My Holy Trinity of FREE JAZZ

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Andy is a drummer, producer and educator. He has toured the world with rock legend Robert Plant and played on classic prog albums by Frost and IQ.
As a drum clinician he has played with Terry Bozzio, Kenny Aronoff, Thomas Lang, Marco Minneman and Mike Portnoy.
He also teaches drums privately and at Kidderminster College

[@JCM-LedZeppelin-Stories]

I love Machine Gun....absolutely from start to finish. Brings peace into my life, beautiful chaos...when i see metalheads brag about their bands i laugh, they don't hold a candle to Machine Gun lol. I still have not been able to get it on CD. The first version i mean. I dont want the 2007 pressing.

[@danielschnee2666]

I was actually a private student of Ornette's between 1997 - 2009. He was THE nicest guy ever... he would always offer to make me lunch and so on before our lessons. An absolute angel...

[@codyives5409]

Amazing! Do you teach now?

[@danielschnee2666]

@@codyives5409 No. But here is all you need to know: imagine all the note names on your instrument don't exist. Forget about C or Eb when you press those notes... just listen to the pitch/sound, then listen to the flow and feeling when you move to another pitch/sound. This process of "Un-naming" - playing sounds rather than "notes" - is REALLY freeing...

[@oolongoolong789]

Great to see Peter Brotzmann and the lads getting a mention. I see Machine Gun as one of the early defining statements of European free improvisation. Manfred Schoof's European Echoes (1969) is another massively noisy statement that put European free improv on the map. I vividly remember going to a Peter Brotzmann gig in London many years ago. He was playing in a trio with John Russell and Roger Turner. My chair was at the front and Peter was standing probably 10 feet from where I was sitting. When he played loud, which was often, it was like being engulfed by a tsunami of sound. Wonderful and frightening!!!

[@HP_____]

The Holy Trinity of free jazz in terms of musicians to me will always be Cecil Taylor, John Coltrane, and Ornette Coleman. My first encounter of Ornette was from the 1990 David Cronenberg film NAKED LUNCH when I was still in college. When I first heard the alto sax in the open credit sequence I could see my ship sailing in. The sound I've been waiting my whole life in my head had finally arrived. I felt like I could just swim in the pool of sound. How strange and pleasurable it was hear someone playing the sax sounding like horse whining! It tickled me to no end. "Yes, finally!" I said to myself that it is okay to play the sax this way. Yes, music can be this strange and enjoyable. It was so liberating! I just couldn't get enough of it. It was later I did my research that Ornette was supposed to be controversial! Wtf?! Thanks to that experience I was able to enjoy earlier music like bebop, swing, and Dixieland. Yes, I pretty much worked my way backwards in history of the genre and enjoy them equally, well, except fusion... I loved Machine Gun instantly! It was pure pleasure for me! One of my favorite albums of all time. If I ever go to hell, I want to take that with me but not as punishment but as cheating! I love it!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

That Naked Lunch soundtrack is beautiful and unlike anything else I can think of.

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

There is a call back to Dixieland jazz especially in OC's Free Jazz. Ed Blackwell has to be one of the greatest drummers of the 20th century.

[@portley777]

I guessed the first two but thought the third would have been the Art Ensemble of Chicago but I got Machine gunned.

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

The Art Ensemble of Chicago were amazing. So was the entire AACM with Braxton, Abrams, Air (Steve McCall RIP was an astonishing drummer). And the Black Artists Group (Oliver Lake) was great too. There were, and are, a few enclaves of the music around the world. The Jazz Composers Guild and ESP records were pivotal in generating interest in Free Jazz. Elton Dean (again RIP) was playing free when he was offered to reform Soft Machine (then Soft Machine Legacy) in the 1990's-so that desire to play free doesn't seem to die easily.

[@steverickenbacher7110]

Great choices and brilliant analysis. The concept of dueling bands within the larger band has been done in rock too. The example that immediately comes to mind is the King Crimson Double Trio band that released "Thrak" in 1995. Fripp, Levin, Bruford v. Belew, Gunn, Mastelotto. Of course, they managed to make it all sound fairly accessible. As an aside, I'm currently listening to Mongezi Feza's "Free Jam" with the Swedish Bernt Rosengren Quartet. At times, Feza (of the South African band The Blue Notes, which had a huge impact on the British jazz scene of the time) sounds like Don Cherry on steroids. This album was released by Ayler Records, which has released many great examples of free jazz over the last 20 or so years. I'd also recommend Danish guitarist, Marc Ducret's 5 Tower series albums. Ducret has performed with American saxophonist Tim Berne (another proponent of free jazz) many times over the last 30+ years. As a matter of fact, Tim appears on 2 of those Tower series albums.

