keep the purity of the sanctuary, rather than defile it by supposedly committing the shameful act that would lead to a pregnancy. Here too, there are no grounds where the Quran is specifically stating the Mary is the literal sister of Aaron.” This is smart: from a linguistic point of view, it is possible indeed to understand the words this way, and what it tells about the blame addressed to Mary might be true. Yet, ultimately, this explanation is not really successful, since it ignores Q 3:35-36: "When the wife of 'Imran said: 'My Lord, surely I vow to You what is in my belly, (to be) dedicated (to Your service). (...) And when she had delivered her, she said, 'My Lord, surely I have delivered her, a female', (...) and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her with you, and for her offspring [durriyyataha], from the accursed Satan"."

[@DrOmar11]

Sorry but you are making an incorrect inference. Please see my other response on this issue.

[@clydecollins629]

Islam is confusing because it's copy and paste of an incorrect version of the biblical truths. How can they clarify if they have the best of the deceivers?

[@dollahmusa6705]

Without lying islam dies..