"Nadu, Winged Wisdom was a design mistake" | Nadu Ban | Magic the Gathering

[@TheCommandersQuarters]

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[@greatoni3239]

the Problem is that in a modern exclusive Set, they print commander cards

[@danielharrison2383]

absolutely. never forget they just want to make money.

[@AlexofZippo]

Genuinely seem to have forgotten what they were supposed to be doing with the set. Part of what makes commander fun is that you can find jank effects that don’t really work in EDH but run them anyways

[@Neonst3r]

Well, it wasn't modern exclusive

[@greatoni3239]

@@Neonst3ri mean Yeah… it is called modern horizon… so you get the Point, it should be a modern Set, not a EDH Set

[@Neonst3r]

@@greatoni3239 wotc has shown that naming conventions aren't used to denote format exclusivity. They could name it "FOR MODERN ONLY" and it'd still be legal in commander. The problem lies with eternal formats becoming an exponentially restricted and difficult design space because everything printed that isn't banned or designated as unofficial (un-sets, though later some exceptions were made) is legal for play

[@affinityforanime]

All they needed to take out was the "or ability" part of its triggers. Only triggers on spells and it would've been fine.

[@rockerknight25]

There's plenty of things they could do to make it less horrible. Like its effect only applies to other creatures, or its effect only happens once per turn per creature, or it only affects nontokens, the list goes on.

[@abodaciousq4863]

How many times people gonna buy into “it was design mistake” like gee seems like a lot of things from simic are oko, uro, nadu. someone’s got the marketing formula down to a T.

[@nopickles420]

Yeah, I keep seeing companies nowadays release things into their game, it immediately makes a big splash with the obviously crazy effect, so people cash out for it, then they say "oopsie" and ban/debuff/"balance" it to hell. Then, they take the money and run. To me, it's more of a grey area to easily falsify your intended product design, and it makes me wonder how many "small mistakes" will lead to so much money going to their pockets. I barely had a chance to open packs with all the hype they try to give these cards already, so I wonder how much of an impact these crazy cards might've had on that, as a casual player/enjoyer of magic cards in general. 😂

[@zombiemanjosh]

​@@nopickles420**coughcough** Komoney **coughcough**

[@avidreader8521]

Why are they printing cards they didn't even bother to playtest?

[@nospoiler]

Less time spent playtesting, more time spent designing, more cards to sell. And if something'a broken people will chase it

[@Trujones]

Welcome to Yugioh's hell

[@Neonst3r]

​@@Trujonesnah, yugioh's regular reality :(

[@Trujones]

@@Neonst3r sadly yes

[@themannyac7582]

Proof that every set is a commander set now

[@zombiemanjosh]

Every set was and is by definition a commander set. What we shouldn't have is every card being designed for commander, takes part of the fun out of commander and a lot of the fun out of other formats.

[@johnoden5932]

For me the biggest problem is just how long it took them to ban a obviously problematic card. I can understand they didnt want to have the ban be a overreaction but come on even people who play and love Nadu admit hes a problem how was this not done sooner.

[@wolflordshaitan]

Wow its like maybe wizards should stop pushing so many sets out a year that they don't have time to test cards.

[@gagegriffin8631]

Sounds like they need to stop making cards for Commander for sets that aren't for Commander specifically. If they focused on Modern for this MODERN set then there would have been a cool simic add to Bant or even a Vanafar Pod deck or who knows. Design needs to ignore Commander like they used to

[@juddo1215]

That's how they make their money unfortunately, so not going to happen.

[@goldcreeper7376]

@dimitriid the RC became consultants for Wotc during the start of the FIRE era. Wotc might not "actually" control the format, but it effectively does and has done for years

[@andrewkelly1337]

It was a "we only hire temporary contractors to play test instead of real R&D" mistake

[@florinalinmarginean1135]

Nadu is definitely way more toxic than Dockside: at least you have to tutor for that one and, if countered or stopped by a stax piece (which is pretty easy), you are good to go. Otherwise, the game usually just ends on the spot and you can shuffle up. Nadu cannot be easily countered by stax pieces and it is in your command zone, paying for its own tax if interacted with and attempting to play solitaire every single turn. I'd say Nadu is way more deserving of a ban. Moreover, casual players are basically building the cEDH version of the deck since common stuff like Lightning Greaves break it immediately. So we are back to Paradox Engine turns, but for two less mana and in the command zone. This s*it needs to go, no one will miss it other than terrible players who are enjoying stomping casual tables with a design mistake that grants them easy wins

[@jbs6614]

Nadu is sorta like the second coming of Paradox Engine - weird, long, nondeterministic turns.

