Myth #2 - Does shallowing your swing really work?

[@swingsearcher7536]

Very good explanation about what "shallow" is and how it affects the swing and impact. As far as I understand that shallowing move theory it isn't so much about angle of attack, but shall enable the golfer to increase clubhead speed, because the club comes more from behind. This shall encourage the golfer to open the chest more thru impact and stabilise the wrist action (lead wrist not so fast going into extension).

[@ericfraser6094]

Finally, an honest broker!!! Only thru truth will we improve. Golf needs you! I'm a 2 hdcp.

[@michaelb4546]

Its criminal that this man does not have more subscribers.

[@TheCampsies]

Thanks for this one Tony, everyone has jumped on Shallow the Path, it's the red hot topic at the moment. I'll bet there is a lot of perfectly good golf swings getting tied in knots trying to achieve this.

[@jasonsechrist1]

Mashie niblick messed me up for two years.

[@TonyLuczak]

Golfers! I had the opportunity to meet Dr. Kwon at the 2012 World Scientific Congress of Golf. This is part of his biomechanical research of the golf swing. Unfortunately, due to my class schedule, we were not able to do our study of long drive golfers last year, but I hope to that one day. Shallowing of the golf club creates a greater helical trajectory making getting the golf club back to the ball more challenging. Then why do it! Reactionary Golf works to maximize a semi-planar motion t improve delivery into the functional swing plane (FSP) creating straighter golf shots. "A spiral trajectory is essentially caused by a rotation around an axis and a translation along the axis, which means that two different forces act on the clubhead simultaneously: the on- plane force parallel to the FSP (such as the centripetal force) and the off-plane force perpendicular to the FSP. This additional off-plane force makes a spiral swing mechanically more complex than the semi-planar swing (with more room for errors/inconsistency), and one may speculate that the semi-planar swing is the superior swing style between the two."

[@matthewsmall7589]

Great Video Tony. Keep up the great work

[@TonyLuczak]

Thanks!! Hope the video wasn't too choppy, trying to do a long video wasn't as easy as I thought it would be.

[@nielsstorm8275]

Hey Tony. The way that Mr. Malaska teach the flattening on the downswing, is because his approach to the impact is so closed, that just before the hands reach the hips he is all ready released the club. Therefore it makes sense for his club head speed. He teaches the back towards the target, for longer time, just like Mr. Rose. There is different ways for different players, i am personally, fan of your teaching. And for me it works better. Thanks allot and happy New year.

[@TonyLuczak]

Niels Storm Thanks. That is the key, finding out what works for you. My goal is to reduce the number of adjustments or thoughts in the swing. Good luck this season!!

[@BEBETTERGOLF]

Niels Storm Justin Rose always gives great keys.

[@TonyLuczak]

Agree, swing thoughts work differently for each golfer! Happy New Year!

[@migbgold3191]

Great video Tony! Even though I'm an Ole Miss grad, I totally respect your teaching method and analysis. This is the first I have heard of the functional swing plane -- but it looked to me like when the clubhead is at the top of backswing and the hands are initially dropping down, that shaft plane then matches to when the clubhead gets pivoted in front of the hands as it is directed into impact. And what apparently a lot of current teachers are instructing is to have that shaft plane start down super shallow, which (in order to hit the ball at all), requires a manipulation of the shaft plane as the clubhead pivots in front of the hands-- but the shaft plane changes to a much steeper angle relative to what it was as the club was initially being dropped on a (far too) shallow angle. At least that is what I observed in your video -- and I totally get it! You want to create a muscle memory that creates a matching shaft angle relative to the initial dropping of the hands and have that angle be the same as when the clubhead pivots in front of the hands as it gets delivered to the ball. That is what I observed -- is that proper way to look at what you were describing in illustrating the "functional" swing plane (the red and white lines)?

[@TonyLuczak]

You got us this year both in football and last night's b-ball game!! I'd use the term neuromemory not muscle memory (picky science thing) , but you are right on. The better the right arm can move the club in sync with the body, the placement of the club towards the FSPlane is more planar like. Kwon's research shows 2 basic types of club head trajectory, semi-planar and spiral (shallowing). The difficulty of the shallowing or spiral trajectory is how easy or difficult is it to get the club back to the ball. Who is your pick on Monday?? The real SEC championship.

