My Response to Twitch.

[@Zedrinbot]

I think for me, the most telling example from this fiasco was the following: Baalbuddy was doing a stream where he wound up getting banned for drawing a rendition of the Statue of David. It would adhere to the most conservative definition of Artistic Nudity that you could use. He got banned for 3 days for adult content. Marina, meanwhile, one of the examples at 2:37, had fully nude art with a full on bush out up on her stream and was doing the 'topless meta' thing with her vtuber model. She got banned for only 1 day, and her reason WASN'T for adult content, according to her Twitter: it was due to her vtuber outfit. So according to twitch, an encyclopedia-esque rendition of a statue doesn't qualify for artistic nudity, but an anime girl with a hairy bush being used to advertise an armpit fetish does.

[@RubberRoss]

Sounds about right.

[@Collixar]

That's twitch for ya...

[@jpshy1130]

Wooo love twitch

[@seg162]

The harder their weiners are, the less severe the ban is

[@alexplaysandedits2356]

@@seg162 Yep.

[@BurgerSliderMan]

Ross really taking off the rubber for this one.

[@Bann-wd40]

Thats crazy 💀

[@Pyxaanthal]

this comment made me feel ill

[@Jedidiah_Everton]

No comment 💀

[@Retrolizer]

Clever girl...

[@lynnix2595]

Ain't no way 💀

[@StereoTyp0]

Thanks for making professors look at Vinny's Wattatas.

[@RubberRoss]

SHIT. We forgot to include it. They were so confused, but just laughed.

[@BerzklTheDragon]

​@@RubberRossI just shat my pants 🗿

[@BerzklTheDragon]

Alr, let's face it, you liked this comment because Ross replied?

[@ryeply]

@@RubberRoss we demand the Wattamelon cut

[@WGY_Games]

Wait, what!?

[@skoobzkb]

The fact that you got college level professors to discuss this made this video incredibly interesting to watch especially after seeing things unfold over the last week.

[@Gaia_BentosZX5]

This is also incidentially where grifters have fucked around exploiting the suffering of those banned, to finding out the moment you start investigating after the dust settles. Thieves thrive on regurgitated misinformation. Now much like the Hbomberguy video, they are about to find out with someone who actually draws and streams on twitch getting to the bottom of artistic nudity.

[@KleinesStein]

Lots of college level professors tend to be super chill like this. They are willing to use their expertise to analyse very dumb things cause it’s funny and it lets them use their education to the full extent

[@nandabun]

I didn't even know it was happening and I'm still entertained. Then again, it's Ross, of course it's good.

[@tahlialysse]

If Ross, a successful streamer/youtuber/artist, was able to use his resources to talk to some professors about this for a video, you'd think that Twitch, a significantly MORE successful large corporation could have swung getting some folks with expertise on board for helping to manage this type of situation...

[@AlexSwePR]

adverts..

[@arlowa]

Thank you again for having us on, Ross! It was super fun talking to you all!!

[@jamzee_]

To reenforce the stupidity, Baalbuddy, a famous artist, got banned for 3 days for drawing the statue of david, whereas Marina was on stream for over 8 hours! And got a shorter ban!

[@gaminghero4747]

What the hell!? Baalbuddy is such a cool artist and doesn't deserve this

[@user-jw2it4qf2r]

@@gaminghero4747 His ban was lifted the fastest out of any of them, at least, so *someone* saw how stupid it was, but the fact it happened at all is still just abysmal.

[@rompevuevitos222]

They already showed that twitch mods are a group of children‐brained reddit users that have nothing else going on in their lives. They probably do not even follow any sort of standards and simply interpret rules at will

[@KaylaRequiem]

I bet anything they are using AI recognition equipped bots to hand out bans.@@user-jw2it4qf2r

[@bryantf2509]

twitch staff were too distracted working one handed while watching her

[@CaptainTechnicalityLP]

I think it's obvious that any artistic nudity distinction is always doomed to fail (from a rules enforcement standpoint) if you need a room of professors to even approach a definition. It's never going to be something that can be clearly delineated in a set of rules in a way that all the users can clearly understand the boundaries of and follow. Of course, a lot of people were intentionally flouting the rules, but even if they weren't, it would have been a disaster of enforcement. Either allow nudity or don't, honestly.

[@Gemini-Lion]

I have to agree. If you want the rules so be more solid and easier to properly enforce, then it should be a matter of “is nudity allowed?” instead of “what kinds of nudity are allowed?”

[@Pihsrosnec]

I feel like there are more options, they just have to be clear on what is and isn't allowed. if they allowed nudity but banned specified sexual acts that would be pretty clear, if they only allowed nudity for specific parts of the body that would be less vague than twitch currently is regarding nudity to my understanding. the problem is twitch only wants the praise for allowing artistic nudity without the hardship of actually defining what is and isn't allowed, instead expecting users and moderation alike to simply act in the spirit of the rules instead of having actually clear rules.

[@sinteleon]

And even if you could, remember it took a room of professors to even define it. How do you enforce such a policy in any reasonable capacity?

[@cyrusunderscore7315]

I think they could figure it out. Sitting down with artists and making lists of specific things that are/aren't allowed would be a great start, like erect penises aren't allowed/flaccid ones are, penetrative sex acts are never allowed. Even making a few things like that clear would be a huge help to everyone. The problem is they are using vague, culturally varied words like "nudity" and "sexual". There are people that believe that bare shoulders are sexual and there are cultures where exposed chests aren't considered nudity. You gotta be specific.

