N T Wright on Same-Sex Marriage

Here, Prof. N T Wright (Oxford) offers an observation regarding the same-sex marriage debate.

[@lieshtmeiser5542]

Redefinition of words... Very powerful! And previous generations have really failed us in allowing these words to be redefined without any real fight.

[@canusnurse]

I believe in part by normalizing such concepts through television, we have been subject to mass brainwashing, but it is also not too late to say "enough".

[@JohnBarr-r5b]

As a St Andrews graduate I'm embarrassed to see him wear the graduate tie while being so bigoted.

[@rrickarr]

Wow! He really gets down to business in raising the fact that we must be careful about changing the meaning of words!

[@Bouncybon]

I like this N T Wright chap. This is the first time I've come across the man but he is clearly reasonable, thoughtful, wise and a very nice fellow. I shall go and find out more about him.....

[@zarnoffa]

How’d that go?

[@FrostWight]

I’m curious too. He is a very helpful thinker and communicates well

[@tommarshall3365]

Don’t bother. Stick to the Scriptures.

[@davidprice9792]

Well I do enjoy listening to NT Wright speak he is intelligent and I love this particular little clip. But the clip on women preachers he is way off base. And says there is women disciples and there should be women preachers. Romans 16 there isn't a woman disciple. Go to the original text and Paul says this person is well known among the Apostles. Big deal i am well known among preachers here in Nicaragua but I am not a preacher. I am here to support local preachers. And the fact the Bible has guide lines for Preachers and Deacons and one of them is to be a Husband of one wife. NT Wright is wrong on that one and is doing the bidding for Satan on that issue which is very sad.

[@neilmccall5311]

@@davidprice9792 Nonsense Wright has the track record of deep biblical thinking and I can't see for the life of me how Satan would benefit from opening church ministry to gifted and well-taught women. I don't think the Timothy verses exclude women so much as excluding polygamists. He tickles your ears by being against gay marriage so you expect him to just trot out the fundamentalist line on everything.

[@jonpool9030]

The battle for truth is fought over the meaning of words.

[@michaelbrickley2443]

Jon Pool, much as the atheist has changed the meaning of faith. Faith means TRUST. It does not mean believing without evidence. These are scary times. I was always for civil unions because of civil rights. The right objected loudly and someone said, well, let’s see if we can get the Supreme Court...now, all the things people projected are happening. Google interesting partnerships. I’m sure I read where a woman married herself. SMH. Marriage was the only thing to survive Adam & Eve being kicked out of the Garden.

[@Martial-Mat]

Word meanings evolve to suit usage - usage is not constrained by dictionaries. It's facile to point to a disctionary definition and declare that "THIS is what xxx means because the dictionary says so."

[@Martial-Mat]

@oneconcerned No he's not. Truth is what comports with reality - words are simply the fuzzy tools used to describe, often equally poorly defined things. Saying "right is still right" demonstrates how poorly you've considered yuor own words. What is "right?" By whose standards? People are not rebelling against god because they want to do their own thing - they are rejecting the whole concept because it's patently ridiculous on a thousand different levels.

[@jonpool9030]

@@Martial-Mat who mentioned a dictionary?

[@Martial-Mat]

@@jonpool9030 I did - in response to you saying " truth is fought over the meaning of words." Word meanings are not constrained by definitions, but grow to reflect usage. 100 years ago, "gay" meant jolly, now it is used simultaneously to mean foolish, as an insult, and to mean homosexual. Words have ALWAYS been malleable and contextual.

[@busby777]

The way I see it, if the government sells you a marriage license, that is a civil arrangement that I can accept. However, do not demand that the church perform a ceremony for you. Some churches might, while others might not.

[@robjackson4050]

then don't do any weddings at your church if your gonna hate based on your book

[@matthewstokes1608]

@@robjackson4050 mind your own damned business what a congregation of Christians does or does not do - including whom they marry - you bigoted, fascistic, puritanical zealot.

[@jamesfitzgerald1684]

@@robjackson4050 Not preforming a ceremony becasue of values that we have is not hate. We will not give up our values to please the world. If you think thats hateful then so be it.

[@deborahgrantham7387]

@@robjackson4050Christians don’t make the rules of the God we believe in, we just follow them. If you don’t believe in the Christian God, you don’t need to follow his rules. Why would you want to be married in Christian church? There are plenty of churches that call themselves christian that pick and choose the social rules they prefer and ignore the rest. They are just a social club, feel free to join and be married in them. They aren’t following Christ. The Bible clearly states the rules in both the Old and New Testaments. You can Google them if you want. Marriage from the beginning is between one man and one woman. All sex outside of this arrangement is forbidden. It didn’t change with Jesus. We aren’t haters. We follow our rules, you aren’t a follower of Christ so you don’t need to follow the rules for Christians. I won’t go to your wedding, but not because I hate you, but because I can’t celebrate in an occasion that God says is sin. I still care for people that I know, who are not Christians and that have all sorts of sexual arrangements. I have dinner with them, I don’t go to their weddings.

[@vhawk1951kl]

The meanings of words are not written in the sky or set in stone. It is infantile to suppose that any words have so to say 'official meaning as if all are children and the grownups decide eveything as the kinderlander appear to supose. Marriage is joining together of sorts for the purpose of breeding which of course sewertites are either not inclined or unable to do.

[@jimquantic]

Here is the issue for me: I don't believe anyone should dictate to the Church, the Synagogue, to the Mosque, to the Temple what THEY define as marriage. BUT, when we leave those religious places ALONE to make their own call--why does anyone care if the CIVIL gives the same CIVIL RIGHTS to a gay couple? No one is dictating to the religious who are free to simply NOT recognize that union (a gay union) so I'm not sure I understand the concern. Can someone give me the other side of that argument?

[@ThePossumone]

They have continually pressured religious organisations and schools to bless and affirm these relationships though and that was always going to be the problem

[@keithwilson6060]

Wow! Where has this guy been in my conscious awareness. He is brilliant! “When anybody, pressure groups, governments, civilizations, suddenly change the meaning of key words, you really should watch out.” This is exactly what has happened. It’s not a benign change.

[@robertjsmith]

yes specially when those groups or religions condemn minorities like jews,gays, and gypsies.

[@noelhausler2911]

www.researchgate.net/publication/254079554_No_Kingdom_of_God_for_Softies_or_What_Was_Paul_Really_Sayingquest_1_Corinthians_69-10_in_Context

[@noelhausler2911]

www.academia.edu/2507704/_An_Argument_Against_the_Use_of_the_Word_Homosexual_In_English_Translations_of_the_Bible_The_Heythrop_Journal_51_no._5_2010_723-729

[@noelhausler2911]

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0146107915577097

[@matthewstokes1608]

@@robertjsmith ... or majority groups as well.

[@paulgrieve7031]

Wow a sane man speaks! How refreshing! Also a very knowledgable and intelligent man. I wonder what the questioner and audience thought as it’s cut off

[@paulettegray7625]

The answer may be in the video "Facing the Canon with Tom Wright"

[@Awurabena1]

Sin degrades a nation. Breaks it down slowly. Sin decays the human anyway. Proverbs 14:34 (CJB) 34 Righteousness makes a nation great, but sin degrades any people.

[@officialmoderator1]

Religious fundamentalism destroys civilizations. Homosexuality is a normal part of human life, nothing to be stigmatized.

[@officialmoderator1]

Fundamentalist religion destroys civilizations.. Look at Americans bible belt and its shameful history of slavery, racism and ignorance.

[@chrissonofpear1384]

So what did Leviticus 25:46 do to it? Or Samuel 15:15?

[@officialmoderator1]

Being a religious fundamentalist is a sin. Being an anti-gay beigot is a sin. Being gay is not.

[@stueyapstuey4235]

The notion of sin degrades the human. That's what it was designed, by theologians, to do. Any person can redress a grievance, even really tortuous things - but, only God can forgive a sin. Even a trivial one (though, a theologian will tell you that there are no trivial sins - and they'll tell you that because, it's their job).

[@HrvojeSL]

God bless you, Bishop Wright! the more I hear from you,, the more I appreciate your keen insights and faithfulness to orthodoxy.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_displaying_homosexual_behavior homosexuality is the norm.

[@gabepearson6104]

@@HarryNicNicholas ok? That’s clearly not true, but that aside, why does it matter if it’s normal? Doesn’t mean it isn’t a sin.

[@matthewstokes1608]

@@HarryNicNicholas it is not normal... It is tolerated - but marriage of two men is repulsive to the majority of decent thinking people.

[@gerryquinn5578]

Thoughtful answer. Beware redefinitionism. 100% agree.

[@Dr-Curious]

It's a terribly weak case. Words are redefined and weaponised all the time. What do you think calling humans who don't agree with you "evil" or "deceived" enables for the church?

[@stueyapstuey4235]

'Not wishing to call on anything Christian or religious at all...' followed by 'What is so important about Genesis 1 is God calling into being binaries...' -Hmm. No tension of cases there, especially when called in, conveniently, to support a point of view. It seems a strange form of inclusiveness to accept that 'marriage' across cultures has not been our (western) accepted paradigm of Husband and Wife and then claim - this same sex deviation is a step too far, because Genesis equates binary complementarity with the way God wants things.

[@elliotalderson8358]

@@stueyapstuey4235 but your assumption that things are binary the way you'd like to believe is not true. The history you're taught is influenced by those who want you have that opinion. There are many examples of non-heterosexual relationships and marriages throughout history. The binary aspect is part of a story and should not be taken so Seriously. It's full of holes and really only makes sense through the narrative lense. Sure that seems like the majority but look at evolution. Many religions denied it or reformed. The same will happen for sexuality and the 'exact definition of marriage' as if that mattered.