[@wagstaff6135]

In the much more “listenable” side perhaps, but a large ensemble,early free-jazz recording, Don Cherry’s “Complete Communion” is, like whiskers on kittens, among my favorite things.

[@geoffccrow2333]

PS. Ive seen number of large free band performances AND i once saw Ascension live at a local radio station one sunday afternoon. I was the only audience member. Greatest performance I've ever experienced. I also have the CD of that day. Can never compare to being there.

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

There is a melodic "head" in the Free Jazz album. Free Jazz can also be heard as a reference to Charles Ives and George Ives experimental work, but from a different tradition.

[@CharlesAustin]

This is a great outline of free jazz concepts and albums.. I wonder about the meaning of the word: “Freedom” and what it means to us in the free world. Free jazz is certainly an invitation for adventure for the players. Is it often the abandonment of structure? I think that some sort of discipline can be open ended and lead to a greater sense of freedom when attempting to play free jazz. I found it the hardest thing to do (on piano at least) but found a growing awareness of the field in which it is played which was very rewarding. I think free jazz and free improve needs to be played more and your video is certainly encouraging and makes a good case for a greater inclusion of this genre (beyond genre for sure) in everyday musical life. I love all your videos and the value that you instil.. so insightful and so interestingly thoughtful !! Thanks again Andy. Awesome and engaging !!

[@davidrogers3875]

Andy, thanks for the interesting video. I must say that I am not a huge fan of free jazz. However, I do feel that sometimes from the chaos, something magical may emerge. I often think it is like going for a walk in the woods, getting lost and then finding a destination or resolution. I am not completely sure if this is jazz, but folks may find this interesting. Side two of “Greasy Truckers Live at Dingwalls Dance Hall” is by Henry Cow (it was later release on the CD release of Henry Cow “Concerts”). There is a lot of free improvisation which is not an easy listen for me. However, when we get to "Keeping Warm in Winter" and "Sweet Heart of Mine", it feels like there is some sort of a resolution. There are a couple of notes repeated on the piano and a guitar sound etc. I think that this conclusion is beautiful. So here is the question: Does the resolution sound so good because the improvised journey to get there was so difficult to listen to. See what you think.

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

I think you hit a strong point when you mentioned that virtually none of these albums are unstructured. I personally find it difficult to select only three albums to focus on. Cecil Taylor's Conquistador! was an extremely important album for me, so was Albert Ayler's Love Cry. Actually when I finally heard Free Jazz (my friends and I engaged in a flurry of free jazz exploration between 1970 and 1975 and it kept pretty constant through 1979; in 1979-1980, it was the start of a more reflective period-Anthony Davis, for example-that I didn't enjoy as much), especially intense around 1971-1973 and I was able to see a lot of these great players as late as 1989. I realize it's difficult to discuss every influence (Jimmy Giuffre, Jaki Byard, even going back to Lionel Hampton's experiments). If you look closely at it, free improv can be traced back to Vaughan-Williams in the 30s, and, as Derek Bailey noted in his book, to classical organ, flamenco, Indian classical music, etc. There were indications of free improv through history. It's not new at all. This doesn't diminish the importance of Coleman, Coltrane, Brotzmann (or Taylor, Ayler, Derek Bailey, Evan Parker, Paul Bley, Sun Ra) or many others who came out of a jazz background and inspired others to experiment. It's possible to stymy free music, but very difficult. It's a more difficult beast to tame because so much of our music culture focuses on what is reproduceable from records or sheet music. One performance of free music will never be identical to another--and that is its commercial curse but also its blessing.