[@bagelisdead]

art itself is subjective so of course artistic nudity will also be subjective. even the room of professors had slightly differing opinions on what could or what couldn't be considered artistic nudity and had different methods of gauging that distinction. not to mention, with just how bad twitch is at enforcing their rules in general, i don't know how they thought this was going to go over well.

[@sirflimflam]

The one part I find more frustrating than funny about this whole thing was I saw a someone drawing what you could only describe as "artistic nudity". It was literally like a Michelangelo statue style picture. Of course there's going to be a small dong on it. Eventually they got banned with all the rest. If that wasn't the epitome of "artistic nudity" what was then? Cause if you roll the rules back, it's a pretty schmucky move to ban literally anyone who had nudity at all.

[@atomicnumber202]

Also, it can be considered heroic nudity, but those (now that I think of it) might be the same thing-

[@r3doctave657]

That was Baalbuddy drawing the statue of David

[@vivian-alexandrarivers897]

I think I'll coin the phrase, "There's a fine but significant line between Artistic Nudity and Artistic Lewdity."

[@thelivingglitch1371]

Someone frame this.

[@WGY_Games]

Hippity hoppity, your phrase is now my property!

[@ryofox493]

Alright, that's it. I'm stealing your tongue, cause i desperately with I could come up with stuff like that.

[@vivian-alexandrarivers897]

@@ryofox493 No, I need that for teasing stream chat!

[@Ech0Chamber]

Good statement.

[@_NoDrinkTheBleach]

As someone who has done artistic nude photography for the better part of 15 years, I will say that some things will never be art to some people. And I mean that in a puritanical way and some-people-will-literally-get-off-to-anything way. I spent a lot of years deleting crude comments off my work, and spent a similar amount of time defending the honor of my collaborators from people who said they were going to hell. This half baked move by Twitch was only ever going to have one outcome. Had it been in the works for months, I'm sure they could have figured out categories and content warnings that actually functioned the way they should have. Just letting the inmates run wild with it for a weekend was always going to fail.

[@enkays_den]

Twitch TOS will revert society back to the "ankle shaming" era

[@tdelioncourt1268]

Diplomats from the emirates ask European countries to cover the naked statues when they visit our presidential palaces. I'm taking this exemple but also Lisa from Blackpink made a show at Crazy Horse in france which is a well respected place here but in Asia she got sl*tshamed a LOT. AND zero footage as come out, just 2 pics, people just thinking she has danced there is enough to cancel her.

[@TeamOmega27]

"some things will never be art to some people" That's the truth. My mother refuses to believe digital art is real art. She thinks its like taking a picture, so maybe she doesn't think photography is not real art. oof. So, yeah, you just gotta let those people believe that and not try to convince them otherwise. It's not worth the energy.

[@doodlesyoru2108]

The puritanical way and the... odd... way... The Venn diagram between them is almost completely a circle.

[@tpfoxCastro]

@@enkays_den Unless you make tons of money on bath tub streams, if you get money you are unstoppable

[@carterowens2522]

"is this twerking plagiarism?" 10/10 sentence

[@cosmosofinfinity]

The jiggle at frame 32 is patented

[@seg162]

You didn't cite that bussing down

[@yaboiEchogaming]

“They stole those butts”

[@panda_instinct]

What baffles me about this story more than anything is how Twitch keeps making these sudden changes/announcements/decisions that always backfire. Last one i remember making big rounds was the "sponsored content" that everyone hated and they gave up on it because of the backlash and streamers threatening to leave. It seems like they keep making these decisions without consulting the people who actually use Twitch, both streamers and viewers.

[@Kyosumari]

They did. Testers and focus groups were claiming they warned twitch long before these changes rolled out about the pros and cons on it and how badly a sudden and seemingly "have at it" would go.

[@The_Queen_Chrysalis]

pretty much every industry/company/even political institutions are all so out of touch and listening to these "fresh out of business school" young adults that all got told to basically do "focus groups" for everything, but they never seem to sample the demographic they're supposed to be catering to or serving, and end up making these decisions that leaves everyone else scratching their heads and asking "who did they ask? because it wasn't us."

[@poro9084]

oh right - wasnt there something about sponsoring being able to be only a small bit of screen?

[@ZainKaneko]

@@poro9084 yeah, something like a sponsorship logo or whatever could only take up a certain percentage of the screen which ended up being really small and that you couldn't do any baked in sponsorship advertisements (ads that twitch didn't control themselves)

[@patu8010]

It seems to me like they don't really care. They'll just see what happens. They can always roll it back.

[@edawg9108]

The thing that bothers me most personally about them adding nudity, yes even the proper artistic nudity, is that the site is only 13+. They could very easily just make a separate category (or even a whole new site) for 18+ art/content where ALL of these things would be completely acceptable and then everything would have just been completely accepted and not been a disaster

[@lilmrmagoo]

they had a system that was susposed to only allow people 18+ but I think it just didn't work.

