NASCAR Media Finally Starting To Understand How Broken The Format Is?

i'm hopeful for once? what is this feeling. ew.

[@robertl779]

I figured out how broken the playoffs was when Kyle Busch won the championship after missing a third of the season

[@KidLatin27]

Yeah that's true I think the playoffs are completely stupid and ridiculous and it's completely unfair to the teams and fans and the drivers but NASCAR just doesn't really care.

[@awesomeeli8251]

or when Matt Crafton won the 2019 title without winning a race

[@KidLatin27]

@@awesomeeli8251 or when Ryan Newman almost won the championship with no wins.

[@PaperBanjo64]

@@KidLatin27 and that was year 1 of the playoffs!

[@KidLatin27]

@@PaperBanjo64 yeah that's true.😊

[@whalesequence]

I'll be honest, I thought the chase for the cup was pretty cool when it was first implemented, but I quickly realized how easily manipulated it was when Jimmie broke the format. Full season is the only right way to do a championship.

[@evanwilliams6406]

I liked it when was introduced but later on, it was evident that competitors figured out how to be competitive in the ten races stretch rather than be good all season and as hard it was to see Kenseth win the title with just one win, it really wasn't that bad in fact if not for a few bad breaks he might have won a couple more. But they were the best team all season and they were in the fight almost every week. The only thing they needed to fix on the full season format was the points award for winning so there wasn't a tie in who got max points like in one race in 1997 where Jeff Gordon and Dale Jarrett both got first place point totals because Jarrett got the most laps led bonus in addition to getting the lap led 5 bonus points netting him 180 points and Gordon won the race and picked up 180 points.

[@whalesequence]

@@evanwilliams6406 Yeah, no doubt there would need to be a bigger points advantage to the winner

[@nomadman5288]

@@evanwilliams6406 Well, you had to be good enough to get in the top 10 to start with, so you had to be competitive all year. You had to crank it up in the Chase format and be even better than you were during the season. That's what a playoff type system is supposed to encourage, which it did. I mean, Jimmie was dominating during that stretch winning from 06-10 he had 5, 10, 7, 7 and 6 wins. Then in the last Chase title he had 5 wins and even tho the season wasn't as good overall, he still had 5 wins the year of his 7th. Those are elite numbers. It wasn't like he was just running mid pack and then suddenly turned it on. The dude was consistently winning an avg of 5 races a year for 16 years (83 wins total). He finished second as a rookie, which people also forget. His worst pts finish in his first 12 seasons was 6th and he was runner up in his second and third. Like, these stats are unheard of and nobody seems to notice for some reason. It's kinda wierd.

[@nomadman5288]

How did they "manipulate" the Chase system if everyone could do the same thing they did? He still had to score the points and win the races at the right time. You also forget that he actually had a huge comback during that run. I can't remember the year, but it's the one where he won four straight races towards the end. How is that "manipulation?" How did it brake the format? What about other times when drivers won 3 straight, like Cale or when Dale won 4 out of 5. Was that the system being "manipulated?"

[@evanwilliams6406]

@@nomadman5288 I wouldn't call it manipulating just strategy. They knew the ten races were coming up, and they prepped for those final ten better than everybody else.

[@IanTheMotorsportsMan_YT]

Oh wow, NASCAR, a racing series, is finally figuring out that postseasons are bad for racing and it was a bad idea to begin with? Well at least the media is finally realizing it

[@PaperBanjo64]

Larry Mac probably always thought it was stupid he just couldn't say it and how absurd it's gotten now he couldn't bite his tongue any longer.

[@IanTheMotorsportsMan_YT]

@@PaperBanjo64 I never expect him to be like extremely open, more like professionally open about how bad it's been since Day 1. Good to see and hear that Larry Mac is anti-postseason

[@PaperBanjo64]

​@@IanTheMotorsportsMan_YTLarry Mac is old school, I would guess a large amount of the garage hate it just don't want to bite the hand that feeds them

[@IanTheMotorsportsMan_YT]

@@PaperBanjo64 tbh, there’s nothing wrong with old school. Old school stuff can work and racing stuff are meant to be in racing. If the garage don’t like it, they can suck it up or pack it up

[@UncleT4life]

maybe there is hope

[@PaperBanjo64]

I've called NASCAR a dying series on David Land's video about IndyCar and got chewed out by modern NASCAR DARFs telling me IndyCar was the series dying...if NASCAR isn't dying then why are the car owners NOT happy with the way it's run and why do the drivers hate the race cars?! That's the very definition of a dying series...Dale Jr don't even want any part of owning a Cup Series team! And they tell me it's NOT dying!?

