My Thoughts on Stormgate

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[@ChristophelusPulps]

Stormgate just feels soulless to me. The aesthetic identity is instantly forgettable. Starcraft 1 especially, and also 2 have a distinct, memorable art direction. You don't need extreme graphical fidelity to have a strong visual style. Stormgate has neither.

[@planetary-rendez-vous]

No identity no vision, you can't love it. It's just artificial toys and competition.

[@ChristophelusPulps]

@@planetary-rendez-vous Exactly. Every single unit in Starcraft had a distinct visual identity that tied it to its faction and to the game's setting. I remember as a kid knowing nothing about Starcraft, but I could look at the different units and get a feel for them.

[@Harry-hyl]

it's just not that fun.

[@TheNeighbor216]

Art style makes me think "My baby's first RTS"

[@pupper5580]

It's also soulless in the way that it has just Borg'ed everything from other games. Meaning everything is just copy-paste from other games, and they have zero creativity of their own.

[@しらこ-465]

Agree with most of your assessment. I think its a promising game, but at least a year or two out from being something i choose to play over WC3 or SC2.

[@bojanfilipovic8655]

They will not do that...

[@ryu-ken]

wc3,sc2,aoe's, hell even bw all better than sg...

[@BodoMusic1337]

Way longer. At this stage of development Blizzard would not even have announced the game yet.

[@GEE_BLACCK]

Gates of Pyre is better, what do you think?

[@Scytha86]

The problem is many people think this way, so who is gonna play it until then? :D

[@PhantomHarlock78]

Stormgate dev want to make the game easier than SC2 but in the end is unnecessarily more complex.

[@sarfqersarweqar]

For me it s stupid from dev perspective, in broodwar, SC2 we have a lot of ''noobs'' who does mass void rays or mass cariers and have fun, I dont understand what they think about less complex, bcs SC2 is not that complex, maybe on the higher rank but this is how it should be.

[@adamramos4063]

@@sarfqersarweqar SC2 IS complex compared to most games. It's just that it's like what you said, difficulty in multiplayer will scale depending on opponent anyway, which means that noobs who spam one unit at 30APM will face other people who put just as little brainpower. You could say the same logic for LoL and Dota 2 (both are less complex than SC2 imo).

[@ZverseZ]

​@adamramos4063 SC2 is complex because you can only make an RTS so simple before it doesnt feel like an RTS anymore In stormgate it seems like they hold your hand through everything, but also manage to not give a proper tutorial or tooltips in the campaign Its a weird situation where casuals like me feel too babied and newbies feel like they dont know what to do

[@bmalotaux]

​@@sarfqersarweqar I've tried teaching both to my 5yo son. SC2 is much harder than stormgate to pick up.

[@ryu-ken]

The thing is thr other games are just fun. Like you said you can be a noob and mass carriers or do other dumb stuff and just have fun being a noob. But in sg the game isn't fun....it's missing something, that magic

[@GoDiMoNsTeR]

This is how I imagine a game coded by GPT-8 would look like

[@TouristAarchie]

my man!! ❤

[@nuffen]

interesting!! Jajajja

[@AbeTheArabb]

Enjoy your content! Glad to see a youtube vid!

[@Krarilotus]

Did you try the game Beyond All Reason?

[@lilarrin1220]

My opinion is that the devs are overly focused on the esports/competitive side of the game, especially with how much they are catering to professionals and are already holding tournaments, while the co-op/campaign modes are largely unfinished. I think this is a very backwards approach to designing a game, since you need a healthy casual player base to sustain a competitive scene. Make a good game for everyone first, then a competitive scene will naturally follow.

[@lasagnahog7695]

This is how I feel as well. The pricing model only makes sense if there is a robust competitive playerbase and the game is successful IMMEDIATELY. Casuals like a campaign but they are trickling out expensive missions over months/years. And since I only ever heard about this game when I was looking for a modern SC2 means they aren't really making an impact in the broader gaming community whereas Starcraft is a fairly recognizable IP.

[@badassmofo3081]

The campaign made me legit mad I spent money on this crap

[@corgibuttz2550]

I got a chance to try the game before the open beta at Dreamhack. I didn't have the heart to tell Day9's mom how much I didn't really like my first taste at the game. I have a real bad feeling this game is going to face plant out of the gate, and disappear in 6 months.

[@HeroMarineSc2]

I hope not. I'll play again when I feel like the patch and meta are fun, though I’m not sure they can achieve that. I'm a very picky gamer, and it seems like they’re heading in a different direction than I was hoping for.

[@harbhub]

That's the general vibe I'm getting. The game is objectively bad, yet certain people don't want to be "mean" to the developers.

[@badassmofo3081]

I told them what I think in my negative steam review, I paid money for their ""campaign"" and it feels like shovelware from 2009

[@pupper5580]

@@harbhub As a programmer: the developers definitely don't deserve any kind treatment (because how badly they've done everything), they should be given objective and direct criticism.

[@alexxander1768]

(I will never read a reply) Why are people thumbs upping some cuck worshipping Bald[9]. You don't go completely grey AND bald at age 35 unless you are living a complete lie. I always hated Day9's self important 'aura'. Like kiddo, you're playing Hearthstone and could only compete at Brood War when there was 5 people showing up for LANS.