[@Kyosumari]

Everyone recommending this as an option doesn't understand Twitch and streaming platforms/advertisers on a fundamental level. Not only would this then SPLIT their userbase, a ludicrously dumb idea, it would also get very little active sponsorships and advertiser engagement, which is how streamers make the most of their money. Just properly block mature content from being shown to minors, and properly moderate access to tags. Its not that hard. They have the resources.

[@starlingifyouevencare]

Every single social media platform is 13+, including twitter, which is full of adult content and content creators. Which is fine bc they have policies for tagging adult content and accounts in order to separate them from general audiences. Creating adult-only spaces on social media and properly enforcing them does more to protect children than banning adult content

[@4F0xSake]

Is your arguement that under 18s shouldnt even be allowed into museums or look at the staue of david?

[@Darticus42]

@@KyosumariBoth of the things you mentioned are infamously difficult content moderation techniques (to do well), especially once you consider that minors do lie about that and that filtering nuances of language is hard. Also, I forget the relevant laws or precedent in the US but, ironically, the more effort they spend trying to appropriately moderate content, the more responsibility they gave to not get it wrong. Goes from being treated simply as a platform for facilitating communication, to a platform the company has implictly admitted responsibility to curate.

[@JuliaJulia-vh4xc]

When you said you brought college professors to look at the twitch bans I absolutely dreaded the response but then I watched the rest of the video and remembered most college professors (in my experience, going to community college) are chill as hell. I’m glad everyone was really open minded about the art and artists and provided useful insight.

[@ryanizer11]

I’ve never officially gone to one but I’ve toured one and met art professors I can say the people and schools are very calm and inclusive people that like to experiment with new concepts and ideas they are cool people 😎. Even outside art colleges some professors are just as amazing I’ve had great engineering, psychology and art professors

[@kjj26k]

I've met some bad professors, but for the most part higher educators really are the best of us. Not just for brains but also for soul.

[@MetaBro]

Seeing all the professors all agree the funny pp is art is so funny, glad to see a sense of humor from these guys

[@anak4444]

What an awesome idea to involve art professors and tackle some serious questions on something both serious and inherently hilarious.

[@GentleIceZ]

I really appreciate this video because my biggest issue with this fiasco was no one was being normal about it. On one side were the people trying to exploit this, and the other people trying to parody it or make fun of twitch. And so my take away was "why can't you people be normal about nudity?!" So hearing all the college professors talk normally and intelligently about nudity (especially Jordan at 6:01) was just so cathartic

[@DAVID-ANDERSON]

and yet when these Twitch streamers account gets banned the streamers complain that they were "following the guideline" yet not realizing they're the ones who exploit the guidelines and ruin it for everyone

[@uhrguhrguhrg]

human monke brain go awooga when it see badonkas genuinely, even if the nudity is artistic, there will be people behaving all weird about it

[@Pihsrosnec]

​@@uhrguhrguhrgyou're not wrong, but the problem there is the people being weird not the artistic nudity. some people are aroused by handcuffs, that doesn't mean any depiction of handcuffs should be considered sexual content

[@uhrguhrguhrg]

@@Pihsrosnec yes, but the amount of people who'd be aroused by nudity is disproportionally larger

[@flyingtoast27]

I think a very key part of this problem was, this change was rolled out as soon as it was announced

[@skipper-morgan]

The idea to bring all of these amazing academics into this discussion on "what counts as artistic nudity" as a follow up on Twitch is genuinely fantastic and insightful, I was especially interested in talking about the difference between nudity as expression versus sexual gratification! I'm really glad Ross decided to make this video since both nudity and artistic nudity have been pretty well enforced on many big social media sites, and Twitch suddenly allowing it on their site was kinda like dropping a pipe bomb in a paint bucket since they introduced these new terms that landed in a really grey area, but with the outpouring of people trying out showing nudity on the site, they kind of backpedaled into a black and white enforcement of the rules. That was a great comment from Amber at 20:14 too, "anytime a website makes a policy change about nudity, be it Tumblr or Onlyfans or whatever, it always blows up, so I'm confused why they didn't think this wasn't going to be a hot potato", kind of really encapsulating Twitch on how they make certain decisions that don't communicate with the site's creators. Anyway, this video made me genuinely happy since the discussion was thoughtful, talked about art and NSFW artists in a light-hearted way and never once put anyone down! Well done Ross :)

[@Chaoshand]

I didn't even know about half of the things people tried to do and it's just ridiculous how quickly Twitch tries to monetize on things not normally allowed on the site and then backpedals so hard they gave people whiplash

[@LittleAlternativeGirl]

I saw the post you made on Twitter asking for stuff for this video and OH MY GOD! It was WILD. The worst part was not only were people just getting randomly banned and hate raided by bots, but these people kinda ruined having artistic nudity for everyone. I'm pro-sex workers and erotic artists but most of the ones I follow don't stream on twitch but other sites for their spicy content.

[@Tukenfarben]

I'm glad I got to see Buffpup's raging dongus live. I firmly lay the blame on Twitch and its unclear rules. People will claim "Artistic Nudity" is clear because they think about the sculpture of David, but there are lots of art from back in the day that is Classical, but still sexual.

[@fedweezy4976]

Exactly, there's a reason Aphrodite/Venus is always depicted as nude. The woman is supposed to be sexy, and they used nudity to evoke that sexual aspect of her. Most "artistic nudity" has something to do with either love or sex, and thats why this policy was dumb from the start. Just make 18+ tags or something.