[@RC.41]

Well most fans are autistic now so there’s that

[@PaperBanjo64]

​@@RC.41what fans? I myself actually have autism and I can't stand what NASCAR has become, I either just watch the tail end of the race or don't watch at all except for tracks I really like.

[@RC.41]

@@PaperBanjo64 since some all star deleted my comment and likes to censor freedom of speech I can’t reply. Sorry.

[@PaperBanjo64]

@RC.41 darn it! I took no offense just ain't happy with current day NASCAR

[@runrafarunthebestintheworld]

If there wasn't a chase format in 2004 thru 2006 the ratings would still be through the roof because the only real reason ratings went down in 2007 was because the Entire Xfinity schedule was on ESPN and then Cup was on Fox TNT and ESPN and I could still definitely see ratings go down next year by 5 percent or more.

[@IanTheMotorsportsMan_YT]

Tbh, I kinda disagree. Tho that format is less bad, but I doubt The Chase would still have seasonal growth after 2006 long-term

[@PaperBanjo64]

As much as I love that era as it's when I seriously started watching that's when NASCAR started flirting with Hollywood, inviting celebrities to the track, and trying to abandon the core southern audience for California and New York money, Ricky Craven and Kurt Busch saved Darlington, they wanted to get rid of Darlington and run the Southern California 500 which bombed and 5 years later moved labor day weekend to Atlanta when they should've just brought it back to Darlington...the 2008 recession also took a toll on the NASCAR fanbase, but even then comparing NASCAR in 2010 to now is totally different, it still felt like a big deal back then, now it's just a B or C tier sport.

[@runrafarunthebestintheworld]

@@PaperBanjo64 I think the only reason the Hollywood money doesn't work for NASCAR right now is because NASCAR is seeking it out. There is a way to make it work while still attracting viewers. I mean it worked out well for F1 until the audience found out how boring the racing is.

[@johnsonracingdesigns]

I'm surprised they're actually starting to understand how flawed the playoffs are. There's tons of things that need to be fixed in the sport, in my opinion: Getting rid of gimmicks, better qualifying, more hp in the cars, marketing your drivers to help grow the sport, etc. The entire format just doesn't work. I hope this is a small step in the right direction.

[@TimJohnson-e3z]

especially the qualifying. How in the actual fuck do you ruin qualifying?!

[@JackLikesTrackhouse]

If the win and in guarantee got removed and the championship wasn’t decided by a single race the playoffs wouldn’t be anywhere near as controversial as they are.

[@TimJohnson-e3z]

that would definitely help for sure

[@IanTheMotorsportsMan_YT]

it's still controversial cuz postseasons are not supposed to be in auto racing.

[@evanwilliams6406]

They don't have any relevancy. Even the words playoffs don't even work in this type of series. They are racing, not playing games. I mean I remember the slogan "Everything else is just a game".

[@TimJohnson-e3z]

@@evanwilliams6406 they could at least call it the raceoffs

[@TimJohnson-e3z]

@@IanTheMotorsportsMan_YT true I agree but it would certainly help

[@SuperNASCARrocks]

Wow. They’re actually starting to figure out what we’ve known all along. Took them long enough.

[@ashketchumsdad]

There is less "hype" for the playoffs within Nascar this year than there has been since the chase began. Between the cars that ended up making it, and starting the playoffs with Atlanta, it feels like people just want to get this season over with. I've never seen that this early in the season. 2015 was kind of like that, but the mess pretty much started in the chase.

