My Response and Decision About The Stowe Map

Based on feedback from locals, glade cutters, and other enjoyers of the terrain, I've decided pushing the Mount Mansfield Community Resource in the way I did may have been the wrong approach. Since the overall consensus surrounding this seems to be 50/50, I've decided the way to create the best good for the most amount of people is to take down my video promoting the map.
The map still exists, and can be accessed only through a link. At the suggestion of some Stowe locals, I reached out to Stowe Mountain Rescue for comment on whether or not they believe this map will help create less or more harm.

[@Skimeister2northslope]

A few quick points. The people who want instant gratification without having to do a shred of work can take a hike, both literally and figuratively. As the saying goes, the person who robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul. Obviously if a person cuts a glade he/she can't expect it to remain a secret forever. But there is a huge difference between local knowledge being spread by word of mouth and someone putting GPS coordinates out there for widespread public consumption. And there is a significant contrast between the White Mountains, where every turn is earned, and Mount Mansfield, where many of the woods shots are easily accessed side country. Finally, I am not questioning your motives, you seem like a nice guy and make some good videos, but if I may generalize, it's tempting for young people who are trying to make a name for themselves to justify their actions by couching them as a greater good and well intentioned, when in fact the ego is usually lurking somewhere in the neighborhood. Only you can make that determination.

[@extreme_ryan_delena]

@@Skimeister2northslope All valid points. I’ll offer a few counter points though. I’ve had a few people reach out to me on Instagram about the map and say they don’t feel welcome skiing backcountry in the Mansfield area because of how unwilling people are to share information. I’ve had a person ask for the map so they can understand where their kids are skiing in case they get in trouble out there. I’ve had a few people who have skied Stowe for 10-15 years reach out just because they want to know the names of some of these places they have been skiing all these years but not known. Maps benefit more than just those ‘unwilling to do work’. And at the end of the day, the mountain will never ski itself. The dense forest won’t bushwack itself. The effort, the barrier to entry and the natural filter that is the terrain itself will always call upon the skier to rise to the challenge of the mountain, but the skiers of the modern day are more interested in having access to resources to plan a route than they are at blind faith adventuring.

[@jaszendik2111]

First rule of backcountry/sidecountry skiing is go with someone who knows. This map promotes unsafe backcountry habits. A map on a phone is never a substitute for actual experience.

[@Yungplaymaker]

Thanks so much for making the map man. The gatekeepers are idiots. I can still find fresh tracks in angel food (the most well known about spot in Stowe) days after a storm. Overcrowding is not a legit concern. Unless SMR tells you it's a bad idea, keep it up.

[@extreme_ryan_delena]

True. I’ve still been able to get fresh tracks in most of these lines on the right day.

[@jayhafner1990]

I think most the negative feedback is pure selfishness. I know most of these lines but they don’t belong to me. If you want to circumvent the safety issue, you could add more detail about the safety issues…perhaps even a rating system. For example, I know where Amherst or Rock Garden are but I have no interest in ever going there.

[@extreme_ryan_delena]

@@jayhafner1990 Will do! Some of the feedback I’ve gotten included creating a rating system. It’ll take some time to work it out but I’ll get to it!

[@dylanday810]

Gatekeepers suck, I’m so tired of locals thinking they own the mountains.

[@danielz7789]

Seriously.

[@dylanday810]

@@danielz7789yes

[@patrickreilly6193]

I haven't cut any lines myself; but if I had, I would certainly think I have more of a right to that line than someone who happened to discover it because of a KZbin influencer. Regardless, I realize most casual vacationing skiers aren't going to put in the effort to reach some of this spots, so the primary issue I care about here is safety. Very curious to see what Stowe Mountain Rescue has to say on the subject.

[@dylanday810]

⁠I agree with you on the safety aspect. At the end of the day everyone is assuming the risk. As far as having more of a right to a ski line then another person, absolutely not man. Just bc you are a local, doesn’t make the mtns yours. What if you came to the wasatch and you asked some local about how to get to a certain line and they told you no.

