Narrative or Competitive ? Warhammer: The Old World

[@jackofn0trades29]

What I love about the old world in particular compared to other GW games is that it is versatile enough to be both competitive and narratively oriented. With 40K and Sigmar in particular it feels like they are going for very competitive angles and I feel like I seldom see anyone really adding flavor or homebrew into their lists, simply due to the lack of options that you are given, and how games workshop has streamlined the rules to conform very specifically to the models. I like how SDS has specifically broken away from this pattern and so while they have made specific models for every unit available, they encourage you to think outside the box and be creative with how you build your army. I would say that this is a huge factor when it comes to encouraging the narrative aspect of the old world!

[@Dawiafterdark]

I completely agree they have been dumbing down the main games for a few years now and old world really likes like GW are giving us the tools to play the game how we want to play it , which is amazing !

[@PRAISE_HASHUT]

Hats off to the ‘Box of Frogs’ guys that run narrative Old World tournaments in the Derby area. Linked campaigns with evolving stories, special scenarios and lots and lots of flavour!

[@Dawiafterdark]

Il have to try and head to one I did book one but then they had to cancel

[@PRAISE_HASHUT]

@ ahh look forward to seeing you at one of them in the near future then! Great fun and lovely chill crowd!

[@Knoffles]

You beat me to it. Great guys and events. I wish they’d rerun one back in London.

[@Knoffles]

Definitely one of my favourite ‘interview/chats’ you’ve done. It’s always good to get a different perspective. The Triple Crown guys used to run both GT and narrative style events in 8th. I believe they might be available to watch on their channel and the event packs are downloadable from their site.

[@Dawiafterdark]

Thank you glad you enjoyed it !! It’s a real shame they had to shut down !

[@Robster5886]

Most of our group did not convert to old world and still play 8th with house rules. But a couple of mates decided to get into it. We play mostly narrative campaigns. The last one being war of the beard, several scenarios from white dwarf and a few created by the group. The next one will be groms invasion of yvresse. A friend found an old citadel journal and i remembered that the 4th edition starter came with a scenario about grom and eltharion. Most of us are just glad that the old world is back. We'll see what games workshop will make of it.

[@simmo0916]

I’m a huge fan of narrative games - 6th narrative campaigns were awesome. I think the big difference that separates competitive games from narrative ones is quite simple. It’s not your desire to destroy you opponent and win your game - its your list! Pure and simple. If you bring things in a narrative event that is sub optimal but is cool - you are onto a winner!

[@Dawiafterdark]

Yeah the narrative weekends were great for sure !

[@jacawandersmok9043]

36:00 so officaly there is no limit of 3? good to know; i was alwase confuse on that videos what thay were taking about

[@Dawiafterdark]

@@jacawandersmok9043 officially no , it’s just been put into most events by tournament organisers. Nothing stopping you from not using it home :)

[@coljmuzz]

The peak of Narrative, but rules led, gaming, had to be the Realm of Chaos warbands games in 3rd edition. The rules would work in Old World as well with a bit of wiggling. Just being able to develop a warband and champion from scratch and watching his story develop. The books are full of narrative hooks and story lines.

[@Dawiafterdark]

Be great to get stuff like that again , who knows it may come back ! Necromunda is massive now so maybe !

[@thescarletpumpernel3305]

Would love to see Mighty Empires come back, the hex campaign system, with more narrative support for multiple players on the map.

[@Dawiafterdark]

Yessss !!! So much yes !

[@RolandoRatas]

We are screaming for many new things in The Old World and one of them are campaign books which are quite flexible in the type of units which you can take.

[@Dawiafterdark]

@@RolandoRatas a campaign book would be amazing and I’d play the hell out of it for sure !!

[@PsychicalTraumaPL]

That was really great bit, loved listening to it!

[@Dawiafterdark]

Thanks so much !

[@marklangley1734]

I agree with Max 100%, at the start just let the game be open, no restrictions and then you can make an informed decision on what needs to change after 2-3 months before just guessing what is needed. Max we need to talk about narrative gaming on a larger scale !!

[@mikek2662]

Great chat, I really enjoy playing those fun games with infantry only or cavalery:)

[@Dawiafterdark]

Cheers mate , they are definitely fun they look great !

[@t4washere384]

Hope you haven't missed another great Sean Astin performance when he played Raphael in the 2012 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon.

[@Dawiafterdark]

Ohhhhh I love him so much !!

[@mjhsinclair]

Great video. It's early days, but so far it seems like mid-2000s Mighty Empires still works . The Necromunda-style "challenge" mechanic allows people to find a matchup that works "who can do next Sunday, okay I challenge that person". There are some amazing new tools that make it easier, like Wonderdraft and the like so you can make a pretty map digitally. I figured out how to do the non-game parts over a Discord chat and that means people just need to be up for a game every 2-3 weeks, they don't need to all get together at the same time. I'm working on some twists and hero progression might be a great addition next time out. As Max suggested, I tried to keep it lean first time so just running the original rules straight. Main goal is to get people playing more between tournaments and the like.