[@pencilswordfish]

This makes me appreciate just how MUCH sheer engineering went into SC2 and why that game feels amazing to play. Even something as simple as dog micro can get janky, and it makes me wonder just how much programming it took to get Zergling micro perfect. ALL THESE new RTS games like Stormgate, Zerospace or Tempest Rising, etc.... they absolutely NEED to get unit control right and at the very least clear the bar or reach SC2. That's like the bare minimum before we even get to campaign, customs, competitive, etc. Get unit control perfect.

[@unholymackerel8072]

The bare minimum is surpassing the greatest competitive RTS of all time? God I would hate to be an RTS developer with this type of crowd 😂

[@StoffiePrductions]

@@unholymackerel8072 u mean c&c?

[@Barbarossa97]

@@unholymackerel8072 RTS from the 90's are better than this junk

[@nightmareTomek]

Beyond All Reason has surpassed SC2 in unit control. Apparently it's doable.

[@Barbarossa97]

@nightmareTomek In possibilities to micro, yes, but not yet in unit unit responsiveness

[@TefGG]

Having developed strategy games myself. I can see they haven't solved some of the difficult RTS issues with mass unit collision and pathfinding, or not prioritized to fix them yet, or with intention to reduce deathball syndrome. In StarCraft 1 the bad pathfinding is almost a feature, but the pace is much slower in SC1 and units move along hexes. StarCraft 2 is great for a very good reason and the crown jewel is its editor.

[@nightmareTomek]

That overcomplicated mess of an editor?

[@TefGG]

@@nightmareTomekIt did it's job and without it you wouldn't have a game to begin with. Not saying the UX is perfect at all, but it's extremely powerful and useful. And it's still one of the best RTS editors out there even after 10+ years.

[@nightmareTomek]

@@TefGG Ye, ye, it's powerful and thus useful, but it is an overcomplicated mess anyway. The improvements I would have done to it if I could... And then things aren't working and it doesn't tell you why.

[@lasagnahog7695]

I don't see how this game can succeed without a campaign. Are they hoping to just usurp SC2's entire competitive playerbase? How is a player new to the genre supposed to get into it? Am I just out of touch thinking a campaign is an important part of an RTS?

[@freemarketcollectibles678]

The inability to change hotkeys completely to be whatever you want is the reason I uninstalled the game within one hour. I will never play an RTS that prevents you from individually assigning keybings to unit actions and buildings. Whoever thought this was a good idea should be fired.

[@pupper5580]

Even Warcraft 2, a game from 1996, allows you to customize hotkeys (although you have to do some tricks to get it done).

[@DasHobble]

I'd be stoked to see what you'd do in Beyond All Reason!

[@OpiatesAndTits]

BAR looks amazing

[@Kasparovwannabe]

I feel like creeping works in WC3 because it’s a very skirmish heavy game. Camps are hard, and players are fighting over them sometimes from the very beginning. It does a great job of promoting fights, which is what the game is all about. Stormgate, on the other hand, seems to take an SC2 style game and put creeps in there. I think it’s too macro focused to make creeps a really engaging element. It doesn’t really fit with the game’s ethos like it does in WC3.

[@Gemwielders]

And the fact that they respawn and the rewards scale each time makes you kind of obligated to farm them efficiently. It sounds like a real burden to keep track of all the camp respawns and ideally take them the second they respawn

[@StrigWilson]

Doesn't help that only one race has a veterency mechanic

[@alexfriedman2152]

It's not even that.... I mean it makes NO sense to have them, but it works anyway... But that's not even the problem the problem is it's not balanced and it's a BUGGY mess that is so bad. The graphics look horrible too. My eyes hurt sometimes.

[@nightmareTomek]

They said they want the player to be out on the map. I just don't get this argument, they're on the map alright, but doing things nobody wants to see.

[@alexfriedman2152]

@@nightmareTomek The problem is that they give too much of an advantage to sit there on defense, but not enough of an advantage to actually care about getting more creeps. You just kinda do it cuz it's there, not because it's a huge strategically important thing.

[@Sev017]

Been a Harstem viewer for a while so the name HeroMarine is no stranger to me, but this was my first time seeing a video from him, this being said, its nice to see someone who feels genuinely passionate for Stormgate and their criticism derives from that passion and desire for the game to succeed and be a true successor to the classic rts games we all know and love. HM has great points during this video and Im sure FG will be able to capitalize on this feedback.

[@smantie]

None of this feedback is remotely new. Frost Giant have had months to fix this and decided to throw their resources at marketing instead.

[@Scytha86]

@@smantie Maybe at this time that decision is more worth it, every new game need a big steady player base they could make better later.

[@captainfischi1029]

For me there is a lot that i sadly don't like about Stormgate. But one of the most annoying things for me is that the fights looks so boring to me. It feels like that your units dont do damage and the attacks just don't look interesting. I would have liked to have a game besides Starcraft that has some nice 1v1 and Arcade but Stormgate really failed me.

[@mh1593]

Considering the aspirations of Stormgate to be a Professional RTS , It's really important to hear about the experiences of Profressional RTS such as HeroMarine. Thank you.

[@yGKeKe]

Interesting that he says he has 50 FPS, and his settings are visibly turned down enough to the point of everything being blurry AF, it's only in 1080p...and being a pro, I'm sure he has a pretty good PC because he was probably given one by a sponsor. It's absolutely insane how poorly this game runs, regardless of how good or bad the graphics are. Just FYI, this hotkey issue is feedback they were given in the Alpha. They didn't want to hear it. I shit you not, that is DAY ONE feedback that I PERSONALLY gave them. I gave it alongside the feedback, "We need replays ASAP." Fully custom hotkeys and replays are the most essential things for any RTS to have, and are essential for even properly testing the game. FGS does not give a fuck. Same thing with the dog. A lot of us told them the starting dog is bad...instead of removing the dog, they added the hexxan.