[@jc1424]

@@ashketchumsdad as far as I'm concerned the season is already over, the post-season is just that... stuff that they do after the season

[@PaperBanjo64]

This season has been horrible! A few good moments cannot save an otherwise bad season, and I thought 2018 was bad! This is much much worse!

[@AlanNadeauIII]

I think they all understood, its just taken them this long to acknowledge it

[@BtkOutlaw3]

From 1984 to 2003, 80% of the drivers that won the championship had the best average finish among full time competitors. From 2004 to 2023, only 30% of the drivers who won the championship had the best average finish. The playoffs don’t work in NASCAR! The sport should go back to the season long points format.

[@nomadman5288]

I personally have an idea for a sort of hybrid, non-playoff format which takes the Winston staggered point distrubution 5, 4, 3 down to 3, 2, 1. It keeps the 3 stages for ovals and goes to 2 stages for road courses with the same points, then brings back bonus points with 3 pts for leading the most laps, 1 pt for leading a lap and 1 pt for the pole. It rewards winning more than any other system we've seen too. The max pts for a race is 100. I would look this. 1: 75 2: 50 3: 47 4: 44 5: 41 6: 38 7: 36 8: 34 9: 32 10: 30 11: 28 12th to 36th: 27-3 pts by 1 pt increments. Then for any extra drivers 37th to 39th get 2 pts and 40th to 43rd get 1. The season would be 31-33 races with 1 race per venue. It brings back The Rock, Wilkesboro, and possibly Kentucky, but also adds Milwaukee, Circuit GIlles-Villenueve, Mexico City, and potentially Interlagos and Long Beach as the street race (or Laguna Seca) and for the California market.

[@Busch22Fan]

What do you wanna bet Larry will be "going on vacation" soon? And won't be back?

[@mattyice1738]

Matt Crafton's 3rd championship exposed it awhile back.

[@C-Rad95]

Here's the list of every driver that only made the Chase because of the Win & In Stipulation 2014: Almirola, Allmendinger, Hamlin, Ku Busch & Ky Busch 2015: Ky Busch 2016: Buescher & Stewart 2017: A Dillon & Stenhouse 2018: A Dillon 2019: Chase field consisted of top 16 in pts 2020: A Dillon & Custer 2021: McDowell & Almirola 2022: Briscoe & A Dillon 2023: Stenhouse 2024: Suarez, Cindric, Burton & Briscoe

[@JackLikesTrackhouse]

Kinda odd how Dillon made it totally legitimately in 2016 (and arguably should’ve in 2020 as well) but every other times he’s made it it’s been off of a random ass win lol

[@WhatiFRacing]

Jeez so basically 22 instances of drivers being 17th on back on pts winning their way in. Much more then what I thought but thanks for making the list

[@C-Rad95]

@WhatiFRacing also forgot Kasey Kahne in 2017 as well so make that 23 instances

[@jc1424]

oh wow this year is the first to have more than two in a decade lol

[@BrianIsTheGOAT594]

Stenhouse in 2023 was actually good though. If you would put Ricky Stenhouse Jr. in there from 2023, then also Michael McDowell.

[@oscarjimenezsr.560]

Dale Earnhardt won 7 titles with no playoffs, and his ghost is mocking those defend the playoffs

[@Rabbitface656]

I think Elite and Slap made excellent videos on the playoffs that gave sound reasoning; which included addressing the oppositions’ arguments.

[@MarkOliveras0215]

People in the media are actually speaking out on this? Maybe there is some hope after all! I don’t mind a Chase format that’s not the issue. It’s the way it’s constructed that’s the problem. And like you said, it’s sad that this generation will only know how it is today which can also be a good thing for some fans like me for example as I have younger friends who I turn into The History Channel for when speaking to them about Early 2000s NASCAR that I’m a sucker for since they didn’t get to witness that magical time period due not being alive back then so they get a history lesson on how good I had it as a kid myself. And yeah I agree with the whole qualifying mess. At least go back to single car qualifying. If they got rid of group qualifying no problem once, they can do it again!