[@farrex0]

So when the definitions of freedom and human rights, were changed to include everyone. When rights went from being rights for some to equal rights... How was that wrong? The only reason you agree is because you already agreed, but apply that argument to anything else and it falls flat. Definitions change all the time, and words can ave multiple definitions, language is always evolving. Changing the definition has no inherent value nor it signifies anything, what is important is the content of the definition not the act. His example of Nazi Germany is in no way wrong because the definition was changed, but because the definition was changed to something atrocious. His argument amounts to Nazis did it , therefore it is wrong, but if I say that Nazis wore clothes, would you go naked from now on?

[@gerryquinn5578]

@@farrex0 : Redefinitionism does not equate with the gradual change in meaning .

[@bovnycccoperalover3579]

Orwell warned of the use of words to change meanings and culture in '1984'.

[@officialmoderator1]

The Religious Right re-defines words in order to promote its ideological dominance. Like calling a zygote a "baby." Or calling Creationism a "science."

[@officialmoderator1]

​@Visto che What about the woman who does not want to give birth? She has different feelings about that zygote. A significant proportion of zygotes never grow into babies anyway, they are flushed out of the woman's body but at that stage it is considered quite different than the death of a baby.

[@officialmoderator1]

@Visto che Just as an acorn is not the same as an oak tree, a zygote is not the same as a baby. You only want to ignore the difference so you can have an excuse to bully women.

[@officialmoderator1]

@Visto che Forcing women to give birth against their will is bullying of the worst sort. Abortion is a responsible, courageous decision that women do not enter into lightly.

[@officialmoderator1]

@Visto che After the woman is already pregnant it is too late to tell her she shouldn't have had sex. Either she has access to abortion or you are forcing her to give birth against her will.

[@taramain1251]

Language changes constantly. why is it an issue that the social definition of marriage has changed? What is the recommendation for gay and lesbian individuals, specifically gay christians? Celibacy which is Robbing them of the chance to have a loving relationship with a life long partner? Or maybe have them live a life married to a straight person? It's not healthy or fair to ask two people to live a lie and it can be very damaging. And what if the person doesn't fit into either category of biological male or female? Is a intersex person who has BOTH male and female characteristics allowed to marry? And which gender should they be allowed to marry? I'm honestly curious as to what most conservative Christians think is the solution. So if anybody wants to comment I am truly curious on your thoughts.

[@joer5627]

One of the foremost biblical scholars sounds off on a topic that individual United Methodist Bishops are taking actions of a complete opposite nature. Thank you Sir for your as usual thoughtful response to a question today’s culture has attempted to redefine.

[@Ady-gj4vh]

People can be anything they wanna be because the word Christian doesn't have it's origin in God. It was at antioch were people started calling followers of Jesus Christ Christians. Whatever people can name they can define and justify. Thank God for the word of God it doesn't change it calls sin abomination. As a young man I grew up being told God loves sinners but hate sin but everything changed the day I came across this verse Psalms 5:4-6 "For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You. 5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; YOU HATE ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY. 6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man". Romans 1:28 "And because they did not think it worthwhile to acknowledge God, God delivered them over to a worthless mind to do what is morally wrong"

[@arsenalarsenalCOYG]

This is absolute? WHAT?! What was NT Wright going to say about the famous Tony Blair speech?!

[@patri1689]

Well I will tell you what he getting at: just as the West went to war on false premise and there by destroy many lives not only others but also themselves so is with the new interpretation of marriage. The latter even if declared as acceptable in the eyes of the state, it can't be valid because it is not founded on reality. It is in fact based on false notion of what marriage is all about i.e. simply as a construction of state, simply to appease as in getting more votes. But society without a family, as a nuclear and nucleus, collapse into nothingness. And we know nothing begets nothing. In short, the West will decimate it self slowly---gay marrage, which is different from the natural marriage, is a man made bomb and, in due time, those who are not for life will die out or extinct. Many of us and our Children will suffer as a result of this imposed madness by the oligarchy ruling state and their puppet media and education system. We live by an agenda where not only error has right but also error is right. Yet for those who believe life giving personal God, "when sin abounds grace abounds all the more." Lesson is let not the state rule your life but trust with all your might Christ, the Son of God. Over all, I find his analysis and analogy quite revealing. I hope you see the connection.

[@maninthewilderness4]

For Wright's response to the invasion of Iraq, see www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/dec/30/iraq.religion

[@kennethfaught8754]

See the ending of this conversation on the video Facing the Canon with Tom Wright.

[@saxyricks4731]

This cuts off too soon. I want to hear what he had to say about Tony Blair.

[@Dustshoe]

I think he was using as an example the parliamentary debate on the eve of war to show how the sombreness and urgency of an occasion can be used to win people over to a (dubious) cause regardless of the actual detail or process presented.

[@matthewstokes1608]

@@Dustshoe ... Or more exactly the downright diabolical lies of a sinister, murderous maniac, in this instance.

[@djhalling]

The difference between the way the Nazis and Communists redefined words (in his examples, at least), and the redefinition of marriage, is that they did it to try to limit peoples' rights, reducing equality. The redefinition of marriage to include gay people is to increase the rights of people who have been supressed for centuries. Essentially his argument is: "But we have always been prejudiced against gay people".

[@djhalling]

@Zsolt Pétery-Schmidt How would the Communists calling certain groups 'former persons' give rights to any group?

[@Sandy-jc3vv]

My heart weeps for our country and future generations.😢😢😢

[@djhalling]

You mean because gay people can get married now? With all the other things you might consider wrong with this country, many demonstrably harmful, I would have thought that would be insignificant.

[@TheMICMusicInspirationChannel]

"Like the government voting that black should be white." Exactly! Or that one plus one can be three sometimes... or that car batteries can come with two positive (or negative) terminals. It's absurd at a dystopian level, and the dystopia is nearly worldwide. That is, as he said, "chilling."

[@Mexighetti]

so much red herring bait. Any bites?

[@darkknightsds]

Marriage is not a natural law.

[@TheMICMusicInspirationChannel]

@@darkknightsds Of course it is, and those of us who are attentive are witnessing the consequences of violating it.

[@billyshib]

Allowing same sex marriage doesn't damage marriage between men and women, neither does it damage the symbology described. Your interpretation of the institution is not harmed by others taking a slightly different one. No one is being taken away in the middle of the night

[@truethinker221]

It would be hard to marry two pieces of wood together if one was not male and the other not female they would not hold together very good. But with modern glue it could still work for a while. Like sexes could not be married in the biblical sense because there is no way to consummate it. But they should be allowed to be legally married in the secular since. Why would they want to be considered married in the Christian since when they have been condemned by the christian teachings and the God they serve. If you claim you are under Grace them you would be admitting Homosexual marriage is forbidden. I would just stick with "why has God made me thus". Live in Peace.

[@roughdraught153]

no one except objective truth.

[@notofworld2513]

I’m lesbian and I don’t know why I was even born then? So if god formed me in the womb and formed my brain then I don’t get why and how I will be condemned. It takes a choice to sin but being gay is not something ya choose. No straight person will understand that.

[@Mayafav1212]

A few things to consider: 1. just because you experience a desire, even intensely, doesn't mean that that desire is who you are. We are taught that whatever we find when we look inside is who we really are. But why do we have to be slaves to those things? Are desires inherently justified simply because they exist? 2. God didn't create you that way just like he didn't create me to do things that I want to do but which are against His will. Sin has poisoned the world. So, my desires, which are broken versions of good desires, are a reflection of that world. It is because creation is messed up that God has set out to establish "New Creation" by His Son. We begin to live in that New Creation before it has fully arrived by surrendering to His Son Christ and putting our trust in Him. 3. God has the power to change us. This doesn't always mean that every toxic desire goes away when we come to Him (though He can do that); it means that we surrender ourselves, declare ourselves His, and allow Him to love us. His love, the same love that drove Him to the cross, the same love that pursues us, is the key to existence. You are created to know Him and know His love. Everything else pales in comparison. As Bob Dylan said, 'you gotta serve somebody.' It may be the enemy of your soul who will enslave you through desire, despair, and lies. Or it could be your Maker who has been murdered for you, whose love you were born to know.

[@thatbitch3254]

@@Mayafav1212 lmfao... Bunch of bs. Homosexuality is proven to be natural sexual variation, god is not proven to exist, so you using that as an argument it's what's irrational.

[@fatbastard7896]

@@thatbitch3254 Lmao you're missing the point: @mayara favarao is just responding to @Karen's argument, and both arguments are operating under the assumption that God exists.

[@thatbitch3254]

@@fatbastard7896 and it's still wrong, because if god exists and he made us, ans if he is omniscient and all powerful, then created us to do something/be something he wants, free will is simply nonexistent if god exists. It's simple reasoning. And not to mention that mayara favarao wants from people to believe in something that nobody has evidence of, which is crazy... I can't convince myself that god exists, just like I can't convince myself that magical fairies and unicorns exist, therefore if I can't convince myself of that then it is immpossible for me to 'come to god'

[@thatbitch3254]

@@fatbastard7896 and that's why it is simply irrational to argue from such a standpoint.. It's pointless.

[@noweternity3101]

Well done - God bless you !!!

[@gebswife]

What a majestic and beautiful explanation for marriage between man and woman.

[@feat.cicero4638]

Because NS and Stalin ... yeah beautiful.

[@DaveBalog99]

Casuistry.

[@nuggetoftruth-ericking7489]

Context controls the meaning of any text. I urge Christians to study with the Ancient Antiochene Church of God ~ TSW. Get the facts.

[@nathanksimpson]

Changing the meaning of language is based on arguments against an unfair hegemony that controls discourse, however it also leads to a lack of consensus on meaning if language doesn't necessarily refer to anything.