[@pupper5580]

As a programmer, I am very disappointed how this game has been made. It seems like complete amateur hour. Everything is done lazily, badly, or stupidly (or all 3). It's like these guys aren't even trying - they just take the money and then act lazy, give you the minimum viable product and say "hey, we deserved the money, here's the product" while the product is completely sub-par.

[@unholymackerel8072]

Damn bro if it's so easy why haven't you cooked up an RTS game yourself? ​@pupper5580

[@Pangora2]

For me, I recount how SC1 had a demo. I played Warcraft II here and there, Red Alert, etc. In Red Alert one of the first things was I made a custom map with a bridge, because every new child playing these games wants to defend a choke point. The Solo/Campaign aspect is how new people get into these games. The second issue, Creeps. In AoE II you might farm random animals...because you're farming animals to get your civilization going. Creeps not only are needlessly complex, but they're anti-RTS. SC1 had high ground and a couple narrow choke points or base placement. These things are inherently understandable. Everyone knows 300 Spartans held off countless Persians even as a myth because they had a choke point. Farming Creeps? Taking the high ground or fortifying a choke point shouldn't need that incentive. Third is the competitive focus. I remember Mighty No 9's kickstarter. Before the game even came out they were talking about sequels, cartoon spinoffs. They were thinking well past the game they needed to focus on. It was from THE percieved head creator of Megaman games. The game bombed, HARD. Fourth, they wanted to Slow the game down, but that just makes it seem like everyone isn't doing damage. They don't want anythign to be Explosive and an army gone in an instant. But one of the most iconic elements in early SC1 was "nuclear launch detected". You could, within seconds, wipe out an enemy army in one blast. Also if everything survives so much better, having a unit or two hold a great position doesn't matter. Imagine a siege tank on high ground the enemy can't see. It panics a player and they know this terrain isn't friendly so they need to haul ass. People love siege tanks in both SC games. They assumed players hate units ding fast and won't play their game but players that are new also WANT to kill other units fast as well.

[@Skiv4a]

Battle Aces even more promising that SG. IMHO.

[@Pangora2]

Yeah, I thought I'd like it less, but the fact BA is taking risks I'm not sure they will pay off, but I do think its improvable.

[@nightmareTomek]

You guys tried Beyond All Reason?

[@majesticasian21]

Unfortunately I agree with all the points in this video. I wanted this game to be a successor to sc2 but it’s just so janky and unpolished. A lot more work is needed for this game to play good, because right now it just feels so off.

[@kgeo2686]

This game needed another year before Early Access release. The big red flag is why didn’t they wait? We must assume they are tight on money, and that’s scary.

[@skipp3252]

It doesnt help the grahpics that every single player turns down their settings to the minimum in the hopes of getting a couple more frames.

[@RJavier007]

Does not help at all. The game is cpu heavy not gpu heavy. Needs optimization

[@allanshpeley4284]

The game isn't much better at high resolution. It was just poorly designed in almost every way.

[@jg1093]

The art style looks like rip from a cheap Chinese mobile game lol

[@MrAndromedean]

curious to see where you go next! thanks for sharing!

[@petercriscuola]

Remove creeps. Remove scouts at the start. Improve graphics. Fights are not fun, they are a mess, i dont even know if im winning. Game needs more harrass options, not something like widow mines, but we need something else. I will play the game and give it more chances, i know its not finish, but for now, sc2 is much much better.

[@michaelneilson8050]

The game needs t1 units to he way weaker and more t3 units. Celestial is argent kri spam Infernals is gaunt magmadon Vanguard is exo lancer and some meds. That's it every game, and if you try different builds you just get run over by the optimized t1 build

[@mEtil5656]

I think a main issue is that the game has been branded as "THE NEXT AND ONLY RTS THAT WILL GET ALL THE PLAYERS" which kinda sets it up for failure. So when it won't be perfect at release many might turn away instantly. Also, the other main problem is that they just focused way too much on sc2 and wc3 (also aoe maybe i dont know too much about that), which made the game turn out to just be way too similar to sc2 imo. Its nothing new, nothing breathtaking. There are a few differences to sc2, but really not that many overall. So people who DONT like sc2 won't play it (except the few that don't like sc2 for those specific things that are different) and those who DO like sc2 will still be playing sc2. Especially because stormgate just feels worse at many things than the current sc2, which obviously makes sense since the game has been developed, changed and tweaked for over 10 years on a MUCH bigger budget. Other new games, like battle aces and zerospace for example, just feel very different which might make them have success. Also Stormgates art and style just feels kinda off, which is another big point for most casual players

[@smantie]

It was branded that way because that's the way they branded it. They paid so many streamers to hype the game. They sent "care packages" (bribes) to thousands of streamers. They did nothing original. Look at what David Kim did with Battle Aces or JaKataK with Gates of Pyre. There's a lot of genuine creativity that Frost Giant have gone out of their way to try and stifle while making mistakes that have been avoidable for over twenty years. They claimed they knew better and clearly don't. There has rarely been a game that has deserved to die out of the gate as this. You claim that the budget for SC2 was bigger, which is true, but a majority of that was spent on the CGI. Storm gate hasn't caught up with Wings of Liberty yet, so it's not like the budgets have been widely dissimilar. You're talking like $40M vs. $60M with most of the latter being spent on CGI.