[@jc1424]

I'm not sure I care what NASCAR does about the playoffs anymore. Even if they did "fix it" they've permanently tainted the history books and ignored all the responses from fans and drivers, making their priorities for entertainment perfectly clear. NASCAR's playoffs and now even how they officiate races are not for people who love racing, it's for people who are bored. I don't love NASCAR. I resent NASCAR. I have an attachment to it after collecting diecasts, video games, and memories of lore since I was 4 years old. And I wish I didn't. So I've found myself actively cutting off the playoffs every year since the driver who got the best results gets a trophy beforehand. And they simply can't undo going on 12 years of race & championship manipulation "detrimental to stock car racing" so don't even bother trying. As far as I'm concerned it's way too late.

[@evanwilliams6406]

Listen, just be thankful for the era you grew up in and be proud you witnessed NASCAR when it was something you enjoyed, and it was a national phenomenon, and they didn't market the championship. They marketed the drivers and the tracks and the races! In NBA you have the NBA Finals, the NHL you have the Stanley Cup Finals, and in the NFL, you have the Super Bowl. Playoffs work in these sports because it is one team against another. In racing, you have 39-43 competitors and even though there are eliminations, they still have to race the next week. I could go on and on. Point is, NASCAR got my attention because it was different from all those sports, trying to put quarters, rounds and a winner take all championship race is what NFL, NBA, and NHL isn't what made NASCAR great. What made it great was the design and paint schemes of the cars. They were eye catching and you knew who drove what and what brand they ran with.

[@jc1424]

@@evanwilliams6406 Same with me, but after the fact it could be taken seriously. But that was a long time ago.

[@MacNur-tu3cq]

Amen JC

[@evanwilliams6406]

@@jc1424 The Nascar that I knew died a long time ago. I don't feel any connection to this era. I used to never want to miss a race, now I could care less because the season doesn't really matter. I do harbor some resentment because they killed dominance and they ruined the careers of some drivers because of their changes to other cars that did not fit their driving styles and eliminating practice sessions to dial the cars in. The cars used to have practice times and they were built out of the shop. Now NASCAR supplies the parts and pieces in a box and says "Let's go race".

[@UncleT4life]

people speaking out against this. Is there hope?

[@voltz3346]

I had been a Nascar fan for 30yrs. This year is the first year I decided not to watch it. I just had enough. You ask why aren't things changing? Because they haven't been hit where it hurts. It will only change when viewers drop drastically, the masses become vocal to the point of not being able to ignoring it and their pocketbooks get hit.....period. Over time people have become blindly complacent about what the sport has become and they just accept what some ignorant desk jockeys decided in a back room.

[@evanwilliams6406]

Like I said, they will keep doing it until it's no longer profitable. They got to get hit in the pocketbooks enough.

[@PaperBanjo64]

I feel NASCAR would double down more on the gimmicks before going back to 2003 rules, and the new fans would eat it up and tell us longtime fans we're boomers and regurgitate "YoU tHiNk NaScAr DiEd WiTh DaLe!" BS and a lot of us longtime fans aren't old farts but started watching in the 90's and 2000's as kids not as adults...most likely the vocal majority of fans wanting it like it used to be are 90's/2000's fans who want our childhood NASCAR back most of the people wanting to see them go back to racing old cars are all old AF and couldn't get to races anyway we shouldn't cater to them anyway we don't want real road cars racing and the average margin of victory 5 laps like the modern fans think, we just want an evolved late model on steroids with a ton of horsepower that's hard to drive and puts on good racing throughout the field, no stages or phantom debris cautions, and no gimmicky championship formats that don't reward the driver who performed best all season.

[@PaperBanjo64]

I feel NASCAR would double down more on the gimmicks before going back to 2003 rules, and the new fans would eat it up and tell us longtime fans we're boomers and regurgitate "YoU tHiNk NaScAr DiEd WiTh DaLe!" BS and a lot of us longtime fans aren't old farts but started watching in the 90's and 2000's as kids not as adults...most likely the vocal majority of fans wanting it like it used to be are 90's/2000's fans who want our childhood NASCAR back most of the people wanting to see them go back to racing old cars are all old AF and couldn't get to races anyway we shouldn't cater to them anyway we don't want real road cars racing and the average margin of victory 5 laps like the modern fans think, we just want an evolved late model on steroids with a ton of horsepower that's hard to drive and puts on good racing throughout the field, no stages or phantom debris cautions, and no gimmicky championship formats that don't reward the driver who performed best all season.