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

Thanks for adding Brotzmann! I was a free jazz fan as soon as I saw Ornette Coleman live and I was a huge Cecil Taylor fan, but FMP (and Incus and ICP and BV Haast) weren't readily available even in large cities like Boston in the United States and the closest I got was a Gunter Hampel lp and it was inconsistent exposure. Around 1978 I made a friend who loved all areas of jazz but was familiar with the European scene (I was familiar with Derek Bailey and John Stevens in the UK). But encountering the Germans and Dutch was like a blast of new energy I didn't know about! I did manage to hear and meet Willem Breuker, who was great, but his band was working off annotated Weill style composition. Evan Parker is stunning, so is Bennink to name a couple from that array of talent on Machine Gun. Although they are now a bit tough to find, record labels FMP, BV Haast, Calig, Moers Music, Incus and Calig produced records by some of these artists (quite a few) and for a connection with Ornette, Don Cherry, who played with Ornette, had a big group of these players on a recording called Actions. To this day, Han Bennink is one of my favorite musicians; drummer, multi-instrumentalist, lover of Monk (he was on Eric Dolphy's Last Date album, tying these guys back to Coltrane as well as Coleman. Europe, Russia, Japan, South Africa, Australia, Argentina, Brazil, Indonesia, India had a bunch of extraordinary players who are largely ignored as important jazz artists because of the current politics around jazz, which is a shame. The more internationally a music is represented and appreciated, the more universal it is. And jazz of all kinds is a universal music. (This doesn't diminish its origins in black culture in the United States; it just underscores how important this music is to the entire world!)

[@felixgerena7987]

Ascension was not that difficilt to me to listen to, maybe because it follows the spiritual idea of the ascension. It gets loud, wild and almost noisy but it is deep and soulful at the same time. The presence of Mr. Billy Higgins on the first album justifies the listening effort. Andy, on this video you give a great description of jazz that I never came up with by myself: "Jazz is about the relationship between the individual and the collective". Spot on.

[@jelk1188]

Trying to catch up on all these old posts! Difficult indeed, Andy. By comparison, Bluebeard's Castle is a walk in the park and The Miraculous Mandarin might be a mere pop song. All these three jazz works have something in common: musical clutter. The opposite might be a 40 minute recording of wind chimes. Music leaning towards a Black canvas vs a white canvas? At my age I prefer much less clutter, so a good example of what that approach sounds like would be the two piano version of The Miraculous Mandarin - where the general mood of the piece has space to breathe; the essence of what is happening is pared down to a minimalist framework - the atonality still expresses mystery and menace but is far less bombastic. I'm sure Andy would find that version meandering, lol, much like Moonchild probably gets on his nerves. If we ever have afternoon tea together I wonder if I could get away with insisting on Moonchild playing in the background, so long as the biscuit choice is good enough? It would be interesting to see what kind of animation you would be inclined to create in a scenario where you'd have to make one for Machine Gun as well as Moonchild? Cheers, great topic as always.

[@jazzistheanswerwhatisyourq603]

You have selected an interesting “Holy Trinity” of free jazz! You are certainly correct when you say that the uninitiated listener would have a difficult time with this music. While I find the first moments of “Machine Gun” to be very aggressive and hard on the ears, the album is actually quite varied with more than a few “quieter” moments. It is freedom within a composed structure. And, yes, the recording of this piece could have been much better (it would help to appreciate it even more). I hear Machine Gun today and I certainly can relate to its European aesthetic much better today than I did in the 1970s when I first became aware of it. I can’t help but think about Ukraine today and see how this piece is a commentary on European history of the 20th and early 21st century. As harsh as it might sound, this music is about life, its struggles and joys! Thank you for the video, I loved hearing your thoughts on these albums! If you are a free jazz aficionado, I would love to see you share more with us here in KZbinLand!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

brilliant point about Ukraine....that album somehow sums up the situation there in a very moving way

[@thirdcoast5755]

More of this, please.

[@coolguitarchannel]

Andy, have you listen to much of Sun Ra? He made some pretty gnarly albums in the realm of free jazz in the 60s and early 70s. They’re pretty out there. An album like Space is the Place comes to find. A video on him would be interesting.

[@alexposilkin9683]

Great video. Love Machine Gun. Never got to see Brotzmann live, but I have seen Han Bennink in a couple of duo performances, once with pianist Myra Medford and once with guitarist Eugene Chadbourne. I don’t think any musician comes close to Bennink in wildness, personality, and amazing chops. I also recently listened to For Alto by Anthony Braxton, which is an hour of solo saxophone. The freedom and vocabulary he plays with here is quite stunning and very engaging.

[@nunestunes]

I didn't know about the first album but just that line up...