[@robin-hr9up]

The problem is that as God gives instructions, people resent it, not realising God's commandments are for our benefit. One of the most ironic labels given to homosexuals is gay, for that lifestyle is built solely upon rebellion.

[@joemccoy2287]

Ah heck, it cut off on the Iraq war, right before the big reveal!

[@Michael-ns1ey]

'Semantic deception - redefining terms to get agreement without understanding'. ~ Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt (from her book The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America).

[@ernestyates8828]

N. T. Wright is a brilliant man.

[@Martial-Mat]

Opinions vary. Greatly. Given that he isn't even aware that marriage has historically, frequently been about more than one man and one woman.

[@Mojoman1]

Ugo Cei since when was this about winning or losing? The deep end of all of this goes down to whether the Christian world view is a credible one to hold, hence why we have particularly different views on certain issues. In the end it is about bringing the world back to rights, and many of us struggle to do so. You have your ideas on how the world works and probably have ideas as well. This is about understanding and coming together in reasoning (yes there are ppl on both sides who have failed to show understanding and proper dialogue). At the end of the day there are differences, so yes we may pretty much subtly saying that we think the other is wrong. Okay, but in the end, if this is about who was right then that will be determined after death.

[@Paolo8772]

How can anything be determined for anyone if they're dead? By then it's too late because THEY'RE DEAD! and as I'm sure you like most thinking people in this wold know, dead people cannot think and therefore nothing can be determined for them, other than the way their body gets disposed of. But whatever becomes determined after that time is irrelevant to them because (as I already said): THEY'RE ALREADY DEAD.

[@georgenorris2657]

Starting this by making comparisons between the broadening of the word marriage to Nazi and Communist Newspeak is extremely manipulative. This man is even more reactionary that I had realised.

[@walternate2914]

For the first minute or two, he's describing Newspeak

[@crishealingvtuber8626]

Do note that Orwell was very much a leftist. He even visited Catalonia (in that moment occupied by communist rebels) in the Spanish Civil War

[@crishealingvtuber8626]

@@somercet1 what I mean is, many right-wingers and alike think that Orwell was right-leaning because of his critique of Stalinism, but he wasn't. I'm pointing that out just in case.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@crishealingvtuber8626 all you need to know is the scanda countries that are secular and socialist leaning are way happier and less criminalised, better healthcare and social services, the more religious countries become, the bigger the prison populations.

[@crishealingvtuber8626]

@@HarryNicNicholas I'm a leftist. I'd argue the problem is organized religion, not religion itself. Marx mentioned how the Apostles held things in common, and it is known that the Romans killed Jesus because they saw him as a radical and a political threat, not just because of religion. And you probably know that the Bible has plenty of broadly pro-immigration and pro-poor mandates.

[@dustinholaday4956]

The divorce rate in the church is the same or higher than outside of the church. Why is it so easy to gloss over the fact that marriage has also been defined as one man, and many wives? It is blatantly inconsistent and dishonest to address the issue of gay marriage as being a departure of the "traditional" definition of marriage while not addressing the same departure from said definition with the rampant polygamy and sexual indiscretion of countless "men of faith" and more importantly, key biblical characters. Don't use the generic arguments to hold up your disgust for people that you do not even care to get to know, or will not allow in your world(s). Jesus came to seek and save the lost, and it seems to me this is why he never spent time in the temple except to reason. He was with the people you all feel are too sinful to even get to know. It isn't about protecting marriage. Look deeper. There are individuals underneath and behind the ideas, the thing Christ cares about most. He didnt come to make bad people good. He came to make dead people live.

[@TesterBoy]

Thank you for defining your evil.

[@otherworld11]

balderdash

[@robjackson4050]

@@TesterBoy god is the evil one not the defenders of gay marriage people are just too brainwashed to accept the truth that he is hate not love if i'd compare him to anything it'd be the abusive spouse the person keeps coming back too and eventually they are killed by their spouse's hands

[@rodmitchell8576]

Did you even listen to what Wright said?

[@wynettegreer3812]

The state is out of marriage , but God is not !

[@bonsaitomato8290]

Ok we’ve only gone 2 minutes in and already this guy is either ignorant of the vast history of same sex marriages in Asia and Egypt dating back to the dawn of history or he is deliberately lying. Either way he is not someone to be taken seriously .

[@Matiyahu]

....Could you please cite specific instances in antiquity? Moreover, although same-sex intercourse has existed for some time, marriage has mostly been a complementary institution across time and culture. The reason, of course, is that procreation is the underlying logic of family. Marriage for "love" or companionship has almost always been secondary (if extant at all) in human history. The luxury of economically free marriage--experienced by modern, mostly Western white cultures--gives rise to a gross anachronism (like the one expressed in your comment).

[@bonsaitomato8290]

@@Matiyahu come on, you can not have studied Roman history and not know that at least 13 Roman emperors were at one time or another officially married to other men. Nero famously married two men on separate occasions in officially sanctioned ceremonies. This was not seen as anything other that natural. Get over yourself with this idea that marriage in ancient times was “only for procreation “ because it was more than that. Marriage was a political bond at times, at others it could have been for the combination of wealth and yes sometimes it was for mutual affection , but the point is none of those reasons demanded that one of the partners have a uterus. You can not be a serious student of history and not have known of these same sex arrangements.

[@KalibreSteelblast]

​@@Matiyahu *"Could you please cite specific instances in antiquity?"* A number of Native American tribes (including the Cherokee) recognized the union of homosexual relationships- bigoted white observers in the past described a Crow tribe with a female chief who had four wives. Some tribes were even progressive enough to accept third-gender/gender-variant people. And all of this is besides the point, because marriage has never been monopolized by Abrahamic religions; nor was it ever an invention of them. *"The reason, of course, is that procreation is the underlying logic of family."* Really. By that standard you should be _restricting_ marriage between two people who are incapable of having children, like those who are infertile or sterile. I hear counter-arguments to this, namely "but by the grace of god and miracles, that infertile couple could still have a child." To which one could point out that, if it were that god's will, they _could_ make a gay male couple pregnant (the nature of miracles being that they defy natural laws). I don't even mean this as a joke. In any case- why would same-sex marriage preclude procreation or family? Same-sex spouses can still have children through alternative (and natural) means, or adopt; the latter of which you'd _think_ more religions would get behind. *"Marriage for "love" or companionship has almost always been secondary (if extant at all) in human history."* Well, that's depressing, isn't it. No wonder your concept of marriage is an abject, divorce-riddled failure.

[@jamesfitzgerald1684]

@@bonsaitomato8290 And the homosexuality of the gentiles in condemned in the new testament. People did it in the past so that means it must be good?

[@bonsaitomato8290]

@@jamesfitzgerald1684 cultures throughout the world accepted same sex relationships in the past which means it exists and is not seen as a negative by everyone. What’s wrong with same sex relationships? Come on, amuse us with some ridiculous answers. 😂

[@strattgatt5303]

It's crazy that people will say Christ marries the chruch in the future. Are you not Christ's body right now? Has Christ joined himself to the church before marriage? Or are you not joined to Christ? The answer to all those questions is no. The new Jerusalem is simply not the church. The church is the Body not the Bride.

[@Matiyahu]

Wright rightly locates marriage within the narrative arc of creation. From the complementary culmination of creation in Adam and Eve, to the joining of Christ with His Church, marriage both reflects and is defined by a deep-seated principle within God's creational intentions for the world. The aforementioned marriage narrative in scripture, combined with single proof texts (like 1Cor 6:9 and Rom. 1), along with historical Jewish ethos and the writings of the Church Fathers make it impossible for anyone who takes scripture and Christian theology seriously to uphold "gay marriage." (You can find the full interview at kzbin.info/www/bejne/bqSmoHlqqrN_jbM.)

[@freddyscissorhands2485]

That's complete crap! Marriage has been a social institution all over the world, in different forms, usually for more political reasons, and by far not always between one man and one woman! Not even in the biblical context (AS IF this should carry ANY weight!) Marriage today is a social contract between two people, that has NOTHING to do with anything christianity-related! This fear of taking away what marriage means for christianity or christians, or their "relationship with god" is completly irrelevant! ALREADY! The redefining of the word won't in any way be anything new, because marriage has lost the place you and Wright want it to have a long, long time ago! That's why marriage cannot be restricted to heterosexual people, because the state has no right to discriminate based on sexual preferences! And the christians don't like that, because they still like to pretend that marriage is somehow something that is related to the church and their religion... which is simply not true.

[@freddyscissorhands2485]

***** I don't particularly care how you "see" things in this regard. If you think that marriage is something "god" ordains, then the legal concept of "marriage" should in no way be of issue to ANY religious person. Because then we are talking about two different concepts. Take these two definitions: 1. The divenly sanctioned bond between a man and a woman 2. The social contract between two people who have decided to spend the rest of their life together. These are two different concepts. There might be instances, where they could overlap (like e.g. if one of these social contracts was actually considered sanctioned by a god), but the concepts, nevertheles, remain seperate. If you take these two concepts, then religous people (who usually claim that marriage means the first things) should in no way object to gay marriage (under the second definition) being legal, because it has no effect on THEIR concept of marriage. And yet, they DO object. Meaning, that they DO acknowledge the LEGAL concept of marriage and consider it important.

[@zacharymittman5317]

Matt Robinson Then why does god create people born with a homosexual orientation? Nobody chooses to be gay

[@Matiyahu]

Zachary Mittman Hey Zach. First, you're begging the question. Who says that God creates people born with homosexual orientation? Does God create people with strong tendencies toward alcoholism? Much of Christian theology would say that homosexual proclivities are the result of sin's effect upon humanity. That is, sin has marred human nature and wounded God's creation so that things like perversion, addiction, hatred, etc. exists though it is not God's intention for them to exist. So, rather than affirming homosexuality simply because it exists, we point to Christ as the healer of the effects of sin. Besides this, the epicenter of Christianity is Jesus' call to self-denial and cross bearing (Luke 9:23). This is counter to the often held Rousseauian notion that we should embrace every desire we discover within ourselves. To follow Christ, one must deny him/herself.