[@danielhavoc889]

I feel like the distinction that everyone seems to not make is, when saying the phrase "artistic nudity", artistic doesn't necessarily mean "in the form of art", it most often is used as a synonym for "tasteful" since photography and acting performances can certainly qualify as art.

[@ExlhkA]

Australian man shows collage professors straight up NSFW for 24 minutes

[@frameoverdose]

erm, akhshualy, it's spelt "college" not "collage"

[@starlingifyouevencare]

Artistic nudity is not and has never been fully separated from eroticism and sexuality. I feel like people treat erotic/pornographic art like a modern invention, which is completely inaccurate.

[@spycenrice8108]

The thing about this is that so many artist show the art of love and sex and the emotion of some themes behind eroticism and how it affects our culture. What happens when an artist depicts the effects of assault on a woman by depicting her body in sexually explicit positions with disturbing imagery. Art is meant to invoke emotion creatively. Drawing a woman with her titties out in a suggestive tone meant to elicit sexual gratification is not artistic nudity. It’s artistic lewdity, drawing women’s traumatized bodies is artistic nudity, however. I think it purely depends on intend, and I think you can, to some extent, see the intent within the drawing.

[@myboatforacar]

​​@@spycenrice8108I would say your second example is both. But then, I stubbornly refuse to see suggestiveness meant to elicit sexual interest or gratification as necessarily a bad thing.

[@starlingifyouevencare]

@@spycenrice8108some of the greatest nudes in history were primarily created to illicit sexual gratification. Artists and patrons have always been h0rny about their subject matter. Artist intent is only one lens through which to analyze a piece, and it’s ultimately a pretty limiting one. I can set out to create an artwork that’s free from my unconscious biases, prejudices, sexual ideals, etc. That doesn’t mean that I will succeed.

[@zensuufu]

Yes, and it never should be fully separated.

[@zensuufu]

@@spycenrice8108 This is subjective. No matter how you try to spin it, both examples are artistic nudity by definition. Definitions in themselves are subjective, but if we are being literal, if it is artwork that contains nudity, it is artistic nudity.

[@ProbsNotABot]

I was at that stream that night. It was a super fun stream!!! We were just chatting with Ross, as he *very* slowly drew the thumbnail, and we kept peeking in at that art tab every once in while. I remember stumbling across loli hentai at one point.

[@Raida7]

I would like more of these, just professional analysis and discussion on *content* because it's not full of outrage and aggressive opinion, but rather everyone enjoying it and considering other perspectives 😊 And it's hilarious

[@bunchflttrsndnumbrs]

“That’s art as hell.” My new favorite quote.

[@evytvy]

Twitch is crazy for allowing that kinda stuff, and people hate how strict KZbin is

[@RealityButWorse]

Well, I guess for twitch, more people spend money there, not many rampant kids. In youtube, there are still a lot of questionable videos, but because of kids being a prominent part of the platform, youtube needs to be a bit more strict.

[@evytvy]

⁠@@RealityButWorseI get that. However it’s a bit excessive when people talk about it. I agree that there’s a lot of questionable content. I don’t think it’s completely the kids fault though. I understand kids wanting to be big KZbinrs when they grow up, I bet everyone’s been there, but maybe concern about the parents.

[@Cynnabuns]

I just dont get it. There's platform's FOR this stuff like onlyfans....why does it need to be here

[@RealityButWorse]

Thank you for the new viewpoint, @evytvy !

[@glaxyl]

​@@Cynnabunsa lot of people used the "naked" streams to divulgate their onlyfans and a lot of people gained huge money from this

[@swolby9230]

"Would you consider this twerking plagiarism?" is a wild question.

[@kamuyking551]

legitimately, the fastest way to make NSFW content a problem online, is to censor it. bear with me, I swear this makes sense. I think tumblr was a great case study, because when people were allowed to post fully sanctioned NSFW, things were actually fairly uncontroversial. people on tumblr knew that NSFW content was on the platform, but they also knew that some people wanted to see it, and other people didn't. so there was kind of a known social code of conduct for tagging things, which was both polite and practically incentivized. if you tagged your NSFW stuff properly, people who wanted to see it could find it more easily, _and_ people who wanted to avoid it could block it. if someone frequently posted untagged NSFW, you could still choose to unfollow them if that wasn't what you wanted to see... and often enough, if a blog was doing that, it was probably because it was a blog that _only_ posted NSFW to begin with. if they weren't tagging it, that might even be because they didn't want it to show up in the tags and get seen by the widest possible audience. keeping your presence small was always an option. and on the flip side, if bots were clogging the tags and making it hard for the userbase to find the stuff they actually wanted, the userbase would start heavily reporting them all on their own. they were incentivized to do so... they wanted this system to function better for their own needs. tumblr could be decently self governing, because people generally wanted this system to work in a way that was convenient to them. all of this is to say that, when a platform like twitch gives the userbase an inch, they'll try to take a mile, because large mainstream platforms really don't give anyone sanctioned tools for responsibly posting NSFW online anymore. but people still want to. they'll jump at the chance to post NSFW, even if all they have to work with is a space that's still scrubbed clean, and has no designated place to put NSFW in the existing structure. and of course, I'm not trying to paint this like it was all perfect sunshine and roses... but neither is any other kind of posting. an asshole is an asshole, no matter what they're being an asshole about. but if you know how to respect tag etiquette, then you can identify the assholes in your midst pretty easily too. basically, if you try to restrict people, they just get sneaky. and if they're being sneaky, then you'll have just as much trouble utilizing tools to find what they're doing, as they're hoping to cause for the website that's trying to ban what they're doing. just give people the tools to label things properly! a clear system of categories will be used! vague allusions to what might or might not be okay to post just results in this huge mess.