[@dlsamson]

When I was young (& long before I engaged in my current profession ;-) I did some experiments with hallucinogens & listened to Ascension. Whereas my previous listen w/o the chemical assistance resulted in, shall we say, not so much listening pleasure. However, with the artificial aids, it all made perfect sense. I heard (what I perceived as) melody & rhythm. I don't think I've tried to listen since. It's been a long time & I'm not inclined to get the same kind of assistance at this point in my life. Apparently I got the correct "short circuits"

[@terryjohnson5275]

Not being one to dismiss anything until I've heard it I just had to find these three. The Coltrane and Coleman are on Deezer so will be trying them out later but I thought, what the heck lets dive right in with the Brotzman, which I found on You Tube. At the moment on British TV on the BBC on a Tuesday night there's a programme called Freeze the Fear where celebrities take on Wim Hof's cold water and Ice challenge - which got me into start taking cold showers first thing in a morning. The start of Machine Gun reminded me of the first time I went from a luke warm shower to a cold shower, and then after a while you get used to the cold and actually start to sort of enjoy it. I have to say just as I was starting to think that I might turn it off, they go off and start a tune and a groove - amazing how thats formed out of the chaos that precedes it. There were bits of it that were reminiscent of what Keith Emerson used to do with his Organ and I'm sure Robert Fripp - or at least Ian McDonald and maybe Mel Collins - must have been taking notes as there were parts that sound very similar to what King Crimson were doing - e.g. the end of Schizoid Man. Will I listen to it again - I might if only to see if I can...... I'm also possibly not that normal, or it may just be that I havent listened to the right things for me, but unlike what Gregg Bendian was saying where getting it may be better by first listening to a duo rather than an ensemble, I found I'd rather listen to Machine Gun than Derek Bailey with Anthony Braxton - but that may just be because I find I dont really like hearing the guitar played in that way.

[@Robt.Velasquez]

The ‘unitiated’ …lol. I recall buying a Derek Bailey record and loved it but thought, “can’t wait to shake up my musician friends sharing it. It wasn’t going to be an ‘Eddie Money’ listening experience for sure!

[@stephenbarrow3352]

When I first heard A Live Supreme I thought it was a really difficult listen but it grew on me very quickly. I don't know about Ascension, I've never listened to it but I imagine it's a few more notches up the scale.

[@ganazby]

Ascension is a personal fave. Absolutely love it. I don’t know ‘Machine Gun’, but following your review, I can’t wait jump in the ring and go a few rounds with it. Have the feeling it may be necessary to first fortify myself with a glass or two of wine. I’ll report back with my findings.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Definitely two!

[@ganazby]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Advice taken, fuses blown! Btw, I would love to hear your take on Henry Cow. They are super important, in my view, and don’t get the exposure or credit they deserve. Cheers. Lovin’ the weird stuff.

[@zarg05]

I went thro a long period of listening to free jazz in my younger days. It kind of was a metaphor for life, trying to figure out meaning from the chaos, working out if I had choices, free will or determinism. I love Coltrane but still struggle with ascension (like I struggle with the bartok string quartets) or ette I got and Cecil Taylor, less so Derek Bailey. But maybe it's a wall of sound, the brain automatically searches for patterns based on its past experience. The brain needs training to acquire and accommodate newness, or maybe its the ultimate limit to what it can un derstand

[@zarg05]

Apologies for the typos!!

[@garyrobinson8665]

Hi there. I've been listening to a lot of jazz recently. Mainly blue note. I've noticed that im not enjoying the hard bop as much as I want to. I'm finding it a bit samey and uninteresting. Don't get me wrong I love some of it. I'm getting really into the avant garde free jazz stuff. I thought I'd dislike it. I think it's because I like Frank Zappa especially his jazzy stuff like burnt weeny sandwich, uncle meat. Been listening to a lot of ornette coleman, Don Cherry, Andrew Hill, Grachan Moncur. I don't know if i like it but I can't stop listening. I find it exciting and interesting. I don't know where its going.

[@devereauxclandestine1272]

The first time I heard Coltrane was the 'Ascension' album - came as a bit of a shock! You definitely have to be in the right mood to tackle 'Machine Gun'. I probably wouldn't recommend these three as introductions to the free thing to newcomers though. Although having said that I'm not too sure what titles I would recommend, it's a tricky one!