[@migbgold3191]

Thanks Tony -- my family usually supports the West Division teams when the Rebels are out of it; so, we're looking at 'Bama with the victory. I need to look at that Kwon research and commit to that semi-planar action

[@TonyLuczak]

We met in 2012 at the World Scientific Congress of Golf. I wasn't able to do my research project with Kwon and the long drive guys due to class schedule, but he is one of the best when it comes to biomechanics.

[@emncaity]

This is where I think Haney is also smart in insisting that there is a right plane that is neither too steep nor too flat, and the more you vary from it the more adjustments and inconsistency you'll be forced into, just as (it seems to me) TL is saying here. I also wonder if this has something to do with the observable shift in plane from somewhere around waist-high or the set of the hands, which for good players with neutral actions is typically parallel (or nearly so) to the plane in the lower part of the arc (waist-high-to waist-high, approximately). This is a little technical, but it's clear that the mix of physical characteristics any given player has can make the space between those two parallel planes bigger or smaller. The bigger it is, the more the "drop" between upper and lower as the downswing progresses from beginning to impact, and that can cause some difficulties, although again, because of physical differences I'm not sure you can minimize that drop in some players the way you can in others. You can figure out a way around it by training a player to be more patient in transition, to keep the shoulders under control and responding instead of driving the action, or other such measures depending on the player. (It's no good for _any_ player to shove the club around with the shoulders anyway. Even if you do keep the club pretty close to the right plane, which most players won't -- dominating with the shoulders tends to get a person instantly steep and outside on the downswing -- still, driving the downswing with the rotary action of the upper body and shoulders will tend to keep the club on that upper plane way too long, leading to one of those "gahh, have to go find the ball" rescue missions as the player approaches impact.) But back to Tony's video here: If I'm hearing him right, part of what he's saying is that a "shallowing" motion at the top may be necessary if you're overly upright to begin with -- starting down on the right plane angle is better than starting down on a steep one -- but to just go out there and teach that "shallowing" every player needs to work on and do intentionally is just not right. For one thing, if you go too shallow (as Tony demonstrates in the vid), at some point the club has to find a way to get down to the ball. If that's happening late in the downswing, you'll have this sudden distortion in, or warping of, the plane that is really inefficient and inconsistent, not to mention being yet another way that force gets dissipated into the ground instead of into the back of the ball propelling it forward. This is really due to the club's tendency to stay on the plane angle you start it swinging on. If your angle is right at the beginning of the downswing, it'll be slightly above the original shaft angle (or takeaway plane angle) because of the set of the hands and the need for the trailing elbow and arm to fold out of the way, but it'll try to stay on the angle unless you do something to alter or distort it. It _is_ true, as another poster says here, that there's a natural shallowing effect for most players if you start from the ground up instead of from the shoulders down. Not an extreme move, just a natural one that's appropriate to the task. It all starts with Tony's approach (see a list of the greatest teachers in the history of the game who've had the same approach) that it is the swinging of the arms that is the central fact or nature of the golf swing. A lot of people misinterpret that to mean that the arms should "lead" the downswing or that the body doesn't rotate and move in support, the lower body doesn't do its part, etc. Of course that's totally wrong. If you tell a normally athletic person to put a ball in his hand and throw it as far as he comfortably can, you'll see him step into the throw, turn his shoulders to enable a longer range of motion for the throw, "rotate" in his forward motion, etc., but it all starts with his intent to throw the ball with his arm and hand. In a golf swing, unless you tie a person in knots with all kinds of technical thoughts (and misconceptions) about each different part of the body, driving this and torquing that and "levering" with this other part, if instead you let a person feel the swinging of the arms and club, almost everybody will instinctively do something with the rest of the body to support and enable that swinging motion. So for most normally athletic players, it's a pretty natural thing to start the downswing with the lower body as a result of the intent to swing the arms with some degree of force (if you "drive" the club from the top down, you'll find out that you break down the swinging motion and end up with a thrusting or shoving motion, almost always steep, outside, and into the ground). When you start down or transition with at least something close to the right kind of lower-body action, the plane will shallow a little for most players. That's different than making a conscious effort to get the club as flat as possible during the transition. The "shallowing" thing is one of those bits of advice that will work for a few people who happen to be too upright and for whom the right plane will feel very flat. So for that person, it'll be beneficial to feel "shallowing to flat" at the start of the downswing. Or it will for a little while. Chances are he'll end up overdoing it, in one of those "whole bottle of aspirin" things Harvey Penick used to talk about. I'm not saying guys like Leadbetter were wrong in describing the shallowing action. It's there to some extent in the swings of most great players, and a lot of what Lead says is more detailed observation of the specifics of what goes on with great swings than a matter of advising you to do that particular thing to the point of overdoing it. But anyway, less technically: If you get too shallow at the beginning of the downswing, you've lost the club's relationship with the ball and will have to go find it with the clubhead or you'll swing right across the top of the ball and miss it entirely. Mostly, finding it will require you to figure out how to get back down to it at the point your body and brain perceive that you're likely to miss it, which will leave you with a swing that looks flat and "shallowing" to the observer but will actually be too steep where it counts.