[@ThyOwnage]

SC2 coming out 14 years ago IS a good thing. Look at our last balancing patch, red lines for widow mines, drones range doubled - it's just small changes at this point that does still change things and matters, but we are at the point of fine-tuning, and I couldn't be more happy with the way SC2 plays

[@DealerLoot1]

They are much more focused on making changes towards the balance aspect rather than optimizing the software to improve the current gameplay!

[@blacknyellow962]

It will be interesting to see what happens with this game as it gets more time to 'bake" if you will. Individual hotkeys, replays/social features are small but important to the quality of life of RTS games in addition to the actual gameplay elements of course.

[@eduardoserpa1682]

Your points about unit control and visual fluidity are interesting. I wasn't really affected by either (because of skill issues on my part lol), but the unit control one seems intentional from their stated goals of weakening deathballs of units, and opening up more body-block micro compared to Starcraft. The point about creep camps is fair, specially on the previous patch. Clearing camps on one base should NEVER be economically stronger than just expanding, and they seem to agree. It feels about right for me atm, but I hope they make expanding slightly more rewarding still.

[@HeroMarineSc2]

I think that's why SC2 is so successful. The fact that units do what you tell them to do without long animations, clunky pathing, or workers messing up makes it, in my opinion, by far the best RTS. I don't really see the problem with deathballs in SC2. Right now I feel like I get better surrounds if I just don't micro.

[@mEtil5656]

​@@HeroMarineSc2i agree. While deathballs can be quite challenging to deal with in sc2's lower levels, having units do EXACTLY what you tell them with one click is something that is very important to me, and probably most others. It just feels unfun if that isn't the case

[@Krarilotus]

this!

[@4FourBit]

And this a realistic example how an average player sees the game. Thanks for voicing it out.

[@JohnnyImprove4]

🎉❤ i feel most of these "gamers" can't sense the power of stormgate. I like Gabe but yeah, your comment caught my eye and i agree.

[@lasagnahog7695]

I don't think HeroMarine is an example of an 'average player'. He's a literal Pro Gamer so his opinions will reflect that.

[@4FourBit]

@JohnnyImprove4 It can be proven that there is no such power. Time will tell you.

[@4FourBit]

@@lasagnahog7695 This has nothing to do with his career whatsoever.

[@ddenozor]

Oh man that 5-6 dogs attacking one B.O.B and failing miserably was an eye opener. Holy shit that is BAD. I would expect "ex-Blizz devs" to at least nail that one since SC2 had no such problems 14 years ago.

[@nightmareTomek]

I'm kinda in similar shoes, I've only once tried Age of Empires 3. Medieval and fantasy settings just don't pull me in, I'm more of a sci-fi nerd. Beyond All Reason is sci-fi and really good. Unit handling is even more satisfying than in SC2. Have you tried it?

[@ClearAlera]

It's surprising to me that these issues are so prevalent from the devs of WC3 and SC2. They had the same problem where creeps gave way too much gold in the early days of WC3, so they learned from that and toned it down a bunch when the expansion came out, and now they're making the same mistake. Original Starcraft had awful pathing, WC3 was a bit better, and then SC2's was essentially perfect. It's weird that the same people who perfected pathing 14 years ago are struggling to get it right here. Maybe it's because they didn't build their own engine from the ground up this time? UE5 is a fantastic engine in lots of use cases, but it doesn't seem to be meeting FPS or networking requirements for a high-actor RTS. I shudder to think about the laggy sideshow 3v3 is going to be

[@yGKeKe]

Unfortunately, most of the "Issues" you just mentioned are intentional design choices. Creep camps give a lot of resources because they serve no other purpose since there are no heroes and people ignore them if they don't give a meaningful amount of resources. Pathing is intentionally trying to be more like WC3 and less like SC2 to "Prevent death balls," that is to say that it is intentionally janky. The only thing that's not intentional is the trash FPS issue.

[@Broformist]

"It's weird that the same people who perfected pathing 14 years ago are struggling to get it right here"

[@Pangora2]

@@Broformist We learned this from Mighty No 9's kickstarter. "From the creator of Megaman" and the game was a disaster

[@ClearAlera]

@Broformist Yea the same thought definitely ran through my mind. Lots of people worked on the Blizzard RTS games through the years, and I'm sure lots of the key contributors are missing here.

[@Gonzalo_105]

devs of stacraft 2? nha, these people where just the janitor and the meal cart pusher

[@MuriloZF.]

It's really dumb, but one thing that really pisses me off is the fact that are no button to queue another match, there is just a 'play campaign' button, so you gotta go to the ranked tab everytime, its quite annoying

[@toddmcghee2207]

Agreed

[@BadConeja]

“I’m not a gamer. I don’t like RTS.” *Infamous for SC2 marine micro* -HeroMarine

[@sgtduckduck]

?

[@TacSav253]

"I'm not a gamer" -Heromarine, professional gamer

[@yGKeKe]

He's differentiating between someone who plays ONE game vs someone who branches out and experiences more types of games. It's hard to make a fair comparison if the only other game he's played is SC2. It carries a little more weight when someone who has played 30+ different RTS games just says "This shit sucks."

[@TacSav253]

@@yGKeKeI know, I was just kidding. Though I appreciate you taking the time to clear things up for those who don't see the joke!