[@jazzpunk]

Art Ensemble Of Chicago? Their stuff can be in...then out...within a singe piece. Problem? They have numerous albums (same goes for Sun Ra). I like AEC's FULL FORCE & NICE GUYS. Both of those may be a little too "in" for this programme, however.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

My intention was not cover accessible free jazz albums but to look at these legendary but extremely difficult albums

[@jazzpunk]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Yes...the holy trinity of FJ! :-) I guess I need to give MACHINE GUN another spin. I have been trying to think of another legendary FJ album in the same league as these 3.

[@mattf9076]

I will admit I only lasted 20 seconds into machine gun. I will take another crack at it eventually. Your ending statements reminded me of my favorite movie Synecdoche, New York.

[@jazzpunk]

I own MACHINE GUN...I have only listened to it 1x. It's tough.

[@davidrogers3875]

Okay, time for a bit of sacrilege. What about chaos over a semblance of order. This idea started back in the 1980s when I saw 23 Skidoo live. They finished with the track “The Gospel Comes To New Guinea”. The bass and drums was really tight (I love that drum pattern) and over the top was total chaos which, for me, was listenable because of the rhythm underneath. I remember that they lit a red flare and the smoke filled the room. The noise continued but when the smoke cleared the band was already gone. A couple of pieces that have given me that same feeling over the years are: Jah Wobble & Evan Parker - "Passage To Hades" and Ornette Coleman - "3 Wishes" (from Virgin Beauty). The rhythm makes your feet tap while your head explodes. Or is that just me. I have often thought that total free music may be more rewarding for the musicians than the audience. (Sorry)

[@markcapofari8419]

Great lesson Andy - helps me understand the method behind the music Mentioned suggested path and my two quid is to create the nexus from free to what we call fusion - who are those pioneers/ album examples

[@laprofeciacj]

There is a remaster of emergency it sounds a lot better than the old school version referred by Jack dejarnette. The cover is a little different it's Tony Williams wearing a suit.

[@ziegunerweiser]

how about the talking drum by king crimson unless I am mistaken there are several recordings in the great deceiver 4 cd box set

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

Fripp and Prog in general took a great deal of inspiration from Free Jazz...but it was well after the 1960s. As a matter of fact the KC era of the group you mentioned drew more from European free improvisation, especially Brotzmann and Bennink, than from Coltrane or heavy metal. The incarnation of KC from the first album drew inspiration from John Handy, Mingus, and English practitioners like Keith Tippett. Tippett released quite a few free albums on his own. Fripp asked Keith to join King Crimson but Keith declined.

[@jazzpunk]

Big fan of both the Ornette & Coltrane albums. Brotz's is a work in-progress. Been 20+ years since I bought it. Couple of early Free Jazz albums for me were trios...lot less info to process vs. a large ensemble/orchestra. :-0 SONGLINES Rashied Ali, Fred Hopkins, & Peter Brotzmann TOUCHIN' ON TRANE Rashied Ali, William Parker, & Charles Gayle ...both on the FMP label.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Another really large scale album for me is the Jazz composers Orchestra album...Larry Coryell plays some of the most extreme gyuitar playing in history on that

[@jazzpunk]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Got it! Under Michael Mantler, correct? Took me a minute to find it...Cecil Taylor, Pharoah, Roswell Rudd, Gato...I tend to forget early Gato was different than CTI-style Gato. :-)

[@richardkendall7676]

my gateway into free jazz was john zorn

[@ziegunerweiser]

For me Transition and Living Space by Coltrane were the ultimate realization of free jazz I'd have to say Power Tools by Frisell was among the more important recordingsof what I consider to be free jazz I'm a big Don Cherry and Eric Dolphy lover Been curious about Cecil Taylor, was recommended the piano drum duets of the late 70s but haven't explored them yet Some of the stuff Paul Bley did in the 70's was interesting I like Sun Ra at times also Have you read the free jazz book by Eckhart Jost ?

[@jazzpunk]

"Transition" just blows my socks off! Love it!!!

[@jazzpunk]

Is your Power Tools LIVE IN LONDON? That's the one I have. FWIW, I have Jost's book....somewhere. Read it a long time ago.