[@victorfunnyman]

I agree a lot on that, it would be more fair if they knew what was allowed and made sure to show what they're showing such that it is explicitised, and can then be debunked if misused!

[@kamuyking551]

@@victorfunnyman exactly. to go a bit broader... the real problem is that the internet isn't diverse enough anymore. we used to have a much larger variety of social media platforms, which had different functions, purposes, and target demographics. like, there used to be a lot more websites that were for kids, specifically. stuff like that was important, because then people could make choices about where they wanted to be online, based on what they wanted to do. and you could have whole websites that were more geared towards adults, and mature content, because the kids had other places to be in the online world. but nowadays, people's online activity is being funneled into fewer and fewer major websites, all of which have to keep themselves advertiser friendly in order to stay operational at their current scale, and all of which have to assume that every demographic is using their services. and rather than trying to create compartmentalization for those demographics, websites will just cater to the most PG common denominator and nix every other kind of content that they don't want to figure out the logistics of hosting. like, what are the good websites for sharing and hosting NSFW content for free these days? if they exist at all, they're pretty obscure... who would you even find if you went there? it's a problem because adults make up a large portion of the online users of these sites, and they want to be adults online. but there really aren't platforms that are willing to give them the option.

[@victorfunnyman]

@@kamuyking551 I mean for those last parts, we know of a few websites that can host the art for instance (we often joke about them too), but I do agree that maybe we can narrow the number of websites, but make sure they broaded then compartimentalise the content, such that children get content for children, teens for teens, adults for adults, or general to general, and all that jazz for instance, youtube has youtube kids, but I do admit the normal youtube is general and there is no plan of hosting adult stuff unless only suggestive (for instance the animations by telepurte, or even vivziepop's shows) for discord, there's ability to tag channel as nsfw, and it blocks immediately the people who are under 18, and it's already kinda based on fandom-compartimentalisation twitch... well, it does have some tags, but does not really host too much specific things either, it's usually important to touch multiple subjects than to stay on one unless it is itself very broad (and streamable!) tumblr is a mess, the mess we can enjoy twitter is kinda dangerous for that kinda thing, since nsfw artists don't have a way to block out people who are too young, or sometimes recommendations in the for-you can advertise a bit of the wrong stuff too newgrounds is absolutely awesome for rating, tagging, and all that, but maybe has less fandom/compartimentalisation abilities otherwise we can say many things about many sites, and you're partly right but there's a bit of wrong and a bit of misrepresentation there

[@bryanpierce1111]

Ross is correct. You need to be specific in the types/styles of the content you want. Now, Twitch will need to evaluate each ban that was following the rules. If they don't, Twitch will get negative reviews in the media.

[@BlueEyes274]

I feel like this banwave from their vague "rule changes" was more a culling trap.

[@H0wes]

This is actually such an intersting video, the fact you got college level professors to discuss such a subject is actually amazing, idk what twitch where thinking was going to happen when they pushed these TOS, but it sure was interesting thats for sure

[@Dyundu]

Professors are responsible for not just teaching, with all the grading, advising, and long hours there, but arduous research and professional creative activity, and service to their institutions, and all of that equates to long hours, and a lot more stress. It’s a tough and often thankless job. They deserve a lot of respect. I know from the looks on their faces and from my own experiences in the academy (education is my field) that you’ve given them a huge bit of levity and fun that will be remembered as a highlight of their professional lives for a very long time. Providing fun is a form of respect. Ross, I salute you. o7

[@DragonAdjacent]

NSFG Not safe for grandma

[@BerzklTheDragon]

LMAO BEST COMMENT EVER!

[@2ArtistsEXPlain]

Thanks for inviting me to chat. Never thought I'd get to talk to a group of my peers about this topic in particular...!

[@SkyRune83]

@22:18 -- That's actually really heartwarming that Jordan got to meet one of his inspirations!

[@G.GlovePoP]

Even if this is days later I still find this policy interesting and bonkers

[@macinsocks6960]

M*rina, one of the worst offenders only got a 24 hour ban, even after banning many people in her chat telling her she was violating the TOS and then did a BS apology. while other (of course smaller) streamers got perma banned for it

[@darkydk1650]

Ikr the artists followed the tos like Anny or Saurei but still got banned meanwhile she didn't and justifiedly banned

[@titansaint]

it didn't help that there were people who went way past any conceivable line immediately. i had a friend who was just drawing nude figures and got banned mid-stream despite her having all the right tags in place and not doing any sexual poses, just a woman chilling nude. she was banned all through the weekend. it was so hard to see cos she was confused.