[@Shelly7005]

“But I’m not a rapper.” Absolute legend

[@welshy3289]

To me, it feels like the dev's are trying too hard with the mechanics and is alienating almost everyone. SC2 has the rep of being too hard and complicated, but when you break it down, it all just makes sense, with buildings, tech etc.. and watch towers are simple to use. Probably a few too many spell casters imo, but otherwise it's just perfect. You don't have to reinvent the wheel for the sake of it. SC2 is still popular (mostly with nerds now, admittedly) for a reason. The GFX will improve as it is early access, but I heard they are hell bent on the actual style of it, which is a shame as that takes me out of it. And I agree with the feel of the game.. It just feels 'off'. Too slow and floaty. That can be changed I assume, but I don't think they are going to do it. Such a shame, but as long as we still have SC2, I'm not too fussed. I am staggered that some dev hasn't just blatantly ripped off SC2 and updated a few things, as that's pretty much all we need

[@rawrss]

Sounds like we should be thankful Sc2 is still around... Holy this is so terrible.

[@lordlopikong6940]

It's true, screws budget comparisons people will play the better game overall. Doesn't matter the background.

[@MrPsychopathy]

I haven't played this game, but I have watched maybe 10 hours of people playing it and I have yet to see a flying unit that isn't from Celestials...and even then it's like 2 of them that I've seen. Do the other races even have flying units?

[@Pangora2]

I think in the early early days Infernals had a dragon.

[@JonFTrudel]

Gabe you're 100% right about the free first unit!

[@Antifrost]

The game is Early Access, but I think it could have done with some more polish first. I'm expecting that its issues will get ironed out over time, though I know that first impressions mean a lot to people and there's probably a good chunk of players who'll quit before the devs can respond in time. Even though I hold the opinion that Blizzard's games are the gold standard for RTSs, I still want to see other games in the genre succeeding. On the point about the hotkeys, it feels like they're set-up more like a MOBA than an RTS. I can imagine muscle memory being difficult to adjust to, especially for professional players. I imagine they must've known that a good part of their playerbase would've come from SC2, so it's surprising to not have options to at least accommodate them.

[@brunohollenberger2563]

i like this review and hope the devs will watch this and change up some stuff

[@proxyjan]

"A dog is AFK", that's a sentence I thought I would never hear

[@ohaRega]

to be fair, most dogs I know are usually afk

[@MasterMcCubbin]

I love RTS. I’ve played SC, SC2, AOE, hero’s of might and magic, couple others and man I played two matches and just can’t really get into it

[@mfranco25881]

I really appreciate your take on it. I am very similar to you. I have played sc2 & bw basically exclusively for most of my life. I don’t care about funding, or looking into the future or what it could be. I either enjoy the game and like the way it looks or I don’t.

[@cls880]

Age of Mythology Retold is out in less than 24 hours. I know that it's not your preferred setting, but a lot of the design choices seem promising and the god powers look like it would be great for viewers as well.

[@game_jinx]

hero marine the best eu personality. the truth always comes from HM

[@mohastgridlock]

My worry is the lack of vision more than anything.

[@JJV7243]

I think the slower combat speed is a big boon. Many people don't have crazy APM and slower combats give these players a bit more time to get focused and interact with their units.

[@HeroMarineSc2]

I think spawning with a random dog and having all these random camps on the map makes it a lot more intimidating to new players. Additionally, I don't think SC2 is too fast, it's the same speed for both players and you will always be able to find an opponent on your level, even if you are really bad and there isn't so much information in the game that you have to learn to fully understand it.

[@UbiycaCrabov]

Slow combat is in AOE4 whee you can react to any enemys move whenether you are slow or not. BUT in this game you have reaction and scout of SC2 and slow of AOE4 which is very very bad imo.

[@eduardoserpa1682]

​​@@HeroMarineSc2 The same constraints applying to both players only means SC2 is a fair game, like most games are. The longer combat duration isn't meant to address that, it's just meant to make it feel different from SC2. That difference may be a negative for you if SC2 is already your favorite RTS, but it's a more familiar rhythm for anyone else.

[@sniperjelly9537]

@@UbiycaCrabov Slow combat works in aoe4 because good players can used apm for macro decision, like making more productions, making more villagers, pulling workers to different resources, switching tech, switching army composition. It's putting more strategy in real time strategy. For SC2 or stormgate, the economy side is super barebone and better players can just put more apm into just micro, pulling units in and out. It's infuriating, it just puts more "real time" in it, and you will lose simply got snowballed

[@UbiycaCrabov]

@@sniperjelly9537 storm gate don’t has nearly the same micro as sc2 you absolute clown

[@Lingboysc2]

I don't know how they haven't figured out pathing when SC2 did it right 14 years ago and these people apparently worked on sc2???

[@neonmarblerust]

Perfect multi-agent pathfinding is impossible for real-time applications (NP-hard). So every game is going to have heuristics, and the players will have to learn them.

[@Lingboysc2]

@@neonmarblerust I'm not asking for perfect, I just want something like sc2 where my units move smoothly and predictably. Apparently the pathing is bugged in Stormgate and the devs are working on it.

[@neonmarblerust]

​@@Lingboysc2 check out the blog from the old blizz devs (war1, sc1) called codeofhonor. Theres a few posts about pathfinding.