[@switzerlandful]

Zachary Mittman I've noticed so many of the younger generation are turning out androgynous in this day. Males are growing up with diminished masculinity... they often choose to adobt gender switch appearance by dressing up, hormones or surgery. I could be wrong but I think many substances in our processed foods are diminishing male testosterone levels. Certain materials too get misinterpreted as estrogenic. And even with the opposite gender, hormones may be getting tossed out of balance by all kinds of new things. These factors cause kids to have vastly different hormonal balances than they would normally have. (and I'm not saying I hate gays but... Why aren't more people even concerned about this?) Healthy, balanced, normal levels of testosterone greatly increase a young boy's growing health. I just think people need to start being aware of this. These differences in hormonal levels also tend to make kids, in many cases, more likely to be attracted to same gender. Then the surrounding populace throws hate at them and then they go off thinking God created them this way. It just annoys me. I know several people that turned out to be attracted to the same sex. I'm not saying I support it or reject it... but these people were at a young age when they knew this or began to notice it and they also grew up in fairly sheltered or Christian homes. I don't necessarily think they actually chose it. Its not always like they suddenly think one day... "hey i'm just going to start going after men". I think it would be nice to let people like this know these factors and let them realize that they can choose to strengthen their original gender if they want instead of hating them when it may feel like they're body is telling them to want it. (I hope i'm not way off... correct me if i'm wrong)

[@chriswilcocks8485]

Words have always changed over time. Jesus says nothing about homosexuality. He says a lot about hypocrisy.

[@rohanabraham4903]

It is an interesting answer that doesn't take into context any of the historical redefinitions Christian leaders co-opted or purported. (Providence, the term is not entirely Christian). Jesus called God, Abba, isn't it? That's a redefinition of sorts especially if viewed from a Christian standpoint.

[@danb3657]

God / Elohim refers to a disembodied spirit. There are many gods, but only one Yahweh. Yahweh is the Father....Abba/Father.

[@blue3clic]

Can someone share the link to the full video pls?

[@Amherst1936]

The whole argument is flawed if it includes the marriage of Christ with the church. That is not male and female.

[@natashatomlinson4548]

Precisely . Great point .

[@richardchampion1034]

I expect the legislation for same-sex marriage and civil partnerships to be repealed by the end of 2021. All the ridiculous marriages so far and partnerships will then be annulled.

[@pureflix8086]

Ill subscribe to your channel, so that on December 31st of this year, i can tell you how ridiculous you sounded.

[@YingGuoRen]

How did that go? Fucking idiot.

[@TrakeM118]

Originally, marriage was an agreement between a man and another man over the other man's property, and by property I mean daughter. In the US, marriage was originally defined as the union of one man and one woman... of the same skin color. We have changed the definition of marriage many times. I'm sorry, comparing defining a person as no longer being human to saying that maybe gay people should have the right to marry too is ludicrous.

[@2274brian]

Very few states prohibited interracial marriage in the US. Of those that did even fewer made it absolute, in most white/Native American marriages were permitted.

[@alistairdarby]

I think part of the problem is the ability to divorce. It’s so easy now compared to in the past. I understand the need for divorce in some instances, but by making marriage “throwaway” as everything is in a materially driven society, you subdue its importance and value. As such, people don’t actually “think” about marriage as an important thing to do before God, but just as a celebration of two people being together and legalising them as a couple. Eventually allowing for anyone to marry anyone because it’s no more than a celebration. The same can be said for the value of sex. By taking away its importance and role in marriages, by turning it into no more than a human instinct, and similarly, by allowing for contraception (which I think is a necessity in today’s society), and birth control pills/abortion, again it makes it throwaway and so it becomes less important and ultimately available to anyone in any kind of couple. It’s about removing responsibility and accountability from marriage and sex, and making it wholly about individual pleasures.

[@AntwanRSmith]

A very well thought out answer given, classic NT at his best.

[@James-re6co]

Get rid of the tax benefits and spousal privileges and the same-sex marriage issue goes away. Government should have absolutely nothing to do with marriage anyway.

[@trackmusic252]

Why is videos like this so low but the nonsense loud.

[@JohnWadeLongJr]

Are. Are. Why ARE... ? VideoS is plural.

[@trackmusic252]

@@JohnWadeLongJr just your question is the answer. Read what I typed.

[@JohnWadeLongJr]

Correct English (Sorry, I'm a writer, and a Professor, so very priggish. I like to help people with their writing! And, you, Darryl, will help yourself by using proper English, but hurt yourself and your moral, political or theological position when you use improper grammar.) So, what would have been proper? This: "Why are videos like this so low but the nonsense loud?" is proper. Videos is plural, so takes "is" not are, and, it is a question, so requires a question mark at the end of the sentence. And, it would be good to clarify what you meant by "low." Low in volume? Low in content (confusing, wrong?) What did you mean? Now, you're all set! No, no, don't bother to thank me! : ) - Dr. Long

[@trackmusic252]

@@JohnWadeLongJr And your point is. It's people like you that open their so educated mouths but so dumb. I asked why was this video so low and others so high.

[@JohnWadeLongJr]

@@trackmusic252So educated is bad? Oooookay. So sorry I tried to help. I'm a teacher with many eager-to-learn students. Wish you were one of them. Blessings, Johnny

[@anger_resolution]

This conversation was cut short...I don't think his conclusion is what people think it is. Look at his other comments about homosexuality on KZbin.

[@Matiyahu]

No sir. The remaining comments Wright gives only intensifies what you see here. It was cut short by an editing mistake. You can watch the whole thing at Facing the Canon with Tom Wright and see for yourself.

[@Rayblondie]

Says a lot about our government doesn't it?

[@DannyLoyd]

Those like GES, who believe in OSAS, it doesn't matter if you have a same sex marriage as long as you have believed, heaven will still be your home.

[@joeybwalsh]

We should get the State out of Marriage entirely.

[@truthseeker332]

Joey Walsh We should get Marriage out of the State entirely.

[@Inquiry20]

but then they couldn't get tax breaks and women couldn't take up to 3/4 th's of a man's money when they split up according to the courts. ;) I'm kinda with the idea of that but I don't know if it would work or not. For me I didn't marry for religious reasons but I suppose culture and to show the world and her my commitment to her. I don't know that needs to be legal either.... As far as LGBT community I'm for them to be as miserable as the rest of us in the institution of marriage. :D

[@interpretingscripture8068]

Wes Sturdevant they are free to havr whatever assiciations they want. however they are trying to beat everyone into submission to accetp same sex marriage and punish and persecute those that disagred. Also where does it stop? Now we have people pushing for incest and other relationships to be sanctioned by Government as "marriage"

[@c39v26]

Because of child support and issues with the children it may be impossible. Though the exes are wives of the state? What a quandary!

[@skwills1629]

We shouldinstead subirdinate the State to Rational Christian Principles. Rebelion is the problem in todays World.

[@geofromnj7377]

If marriage is exclusively between a man and a woman, why does NT say that marriage is also Christ and his church? How is that combination a marriage?

[@randomuser6306]

It's a symbol of the covenant between them.... Try thinking?

[@keithwilson6060]

Expanding the definition of marriage is no different than expanding the supply of money by deeming oak leaves to be currency. It cheapens the whole money supply. It cheapens real money. Likewise, expanding the definition of marriage to include before unheard of combinations cheapens the real thing. Now we see a record low number of people being married because there’s nothing distinctive about it anymore.

[@castoramanwab2723]

You do realise that a few decades ago, your point would have been (and probably was) used to argue against interracial marriages?

[@keithwilson6060]

@@castoramanwab2723 Don’t insult both me and you with your logical non sequitur. Marriage has always be a binary institution between the two sexes, including interracial marriage in antiquity.

[@castoramanwab2723]

@@keithwilson6060 Oh in many areas, marriages were refused on the basis of race. "Marriage has always been a binary institution between the two sexes" Are you joking? For one, it was often not binary but trinary or more, due to the numerous polygamist cultures and couple polyandrist ones. And for two, same sex marriage was already a thing in antiquity in some areas, even a famous Roman emperor had a same sex marriage.

[@castoramanwab2723]

@@keithwilson6060 And you seem to miss the fact that whatever marriage was in antiquity, my point remain totally valid, since the antiquity is not the period that happened a few decades ago?

[@djhalling]

It is very different. If you redefine leaves to be currency it has a material effect on what you can buy with the currency you had. In what way does two men or two women being married effect your marriage?

[@robertsloan801]

Wisdom on display.

[@StudentDad-mc3pu]

Nope, bigotry and extreme dishonesty.

[@zumbi2000]

Is the full conversation available I’m intrigued

[@Matiyahu]

Absolutely: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bqSmoHlqqrN_jbM

[@jordanfisherco]

Can a "pastor" be female? Is that "changing the meaning of a key word"? Can "loving your neighbour" mean "transporting them in a metal pollution box to their desired destination"? "For the letter kills, but the spirit gives life"

[@truethinker221]

What we think of gay marriage ? Everyone should be happily married.

[@wishusknight3009]

@KY Chan You mean you are bi-sexual... And what is wrong with two consenting adults having sex (so long as precautions and protections are used)?

[@brandonbennett2776]

@@wishusknight3009 There's a question inherent in your question...who decides what is wrong? Now, if there is an absolute morality it must come from something, be grounded in something more than mere speculation. We cannot draw morality out of observation of what exists, because simply being is not a demonstration of rightness.(the is-ought problem) For me, the question is a Biblical one because the Bible reveals the absolute morality from the sovereign of the universe. Whether I understand the reasoning or not, if that sovereign who knows more intricately the details of my creation says that something is wrong, as he says sex outside of marriage is, then it follows that it is wrong. Can you tell me where your standard that it is only wrong if people aren't "consenting adults" comes from?