[@morerobotwarscontent1476]

The thing for me, and probably most people, is that I play the room. I'll sweat for the sweaty events and go full story focused for the narrative events. I am not of half measures haha. Only issue is that every narrative player I know who talks the big game about how things should be played and stillmania and cheesy lists being bad; don't even arrange games or finish any projects, nevermind organise a weekend event. And i think people like me want to play with people who are into the game as much as they are and competitive play is the easiest way to surround yourself with people who match your energy. Not necessarily in terms of wanting to win but they will be up for three games at least and the models will be painted etc. And i think this debate is often between people who dont really get that side of it, if that makes sense?

[@Dawiafterdark]

@@morerobotwarscontent1476 yeah I completely get that , I’m exactly the same I’m all in on the environment that I’m in and love both ways to play for sure . I think both ways to play are valid and both can be very fun but I do find the competitive players usually have more drive to find games . Where narrative can get bogged down in the planning stages . Maybe a book from Gw could help with that . But yeah I completely agree the most vocal against competitive play or even just the game in general don’t actually play it .

[@GilthosDrakoniss]

The best of the very best was 2004 to 2006 when you basically had both you had very strict composition rules that made themed lists but then you played as strong as you could within those rules. Games workshop used Warhammer player societies composition rulesin their grand tournaments.

[@ClydeMillerWynant]

Always good to hear from Max. I guess one of the things the conversation does rather highlight is how big a part of the competitive game list-building seems to be. Not that that has to be seen as a terrible thing of course. I suspect that that is only increased by it being a new game and that to some extent it will calm down a bit over time at least in terms of the extent to which it can revolve around finding weak bits of the rules to play into. The early editions of Warhammer that I played a very long time ago were very much about scenarios, ideally with a GM though it was not beyond the wit of man (or even child) to manage without one, and encouraged you to come up with victory points conditions that related to all manner of different things as well as kills. This was all supported by published scenarios and mini-campaigns either as releases in their own right or in White Dwarf. I hope one day to adapt some of them to the new rules though it is highly likely that I never will! WD pretty quickly moved away from that sort of thing in favour of 'Battle Reports' as early as the late 80s though you could of course replay those yourselves if you wanted to.

[@Dawiafterdark]

I really like all of the old 6th edition wd scenarios and campaign books so if they ever did anything like that again I’d be on it like a rash , I really hope GW does something great in the next year or two !!

[@ClydeMillerWynant]

@@Dawiafterdark You've got me thinking of narrative nonsense for Hereford. Obviously there's an important map knocking about which could have a role or perhaps a wizard or necromancer wants something out of the chained library? Can definitely see the Beastmen wanting to perform some sort of ritual involving the bull statue in the city centre. And the locals will be up in arms anyway about the need to get a bypass built...

[@Flintun]

played fantasy back in the day before they killed it off. Switched to 40k and I got sucked into the competitive side of it. Went back to ToW when it came out, having kept my old empire army. ToW is not meant to be competitive if you leave the competitive side behind with ToW you will have so much more fun.

[@bjornforsberg449]

I have been part of a campaign with knife ears, skellies, empire and the dawi. It is really so much fun! Probably the most fun i have had playing Whfb/ Old world. And the other layer with a map where your able to control your army is just so satisfying. As you say balance is tricky, you both want to give incentive to successful players, but also have some sort of catch up mechanic for people that are not so succesful. Would love to see a campaign book like GW released in 6th, but expanded and maybe less rng. Would be great to have expanded mercenaries section (hobbits!!) and possibly even some regiments of dogs of war. Build your own Morgan Bernhardt sort of thing.

[@Husker44g]

I want to try a narrative campaign with competitive games :) This is possibe!

[@Dawiafterdark]

@@Husker44g that’s the thing it’s all possible ! I was in a two year narrative campaign that was probably sweatier than any normal competitive event haha

[@Husker44g]

@Dawiafterdark amazing,, it can be sweaty if you play with the Mordheim injury chart or something similar lol.

[@ChrisShearston]

Would love to see the campaign rules discussed!

[@benwalkeryt]

Hey interesting rules question I wondered if you’ve encountered at events… In the rules for Random Movement it says they can Wheel but aren’t allowed to perform any other manoeuvres (p176) Reforming is a manoeuvre (p125). All the test to reform after catching a foe, winning a combat etc. are referring to that manoeuvre (example on p157 Pursuing Into A Fresh Enemy). So as far as I can tell random movers like Gigantic Spawn of Chaos actually can’t reform. I wondered if you’ve come across this with them being popular at events?