[@awagnow]

Even the lead pathing engineer from sc2 works on stormgate

[@oskarsgizatulins1679]

You kinda get spoiled by pathfinding in sc2. I don't think there is rts with better pathfinding and general responsiveness of gameplay

[@DJZander01]

I play stormagte quite a bit and i think the units all feel stiff and less fluid compared to sc2. Im not sure if they can fix that in this stage of the game or not hut i hope they can.

[@game_jinx]

sub par performance. graphics. balance. textures. unit gliding. hotkeys. auto worker selection. etc

It is 2024, and they still make control panel that takes so much of the screen. So unless your are playing on small screen laptop, it does not make sense. And yeah, performance is awful on high end laptop. A lot of latency. Sometimes first keyboard press does not do anything and only second time it works ,etc. And when latency hits sceen scrolling, it is impossible to stop scrolling

[@gaomon2887]

summary at minute 10 Mimimi my blocked units who are physicly unable to attack dont attack. 10-13 mimimi i cant kite so the system is bad. 13-16 MIMIMI I CANNOT USE A KEYBORD like srs this one was pathetic. 16-18 HOW DARE THEY GIVE ME A SCOUT? NOW I DONT HAVE TO WASTE A WORKER AT THE START THIS IS BAD BECASUE IM A STARCRAFT PLAYER. 18-20 OH NOOOOO I DONT UNDERSTAND THE MECHANIC WHERE CAMPS GIVE ME GOLD TO EXPAND THIS GAME SUCKS THEY GIVE ME RECOURCES FOR KILLING SHIT HOW FUCKING DAREEEE THEY. 20 Mannn now they make me do the camps too because its smart it prevents rushing to some extend and makes it so you have something to do in early game I CANT FOCUS ON MORE THAN MY BUILDORDER BECAUSE IM A STARCRAFT PLAYER THIS MEANS STORMGATE IS DOING BAD DESING BECASUE MY -IQ BRAIN CANT FIGURE THE GAME OUT. Meanwhile i dont even know about the passive buffs creepcamps give because i dont like stormgate and i dont want starcraft to be played even less. Okay enough with the bs i know its your oppinion however you just want to play StarCraft which is fine go do that dont make this game look bad because its not a 1 to 1 starcraft clone because then we also know it owuld be called bad. So just dont play it and shut up or play stormgate for stormgate IT IS NOT I REPREAT IT IS NOTTT STARCRAFT IT IS IT's OWN GAME.

[@SCDarkZide]

I don't see why you were upset. People are interested in his opinion, good or bad. Comparisons to StarCraft 2 and Warcraft 3 are inevitable from a design standpoint; ask the devs what they aspire this game to be and you will see why. The examples he shows for what he perceives as subpar pathing aren't only about kiting (cf. 11:33) and I think they do look pretty jarring. The keyboard issue is, well, it's strange that he isn't calling them by the SC 2 terminology but grid keys have been very uncommon in RTS (did SC 2 even have them back in WoL?). It's a fixable issue sure. What he's really saying there is simply that the level of customization you find in Starcraft 2 - every basic and unit specific command, every production and building command being remappable - is simply enviable. Every game would benefit from having that. The rest is simply preference and "I don't like where the gamplay patches are heading".

[@TheEngomusic]

great to hear your thoughts

[@talismanTVsc2]

I Agree with everything you say in this video, and this problem with bob constructing something (when half doing stuff, half walking around) made me quit vanguards. Thanks for video

[@vanvalium]

So far I'm quite disappointed. I'll wait with a proper judgement until it's 'fully' out though.

[@nebelung1]

Yep good point. Why expand when you can do creep and get money basically risk free

[@ROSWELLHUB]

I agree with everything you just said. I like the game but I think they need more time with it

[@atstrollz6875]

They are named Bobs for a reason😂

[@Kuzmorgo]

Personally I think the scout in the beginning would not be that big of an issue, if it wasn't so strong. AoE2 you start with a scout, but it is so weak, that a villager can kill it 1v1. But also in AOE you need a scout, because of the random generated map, in stormgate I don't see a reason for it. I guess it helps new players, because it eases the timing aspect of scouting your opponent.

[@lordlopikong6940]

New players won't scout lol.

[@somaloll]

stormgate almost feels like sc1 more than sc2 sometimes because of how goofy the pathing can be and how difficult it is to control your army with the performance drops I also think every unit has way too large of a hitbox and they collide way too much. Like if i pull 6 bobs to build something there should never be a world where 2 of those bobs end up fighting to get to the building for 10 seconds. I understand collision issues when it comes to large units like ultralisk but workers should easily be able to navigate around other units no problem

[@bobjones7533]

Please review godsworn RTS game

[@yoxinator]

I agree with you wholeheartedly... But I only have one question for this man. How are you getting 200 FPS in SC2? You got some kind of German folk magic going on on your computer?

[@NoName-md6fd]

There are a couple of good mechanics in there, but for the most part Stormgate feels like a soulless pastiche. I don't want to be mean to the devs either because I understand the broad idea, but there is an old sprite based game called little war game that plays in your browser, is free, has replays, has a map editor, has ranked and does a better job at being a simplified and accessible version of Blizzard style RTS than Stormgate does. One faction, but the human tree is akind to WC3 human and the beast tree plays like zerg.

[@Broformist]

If you think Vanguard units move poorly you should try using Infernal armies. :D I had to ragequit that race because of how unbelievably infuriating it was trying to chase stutter-stepping Vanguard bio army with Infernals.