[@ziegunerweiser]

strange meeting is the only studio record anything by power tools with frisell is getting at the same thing and worth checking out, the first time I heard it I thought it was so strange but I liked it, then I found out about naked city and the stuff he did with john zorn

[@ziegunerweiser]

I wanted to say power tools is an example that goes to show that free jazz does not have to be atonal squealing loudness obnoxiousness, it can be calm and even relaxing

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

Don Cherry was extremely important in building bridges between America and the rest of the world, especially Europe, as early as 1966. Music Improvisation Company, Spontaneous Music Ensemble, AMM and ICP were fairly early in Europe, as was Derek Bailey. Soft Machine, Pink Floyd, Red Crayola, Amon Duul, Iggy and the Stooges, MC5, the Velvet Underground, the Byrds, Beatles and the Mothers all had free jazz components in their work. It was very obvious in the late 1960s early 1970s. And I know I am not mentioning everyone!

[@alexposilkin9683]

I once found an album with Don Cherry and Polish composer Krzysztof Penderecki. It wasn’t exactly the musical product I expected it to be, but I thought that was quite a pairing!

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

@@alexposilkin9683 Actions? One side was Cherry and the other was Penderecki as I recall. That entire German school (which was affiliated with the Dutch and English free jazz circles) was very open to all musics. Mani Neumeier and Jaki Liebezeit from Can came out of those gatherings and Han Bennink played with rock players often and was also a big influence on Bill Bruford. Derek Bailey improvised with Henry Cow in the UK. And more recently Yoyo Ma was watching and admiring free jazz cellists like Tristan Honsinger. My favorite story is that the Spontaneous Music Ensemble and AMM, two free improvising groups in the UK actually got record deals with two major British labels in the 1960's because Charlie Watts attended their shows. The labels thought because a Rolling Stone went to see you, you could be the next big thing! Rahsaan Roland Kirk jammed with the Mothers, Hendrix, Clapton, Bruce and members of Colosseum, and I think Don Cherry was on a Lou Reed album (as was Steve Howe!). Keith Emerson actually mentioned Cecil Taylor in an interview with the great Oscar Peterson. Most musicians at least knew of other musicians and collaboration is more frequent than one might suspect, especially in the late 1960s and early 1970s.

[@thevoid7352]

free jazz

[@stevepalmer-drums]

Interesting Andy. I met Billy Higgins in the afternoon setting up at Ronnie's B'ham then and supported him with Cedar Waltons Eastern Rebellion for 3 nights. Billy Higgins played sensitively with smile and quoted other drummers like Max Roach in his long drum solos. It was not free but it did swing. This track played by that same band Eastern Rebellion was a favourite live each night. kzbin.info/www/bejne/hGfFf5ivmK2ajZI - During that same era I got to talk with Ronnie Scott and asked him with all the drummers he had seen at his London club did he have a favourite? He thought for a short time and answered ' Billy Higgins'

[@bassmonk2920]

"Ascension" makes sense to me. Coltrane has a certain emotion logic you can follow but its exhausting.....but humans should be able to hear that.

[@HP_____]

I think you're exaggerating the difficulty of listening to Machine Gun. Most people with a background in punk rock as listeners, myself included, have a much easier time with the abrasive sound. We just enjoy the texture of it... just like life. I think this concept of texture needs to be explored more beyond melody, rhythm and harmony. Ekkehard Jost in his book FREE JAZZ exploring another element of music he terms it "energy" in describing the music of my all time favorite musician, the late Cecil Taylor. To me the most difficult listen for me is the subgenre of "fusion" or jazz rock when one of the main enjoyments of jazz is its rhythmic inventions and sophistication that once it falls into a rock rhythm but without the energy and jump factor of rock n roll it becomes unbearably dull for me, even torturous. I'm sure there are exceptions but life is short when there are old masters like Pops, Hines, Duke, Tatum, Hawkins, Young, Bird, Diz, Bud, Monk, Tristano, Rollins, Ornette, Cecil, etc and new masters like Zorn, AACM, etc... on records I much rather spend time on those or look for other genres like classical to be entertained.

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

I think you might have a point, but I would also point out that listening tolerances in the late 1960s were higher in the late 1960s were pretty high. Then everyone quaaluded out to slower, bluesier stuff around 1972. The Brotzmann records echoed the production values of ESP and Actual records.

[@ziegunerweiser]

did you guys listen to the cecil taylor max roach stuff yet ?

[@HP_____]

Andy seems to avoid discussing Cecil even when in one video recommending a Jazz Composers Orchestra, JCO, record featuring Cecil as the headliner, he didn't mention Cecil at all! Whether he likes Cecil or not, he should at least point out the main attraction for the potential listeners.

[@garygomesvedicastrology]

Cecil was playing free three years before Ornette arrived in New York. Ornette and Cecil are my reference points for free jazz.