[@Gorentaya]

As someone who uses artistic nudity in my work constantly i also have a lot to say. My work is very emotionally charged, it showcases my journey with mental and physical health throughout my life. I mix beauty with horror, and use the menhera/yamikawaii style for a lot of my work since i resonate with the meaning behind the aesthetic. Since it is in an anime/manga artstyle which is already a very romanticized and sexualized style, people will automatically assume my intent behind my work is sexual even though i feel like im very obvious with what my work means. I have been a nsfw artist, and i still sometimes do draw art thats supposed to be erotic and arousing. So i guess because of my experiences with that, i myself can differentiate between sexual and non sexual nudity. While i dont blame anyone for not being able to read the meaning of some of my artworks, it is still frustrating when ive created an emotionally charged piece, and i get comments like “boobies😳” What does nudity in art symbolize when its meant to be symbolic? Two things actually. Which contrasts eachother rather nicely in my opinion Freedom and vulnerability. Nudity in a piece that symbolizes freedom, the lack of clothes showcases how nothing is holding them back. Nothing to hold them down on the ground. One with nature, free from judgement, free from pain and sorrow. Painting said piece in warm colors will only strengthen the comfort and warmth of the piece. This type of art is supposed to make you feel warm, comforted and loved. Nudity in a piece that symbolizes vulnerability, can showcase someone who has been victimized, someone who feels weak. I use this type of nudity to showcase my battle with my eating disorder, how weak and frail my body is. When you’re naked you have no armor to protect you, so people who want to hurt you can easily do so. Painting these works with blues, grays or purples will drive home the sorrow. I am from Sweden, where nudity and sex is more acceptable and understood. Ive painted works of women with both the meaning of freedom and vulnerability, and Ive gotten nothing but wonderful response from my parents friends and anyone else i meet irl that looks at my art. Children as well, find my work beautiful. Nudity is a beautiful thing. The human body is beautiful. And even sex is beautiful when it isn’t abused. It’s about love, closeness, comfort. Of course, everybody reads art differently. Interpretations aren’t wrong, but assuming an artists intent for your interpretation isn’t fair. Anyways ive rambled on long enough. Yippie Have a nice day🌹

[@BobberWCC]

Incredible perspectives, great video. Twitch please bring it back but with more refined rules.

[@R.K_Chalkboard]

I understand why artistic nudity is allowed(even KZbin and other platforms allow it), but their enforcement is terrible. They're allowing ALL artistic nudity, even if it's sexual.

[@cassiopeiathew7406]

And even if it’s not artistic

[@Emulleator]

"their enforcement is terrible" that is twitch TOS in a nutshell

[@Pihsrosnec]

​@@Emulleatoryeah that's basically the thing that went wrong here. there isn't anything inherently wrong with allowing artistic nudity but twitch has a long track record of being very bad at actually enforcing their policies in a fair and consistent way, so anyone with knowledge of twitch knew this was gonna be a complete disaster. it's especially strange because twitch doesn't really sell itself on being an artistic platform, there are obviously artists on twitch but this is the first time i've heard of twitch actively making changes intended to benefit artists.

[@uhrguhrguhrg]

True, but also the line is extremely blurred and context dependent (culture, the specific type of art in question, how it's presented, etc). I feel like it's impossible to consistently enforce in the first place.

[@richardconoway2606]

Actually, they aren't allowing any of it. People following the rules got banned

[@mc.gemstone]

Honestly the university art professors they got for this are so cool and chilled. Overall this was a really interesting discussion and its always nice to see a more professional side talk about stuff like this.

[@Supersparkplug]

Thanks! Be sure to check out all of our work!

[@donaldwithagat8537]

Seeing this situation from an artist who streams on twitch makes this whole situation 10x more funny

[@tabbycat9692]

Now I want to see someone draw Michelangelo's David doing the Jack-O pose. Thanks for putting that idea into my head, Ross.

[@wispisntokay]

sometimes I wonder if the missteps companies make are intentional for some strange ulterior motive or if they old people running them are starting to lose it

[@vibevizier6512]

Its definitely the second one, those people aren't in tune woth the rest of the world

[@ianjones9961]

"That's art as hell." High praise for Momo.

[@jeremydickinson6857]

This was super cool and insightful content in the face of a very strange situation. I'd honestly be interested in these folks coming back in the future!

[@zanthiablue5254]

This was a genuinely very interesting conversation, as giggly as it was. I think for this sort of thing to work you need to be very explicit about the lines you are drawing on what is allowed. In reality what is artistic vs pornographic nudity is a blurry line that is different from person to person, so when you make a rule about it on your streaming platform you need to be very clear about what exactly it means in this context.

[@floydbarber7528]

they are having so much fun, great people. wish there was a weekly podcast of that

[@PerobenseAlbuquerque]

I always loved your content, but this video is reaaaaally good! Love the professors and the discussion, especially with the examples chosen! Thank you everyone for your insights

[@DriftMaster.]

That reaction to the art category should just be an emote on your channel. Full on pog face(not a pog but it looked like one lol)

[@jaimie1938]

I think when we have discussions like this it's important to consider that a lot of classical nudes that many would consider tasteful were made with erotic intent. So many classical artists depicted nude models as an excuse to draw softcore! Episode 2 of the TV show 'Ways of Seeing' (available on KZbin) talks about this in some detail, very interesting stuff.

[@RoseMultiverse]

Society’s anti-sw attitudes have made history seem so much less sensual and art than it actually is.

[@Supersparkplug]

Haha, this was a fun time. I've been so curious to see which parts of our discussion was gonna make it in the video and this was great. If only everyone else could see what we saw. XD Thanks for having us.