[@wishusknight3009]

@@brandonbennett2776 The bible's morality was a concept of sheep herders 2000+ years ago and is not an absolute authority. AT ALL. It belongs no where in modern society, and what is beneficial is rather obvious. When you are interacting with people in the general public, and have a keen sense of how your actions affect others, and you want to minimize negative effects on yourself and others, then what is good or not becomes pretty apparent really fast. You don't need ancient sheep herders to tell you that. No god needed. Whatever god it happens to be among the thousands of gods around, let alone an individual's interpretation of what that god should be. This doesn't answer what is inherently wrong with two consenting males who love each other. Try again.

[@wishusknight3009]

@St Benaiah You meant to say that certain interpretations of the bible don't agree with it. And that does not answer my question. What is wrong about it? The bible does not have that answer other than "My interpretation of a god in a book doesn't like it".

[@wishusknight3009]

@Stuart K So you have anal sex on the brain? Who the fuck are you to determine what is "natural" or not. Your supposed "god" is unnatural. And what is unique about gay sex? hetero couples have STD's at similar rates, Hetero couples have anal sex. Have you even thought about this more than the disgusting and bigoted talking points you are parroting from some pastor? You seem to think about gay sex more than actual gay people do. Maybe that is telling you something. You realize about 80% of gay male couples don't even have anal sex. So answer my question? What is wrong with two consenting males having sex when proper precautions are taken? YOu may wish to do a bit of research before giving me an ignorant answer again.

[@sophiaad7486]

We may learn that sometimes men spoke in the name of God things that God himself did not speak. Moses wrote it like the allowance came from God Himself. Moses spoke as God's human mouthpiece, yet in the beginning, it was not so and God was not the author of that allowance. The same with Ephesians 5:22-33. Where in the Hebrew Genesis creation narrative did God ever compare the husband to Christ and give him Godlike status and authority over his wife? The Romans made the Christian marriage one of perpetual servitude for the wife and nothing but benefits for the husband and they accomplished this by using spiritual language to trap the wife into perpetual servitude. It is quite brilliant if you ask me because the husband is required to do nothing other then what all Roman men were already doing, namely providing bodily care for their wives in return for her obedience and servitude. It gets even better when we factor in the reality that wives were making their husband's clothing and preparing his food. So in essence, the husband does nothing but the wife does everything, yet she is in perpetual debt to him on account of his "provision." The same with requiring a sacrifice of husbands, Roman men were already soldiers and dying in wars to defend their homeland. Nothing new here and nothing Christian about it. Read Ephesians 5:28-33 carefully and you will see that the husband is not being asked to do anything other than express "love" by caring for his wife like his own body via nourishing and cherishing. To nourish is to feed for growth and to cherish is to warm and make comfortable, this all lies within the material sphere and is in reference to giving her the same body care he gives himself because that is what Christ does for His body. For this, the husband is considered as giving a sacrifice, which is in itself a joke that every time the husband pulls his weight in the marriage and does something for his wife, he is labeled as a sacrificial hero. And what of all the wife's sacrifices and efforts? Well, those are taken for granted because he husband is like Christ and is worthy of all that service, however, she is not worthy of anything and everything the husband does for her falls within the sphere of charity and pity. Typical Greco-Roman thinking right there. There is nothing in the Ephesian marriage passage about shared honor and status in the marriage, the man looks down with pity and charity upon the woman, and the woman looks up with fear/awe and indebted servitude upon the man. I can't imagine caring the same burdens, making the same sacrifices for the family, taking on the same risks in the event he gets injured or sick and doing the same workload as my husband, only to have to look up to him with awe and wonder and respond to this by obeying his every whim and desire for the rest of my life.

[@DavidKnowles]

@Sophia AD I can read that you put a lot of time, effort into writing your passionate response. This subject clearly means a lot to you. I respect that and take seriously what you have written. But I am unable to agree with your interpretation of the texts you reference. My objection in a nutshell is that your appraisal of the texts inaccurate and unbalanced resulting in a distortion of their message. Whether one agrees with the content of the texts is another matter entirely, but it is not helpful to misrepresent them. Your interpretation is rather cynical and as a result belittles the command given to the husband too ‘love your wife’ and 'lay down your life for her’. This is the ultimate sacrifice. At the same time you focus wholly on injustices and abuses of authority - something the texts before and after totally condemn. This texts commands husbands to follow Christ’s example. Christ was a servant leader. He gave up everything for His bride - those that believe. A servant leader sacrificially seeks the highest joy of those he serves. A servant leader will forgo his own comforts or rights to help support and protect those he is responsible for. Not out of pity or pride, but because he cares. A very simple example is where Jesus washed the feet of His disciple. He told them 'Do you understand what I have done for you? You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’and rightly so, for that is what I am. Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet.' He epitomised true love, which is so much more than a cuddle every now and then. The love the text refers to is explained in 1 corinthians 13:4-8: 'Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonour others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.” A real man & a loving husband strives with all his might live like this. That is my goal. I often miss the mark, but that is where I am heading. I wish you well.

[@1693108]

Now, here is what the law says about homosexual people, including pastors that call themselves Christians! 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV) “I wrote to you in my letter that you should not associate with people who sin sexually. But I did not mean the people of this world. You would have to leave the world to get away from all the people who sin sexually, or who are greedy and cheat each other, or who worship idols. I meant you must not associate with people who claim to be believers but continue to live in sin. Don’t even eat with a brother or sister who sins sexually, is greedy, worships idols, abuses others with insults, gets drunk, or cheats people. It is not my business to judge those who are not part of the group of believers. God will judge them, but you must judge those who are part of your group. The Scriptures say, “Make the evil person leave your group.” Below in 1 Corinthians chapter 6 verse’s9 &10(ERV) it says: “Surely you know that people who do wrong will not get to enjoy God’s kingdom. Don’t be fooled. These are the people who will not get to enjoy his kingdom: those who sin sexually, those who worship idols, those who commit adultery, men who let other men use them for sex or who have sex with other men, those who steal, those who are greedy, those who drink too much, those who abuse others with insults, and those who cheat.” It should be obvious to anyone reading this message that homosexual pastors, priests, or any minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ should never be in a Pulpit!

[@truethinker221]

You might want to use a bible.

[@kymvanderkaag1474]

Blood Moon Well put; well said!

[@BigVK19]

As an Atheist, and a former Christian, I think NT Wright is right about words. When applied to the Bible, words don't really mean what they say. For example, God is LOVE. Normal people interpret Love as something positive. If you offend a loving person, normally you should not expect that offended loving person to massacre your entire family because you've cursed at them. With God, however, all things are possible! God is the most loving being in the Universe, but God will have no qualms with torturing you in hell forever and ever and ever! While still being Loving! Another quick example deals with money. In Luke 14:33, Jesus plainly says that you cannot be his disciple (or his follower), unless you give up all your possessions. But, again, those are just words. What they actually mean is that you can be a very good follower of Jesus while giving up none of your possessions.

[@AASS-fj2yv]

God is Love , also God is just and Merciful and caring and kind etc… He offers us a loving relationship as his children. If we refuse Him continually out of His love He will not force you to live with him eternally. Hell was not created for humans but for Satan( Matthew 25) if we leave God and follow Satan we end up in eternity with Satan. This is a consequence of our decision. Yes He loves you and keep on loving you but you have the free will to decide. I noted your personal decision , this is your choice and you are aware of its consequences. While alive, you can still come back to your Heavenly Father, He waits for you, He really loves you that He came in the flesh to save you and is coming again very very soon to take His children 🙏❤️🙏🙏

[@Pooua]

Ugo Cei misses the point, a point that has been made several times over the years about other topics that have nothing to do with marriage. That point is, when administrations redefine fundamental words to mean new things, very bad things often follow. This is exactly the way that Socialist governments of all types work.

[@TheIndependentVoter]

No, Richard, don't be silly. We can casually redefine the basic foundational relationship underlying all modern societies, and there will absolutely, positively, without a doubt, NOT be any negative results. I mean, the idea itself is preposterous! Only hate-filled bigots who want to stand with their boots on the necks of homosexuals could even possibly imagine any negative results, let alone honestly think that such results are probable let alone possible.

[@Pooua]

Joshua Bozeman You are silly. The use of metaphor as psychological buffer against the evil one does is so common that it forms the basis of many works of drama. Its use is famous in Orwell's "1984," which in turn got it from the actual methods of the Soviets. Watch the opening of "Blade Runner," in which running text states, "This was not called execution. It was called retirement." The reason those words have impact is because it is common knowledge that redefining words is a common tactic of oppressive regimes. That's because people who do this are lying to us, and a government that lies to us is up to no good. Calling a homosexual relationship a marriage is a lie!

[@choke3253]

Like male and female. Shits getting crazy.

[@Paolo8772]

Marriage is NOT a fundamental word. Life, Air, Water, Food, Shelter, Toilet, Sex, Death. Those are fundamental words. Give your head a shake.

[@Pooua]

@@Paolo8772 Humans have been engaging in marriages for tens of thousands of years. Marriage is older than civilization. It is an inherent and instinctual part of being human, a part of human nature, no less so than the desire to have children. That's why the homosexuals are trying to copy it for themselves; on their terms, of course.