[@nopedefnope9924]

Sounds like they might have fired too many veteran players and designers 😎

[@gavroshtheswift9959]

Yeah magic is already dead idk why we’re holding on, it very obviously is more about the money than the health of the game now

[@imnotacat5299]

​@@gavroshtheswift9959 people have been saying the game is dead for decades now, just ask anyone who plays vintage when they think the game died lmao You are just getting older and have nostalgia for how the game was at one point, but the game is very much still alive and is constantly getting new players who genuinely enjoy the game 😂

[@12jacobmar]

Theres so many skilled Magic players out there, a handful of them playtesting cards could have easily seen that Nadu was a problem.

[@lapsehc]

i dont see how anyone thought the original version was problematic for commander? who are these play testers... anyone that has been playing commander for the past 4 years knows that the power creep is insane and to be honest prophet of kruphix could easily be unbanned now without a problem.

[@k9commander]

Casting things at flash speed is not an issue. That wasn't why Prophet of Kruphix was banned. She was banned because she ALSO untapped all your stuff. Seedborn Muse is powerful, but fine. Leyline of Anticipation is fine. Both effects in one card is not. That's why it was banned and needs to stay banned.

[@bwet2056]

Seedborn is terrible. I might rather see toxrill hit the field. Every turn ala ‘every instanceX’ type effects in general just ruin the pacing and balance of the game

[@lapsehc]

​@@k9commander there are so many power levels of commander play at this point there really shouldn't be any bans besides the power nine and the other obvious things like shahrazad, chaos orb. Is the rules committee still worried people will show up to a casual game of commander with an emrakul or erayo deck if they remove the ban list? The format is old enough and rule zero is a lot more understood by the players base. I mean we have literal salt level ratings on edhrec now. Pretty much the entire ban list can be nuked. Even the Flash ban was a mistake because if the card was reintroduced now it would see only fringe play in cedh. Wouldn't it make sense to have paradox engine back now that everyone is playing dockside? I mean dockside is way worse than primeval titan.

[@k9commander]

@@lapsehc There is so much wrong with what you said/typed. It would take me over an hour to write a proper response. Being that I don't have a computer (only my phone) and not enough patience to write a proper response, I'm choosing to ignore you instead. That (and this response) is the only way for me to maintain what little of my sanity remains.

[@lapsehc]

@@k9commander sorry to shake your world view, i know its hard to believe there is a world that can exist outside of what you think is possible. here is another one that makes no sense. someone can have a turn one sol ring but i cant have a turn one library of alexander? the ban list literally has choices in it from 12 years ago when you could only use a literal elder dragon as your commander...

[@JessicaDuFFie]

I call BS on the explanation. Reading this and knowing corporate design feedback. Some sales and marketing goofff would have pushed we need more powerful cards power creep keeps players forced into a position where they buy cards OR their loved deacks loose power. There is no way in my mind that they missed 0 mana cast and that Nadu will combo with a ham sandwich...

[@Xenick289]

Too much product. Not enough time for quality control. Good quality takes time and a lot of testing. Untested cards being released at the last minute is insane to me.

[@JH-cb2zf]

In my pod we refuse to play against anyone with Nadu, simple. Recently we played in a local game bar, there was a guy who joined us, he had a Nadu deck, and we simply said politely, either change the deck or you cannot play with us 😅

[@ArcoTheProducer]

im sure it was polite

[@LegalPhantom]

What a friendly first impression of your group. Clearly you care about how welcoming this game is to everyone

[@Chronovaya]

Sounds like gatekeeping to me

[@k9commander]

​@@Chronovaya This isn't a tournament. They don't have to play with anyone they don't want to.

[@JH-cb2zf]

Why would I play against a broken card (and now banned) which makes the opponent play solitaire for half an hour each turn?

[@zombiemanjosh]

I think it would be better for the comittee to inverse their stance. Tables can R0 in a card they don't have a problem with just as easy if not more easily than they can R0 out a card that someone at their table is probably already playing and spent money on, and them actually applying bans will influence the formats for the better by providing a baseline of whats considered absurd in those formats.