[@patrickreilly6193]

@@dylanday810 I think there are many naive younger skiers with no backcountry experience/knowledge who assume there is minimal risk, because if they get into trouble, they will just call someone for help and get rescued. They treat the backcountry like they are in the ski resort, not realizing or acknowledging that SAR volunteers will have to put their own lives at risk in many cases to bail them out; and not understanding that rescues in technical backcountry terrain are much more complex than being dragged out of the front four woods on a sled by ski patrol. I never claimed (or even inferred) that the "mtn is mine because I'm a local". In fact, I said the opposite.. I didn't cut any of these lines, so I don't think I have as much of a right to them as the people who did. I am incredibly thankful and appreciative that many of these zones are skiable thanks to their hard work and dedication. If it weren't for these people, we wouldn't even have sidecountry to argue about.. I've been to the Wasatch on three separate occasions (Alta/Snowbird/Snowbasin/Brighton/Park City) as well as several other ski areas outside the Northeast including: JH, Palisades, Kirkwood, Whistler, CO Front Range, Red/Whitewater, Revelstoke, Chamonix, Val D'Isere/Tignes, Les Arcs, and Baqueira Beret. Whenever I travel to ski, I generally stay inbounds because I know that I'm not familiar with the terrain & conditions. If I don't have friends who are locals to show me around, I hire a guide for at least a day so I can get the lay of the land and understand potential hazards before taking on more risk. I've got a 2 week Japan trip planned for early March and I 100% plan to hire a guide because I understand researching routes on the internet is not a safe alternative. I don't ask random locals at resorts for tips/stashes; but when people ask me at Stowe/Smuggs, I am always willing to guide them in person if they seem like they can handle the terrain.

[@wholesystems]

It’s really pretty simple I think: the place isn’t yours to promote. You own a resort or golf course or whatever, promote it. You promoted an entire wild mountain that others have put it in decades to get to know and make what it is and someone publicizes all that for the masses so instead of people filtering into that space organically it just gets overrun, of course people are gonna hate that. It’s overstepping and it’s insensitive to the place and the people who have dedicated themselves to it. I say this as someone who HASNT put in the work to make old Mozo what it is today and who ends up shwacking my way into oblivion on some tours when I go there. That’s how it works for good reason. Although your map makes my life easier, it’s wrong man. You will come to understand this I am confident as you get more years under your belt but it’s hard when you’re young and ambitious. I appreciate your civility and seeming openness about the discourse but this entire thing wouldn’t be an issue if people apprenticed for a long time with locals putting their time in and understanding the limits of places. It’s about respect for place and people. The Internet makes blowing up places all too easy. We’ve lost so many already. Please. Checkout the tag responsibly campaign that Jackson had to roll out.

[@patrickreilly6193]

Had not heard of the "tag responsibly" campaign until now.. sounds like an awesome idea!

[@Shawn-wt4kh]

That's a lot of words to reframe selfishness as "responsibility" and "respect."

[@wholesystems]

@@Shawn-wt4kh only if you think everyone is entitled to all information possible about a place without putting in time to get to know a place. I think what you’re speaking of is entitlement without earning access.

[@nickdambrosia2304]

Its foolish to think that information on lines will drive people into the backcountry when there's more media going around now than there ever was glorifying BC skiing. Resources aren't going to cause more accidents. That's very flawed thinking...

[@alexpoudrier189]

Différence between of white MTN and green is may not the culture différence, but the amount of people touched by this and the amount of local rider.. but it's the same counter culture consequences for both spot

[@aaronnokaoi]

The best skier/surfers are the ones having the most fun. I've heard the same argument with surf spots. A map resource like this will not stop me from exploring the glades. People like Ryan help people like me ski safely. Gate keepers have small boto energy

[@thepenguin1337]

Ryan nice work adding the warnings -- I saved the URL and see the differences day over day

[@yhallotharlol]

Localism sucks, and it’s obvious from the comments of your original video that localism was driving a lot of the blowback. That said, knowing nothing about the area, it would be unfortunate if this resource led to some sort of access issue down the line. Not sure how realistic that is. For me that is really the only valid argument for limiting access to the resource. The rest is just locals jealously guarding their stash.

[@ttruong225]

Localism is xenophobic plain and simple. There are principles of preserving and protecting but it’s still public access stuff. There are tons of ppl who hate Dave Goodman for his book but look at the positive attentions it’s brought to backcountry ski industry as well.