[@Dawiafterdark]

I could be wrong but I believe they do get the reform :)

[@grlmgor]

The *any other manoeuvres* only applies in the movement phase, so they can reform in the combat phase. Also their most likely a single model and don't need to use reform as wheeling is so much better.

[@benwalkeryt]

@@grlmgor I think because they are a monster / behemoth they count as Close Order. But still you might be right about it only applying in the movement phase, as the sentence that says it can't do any other manoeuvres is preceded by one that talks about it moving in the Compulsory Movement Phase. It's not explicit though...

[@banestojanovski4049]

You guys need to start a regular TOW chat podcast on whatever Warhammah topic comes next! :)

[@Dawiafterdark]

@@banestojanovski4049 so I’ve got the old world Grumblers podcast that’s once a month , I’d love to have max on once a month if I can prize him away from his content !

[@JeffG-n8p]

Love the narrative games. As a forever dirty casual I end up doing these things allot. It’s actually easy to find casual narriitive players than competitive. All these things you all have discussed are relevant and also part of the old wargaming scene. I love that it’s all coming back. !!!

[@Dawiafterdark]

Amazing glad you’re playing the way you want too ! And it’s definitely all coming back !!!!

[@jacawandersmok9043]

3:30 what about arcane jurnal scenarios??? or you think more like long campins like aos path to glory of 40ties crusaders?

[@Dawiafterdark]

@@jacawandersmok9043 yeah full long campaigns would be amazing for sure !! The thing is they could easily do it aswell

[@bottomquark2554]

15:10 Not old world But I am in a pathfinder campaign that runs sessions every monday for the past 3 years? And Im running whfrp2e that so far runs every other week

[@morerobotwarscontent1476]

Watching more of the video, I do not like comp that much but as someone who is kinda stuck in an awkward place (North East Scotland) where the community exists but it takes a bit of effort and you cant just go full power gamer etc, if a part of the UK/world wants to make some changes etc to maintain a community at the expense of a ranking website, then I fully support them.

[@Dawiafterdark]

@@morerobotwarscontent1476 yeah that’s the thing I think the beauty is you can just play how you want !

[@JohnnyH5]

Both styles are good for Warhammer The Old World.

[@Dawiafterdark]

I completely agree :)

[@jayemcbride6772]

how about amiable amy? Or Amy-able? Agreeable amy?

[@Dawiafterdark]

I will definitely run those past her , but if she hits me it’s going straight back hahaha

[@jayemcbride6772]

@@Dawiafterdark haha, fair

[@AmmiraglioMurray]

Remember that there is a third way. The Stillman way!

[@Dawiafterdark]

That’s pretty much what I do find a list I like and stick with it haha

[@ReiverGames]

Narrative AND competitive. Also, who on the world world versus vRs? Madman, it's vs.

[@Dawiafterdark]

Hahaha I think my dyslexia was showing 😂😂😂

[@Swindondruid2]

Campaigns in SAD tend to be 5 - 8 weeks. After that, people lose interest. If you don't mind me advertising another KZbin channel, Big Small Worlds runs an 8th Edition multi-player campaign called Tilea's Troubles. Highly recommended. A lot of the videos are about inter-player politics, so if this is not your thing then skip to the battle reports! The longest campaign I have played in was an ancients campaign using WRG 6th Edition rules. It was called The Known World. I only played for a few years, but the campaign ran for over 30 years and at one point had over 80 players.

[@Dawiafterdark]

@@Swindondruid2 well that campaign sounds amazing ! I played in that 6th edition narrative border prince campaign for two years I think , 30 years would be glorious ! Amazing thank you il go check them out ! Thanks for the recommendation!

[@jens176]

If i need to pay 25 euros entry fee I'll go with a competitive list and go sweaty. If its free entry bring out the forest goblins boyzzz.😂

[@Dawiafterdark]

25 euros ? Bloody events start at 60 quid here !! I’m jealous !!

[@jens176]

Daaaaamnnnn that is way to much!​@@Dawiafterdark

[@MrGunnar177]

The game isn’t meant to be competitive. If it was it would be written like kings of war.

[@Dawiafterdark]

I do enjoy playing it both ways to be honest . I’m really hoping someone steps up and starts running campaign narrative events in the uk , a massive story driven campaign would be amazing

[@MirelurkCakes]

That just sounds like an excuse for bad rules writing.

[@jacawandersmok9043]

uu squats necromunda .... video

[@Dawiafterdark]

He does loads of narrative content !

[@MirelurkCakes]

You need a DM or someone that manages things if you actually want to do a narrative game. It's so cringe when people label themselves as "narrative gamers" who think they're on this opposite side to the people that enjoy the more competitive games, when in reality they're just casual players that play like one game a year.

[@Dawiafterdark]

Yeah you always need someone to keep you on track and interested for sure ! Or don’t play any games at all haha