[@TonyLuczak]

stephen f that is one heck of a comment!!

[@painless4785]

Always used to think 'shallowing the club' referred to angle of attack, made natural sense. Till recently when i though i had finally found out what shallowing meant/... and then i find you. urgh, golf is frustrating.

[@jboy5744]

I like your theory but and it’s a big but a picture is truly worth darn near all the words used. Demonstrate and choose easier colors for visibility!

[@TonyLuczak]

Over Thetop thanks! Will do.

[@paulwoolnough3770]

In my humble opinion, the golf swing can be way over thought. My only swing thought i have now is throw club head at the ball like a under arm pitch. I swing with right arm only, the left just goes for the ride. I have found out my body just reacts as if i`m skimming a stone on the water sort of feel or hammering a nail into the back of the ball i can absolutely smash it this way. I have seen countless videos on the golf swing, but in the end i have always come back to the way i just described.

[@harleytowler9187]

AMEN !! I AM 80 YRS. OLD . STARTED GOLF AT AGE 54. A FEW THOUSAND DOLLARS IN LESSONS OVER THE YEARS WASTED. I DO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. WORKS FOR ME.

[@ImperfectGolfer]

I think that Tony is making a mistake trying to postulate that there is some causal connection between a clubshaft shallowing phenomenon in the early downswing between P4 and P6 and the clubhead angle of attack. The reason why some golfers shallow their clubshaft in the early-mid downswing has much more to do with the type of swing style they prefer (eg. Hardy one plane swing style rather than Hardy's two plane swing style) and also with the type of hand release action and arm release action that they prefer to use through impact. I have noted that most long-drive competitors do not shallow their clubshaft during their early-mid downswing. They usually come straight down the TSP and they do not shallow their clubshaft to a shallower plane (elbow plane or even shalllower to the hand plane) between P6 and impact. Here is an example - Jamie Sadlowski. perfectgolfswingreview.net/SadlowskiOnPlane.jpg The red path traces his hand arc path. Note that his clubshaft does not shallow-out to below his hand arc path and his clubshaft is on the TSP at impact. I think that swinging down the TSP without any clubshaft-shallowing action is very conducive to maximising clubhead speed at impact. However, many pro golfers (like Adam Scott and Henrik Stenson and Justin Rose and Rory McIlroy) prefer to shallow their clubshaft down from the TSP to the elbow plane between P4 and P6, and that clubshaft-shallowing action has the advantage of decreasing the speed of clubface rotation per unit amount of clubhead travel during the release of PA#3 (which happens in the late downswing in all golfers who use a weak or neutral or slightly strong left hand grip). I have described this particular issue in this short review paper at perfectgolfswingreview.net/VP6.html Finally, there are some golfers (eg. Hardy one-plane golfers like Hunter Mahan and Ben Hogan) who shallow their clubshaft even more during the early-mid downswing between P4 and P6, and they get their clubshaft down to the hand plane by P6. Here is an example - Ben Hogan. perfectgolfswingreview.net/HoganNoRollRelease.jpg Note that Ben Hogan's clubshaft is on the hand plane between P6 and P7.5. That has the advantage of decreasing the amount of clubface roll per unit degree of clubhead travel during the release of PA#3 (which happens pre-impact), but it also has an additional benefit and it allows Ben Hogan to more efficiently perform a CP-arm release action combined with a no-roll hand release action through impact between P7 and P7.5 (as seen in those capture images). That combination of a "CP-arm release action + a no-roll hand release action" offers the golfer an ability to have the maximum control of the clubface through impact and the ability to have the lowest ROC through the immediate impact zone between P7 and P7.2, which is very good for accuracy. Jeff.