[@PingWhisper]

Thanks Marine, I think the game is a bit underwhelming as well. I'm hoping it comes better, but I find myself less likely to return to a game that was in this bad of shape. It's just so far away from other RTS's its really years out.

[@sylvariatzaka]

Devs leaned too hard into the warcraft side instead of the starcraft side and everyone noticed from the get-go. Stormgate is a no-ty from me. I preferred the look of zero-space even thought I haven't tried it yet.

[@lordlopikong6940]

Even if the game is fully complete and the gameplay would be better than starcraft2. It still wouldnt matter since the factions and thier themes are uninteresting

[@--Nabe-rius--]

I can’t play simply due to the hotkeys. Being unable to customize my bindings 100% is a deal breaker

[@elliejohnson2786]

I like the graphics personally. When I consider graphics, I look at style, and then fidelity vs performance - If a game looks ugly, it doesn't matter. If a game looks ugly and performs poorly, then it does matter. Stormgate looks blocky and cartoony (a bit like SC2 or WC3) but it runs poorly. You touched on this and I think it's a very good point.

[@____GoMeZ____]

I’m on my knees begging for sc3. Please for the love of god blizz make it 😭

[@malekiththeeternityking5433]

I honestly hate it, I've played 30 some games and frankly it's just bad.

[@joshuajohnson714]

I don’t agree with bad, not great. It’s okay. But bad seems a little critical. But yeah I just don’t play it

[@l1ght217]

Same it's not very fun

[@Euler271]

Elaborate your thoughts

[@einerheit5871]

@@joshuajohnson714bad. period.

[@karlbjorklund7258]

You're just bad

[@tranquilitydove1155]

Damn, I see the people who complain about stormgate issues from Rando casual to pros to people who don't play RTS etc... I still find it crazy how everyone has the same basic complaints (like the art style for example, or the way unit designs don't mesh well together) And stormgate still say, oh we heard you but we ain't changing

[@Alekouzos]

The devs seems to love that game. So i guess overtime will be a great rts. Maybe better that Sc2? (Master Zerg here)

[@jacobunderwood4957]

From my first few games in the "beta", it was soo clear that they're missing virtually everything that makes their inspiration titles good. They're just flailing.

[@Joyexer]

Absolutely agree with the laggyness. I feel like Sc2 has at least as good grafics and it runs like 1000x smoother. With my i5 6600 and gtx 1070 (which is an ok setup I feel like) I had below 10 fps laag spikes while I had 144 fps at other times... In SC2 I always have like 200 fps or more its an insane difference.

[@pupper5580]

I literally quit playing SC2 because my computer was too laggy (even with minimum graphics and sound channels limited). Every time there was 200 vs 200 supply battle, my computer would die for 90 seconds and I would lose the game because of that. I did not want to spend money on a better computer, so instead I just quit playing. But my computer was a total piece of junk. Right now the computer I use is a total overkill for everything I use my computer for, but according to Stormgate requirements, it doesn't meet minimum requirements. For SC2 I could probably use this computer with max graphics and everything no problem. I think the Stormgate hardware requirements is a total joke, considering the game doesn't even look good or do anything special - it just decided to use a very heavy game-engine for no reason whatsoever - very newbie choice from the developers. You have better or equal graphics (for my personal eye) in the game Total Annihilation - and that game is from 1997 and it runs perfectly on an average computer from year 1997.

[@tertozer3543]

🧢

[@giovanemachado8339]

Happy to see you! Next time BattleAces do a beta test you should try it! I hope all these new RTS trive :)

[@HeroMarineSc2]

Unfortunately no, it's really not my type of gaming. No base building, 10 min limit & instant action makes it unexciting for me.

[@giovanemachado8339]

@@HeroMarineSc2 Yah I commented 1 second before you mentioned that on the video xD

[@0815Snickersboy]

AOE4 had the same problem with hotkeys. Thats why I dropped it after a few hours

[@sarah42e]

Beyond all Reason is the superior game over them all RTS.

[@ohaRega]

Starting off with a scout would not bother an AoE player, for instance. Just a thought.

[@francis9523]

I believe it is still promising but I'll choose Gates of Pyre over it

[@marian3476]

When I hear "creep simulator", I don't think of RTS tbh :D (21:12)

[@tenayasims]

Creep Simulator!! Now that’s going to be the next big rts 😜

[@koala-ytt]

If you like base building you should try AOE honestly, if AOE2 is not your thing there's always AOE3, AOE4 and AOM

[@HeroMarineSc2]

I am not really interested in any other game, I just played a bunch of Stormgate because how similar it is to SC2

[@Projolo]

All of those start with scouts

[@ppshchik]

Can someone actually tell me what Stormgate's lore is about?

[@unrighteous8745]

Graphics, unit variety, balance... these are all things that can get better with time. My FPS dipping below 30 with a late game army isn't something they can just "improve." The pathing is bad, and optimizing FPS will make pathing worse. Improving pathing will impact FPS. I'd be okay with the poor state of the game if its foundation was strong, but it's not. There's absolutely no way 3v3's are going to function when I can't hit 60 FPS with my $2000 gaming PC in a 1v1. I really don't want to be a hater, but I have zero faith in this game's future. I hope they prove me wrong.

[@Projolo]

Those things can be improved with with better coding, optimization is one of the last thing you do when making something.