[@patrickreilly6193]

Thank you for reconsidering your decision and taking a step in the right direction. Very curious to hear what Stowe Mountain Rescue has to say once they get back to you. If you don't end up taking down the map, I would hope that once this situation is resolved, that you will take this video down as well to "leave no trace" of this map existing. Just wanted to add a quick comment on the Whites/Presidentials vs Mansfield.. In my mind, these two areas are totally different from a backcountry safety perspective, which is why you get two totally different types of community responses. The Whites/Presidentials cover a much larger area than Mansfield and cannot be accessed by a chairlift. This is a self-selection mechanism that prevents a majority of inexperienced skiers or skiers unwilling to put in work to get their turns. On the other hand, Stowe & Smuggs are indisputably top 5 ski areas in the Northeast and attract many casual vacationing skiers from major cities in the Northeast who assume it is safe to ski beyond the resort boundaries because "there aren't any avalanches in the East". Danger can be just as high on Mansfield as it is in the Whites, but ease of access to serious terrain out of bounds can be accessed by a much greater number of inexperienced skiers, which makes it much more likely for backcountry safety incidents to occur. This also explains why there are more SAR operations on Mansfield than there are in the Whites (even though there are probably more deaths in the Whites due to remoteness and generally higher avy risk).

[@jamesenter2095]

You made a map. It’s ok to share it. You should be able to share it. This information is available online. Are they going to have j&e production delete their blog? Or have mybadvideos delete his KZbin channel? I am not surprised that people illegally cutting glades into the national park land don’t want to share them. A bunch of selfish jerks

[@jamesenter2095]

Reading the comments on the old video say “this is going to open the flood gates” and “ this is going to invite people to try to ski these lines”. People don’t want this info out there because they know what will happen. More people will come and ski these lines. Backcountry skiing is inherently dangerous and injuries are inevitable. If more people do it more people will get hurt and will need to get rescued. It’s just math. More information is NOT a bad thing. More interest is NOT a bad thing. If you deleted your map people will still get hurt skiing in the area and need to get rescued. This may actually improve safety as there will be more infrastructure and interest. This may drive people to be more interested in maintaining the trails. A lot of people trying to make you feel guilty or trying to pin you with blame. Seems silly at best and disingenuous at worst

[@patrickreilly6193]

Mount Mansfield is not a national park

[@matthewhoffman2006]

Man oh man, gatekeepers are the worst. I ski a lot at Stowe every season and like any mountain it is ski at your own risk. Stowe is one of those places that I have skied at where I know there is so much in the backcountry and it is just not the easy to discover. As a follower of your channel and a east coast local maps like this are the type of things that we need! Anyone can look at your channel and see what type of terrain they are getting themselves into, along with what type of skill level you need.

[@ct_steeze]

Maybe you are capable of looking at a video on Ryan's channel and correctly analyzing risks and ability required to ski in some of these areas, but I think its a poor/dangerous assumption to make that a few high school kids on one of their two ski weekends for the year, are capable of honestly assessing their own abilities and evaluating risk. Especially when they are highly influenced by the glory of social media

[@thepenguin1337]

I think this miss estimates the danger -- I am pretty well traveled in the backcountry (did a season in Jackson Hole), have skied stowe a TON, and grew up ski racing and I have run into all sorts of bad situations in these areas. Once falling head down into a hole and needing someone to dig me out (thank god I was not last in the group as who knows what wld have happened), getting stuck in rivers multiple times, and almost catching a tip on a root in one of the choke points in planets that wld have been b a d. So yah "anyone" can see what lvl of skill you need... but from personal experience there is a bit more to all of this

[@whymoo1]

Can you do one for mad river valley? Not because I don't know where the lines are but because I want to know their names 😂

[@extreme_ryan_delena]

@@whymoo1 I’ll probably find a home for the sugarbush stuff eventually, but I doubt I know much other than the popular ones.

[@wholesystems]

Please NO.

[@extreme_ryan_delena]

@ Don’t worry it’s not happening. Not only do I not know enough to even begin making that map, but I wouldn’t want to anger a different valley of people lol. Back in the fatmap days I had Church and such on there, but not much else.