[@djalice]

So Marriage has always meant the union between a man and a women? Then you say Jesus was Married to the Church? That seems to contradict the previous statement. Marriage existed before Christianity and its meaning changes with time as it is a man made artificial construct which changes as society's ideas change. I would expect most modern Christians are against slavery even though they used to accept it as the God of the Bible gave lengthy accounts of how he was in favour of it. Similar Biblical arguments in favour of Slavery were used to counter Lincoln and those fighting to abolish slavery. Thank goodness reason won the day rather than those citing the Bible's immoral teachings. In a few generations same-sex marriage will be as much of a non-issue as Slavery is today. Although Slavery is still a huge problem so there will always be those holding us all back.

[@Eleazar1A2]

We should not tip toe around this matter. Marriage only applies to man and woman.

[@robertjsmith]

i agree why shouldn't everyone be miserable

[@Demiligne]

*+ Elezar* You don't get to define what marriage means to the world at large. Legally (in most of the west) and overarchingly, marriage applies to everyone.

[@markwilliams3994]

I actually wanted to hear the rest of that.

[@Steelflex33]

Marriage has never been what this man imagines. Marriage has for more than 1000 years had nothing to do with love, and more recently has a complicated relationship to that at best. With society's attitudes towards women, particularly in the 60s and 70s, and divorce and marriage in general, many people were stuck in genuinely awful marriages. If the church was meant to teach that marriage was about love and respect for one's partner (ofc straight partner) then it has actually never succeeded, or come close. For nearly 1000 years before the present, the church married people who were in arranged marriages, and serfs on the recommendation of their Lords. So yeah, I think taking marriage out of the hands of an institution that has systematically failed to uphold moral standards throughout almost its entire history may be a radical change, but it is more than deserved

[@shawnbenson7696]

I think you have an imaginery history, real people in history did generally marry for a covenantal relationship.

[@rev.stephena.cakouros948]

As I see it. Scripture teaches that whatever is not given to God will at some point be forfeited. That includes reason. Enlightenment thinkers would not surrender reason to God with the result that it, reason, has been forfeited. This has led to society allowing or even condoning what at one time would have been thought of as irrational. Case in point same sex “marriage” which is anatomically impossible, a kind of social madness. The Psalmist says he is a “stranger in the earth.” [Psalm 119:19] What does he mean? He means that society can go mad; and that he has not followed it into madness because he placed reason on the altar. Therefore he is sober while society is drunk. And because society will go mad when it does not bring reason in particular before the God of the Bible and place it on the altar, he will feel like a stranger in the earth. This is the plight of the Christian. And this what Paul is talking about when he says that God has given the true believer a “sound mind” [2 Timothy 1:7]. What was kept back from God, reason, has now been forfeited by Enlightenment society. We must not follow society into madness. We must lead.

[@Lowraith]

This guy's just grumpy "marriage" isn't defined as "a man and his multiple slave-wives" anymore, like in the Old Testament...

[@TerryN-ps3eh]

Does he say that from a Biblical standpoint, Gay marriage is wrong? He so eloquently says that some things don't naturally fit, but no direct quotes, other than the Genesis example, I see. Although I love every person, as does our Heavenly Father, some things are contrary to God's acceptance (Romans 1:24-27).

[@kenzeier2943]

When a word means anything it means nothing. We are in an age of irrationalism.

[@bobpike8050]

Yes, this is part of the war on reality.

[@laurenpage3548]

Thank allah for the Enlightenment there are a lot of good reasons why we don't reference the bible when making civil laws, and N T just gave a crash course in them

[@ArnoldArchives]

Well-said. One of my favorite quotes is this: "The battle for truth is always a battle over the definition of words." Another is this: "When words lose their meaning, people lose their lives." The Third Reich definitely proved that.

[@ismypartygirl7511]

@@ArnoldArchives That's probably item 100 on a list of things proved by the Third Reich. In any case, marriage was never codified as something between a man and a woman, it was just that way by custom. So there's no redefinition happening. In additional, vastly more common is the marriage of very young girls against their will to older men around the world. I don't see America's conservative Right all in a twist about that. Meanwhile the religious right in the US and its political representatives have always had a massive closeted gay male subset, which frequently gets found out because some tie-wearing Republican decides to try to pick up a guy in a gas station bathroom. The hypocrisy on the right on this issue is unfathomable.

[@Demiligne]

*+ Ken Zeier* You're right in the extreme, but this isn't a case of a word being redefined to mean anything. Marriage is adapted to mean the unity of any two adults in love, just like many words change over time. Is it irrational to stop excluding others?

[@magepunk2376]

If you can’t make your case without cheating (for example, arbitrarily changing definitions) you probably don’t have a very strong case.

[@WienArtist]

The common excusatory phrase is "committed relationship", which wrongly suggests the right to marry in a homosexual context. One often hears the excuse, "It cannot be wrong, since I love this person!" The problem with that reasoning is in using one definition of love to encompass all definitions. The word, "love", is a polysemous term. For example, to say that because I have brotherly love (philia), that I have the liberty or license to engage in sexual love (eros). I may love my dog or my cat, but that type of love does not suggest that I should pursue a marital relationship with it, and certainly not a bestial relationship either. The deepest issue is maintaining the original intention of God in the true definition of marriage. The creation account is replete with examples of God created most living organisms as male and female, which constitutes a definite distinction between two similar living things becoming one as a matter of purpose, as in procreation. Male/male or female/female marriages are an insult to God because it is an attempt to destroy His original intention, purpose and symbolism pertaining to spiritual matters. Besides, the male/female partnership is biologically complementary, especially regarding procreation. There is nothing biologically complementary with same sex marital relationships for the purpose of sexual gratification. It's like trying to put together a picture puzzle with a hammer because the pieces don't match. You might end up with a picture in the end, but it certainly does not look like it was intended. And some might add that the hammered out picture looks rather fetching as an abstract. And that is also what a male/male or female/female sexual relationship is - an aberration from the intention of true marriage and yes, totally abstract. Logically, one should realize that such partnerships do not serve the best development of the human race. Incidentally, attempting to change one's original sexual orientation (male to female or vice versa) does nothing to solve the problem of same sex marriages. One may have himself castrated, have breast implants, his Adam's apple removed, ribs removed, and pumped full of estrogen to become a transfigured disguise of a true woman, but that does not solve the deeper issue, which is purely a psychological one. And doing so also does nothing to improve the quality of married life as God intended, and certainly deleterious regarding creating a natural family since obviously a transwoman cannot bear children, since she is still a biological male in the truest sense of the word. The same goes for female to male transgender.

[@terryschofield1922]

A well presented load of bollox. If there was a god, take your pick, god wouldn't give a damn who marries whom. PS, there isn't.

[@WienArtist]

@@terryschofield1922 First you presume that there is no God. Then you attempt to know what he thinks. Your thinking is quite contradictory and self-defeating at best.

[@terryschofield1922]

@@WienArtist Dear Richard, I presume nothing. I study the evidence and find that there is insufficient evidence for any god. If you have some please supply it. The bible says or the koran says or whichever scripture you follow says is not evidence. I don't presume to know what god thinks because I don't believe in such bizarre nonsense. My point was if there was a god why would your god give a damn who anybody marries. Come on provide your evidence or shut up.

[@WienArtist]

@@terryschofield1922 Dear Terry, but of course you are making presuppositions/presumptions simply because you claim there is insufficient evidence for the existence of any God or gods. It is more evident to me that either you have a cognitive dissonance or an a priori rejection of any evidence, or that you choose to reject any evidence based upon personal reasons like your homosexuality for example. It cannot possibly be that there is no evidence because very educated persons (myself included) have examined a plethora of evidence, followed it where it has led, and came to the opposite conclusion as you. According to the Law of Non-contradiction, God can either exist or he cannot - both conclusions cannot be correct. However, those who are theists usually adhere to what is the more rational and reasonable conclusion that God does indeed exist. Again, you most certainly are presuming the thoughts of God when you think he cannot care to whom anyone marries. How could you know that he would not care, if you are not projecting your own biased thoughts on his? My rejection of your assertion would be this: God does indeed care whether a man and a woman marry or whether same sex marriages occur because same sex marriages violate his original purpose and intention of the creation of male and female not only between a human, but everywhere in nature. This is evident in the obvious distinctions in all of nature - you see male/female connections everywhere for the purpose of procreation, otherwise each biological species would eventually cease to exist because the mode of procreation/reproduction would be disconnected and discontinued, leading to the obvious extinction of that species. There are many creatures who choose a mate of the opposite sex for life. Why is it that they do not choose a mate of the same sex? I have already answered that question. Heterosexual marital connections are self-evident and an innate part of life, regardless of your rejection that it matters. Regarding your comment about Biblical or otherwise evidence from other holy books, I never made such a claim that all the evidence is found in a book. There is a mountain of evidence apart from any book, if one is open-minded to accept it. I know certain atheists who became Christians because they recognized the evidence of God in nature, not from reading the Bible or the Quran, etc.

[@terryschofield1922]

@@WienArtist Dear Richard, well I appreciate your response. I accept that, and I am guessing a bit, there are probably millions of people who are more intelligent than me who believe in a god. There is not one iota of evidence in you reply, you simply suggest that because many people have studied that it must be true. Bishop Barron, a catholic, defines faith as a response to the revealing god. What does that mean? William Lane Craig claims that there are 4 facts that prove the resurrection, not facts at all. There may be billions of christians, but there are at least 5 billion who don't agree with you. Perhaps you should all get together and figure out which is the real one. Muslims are just as convinced as you that there god is true. I suppose at least christians have a sense of humour. So should I believe in anecdotal evidence of let's say a virgin birth and a bloke coming back from the dead. Medical science has moved on Richard, we know those events don't happen. You have no evidence. Perhaps better to believe in a prophet who flew to heaven on a winged horse, was that before or after he split the moon in two. Again no evidence. Basically it's down to generations of indoctrination with a few exceptions of those who switch horses or come to faith later in life. But as I always say you believe whatever you like. I'll pass on the rant about peadophile priests, female genital mutilation, religious wars, discrimination against women & gays etc..but you get the point. There are people today who are on death row for blasphemy and other nonsense. Religion just seem to ignore the bad stuff, how can you support an organisation that routinely fucks kids. Anything bad is god working in mysterious ways. No Richard you are welcome to your hallucinations. I don't need a supernatural sky daddy to know how to behave. If it keeps you in check then good. By the way I am straight, but we are all equal. Stay safe Richard, maybe if you lot would pray a bit harder the virus would go away, as if.