[@nopickles420]

Cool, glad I pulled him in the one pack I opened.

[@breawycker]

Modern Horizons is 0-3 on not printing cards that need to be banned

[@Raoul9753]

Oh please, we all know that since they started to push out new sets every other month for maximum profit, they dont playtest or balance check cards any more. This one card blew up so bad it had to be banned, but there are tons of cards that are broken AF if anyone with even the slightest knowledge of Magic looks over them. But Hasbro doesnt care, they print it and sell it, done, good earnings for the quarter.

[@donniewullner3]

Shame because the original design is actually really cool and not close to OP and I would have probably built it as I’ve been wanting a good flash commander in decent colors

[@Beaut2013]

I strongly believe habro is putting alot of pressure on wizards to apply powercreep and rapid set relases because hasbro is suffering in the market,in it's other divisions, like action figures. I think Nadu was a result of this.

[@SpectrumIntruder]

Sounds like they are producing cards too fast then, so we are buying untested product. Cool

[@Somethingsomethingyoutube]

They could have fixed everything by just not allowing Nadu to trigger on abilities and instead specify auras, instants, and sorceries. Would still be strong, but not ban worthy.

[@questionyourself718]

No Bans for Standard is craaaazzyy. Gonna be a snoozefest until foundations drops.

[@BrandoThompson]

in a world where Aesi, Tyrant of Gyre Straight is completely fine.

[@urick15]

Okay, so someone explain to me how nadu is busted. Like what does it ability do to make it busted and worthy of being banned?

[@mclovin061]

I wonder what came first in design Nadu or Valient? If it was Nadu than I guess Valient is "fixed" Nadu, Once per turn and weaker effects. If it was Valient than the designer should've known about these issues because there would've been another playgroup testing it out. I just think Nadu and Valient are too similar in design for there not to be a crossover of ideas at somepoint.

[@clasherking4528]

It does have that clause for twice a turn but the problem is that it gives that ability to each creature you control negating the balance the twice per turn clause was trying to achieve

[@mclovin061]

@@clasherking4528 You're right giving the ability each creature is the bigger issue with Nadu, it's just strange to me they fixed basically the same ability on a set released not even two months later then claim they had no idea how strong Nadu could be.

[@k9commander]

Different design teams.

[@mclovin061]

So two design team leads working on sets at the same time have zero interaction?

[@k9commander]

@@mclovin061 Im curious. How do you think the conversation would go? Odds are, by the time Nadu was changed, any conversation they would have had regarding Valiant would have been forgotten. Do you remember everything a coworker said to you a month ago? Or maybe Valiant was made AFTER Nadu was changed. Sets are designed years in advance. Just because the two sets released close to each other doesn't mean they were designed close to each other. We don't know WotC's design schedules. We just know they need more testing on the schedule.

[@gnezlukc]

The problem is nadu isn’t even fun in commander to play against

[@biglove9374]

I'm on the side that thought Golos should be banned (sawry) Nadu is way stronger

[@Makneos]

But once per turn should fix it right?

[@SoyGoncash]

Just end the bird's life in all formats

[@JaimeAGB-pt4xl]

Dear WotC and Commander RC.... if a creature is balanced around the fact "players can just run more removal" .... JUST STOP, It's a Mistake

[@Makneos]

It was

[@IVISMiLESIVI]

bro Wotc hire me. I won't miss stupid things like this lmao.

[@norrock1]

I'm sorry but Dockside is nowhere near as problematic as Nadu

[@GriffythTV]

3 mana FOr a 3/4 flyer is crazy imo, then add abilities is mad

[@doonk6059]

Can we get an errata

[@chrisdetty5367]

Seriously, just drop the "all of your creatures have" line, and Nadu would still be strong. It just would sit and play solitaire for 20 minutes.

[@florinalinmarginean1135]

Can we just get a ban? Nothing in Nadu's text is healthy for the game and most cards on the commander banlist (like Paradox Engine) got axed for a fraction of the crimes Nadu commits

[@Shoyro]

*EVIL LAUGHTER* NADU IS STILL LEGAL IN COMMANDER!!! My plans for a Nadu deck is safe! Remember: Blame Eddie.

[@Uncontested388]

Nadu is weak.

[@urick15]

Okay, so someone explain to me how nadu is busted. Like what does it ability do to make it busted and why its worthy of being banned?