[@50french23]

Very thoughtful consideration, you’re the man Ryan

[@sugarbush14]

I used to be a VT skier but have since moved to JH. I’ve really enjoyed your videos, but this “I’m doing it for the community” seems a bit disingenuous. I have no dog in this hunt, but to produce something on such a scale seems counterintuitive. I suspect you’re partly doing this for your ego. This kinda reminds me of a surf line up, or NHL hockey enforcers. There is a certain self policing that needs to take place (people not sharing on a mass scale). The fact is, if your map is a huge success, overcrowding takes place and ruins the experience for everyone. Sad, but true. Now if people put in the effort like you have and crowing takes place, so be it. Telling a few buddies where the stash is, is one thing, producing a map is different. I think you made a mistake. But, I do love your content!!

[@extreme_ryan_delena]

@@sugarbush14 First and foremost I appreciate you clarifying that you’re a supporter of the content. Secondly, I’ll have to respectfully disagree here. I guess I fail to see what creating a project like this would do to serve my ego. I ran into the same criticism with adding climbing routes in Maine to mountain project. People came at me and said I was doing this for recognition, to which I replied, adding a route to mountain project is not the same as bragging that you sent the route. Lots of people have added routes to mountain project they have climbed but not sent. In my mind this is similar. In no way is this going to paint me as some epic skier. What you see is what you get here, it’s a map. And only reason I can see to publish a map is if you believe it will be of use to people. Now, does it make me feel good when people reach out and tell me they appreciate my map, or that they believe it to be high quality. Yes, it does. Could that satisfy my ego, certainly. I don’t claim to be a monk that’s immune to all forms of cognitive and social dynamics. However, I wouldn’t cite ego as my primary reason for creating and publishing this resource. Like anything else I published, I did it because I thought it would benefit the people in the receiving end.

[@PilgrimVanBuilds]

I’ve known Ryan for a year plus now, I built the van he’s currently standing in for him. I highly doubt an ego has anything to do with this. Ryan’s one of the most laid back guys I’ve met and constantly posting on his Instagram and FB with open invitations for people to get outside with him in all different sports. I can understand that putting out a map could result in overcrowding, but I also think gatekeeping it isn’t the best. And also letting people put in the effort of finding it on their own can result in more rescues of people potentially. At least with a map they have some basic understanding of what they’re getting themselves into before they go down something they can’t handle.

[@filipjanku2809]

I actually think it was a terrific idea. I really like your work. Haters don't own the mountains providing it is not a private land. You did nothing wrong.

[@extreme_ryan_delena]

Appreciate your perspective

[@andymagruder8182]

Your track maps and descriptions make people safer. How many times have I seen a ski track disappear down some impossibly tight rabbit hole in the trees and wondered "Did that person have any idea where he was going and should I try to follow?"

[@danielz7789]

How is this not gatekeeping? Maps for national parks and for so many other outdoor mountains and trails are public and freely available. Responsibility of safety is always on the person going out. Otherwise restrict selling backcountry gear because those newbies can get hurt... So pathetic. All of you cant complain about vail owning every mountain after you guys can't even share a simple map.

[@thepenguin1337]

Maybe you can just go to the ski mountain, start looking around yourself, meet people in the community and put the time and effort in like others have?

[@wholesystems]

Gatekeeping is controlling people. And limiting access. Gatekeeping would be obscuring a place intentionally or otherwise trying to keep people out. It’s not the opposite of promoting a place.

[@vinnyg7065]

Really similar to how some perceive spot burning in fishing. At the end of the day it’ll always be 50/50 whether or not people like it. Unfortunately/fortunately for you a guidebook you could sell would probably be best. Check with the writers of the 50 descents if they got any flack for writing their book.

[@IAmTheSilent1]

Ryan, I appreciate you for your maps as well as the videos. Your entries on Fatmap was the spark for me to wonder what else is out there to explore on Mansfield. I studied the maps forever even though my skills weren't quite ready for me to tackle it. This year, with the epic snowfall, I decided to take on Angel Food and the bowls and OMG, it's been nothing short of amazing. When I got in there, I knew exactly where to go and what to expect. Overcrowding was a non-issue and I found fresh lines days after the storm. I couldn't have done it without you. So please keep it up!