[@vampirecheetah]

Thanks for covering this Ross, including all the input from college professors. As a life drawing model, the study isconstantly under scrutiny and is always quickly labeled asinappropriate. The human figure is amazing, and it is such a rewarding field of art study. I wish others could accept that. (Also, I have no issues with erotic art and the likes, it all has its place and purpose.)

[@robingames2002]

What’s also weird I saw a streamer who said they were 18 in their bio of twitch but when I checked their other socials they were celebrating just turning 17 a couple of days ago so even twitch doesn’t care if 17 year olds become boobie streamers……..way to go twitch (the man said sarcastically disgusted)

[@kadaogan]

the fact you guys were able to discuss artistic nudity in such a formal and academic way but still have a good time!! amazing video

[@annelovescorn]

If I was still teaching art history I would show this video to my students for class discussion. This conversation is so interesting and well done!

[@codyebert2654]

Is that the MGSD Freedom Gundam in Jordan Sparks' background? Nice

[@shawnheatherly]

Genuinely love seeing professionals weigh in on this.

[@Ulmaramlu]

At 19:41, she has an excellent point. Any operators of a publicly accessible space has a right and responsibility to curate the contents within. It doesn't matter if that space is a subway station, an art museum, a public sidewalk, or twitch. HOWEVER! I would say twitch is closer to a graffiti park than a museum. So maybe don't be so surprised that unclear rules lead to unintended results.

[@PerpetuallyTiredMillennial]

It's almost like testing with focus groups and getting outside insight or insight from massive accounts on platform shaping changes should be the first thing on their mind.

[@Gaia_BentosZX5]

And shock of all shocks, it led to a mass banning and grifters like the quivering exploiting this, knowing that if scammers like him lose viewership, their accounts are done for.

[@Gaia_BentosZX5]

In other words, Jordan Sparks was right on the money. Even though Grandma may not like it, it's kind of sus that there was an impulsive "gold rush" of sorts that led to these bans. That's what usually happens when you mix a dangerous cocktail of new technology and a lack of self-restraint. This is why Takahata101 was quick to shame his fellow Vtubers who jumped on the bandwagon, not just the AI bros.

[@aronaranyossy]

These people were so chill, loved it! Very interesting video, would love to see you discuss other topics with them :)

[@fizzle_drizzle519]

Dead ass this is a mark in time. Twitch shenanigans will never not be interesting. (The music leading into the prof. talk. Dear god lmao It's funny)

[@porkeyminch8044]

Watching Ross' stream I was excited for this video, but when the TOS was reverted I was worried it wouldn't happen, so I'm glad to see it uploaded today! These professors had a good sense of humor about the whole thing which is nice. I agree that Twitch should have had some visual (or even just detailed text) examples to make it clear what actually counts as artistic nudity and what doesn't. Also I'd love to see an uncensored version of this video somewhere (for context, of course)

[@marceloscarvalho7159]

This whole discussion made me remember of Shimoneta. It's an adult comedy anime about a world where Japan managed to heavily prohibit all forms of pornography and sexualization for the country, but there's still some people who will smuggle and search for all that type of media, and the whole discussion that the series brings up, although in a comedic tone, actually goes well with the themes of this video and what Twitch is going through right now . And it gets weird when you realize one of the professors in the video is literally named Jeff Simonetta lol

[@Penprah]

Love Gundam Freedom in the background on Jordan’s part of the call

[@DJCosmicLatte]

That cold open 🤌 You know you fucked up when five professors are laughing like hyenas

[@Some-guy_h1]

I just love when Toreador March is just playing and the reaction that RubberRoss made was just mortified and confused as hell.

[@JosephReference]

uni/college professors looking at wild unhinged art is the best

[@fondestboar7922]

This video was hilarious honestly these professors are super entertaining I'd love to see more of them at some point if you ever do a video idea that they would fit like this one

[@Robdou3]

Man. That is just insane to hear holy hell. WHY ARE PEOPLE LIKE THIS.

[@BerzerkerRush]

Easy, views = money. The fact twitch had to ban the word “simp” speaks volumes to its community.

[@DAVID-ANDERSON]

people like to say "sex sell"

[@sinteleon]

@@DAVID-ANDERSON Yes, but twitch streaming also sells.

[@siegwardinspirit]

I don't know if it's just adult me becoming disillusioned with people and people were always so *extremely* horny, but to me it seems a lot of people are very sexually repressed. Announcing a huuuge change like this and *immediately* applying it, combined with how desperate people are, was just not a good idea. Twitch basically set it up for failure. They didn't give people time to get accustomed to a change that was gonna happen. They didn't give themselves time to make revisions to rules. They gave plenty of room for misinterpretation. And then they just reversed it all and punished people for changes they made.

[@mr.winters4698]

Twitch blunder aside, I would genuinely love a stream or show dedicated to a panel of classically drained artists/art professors reviewing and analyzing erotic art and where it falls in the grounds of "artistic nudity." There's just something so amusing about the juxtaposition of professionalism in critique with cartoon eroticism, plus there's a good amount of educational explanations around why they're judging a particular piece being over the line or not. But of course any show like that would be practically guaranteed demonetized or would toe the line of TOS, so probably wouldn't be very viable for anyone to do it as anything more than a one time thing.