[@Wesquire]

"I think that Tony is making a mistake trying to postulate that there is some causal connection between a clubshaft shallowing phenomenon in the early downswing between P4 and P6 and the clubhead angle of attack." He is literally saying the exact opposite of that.

[@simoncook2251]

Good video Tony but I think shallowing is what the vast majority of tour pros do. The difference is tour pros do it with their lower body rather than trying to manipulate the wrists and hands like most instructors are telling amateurs to do

[@TonyLuczak]

Simon Cook I have a new video coming out showing Justin Thomas’s Swing. I see very little intentional shallowing. Sergio used to have more than he does now, which is my opinion on why he won. I do think 2D camera and 3D space is challenging too. Some do but for amateurs, too difficult in my opinion.

[@simoncook2251]

I agree Tony. It is very difficult for amateurs to shallow the downswing especially when it is taught as an extra "intentional" move. It really means everything has to stop while the hands and arms drop (and rotate) independent to the body rather than with it. I struggled with this for years until i worked out moving pressure into the ground with the front leg in the transition did it for me naturally without having to time a move with the hands at the top.

[@TonyLuczak]

Excellent Simon!!!

[@Jackybug]

Excellent advice.

[@motionalysisbyken]

Thank you for this great video. I really place this "shallowing is great' in the same basket with 'Stack and Tilt'. Both are Marketing BS !. Congratulations to you.

[@johncoscia5258]

Hi Tony , is it efficient or detrimental to use the left arm, only to help the right arm lift vertically reducing the stress of gravity then arms body hit, driving the right arm for sequence ? Great theory , breakthrough for me . Thanks

[@stevenolmstead]

For me, tension in the right hand/forearm (right-handed golfer) has been the culprit in causing a too steep angle of attack. Most likely coming from the tendency to try to "hit" the ball. This tension delays the natural extension of the right arm in the downswing causing the steepness,. I am sure the desire to create "lag" in the swing can also lead to this unwanted tension.

[@TonyLuczak]

Tension kills. Once tension enters the arms, the body takes over and the swing comes over the top. Learning how to move without the tension is key. Using a hammer is a simple analogy.

[@stevenolmstead]

Thanks - unseasonably warm weather here in Iowa this week - so I will definitely give this a try!

[@rexxengineering4653]

Part of this is the whole feel vs. real problem. Many people who come down steep fell like they're not. My local pro will tell me to come down on as flat a plane as possible. I feel like I'm completely horizontal into the ball. Then I see on video that I was very vertical. I am amazed how my feelings differ from what I see on video. So trying to feel the other extreme may have some value, even though it's not the correct objective. For me, the cure to steepness seems to be right hip depth. If I motor the downswing with my arms, while keep my right hip deep, it's almost impossible to be steep and hit the ball.

[@TonyLuczak]

You got it!!!

[@WALTERMITTIE]

Does a more circular golf swing. i.e. steep shaft on the way back and shallow on the way down make the club swing faster because it uses the inertia of the club head better. Is this the real benefit of shallowing the shaft on the way down compared to the the backswing.

[@TonyLuczak]

alh disco inertia is a resistance to change. So it requires more energy on our part to adjust path trajectories. I’d rather see less change so the energy can be applied to the club in a more efficient manner, which will create greater club head speed. Look at linear velocity through impact to determine optimal swing.

[@rexxengineering4653]

Tony - you and Mark Crossfield have both proven the point that it is possible to swing on a flat plane and hit down on the ball or swing on an upright plane and hit level or even up on the ball. AOA seems to relate to ball position versus low point, not plane. The problems seem to come in when people swing back on one plane and then start down on a steeper plane than their backswing. They will miss the ball or hit way left from there. So if they try to shallow their downswing, what they are really doing is counteracting their tendency to steepen it. They just end up swinging on the same plane back and down. Actually swing down very shallow would not seem that helpful.

[@TonyLuczak]

One thing I'm going to look into is whether a flatter path trajectory of the club head requires a quicker shift left in order to straighten the face during AOA. Yes, low point, ball position, and numerous other factors influence AOA and trying to correct an improper hand path with shaft lay down doesn't seem to work for most golfers.

[@ShallowedOutGolf]

Lead hip low, no bump and leaving the arms alone works for me.