[@extreme_ryan_delena]

@@IAmTheSilent1 Thank you for the comment. It always warms my heart to hear about the adventures people have out there! And yes I’ve found similar. No matter how many people head out that way, there always seems to be a place to find freshies

[@mashedtaters1033]

Honestly, this map is incredibly helpful. I have been coming to Stowe for years, yes I’m am not a local. I have been trying to challenge myself more in snowboarding over the past year or so for a goal of a future snowboard trip and was looking for better terrain to do so. These were the lines I was looking for in a way to prepare myself. So yes, I am not a local but I am interested in riding these lines to enjoy more of snowboarding and backcountry. As long as there’s people like me that benefit from this, then who cares. Why should anybody in ski or snowboard discourage someone from wanting more than just resort riding? Do it safe and that’s all that matters. Or maybe being more open as locals to give back to the community and maybe link up or run an event with friends for people who want in? Make some money off it or just do it for the love of the sport? Seems like there is a lot of animosity to non locals but cmon. You don’t OWN those spots. I know you have a deep meaningful connection with those areas, and I get it, I really do. But don’t be so greedy where it makes people wanna hang up the gear because they just don’t feel so connected with it any longer.

[@extreme_ryan_delena]

Appreciate your perspective. It’s one I share. I truly believe in the map as something that can be helpful, I chose to dial back my approach since I recognized being a good steward also means respecting the locals. Even if your beliefs differ on what the best course of action is. I’m glad you’re using this information to be better prepared!

[@mashedtaters1033]

@ hopefully you don’t ever pull the map but if you do I appreciate you for doing this. Many won’t ever agree but I feel this is a good thing. Plus. Anyone who is truly interested in these spots should definitely start with the “greenest” runs and learn when you need to turn back. That’s the hardest thing to do but I have always sworn if it ever gets too uncomfortable in a negative way, then I’m outta there. I’ll hike out if I have to.

[@patrickreilly6193]

@extreme_ryan_delena Has Stowe Mountain Rescue gotten back to you yet?

[@extreme_ryan_delena]

I’ve been checking my email daily and they have not returned my message

[@cam_ca973]

As a local, mad bummed I didn’t get that map before you took the video down :(

[@colinaina2561]

Localism and gatekeeping has prevailed.

[@JoeThornFreedom]

Stop with the gate keeping. I live in Toronto Canada, and booked a trip to Stowe, Vermont just for the opportunity to hit some of these lines. I have to drive seven hours and pay $.69 on the dollar in order to ski at Stowe. Enough with the gatekeeping everyone.

[@JoeThornFreedom]

On a sidenote, I don’t have a copy of the link to the map, so now when I do go there this March, I will be accessing most of this area from memory and other videos that simply just show the Line. You think people accessing back country can be dangerous? People are going to do it regardless and now they’re going at it blind.

[@thepenguin1337]

Joe you can always go to Jay Peak ... its closer and has the same situation going on

[@JoeThornFreedom]

@the penguin I looked into J Peak, but their mountain facility with the waterpark is completely booked up. My son‘s only 3 1/2 so I need to go somewhere that has other things to do than just skiing. I personally plan on skiing every day I’m there Which is why I’m bringing along his grandparents to entertain him when he’s not skiing. Stowe was the only place I could find lodging with the ability to cancel one week before the trip. Good option to have when planning a ski trip East Coast in March. Plus, Stowe has far more Things to do for the grandparents when not skiing. The other reason I chose Stowe was for the chance at some easily accessible backcountry. I’ve spent hours watching videos and then trying to map those locations with satellite imagery. I’m confident enough I’ll find a few backcountry runs on Mount Mansfield.

[@80sRadDad]

Don’t cave man, I respected you more before you caved

[@TheMooser1978]

How do we get access to the link for the map? Are you sharing still?

[@Vitae-Studios]

He said you can message him direct

[@keVINlizzo]

A map is a bad idea. People will get hurt or need rescue or worse.

[@Biff_3729]

Thank you for the thoughtful presentation and the hours spent exploring and translating print into digital. As an introvert, let us unite, in isolation, away from each other with the friendly wave when passing.

[@vinnyg7065]

Really similar to how some perceive spot burning in fishing. At the end of the day it’ll always be 50/50 whether or not people like it. Unfortunately/fortunately for you a guidebook you could sell would probably be best. Check with the writers of the 50 descents if they got any flack for writing their book.