[@Merc1987]

This is what is called a "reverse tumblr"

[@gaIIowsCaIibrator]

Allow corn, nobody bats an eye, ban corn and everybody loses their minds

[@BelindaShort]

This really sucks honestly because I'm an art streamer and I've had several friends over the years who've been banned or gotten in trouble through twitch for drawing implied nudity or even slight tiny bits of artistic nudity and getting in trouble so for them to just like pull all this s*** and of course everybody turned it into a free-for-all is just icing on the cake

[@steppiepeppie]

everyone was really funny and cool, would feel lucky to have any of them as a teacher

[@DaVince21]

I love that the thumbnail to this looks so serious but you're having so much fun and cracking jokes with each other throughout most of the video.

[@tremvfei]

it feels like there's an interesting conversation to be had about the presumed intent of art in the process of being made. since the the proof of or intent of eroticism of an artistic endeavor doesn't preclude its scholastic value or "artistic intent", likewise the quality or skill level doesn't preclude the artistic endeavor as more or less than, even in cases of performance as art, it doesn't feel like something can be categorized as artistic nudity without the finalized context of the experience. twitch being a primarily live streaming platform and all of its content essentially existing as simultaneously in progress and what you see is what you get at any given moment, it definitely seems like the streamers need access to a more comprehensive toolset and labeling system than what the platform gives them credit for. the initial rule change lacking full clarity and the subsequent "rollback" even moreso, it really seems like the problem still comes down to a matter of how the content is organized and accessed and not so much defining what the limitations of "artistic nudity" or "scholastic intent" or "publicly appropriate" actually are. there definitely needs to be more of an onus on making more accurate and intentional use of whatever tagging system is available streamer side, but there also needs to be a more effective and customizable filtering system available to the viewer users of the platform.

[@tremvfei]

its also very important to consider the practical implementation of the toolset, because if the platform refuses to concretely define their guidelines on top of being a LIVE content platform, the act of interpretation of the rules is always going to fall on the shoulders of the streamer in the moment as far as labeling is concerned, and every case superceding their interpretation should then have to take that lack of baseline into account. while ultimately the responsibility of the platform content falls on the corporation, given their unwillingness to concretely define things: unless the corporate side is going to implement a first defense / grace period of a representative moderator correcting the presumed misapplication of labels and tags then the streamer's individual interpretation is and will continue to be the only practical user end way to use the available tools.

[@murdanito]

Very well said, i enjoyed this video very much. Thank you always with the awesome content Ross. Can't wait to see you at Scribble Showdown in Phoenix.

[@keysden]

OMG 2:20 THATS ME LMAO HI ROSS! Big longtime fan of you. You're an inspiration of an artist. Thank you for including me in this vid a bit. I'll take it as my reward for fucking around and finding out while twitch makes the most questionable decision in its entire history as a company. PS. uwu~

[@ShyVioletIsShy]

I really enjoyed this video. I have a BFA and this makes me wish I was in a Life Drawing class again! Please invite these professionals again, I love their insights!!

[@AbyssalB55]

I remember laughing my ass off at how wild people went the day of the policy change

[@bgtherobit]

the last bit about commissioning someone to do a diagram showing what is and isnt ok just makes me think of the ArtFight rules on this subject - they also allow artistic nudity and not full on nsfw - HOWEVER they have very thorough and easy to understand guides, both in text and in diagrams, that show what the line is.

[@TheSpektrum1989]

"That's art as hell" is an amazing quote from this

[@joshkupka]

Such an interesting video! I would love to see you do this again on Other Topics!

[@Chaos_Senpai]

Jordan seems like a great professor just because he likes Gundam

[@edwinbear7065]

Thanks for breaking it down Ross. I think bringing in Art Profs is a great way to have a serious conversation about art, and as a person with a degree in art I really appreciated this.

[@Afraidimp]

Ah yes, the hot tub streams have evolved again, from just chatting to 'artistic' streams

[@willshea2460]

I think the funniest thing about this is just how fast it happened like overnight fast as if all these different twitch channels we're just waiting to hit the stream button as soon as the new rules were put in place.

[@skrubpai3592]

these new changes are wild

[@whisper6330]

Great video, I think that This is easy drama for Twitch, it generates conversations they’re familiar with and traffic back to twitch for a bit. It’s also probably making noise to cover up something else they don’t want you to talk about.

[@titansaint]

kudos to the professors for all being chill with just meeting some dude on the internet and seeing porn together for the sake of discussion. you guys all had great attitudes about it and great commentary!

[@artlover2553]

After seeing the new TOS I was considering working my Vtuber model on stream. It’s still in the drawing phase. The reason I didn’t before is cause the base for the model is naked. No details on the private areas, it just looks like a barbie doll. It’s just that way so I can make different clothes for her in the future. But still, I was pretty certain it went against Twitch’s guidelines. So the update to the TOS would’ve made things easier. But then, 2 days later, Twitch backtracked.

[@charlie2105]

More art discussions please.

[@robertpoole9707]

I was desperately anticipating this video the moment you said you were doing it. Great stuff

[@Khipher]

I remember seeing some of these artistic nudity streams and immediately thinking to myself “…there’s nothing artistic about this nudity”

[@RozyShaman]

Great video, I actually rather enjoyed this more serious/light-hearted discussion style content and would love to see more in the future even if it’s infrequent.