[@HP_____]

RIP, Brötz. 😢

[@Questmetalband]

What is the difference between Avant-Garde and Free Jazz, or are they used interchangeably?

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Free Jazz is a specific approach. Avant Garde literally means 'the next step' and can be any art form push the boundaries

[@pauldenby878]

I've wanted Machine Gun for some time, next week I'm going to Berlin and I will be bringing it home with me.. can't wait to get to grips with it!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Approach with caution!!!!

[@jazzpunk]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Going thru my Brotz stuff...I have something with Brotz under Ginger Baker's name, NO MATERIAL. There is not a more apt title for an album/band than this one. If Last Exit is not "out" enough...check this one out.

[@elbib2446]

check out guitarist tisziji munoz,if you havent allready,takes it to the outer limits,like sonny sharrock on steriods

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

I'm a big fan of Munoz

[@geoffccrow2333]

I dunno how i guessed you were going to say machine gun lol. . Peter Brotz just gone in recent days RIP

[@martinbroten9467]

I must admit that free jazz has never done a lot for me. I do quite like some of the late-era Coltrane stuff (Ascension and the Live albums recorded in Seattle and Japan). Other than that…not a lot. I think that I prefer more of a freebop approach. I’ve been aware of Brotzmann for years, but it always seemed too daunting. That being said, about 15 years ago I really got into a band from Chicago called the Vandermark 5. Sort of a combination of free/avant/straight ahead - sometimes in the same song. They put out a set of live recordings called “Alchemia” that just kills…

[@HP_____]

Ken Vandermark worships Machine Gun. He also collaborated with Brotz in his tentet and various combos.

[@Pwecko]

I bought Song X by Pat Metheny and Ornette Coleman shortly after it came out in 1986. I had heard of both of them but had never heard any of their records. You had to buy records back then if you wanted to hear them. I got home, put the CD on and thought "What the hell is this?" It was virtually unlistenable. Although, being a bit of a skinflint, I did listen to it a number of times to get my money's worth, and in the hope that it would grow on me. It didn't. It was shit. I've just listened to it again to confirm that it's shit. Nobody can convince me that they really enjoy this stuff. They pretend they do in order to project an image of themselves as superior in some way, I think. Or perhaps they are a bit masochistic. I'm not against dissonance or cacophony when used effectively, as it is in some classical music, but just putting a group of musicians together and telling them to just play isn't a recipe for success. There might be some listenable free jazz out there, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to find it.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Don't listen to any of the albums in this video...they make Song X sound like Lighthouse Family

[@bassmonk2920]

Its a exploratory statement that musicians make in their art and the listener has to acknowledged its part of the journey for both of us.

[@artyfhartie2269]

I thought it was a jazz album put out by Jesus, his dad and the Holy Spirit. Mislead big time.

[@rinahall]

I just discovered anthony braxton while hanging out on youtube. I then did some research on him. In my opinion, he is certainly the biggest crook in the history of jazz. It's totally amazing that he could have such a career in the music world and have such academic positions. I mean, what is going on with the listeners, the media and the jazz community that they want us to believe that this guy is a genius? Everything about him is a problem: his instrumental technique is close to zero, his music itself is modern when it sounds like a beginner's band, his gibberish discourse about his music means absolutely nothing, but also his interviews in which he comes across as a pretentious old bigot. Please, retire and let the real artists play.

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

Check out what he is playing in unison with Chick Corea. You have to have quite an understanding of music notation and the capabilities of your instrument to do this kzbin.info/www/bejne/mWLMZJh3l811o5Y

[@rinahall]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer this is ugly

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@rinahall You need to consider the criteria by which you are judging him. In terms of him being able crook under the terms you described anyone who knows about that will see this track calls that into question. And of course what you find ugly is irrelevant here.

[@rinahall]

@@AndyEdwardsDrummer 1) I judge it according to the objective technical criteria with which any musically educated person judges musicians. 2) what a listener finds ugly or beautiful is a subjective criterion applied to each musical listening because we are humans and not robots. 3) if braxton or his fans don't want him to be judged by listeners or other musicians braxton should not record and broadcast his ''works''. Let him play in his basement and that's it!

[@AndyEdwardsDrummer]

@@rinahall so you agree that from an objective technical point of view that Chick Corea duet would require a high level of technical skill on Braxton's part? If no please explain how you think he created that part?