[@unrighteous8745]

@@Projolo This is just not true. The code isn't good. They need to complete re-write it to make it run better. As I explained, optimizing the code means making the pathing less complex (less good). You can't simply improve it, it needs to be redone. Performance is do or die in RTS games; they should have focused on this from the beginning.

[@unrighteous8745]

@@Projolo Actually, just to elaborate... this is all assuming the performance issues are due to the unit AI. If they screwed up the animations really badly and that's what's causing issues, then yeah those can be fixed later.

[@lordtraxroy]

money doesnt matter the game its self matters more remember and look the nintendo games they werent with the highest specs in mind they were made for the customer enjoyment despite nintendo being harsch on fair use

[@ZakRoM]

Very easy question to answer: Broodwar.

[@Pistallion1]

The pathing issues and "lag" issues are unforgivable. I don't even care about balance and game design ideas since they seem to he good, but the game isnt finished and they squandered their chance at showing the world a potential good rts

[@HeroMarineSc2]

For me, balance and game design are more important because you can easily change them to create a fun meta. This is what initially ruined much of the enjoyment I had in the game. The technical issues weren’t even that frustrating for me, as it was still fun to test out the game and try new build orders. Obviously, the lag issues are unacceptable as well, I am being nice about it :D

[@kevinmills3329]

If I had a mmr of 1878 I would hate it too 🤣

[@hogarthjones3995]

That hotkey nonsense was tilting and I've never played

[@MrOceansEleven]

Anyone: Its a good game. Germans: I do think its not a bad game.

[@pupper5580]

In pure formal logic - not bad means "anything above bad" meaning below average or average.

[@markobucevic8991]

Whar are you smoking? Most people dont enjoy this game

[@maxrs07]

i think they intentionally made ai not perfect so that u get more bw/wc3 feel and since game is slower you can afford to micro the ai. I like that but takes a bit to get used to after sc2. They should also remove clumping from close standing units just like in bw (if u want to clump u use a far away unit in the same selection) since there is still a bunch of aoe to dodge. And its definitely a crime to have attack stop hold patrol on non usual/separate keys

[@HeroMarineSc2]

This is what I really hate: making units intentionally clunky to balance them. I don't want to deal with the frustration of illogical movement in the game; in my opinion, there are other ways to achieve balance for these units

[@sgtduckduck]

This is cope lmao

[@seeinred]

>Starts the video with the preface of "i only want to talk about the game and not the money, development time and other outside factors" >Immediately starts to criticize the game on graphics and performance, the things that quite literally dependent on the amount of money and time poured into the game. There's a ton to criticize about the game that truly doesn't have anything to do with money and all those "outside things". Starting with the art-style (which isn't money-dependent), and looks silly, how the game has no original bone in it's entire body, just slamming War3 and SC2 together. Yet you start with this, comparing early access game with the giant that is the SC2 after just about a decade of ongoing development. Why even bother at that point? Sure, there's an issue of Frostgiant themselves making an asinine decision of comparing and invoking SC2 in marketing of this game, so it's somewhat warranted, but still, it's such a low-hanging fruit to start on while there's a plenty of glaring issues at hand. Ironically, early versions of SC2 had the same cartoonish look to it as Stormgate, but that's neither here nor there. Just a fun fact.

[@speakertrees]

U should b able to communicate all u want. I rly wwwwwwish they did that

[@howlingwolf5213]

they should probably put a cap on the creep's money. I think it's their idea of trying to prevent mining out which in the end-game having small trickles of money keeps the excitement going a bit more since you can still have small skirmishes over little additional trickles of income but expanding should definitely be the main way to earn money

[@HeroMarineSc2]

The issue is that they changed such a major aspect in their first patch. I always thought that creeps gave some money, but not much-maybe 50-100 resources per camp. However, the fact that the resources nearly double each time the camp respawns, and it’s more like 150-300 resources for the first wave of camps, makes it very unenjoyable for me. The meta change that came with it (like dogs vs. dogs in VvV) really frustrated me when I played again after returning from EWC. There are even more things that bother me, like Celestials proxying something on one base every game. It’s a shame that the one thing that could actually be fixed, like proper meta or balance, isn’t even handled well in my opinion.

[@demetriogirardi2094]

The game DOES need to be better than sc2. It's its entire raison d'être. It has no cool new setting or campaign or mechanics, or anything besides a promise to the sc2 fanbase to try and be a better sc2. They chose a pretty narrow hole to pigeon themselves into and they absolutely need to deliver on it.

[@HeroMarineSc2]

It definitely needs to get close to SC2 level, but if Blizzard ever decided to put some effort into SC2 again, I think Stormgate would stand no chance

[@sarfqersarweqar]

@@HeroMarineSc2 But it' s blizzard, better take care about mobile Diablo Immortal, when I see what this company does in the past is rly joke

[@wareloski2137]

Funny how now everyone hates it, but before release every streamer was super hyper xDDD

[@HeroMarineSc2]

Well, I hadn't played it before it came out. Obviously, you have to try something before you can tell whether you like it. Also, I don’t hate it. The main reason I won’t play it for now is because of the current meta and last patches. I think it’s a fine game, but compared to SC2, it still has a long way to go.

[@sgtduckduck]

That's just how things work? Do you have a caretaker?

[@allanshpeley4284]

@@sgtduckduck I think his point was this game was disingenuously being pushed by nearly every RTS content creator in the hopes of making the big bucks down the road.

[@sgtduckduck]

@@allanshpeley4284 yeah people play RTS and create RTS content for the big bucks lmao