[@steveng8727]

Hi Tony, enjoy your teaching style and info. Today at the range i felt "the arms and hands have NO muscles" in other words they are very relaxed and can only be moved by the turning of my hips, torso, shoulders....i seem to get effortless speed this way...makes sense?

[@TonyLuczak]

Steven Grace trust what you feel to make your best swings. Probably having less tension allows everything to flow better. It’s all about coordinating the club with your arms and body.

[@rteach1]

I'm curious about the piping that you used for the functional swing plane. Is that a commercial product or something that you built yourself? Thanks.

[@TonyLuczak]

rteach1 homemade. Lowes great place to build whatever teaching aids you need.

[@bobcunninghamgolf]

PVC plastic pipe

[@georgegonczarek2501]

HNY Tony. I have a problem with keeping focused for 4hrs during a competition round. During practice I don t have a problem focusing, but as soon as I start a completion I m good for a while but concentration comes and goes. Have to keep reminding myself. Any suggestions

[@TonyLuczak]

george gonczarek 1 minute focus for each shot. Relax in between shots. This takes practice but learning how to turn it off and on is more doable.

[@bluesy1234]

What I don't get is Hogan said that any golfer who starts the downswing with the lower body will have a lower plane on the downswing compared to the backswing. This required no manipulation. If the club broke his pane of glass on the downswing it was over the top. If he's right there is no reason to intentionally change the plane. It will happen anyway.

[@TonyLuczak]

bluesy1234 correct if it did work that way but golf is a learned skill. Due to how why rotate the pelvis through the use of the lats and obliques, rotation generally causes an over the top move if there is no direct arm movement.

[@slmmcgee8686]

If you utilize the right side of the body to whip/throw/sling the clubhead through the ball, in most cases the lower body will naturally move as it should. Like Tony mentions, most of the elite players likely aren't actually implementing movement patterns the way they describe them in writing or videos. I personally used to actively try to rotate my hips first from the top of the backswing (a la Hogan) and it caused terrible inconsistency in strike, shot shape and upper body movement. When I started shifting my movement patterns to be more focused on what folks like Tony, Monte Scheinblum and Mike Malaska articulate, my swing and game began to transform entirely for the better. This isn't to say that there aren't multiple ways to develop a good golf swing. George Gankas has a more lower-body oriented movement pattern he teaches with great success. So does the MySwingEvolution guy. But as Tony points out, it's about what is most effective and simple for the individual. To me, the lower body emphasis swings are a bit too complicated and end up requiring more timing to be consistent with strike and thus control. I've actually gained some additional distance and a lot more consistency and ability to control my golf shots by mostly forgetting about the lower body. Everything is so much better synchronized for me.

[@MisterDaveB]

Yeah, I think you talk a lot of sense here - found you looking for descriptions of the benefits of the feet together drill. I shall work my way through your content, but this video poses an interesting challenge on the popular advice to shallow the club shaft plane.

[@TonyLuczak]

MisterDaveB yes sir!!

[@bepatient1000]

To me angle of attack is determined by how high the hands are and where the low point of the swing is at impact.

[@TonyLuczak]

keith hacker that is definitely a big part of it.

[@hughreilly2023]

The club never shallows it’s the latest mass hysteria.

[@TonyLuczak]

Agree 100%. It’s a 3D trajectory path.

[@sir_nicks_allot_8902]

I have never felt more confused than I am with current instruction. It's as bad as x factor.

[@reyeschase1]

This guy just can't accept the fact there are so many people who have success not using his method.

[@TonyLuczak]

Chase Reyes If you have success doing something, do it! I know what works for my students and from the research I’ve studied and collected.

[@reyeschase1]

That's great! I do have a slight problem with the I'm right and everyone else is wrong mentality your channel promotes.

[@reyeschase1]

Diversity in effective teaching methods is exactly what golf needs. As a student of higher learning I would expect that to be something you would appreciate. Unfortunately, that is not the tone this channel or your instruction portrays. That is just my opinion.

[@TonyLuczak]

I'm posting some research by Dr. Kwon as a public comment. Dr. Kwon is one of the best biomechanical professors in the US, and I've learned many things from his research. From a motor control perspective, everyone learns their unique way far beyond traditional learning styles. Unfortunately, not everyone has the understanding and sometimes education that supports what they say in their instruction. I've been pounded on for years about the role of the right arm, so I can see what you are saying about my tone. I appreciate the feedback!