[@carolLDickinson]

The Bible is by no means silent, on the subject of homosexuality. So let us look at the whole of God's Word… from the Old and New Testament on this issue. Rom 1:27... "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." 1 Cor 6:9... "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate (homosexual), nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Tim 1:10... "for fornicators, for sodomites (homosexuals), for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching" Rom 1:26... "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other." Lev 20:13... "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them." Of course people are not put to death in the US for the act of homosexuality… but the eternal end is the same if they do not repent. Under the New Testament we now have a redeemer who when we cry out to him for what ever sin we may have committed and ask for forgiveness and turn away from that sin whatever the sin… He will forgive us AND cleanse us from all unrighteousness. A beautiful promise from our Heavenly Father. 1 John 1:9… "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Beautiful, beautiful promise from our Heavenly Father. Jesus clearly speaks on the issue of homosexuality in Matthew 19:4-6… and also warns all people everywhere to repent from sin (no matter the sin… not just homosexuality)… "I tell you, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Luke 13:3 (KJV) He also said in... Matthew 19: 4-6... "And He (Jesus) answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife (the female): and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Love people enough to lovingly tell them the truth... to show them the whole of God's Holy Written Word and what it actually says. This is love. God does not call us to be happy. God calls us to be holy. Homosexuality (or any type of sin for that matter) is not holy as these scriptures prove. I say this to all those who may be a homosexual (or to those who just support their agenda)… and are reading these Bible Scriptures.... know that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. You see sin is sin no matter the type of sin committed. But God's Holy Word is clear that the sins we do with our own bodies, our own flesh... are even worse... whether it be adultery, fornication (which is sex outside of marriage), homosexuality, lesbianism, beastiality... if we do these things we are desecrating our own bodies which are made in the image of God and by God to be temples of the Holy Spirit. If a person does not have the Holy Spirit in them nor a relationship with God/Christ they are not saved... and desperately need to seek God with their whole heart. Without repenting of sin there is no eternal salvation. Nothing unholy can enter heaven. Revelation 21:27 says… "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoeverworketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." Grace does not cover unrepented continual proud sinners… who feel there is nothing wrong with their sin... when in fact there is... and it will lead them to hell. Oh Heavenly Father help the gay community to know Gods Truth from your Holy Scriptures... that they may repent and be saved. 2 Peter 3:9… "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Mark 1:15 Repent and believe the Gospel. In Christ's love and truth always, Carol

[@ericnorge7413]

NT Wright makes me proud of the Anglican expression. A leader AND a good man.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

not really. i'm so glad religion is on the decline, what a bunch of hypocrits you all are.

[@tonymercer7759]

It is better to be proud of the Biblical expression

[@lesliebowen6229]

And what has happened to music nowdays

[@Sinleqeunnini]

Wright is correct to point out how words can change their meaning in contemporary discourse, sometimes consciously by a certain group, sometimes unconsciously. But what he doesn't address is the more important consequence of this observation, that most of the basic assumptions in our way of life and outlook on the world have been achieved by those who forcefully push those shifts in language and its attendant thought patterns, independent of what impartial consideration might warrant. Paul, the Deuteronomist, the authors of the Gospels all promoted messages using the same strategies Wright seems to call unfair (e.g. the Newspeak argument). One can take the cynical view and say this means all the basic principles articulated the Bible were never divinely inspired, but the better thing to do is simply realize there is no broad fundament undergirding our morals. There might be a starting point, call it God, or Nature, or whatever, but time and again appeals to scripture without some cognitive backing end up being quite brittle. That is where the changes in knowledge about how the world works, understanding our mistakes and sins of the past become more relevant than what is literally said in some verse of the Bible. Regarding Wright's appeal to the 'natural order' spoken of in Genesis, this is basically a rehash of the argument over whether Paul hates homosexuals and whether that matters today. It doesn't matter whether you point to Romans written by Paul or the story of Adam and Eve written by some priest in the Exilic Period. Same set of assumptions about what sexuality is and about heteronormative culture. Same arguments about what is biologically natural versus what humans can adapt to culturally. In the end, the same conclusion is reached: are you basing your argument on the antiquity and suitability of a social institution (traditionally defined marriage) or upon God's principle of love, incorporating what we currently know about ourselves and the world, understanding that our position might change when we find out more, but continuing to believe that the principle itself is not a 'fact' but rather an enduring attitude that supersists on said currents of knowledge?

[@Platter_heads]

Paul did not use newspeak. He did combine words to create phrases or ideas in his mind to express a thought. That’s not newspeak. The biblical writers used Polemics and took concepts that were found in culture to describe in a certain mode of communication what the gospel was doing in our lives. It’s not like they were redefining what a man is or what society should think about grace. What they were saying is our God has grace and this is what this grace is like. Or our God not only gives agape but is agape. Jesus on things like the sabbath and messianic prophecies didn’t go with newspeak but rather Christ bringing those things to fulfillment

[@shtonker8]

So words are more important than the human experience and development. Can we be such slaves to WORDS? So, call gay "marriage" Supercallifragilistic Expialidocious! "Once a SLAVE always a SLAVE (to Words).", this Presenter. Nuff said. Oh, love the binary have you never heard of Top or Bottom??

[@righty-o3585]

Where does it say that a marriage must be between a man and a woman? The Bible does describe when a man and woman are married, but nowhere does it say that a man MUST marry a woman. And it sure as hell does not say ONE man and ONE woman, because it talks about any concubines a man might have while married, and completely condones such behavior.

[@Crimson-z1c]

There is so much more going on in this world that needs our attention than debating about gay marriage or couples. If people really want to know what God says about this matter they can read God's word for themselves.

[@wishusknight3009]

And the majority of christians are fine with gay marriage.

[@barryblackwood6050]

@@wishusknight3009 The majority are illiterate to God's instructions. The majority are luke-warm & leave that to the pastor or minister who teaches. The majority don't follow Jesus with much conviction. The majority don't love their neighbour enough to show what is Holiness to others and the redemption offered in Christ. Narrow is the Way and Few find it. The bible says people in the last days will be following a false Christ... the man of lawlessness who is against God's Laws of Holiness. The church is not always a good representation of God's will for mankind. You have seen that by saying christians are fine with gay marriage. Reading the Bible shows clearly that should not be the case for the sake of the person trapped in any sin. It does not mean hatred toward others. God is a God of division He divides constantly. To move those who come into relationship with Him from that which is dangerous to our spiritual health so we are transformed a bit at a time from thinking that is not as wise as we thought it was to thought and actions that are beautiful. Division is part of determining what is Holy and what is not. Any person can become Holy in Messiah... some choose not to & prefer to be slaves to other agendas they believe are more important. Many are deceived in their thinking. Bigotry excludes but the actual principle of God is to invite all back to His Ways so they choose to become Holy by God's Spirit. It takes repentance and believing God forgives and restores through Christ. Some things are anathema to Holiness. God decides. You may choose to say it is bigotry but Holiness is actually the design reality of the human body and psyche when it is not run by corruption and desires that are destructive. The shared life and love God is aiming for His Creation to experience, is eternal and the boundaries to receive that state again were made.... before our bodies were physically created. As spiritual beings, sexuality will be left behind when our bodies decay but the effects of sin that is not dealt with imprint our spirits and sin negates Holiness as the state God is trying to teach us whilst we our in physical bodies. If we choose unHoliness and desire to be unrenewable God will give each of us our desire and that person will be separated eternally from the goodness they did not want to know after they see God and realise they refused the offer of New Life.. Words may be changed by men, but the Creator's truth is immutable. I do hope you find the love of His Truth for it is most pleasing to the healed spirit of a person in relationship with His mercy. Be blessed. I hope the true Christ heals your heart. None of us survive or thrive on lies from any direction. FJ

[@wishusknight3009]

@@barryblackwood6050 And some have become so myopic on words that they have missed the greater over arcing narrative. Christ himself never said anything about homosexuality, and he would be ok with the loving monogamous marriage. Perhaps that is where you should start, that is the true feeling of freedom and release.

[@barryblackwood6050]

@@wishusknight3009 have some not read Jesus who only spoke the Father's Words. Matthew 5:17-22 is in Greek active voice the OT is true. Scripture in the time of Christ & now is the OT rightly divided. If you don't follow it you can than say it is OK now to have sex with an animal or your mother. Think about that my friend. Blessings for your eyes to be opened to the bigotry shown to the wisdom of God. FK

[@wishusknight3009]

@@barryblackwood6050 You don't seem to understand the concept of consent of sex. Or possible consequences of consent. Also in no scripture does Jesus ever mention homosexuality. Your scripture demonstrates he is being divisive and nonsensical, I get that part, but fail to see what that has to do with a loving monogamous relationship. As to your final sentence, If i do not get the choice in my sexual orientation, then you do not get the choice to harass me about it. That is the definition of bigotry.

[@thetruthchannel349]

Changing language always precipitates forced culture changes and the motives behind that have NEVER been good throughout history.

[@officialmoderator1]

Language changes naturally, it evolves just like everything else in nature. Otherwise you'd still be speaking Old English or some even more ancient tongue. Words and meanings change because our conception of reality is always changing. Reality is a process always in flux, it is not a static, concrete thing.