[@reyeschase1]

I can appreciate the research, as I am an electrical engineer by profession. Let's move away from the science just for the sake of conversation. While the research is helpful, is it ultimately necessary? What is the goal here? To make golfers better. I think we can both agree on that. If instructionors use these "myths", and they continue to produce better players. Is that wrong? I think not. In my opinion the average golfer could care less about bio-metrics and more about results. However an instructor arrives to these results is much less important in the grand scheme of the game.

[@KiwiGolfUS]

Hey Tony I’m not sure where you’re getting your information about shallowing, and I agree it’s a very “vague” term. If you look at guy like George Gankas, or Andrew Rice I believe they explain the concept the best. You’re absolutely right about instructors using the new “fad” as a marketing technique, but I don’t believe you can quite count yourself as above this technique. Golf Instruction is a competitive market, and it’s tough to be politically correct with your Marketing. You seem like you really care about your subscribers which is honorable. Why not get away from this I’m better than you bullshit and just teach your theory??

[@TonyLuczak]

I appreciate your comments,.I use emails from members and subscribers as base concepts to produce the videos. This is not me better than you, even though I do have an issue with arrogance due to a lack of education/knowledge. To improve golfers, it isn't always about what you say, its about how golfers respond to what you say. You know this! I've had many golfers tell me they are hitting the ball great based on a lesson, only to find out their swing thought isn't exactly what I said, its their interpretation that matters. These videos are trying to show the majority of golfers who are wasting their time and money trying to do something that doesn't work very well for the 64.2% to 90% of the golfers out there. With 25 years of teaching experience, MS degree in neuromechanics/biomechanics, and almost a PhD in Human Factors Engineering (which is all about how the human works in systems), I do believe that I can provide information that is helpfully to most golfers and that is what I'm doing. I'm not a better person and hopefully all of our goals is to improve golfers regardless of technique.

[@KiwiGolfUS]

Tony Luczak I can agree with a lot of your smaller points on educating your students, and I agree the words “shallow in transition” and “steep in transition” isn’t an absolute for Angle of Attack. The motion however behind the poor phrasing is correct. You stated to believe that “shallowing” the club was to get the shaft close to horizontal by left arm parallel on the downswing. Well maybe that’s the type of info you receive when you do a “quick” google search. Remember Google never lies... Once you get into a real search with an open scientific mind, you’ll realize, “shallowing” is simply a transitional move to get the club shaft parallel to the original shaft line by left arm parallel. Now is there a bunch of ignorant instructors out there teaching idiotic ideas on shallowing... fuck yea lol If your theory gets popular, will there be a bunch of idiots teaching your theory incorrect.... yes... ohhh yes. So instead of discounting a whole particular motion that all the greats do (I’m sure someone will find one exception.... there always is) why not discuss what “shallowing” really means, and bring to light common misconceptions?? Thanks your Favorite Kiwicoach🥝🙏👊

[@TonyLuczak]

mikesogacademy good points Mike! You are correct by a quick google search, it seemed like 95% of everyone I ever heard of was talking about shallowing the club. So that is my inference to what I saw. I still fight Golf pro vs scientists mindset. Marketing is still embedded in there. Check out Dr. Kwon’s spiral trajectory research. It all moves back to functional swing plane. We are getting new software that will allow us to measure trajectories I’m trying to find a pic someone sent me showing a crazy shallow move where the hands went way over top and clubhead way behind. No way to hit the ball. Thanks for keeping me inline!

[@johncoscia5258]

Hi Tony , is it efficient or detrimental to use the left arm, only to help the right arm lift vertically reducing the stress of gravity then arms body hit, driving the right arm for sequence ? Great theory , breakthrough for me . Thanks

[@TonyLuczak]

john coscia the left arm needs to be involved. It facilitates additional clubhead speed as the upper body rotates. It does assist the right to set the club at the top. However, if it becomes too dominant then it can lead to inconsistencies. Go by how it feels when you hit your best shots.

[@johncoscia5258]

Hello again Tony , thanks for your clear and simple answer . No menusha as you say . My flatter swings are caused by my left arm i now know . Much appreciated

[@TonyLuczak]

Personally, I use my right to set it at the top as you would throwing a ball. All the best!