[@officialmoderator1]

Calling yourself "The Truth Channel" is as Orwellian as "The Ministry of Truth." The irony is over your head, of course.

[@thetruthchannel349]

*YOURE A FRAUD*

[@chrissonofpear1384]

I don't like forced cultural change, myself. Still, the Inquisition attempted it too, so...

[@officialmoderator1]

@@chrissonofpear1384 The Inquisition was created to STOP cultural change not to make it happen. It was the product of the same dogmatic mentality that promotes religious crusades today against LGBT people, science and legal abortion

[@sbwetherbe]

I doubt this will be well receive in this line of comments, but I read this differently. The joining of 'binaries' is about the inherent oneness of everything. What appears as two is actually different aspects of the same thing. Its the only way I can read this and have it makes sense for me.

[@barryblackwood6050]

Considering God made man in His image male and female in Genesis and then separated the female side out of Adam to make male and female in separate bodies you are correct. The Adam mark ii is male and Chava mother of all living known as Eve in English is the other side female. The sexual union is Holy as it is the image of God being recreated physically and that is the wonder of loving procreation! Pretty amazing our God. be blessed. FJ

[@jessewallace12able]

Marriage is man and woman. That's it folks!

[@stevepayne5965]

Jesse Nope!

[@kingbeast777]

Marriage is between 2 loving committed adults.

[@pastorbri]

not acording to the old testiment its not! Marriage is 1 man and many wives there.

[@suaptoest]

@@kingbeast777 Why not call it with something more illustrating expression? For example, "bullcoupling" a pair of bulls, expresses the nature of the union most accurately.

[@kingbeast777]

@@pastorbri yeah but marriage Is one man one women But now some men can't produce enough sperm and Some women can't have Babies. Most say Marriage is for family. But my post is When someone falls in love deeply with each other the union between them is Marriage, Marriage in definition IS COMBINE TO JOIN.

[@allanlorrainescarlet7627]

Heart weeps for many many nations including NZ

[@heartrocketblast]

Hey! Where's the rest of his answer to this...? :P

[@Matiyahu]

My apologies Justin, when I was synchronizing the audio and video I lost the last few moments. Basically, Write draws a parallel between the pro-war, mob mentality of England (surely the U S as well) and the mob mentality that would roll over those who do not support homosexual unions. Write is saying that the "You better get on board with us or you'll be on the wrong side of history" message of the pro-homosexual marriage side is dangerous. That about sums up what was lost. I'll try to post another video complete with the last few seconds of this point. Thanks.

[@heartrocketblast]

Thanks. I actually watched the full vid and got filled in. Appreciate it! :D

[@carolLDickinson]

Justin... where did you find it. The full video.

[@RonKelmell]

2000 years of scholarship? Suddenly Wright straightens us all out....what a joke this guy is. Bonhoeffer's "Cost of Discipleship" is genuine scholarship. Wright is educated beyond his intelligence and has too much time on his hands. If he worked for an honest living, his imagination would not run so wild.

[@frankteleng85]

GODS WORD ROM 1:27 his word stand for ever

[@marysbahr4386]

I've met him. He's not against explaining his ideas and I've taken him to task at one convention for something he said. I think he is excellent, but I think he misses the current reality of the specific question asked of him here. Any further discussion to be continued is cut off.

[@Matiyahu]

You can find the whole interview at kzbin.info/www/bejne/bqSmoHlqqrN_jbM. Also, when it comes to homosexuality in the church, Wright often refers folks to Richard Hays's "Moral Vision of the New Testament" which Wright regards as the best treatment of the subject" that he's found.

[@lesterchua2677]

Like changing the definition of Atonement and Propitiation. Won’t we agree?

[@kentmiller808]

It’s ok when they redefine things cuz that’s what god wanted duh

[@MrDragpics]

Words are to be understood in its Biblical usage.SIMPLES..

[@schoooter1]

Rwanda: 'cockroaches'. Very scary.

[@nickstorey9530]

His argument is that because Genesis 1 contains lots of pairs of complimentary things, like heaven and earth, and sea and dry land, and man and woman is one of these pairs, only men and women should be allowed to marry. It is a pompous expression of 'Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve'. Ridiculous

[@davidkinnon952]

Excellent analysis. Never actually took the "binary" point on board before. Thanks

[@elliotalderson8358]

Don't take the binary point. It's from an old story book. Not something that should be applied to humanity

[@robertberger3475]

This is a totally specious argument . To use the Bible, an ancient book of myths, legends and questionable stories , as an excuse to argue against same sex marriage is intellectually dishonest . You can use the Bible as an excuse to justify anything ,or to to demand it be illegal .

[@Matiyahu]

What is the locus of morality for you Robert? You condemn Wright's argument; I assume you have some ethical standard by which you do so. From what moral platform do you denounce the Biblical view?

[@yoursola]

Halleluyah Matt He won't answer you. He's a trouble maker troll running to and fro!!!

[@Matiyahu]

555catnap Sir, the Bible does not "support" slavery, infanticide, genocide, or murder. If you are referring to the wars of Israel, and ignoring the overall narrative of scripture you have simply posited an argument out of theological/scholarly ignorance. A lot of people make your claims without knowledge of Scripture--usually riffing off of what they're hear second and third hand from others just as in the dark as themselves. For your proposed foundation of morality there are two major issues to address. First is the ontological question: How can "good"or "bad"exists? Are these values objectively real or subjective? If the former, what establishes such objective categories as good and bad? If the latter, how can any subjective moral system be considered a real foundation of morality at all--said categories would simply be subject to the whims and opinions of each person. Second, "The well being of conscious creatures" is recklessly broad. Are you arguing for utilitarianism as well? Would support the extermination of some people if it would benefit the whole? Again, the greater question for all of this is your ontological basis for the notions of good and evil. This is not just an epistemological question (though one is there), but an ontological question. Both questions may only find an answer in the locus of morality: Christ.

[@bournechupacabra]

555catnap You fail to see his point. Damage to the body is observable but there is not basis on atheism as to why that is bad. Damage to rocks and ice cubes is observable. Just because it is observable, you can't magically conclude that its bad. This is the classic is-ought gap that philosophers have actually posited. I don't know of any philosopher that just takes "damage to conscious creatures is bad" as properly basic and objective. Unless you're referring to like Sam Harris or something in which he is hardly a philosopher.

[@bournechupacabra]

555catnap Oh well I didn't reply to your comment to argue about same-sex marriage necessarily. You were talking about morals and that's what I responded to. Anyways, your humanist morality or whatever we want to call it still cannot cross the is-ought gap. There is no way we can objectively say "flourishing of conscious is good" without appealing to anything transcendent. Why is the flourishing of conscious creatures any more important than any other animal? What makes humans have any intrinsic moral worth other than what we subjectively assign it? Hopefully you watched the craig vs harris debate and saw that Craig as well as many other philosophers easily show that human flourishing and what we consider to be good are not identical. They just happen to coincide in the world we live in. That makes them relative to human evolution. And therefore not objective.

[@gabriellebaalke6704]

Thank you so much for posting this! Do you know where I can see/find the rest of the interview?

[@Matiyahu]

Thank you! You can find the entire interview here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bqSmoHlqqrN_jbM

[@ianfrancis777]

@@Matiyahu I'll give it a listen to. Well Matt, I don't agree with "gay marriage". It is a hijacking of a Biblical ceremony that was intended for a man and a woman. Why would they want to do that anyway? However, I am for civil unions. I wish gays would have pushed for that instead of something that's meant for heterosexuals.

[@michaelbrickley2443]

@@ianfrancis777, they did, initially, at least in the USA. There were all the demonstrations which made Christians look hateful. We don’t have to approve of Adam & Steve but....this is a slippery slope we’re on

[@ianfrancis777]

@@michaelbrickley2443 Yeah, I guess.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

@@ianfrancis777 toiugh luck isn;t it, payback for the inquisition mate.

[@TheAskesis1]

Interesting how he gets to his position versus Ruth badger Ginsberg comments and Christians for Biblical Equality. Creation account can, as Paul Jewett comments, is about relationships. This is so sad as England, starting with Henry vIii break from Rome and the formation of Anglican Church, it was the reformers from Calvin that struggled to free the Church of England from Catholic views replacing the Alter with a communion table, putting English Bibles into churches for all to read, and getting rid of unscriptural Sacraments( means of grace) recognizing Baptism and communion only. The Puritans even refused to wear wedding rings because that was a symbol of the marriage sacrament and Roman Catholicism. Sad sad sad such a mind locked

[@js5866]

Several great books for knowing the truth: Crossing The Tiber, by Stephen Ray. Surprised by Truth, by Patrick Medrid. And if you are Jewish, a great book is Honey from the Rock by Roy Schoeman. God bless you all. He is Risen! Praise God.

[@richlopez5896]

I pray he finds the Ordinariate

[@RobertEWaters]

The term "marriage equality" is in itself propaganda. The question was and is rather "marriage redefinition." Beware of people who seek to accomplish by manipulating language what they cannot accomplish through reasoned debate. Saying that gay and lesbian couples have the constitutional right to the same legal protections as married couples is one thing. Redefining the very word "marriage" in order to bring that about is quite another- and yet that is what Obergefell v. Hodges did. Beware of unintended consequences!

[@officialmoderator1]

Nobody is "redefining" marriage or changing your marriage if you have one. they are merely extending the right to marry to gay people, a significant portion of the population who should never have been deprived of it in the first place. Your argument was lost in 2015 and you have n hope of winning it now or in the future.

[@versioncity1]

Theology amuses me. It is the study of attempting to fit square blocks through round holes.

[@isaacleillhikar4566]

NT Wright was in favour of a c of e pastor in France to be employed in England and that ment the expatriation of his children, who were 16 and 10. What about those Iss Yues.