[@nomadman5288]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "deserving" for the Chase years because Jimmie won 5, 10, 7, 7, and 6 races during his 5 in a row streak while also having over 20 top 10s in all 5 seasons and no less than 13 top 5s. His worst avg finish of those 5 years was 10.8. So, I mean, what exactly is the criteria we're using here? If you use the Winston format, you have to consider the changes in stragies or even how the drivers might race in particular situation with one format versus the other. Again, I think Denny's point was that in all of the Chase seasons, the eventual winner was clearly the best over those 10 races (not just "good enough" for 7 or 8) and because there was only 10-12 drivers, and the pts were reconfigured to start the Chase, you had to be even better than you were during the season in order to win. Not to mention if you go back and look at the drivers in those years, the field is freaking stacked. The fact that someone could win 5 in a row with that field, witht he changing cars and the format the way it was is crazy and underappreciated. Jimmie really doesn't get the credit he should, imo. 35 wins in 5 seasons! That's insane production! Elite of the elite.

[@nomadman5288]

I think Denny meant that it's not been glaring like coming from 30th. It's been guys in the top 20 pretty much. I mean, I don't think the last few sports really matter anyways becasue they're not winning the title if they can't run in the top 10-15 conisstently throughout the season. If they're always 22nd, they're not magically going to show up in the final 10 races and avg 10th place finishes. That's just not how it works.

[@KidLatin27]

Well I mean wherever you guys like the playoffs or not thats fine I mean if I was in charge of NASCAR I would suggest doing the 2007 format instead because the playoffs that we have nowadays it's unfair to the teams and the drivers and the fans as well too and NASCAR definitely needs to realize that the playoffs are completely stupid and ridiculous but NASCAR just doesn't really care.

[@jc1424]

@@KidLatin27 as terrible as NASCAR 08 has been for me to play on my channel, the Chase system they starting using in 2007 was solid

[@KidLatin27]

@@jc1424 I know plus I like your videos as well too and yeah I liked the 2007 playoff system a lot more better as well I mean if I was in charge of NASCAR I would get rid of the win and you're in thing keep the stage points and have the playoffs just be 12 drivers instead.

[@IanTheMotorsportsMan_YT]

don't do em, cuz postseasons do not belong in auto racing

[@KidLatin27]

@@IanTheMotorsportsMan_YT 2003

[@IanTheMotorsportsMan_YT]

@@KidLatin27 nothing bad happened in 2003, NASCAR Land we’re nothing but crybabies cuz Kenseth did what he did

[@TimJohnson-e3z]

this is a good sign at least we know there are some people in the media that hate this lol

[@PaperBanjo64]

We either need Dale Jr running NASCAR or a split...NASCAR has fucked up the sport beyond recognition, spec sports cars on ovals, stupid championship format, stupid stages and green-white-checkers, something HAS TO change or nobody but DARFs who don't know better and started watching in 2022 and later will still be watching, it hurts to see what the Frances, and the Steves have done to this sport!

[@PaperBanjo64]

Indy 500 has faster cars behind slower speeds because of having qualifying on multiple days, NASCAR qualifying is broken into multiple segments, that's the least problematic thing in NASCAR.

[@PaperBanjo64]

What do you guys think about 23XI and Front Row refusing to sign the new charter agreement?

[@PaperBanjo64]

@WhatiFRacing I'm hearing Martin Truex Jr will be running one last race in next year's Daytona 500...you'll have to postpone no longer being a NASCAR fan until Atlanta next year.

[@FloridaManRacer]

Only took them almost 20 years to realize that gimmicks feel cheap and leave the system open to manipulation. NASCAR can piss off. It's just not worth my time. I had enough years with the old format of racing and championship to know how much of a clown show today's NASCAR looks like. and that's why I watch CARS Tour instead.

[@johnsonracingdesigns]

...and if it went back to the pre-2004 format (which is what I want, honestly), you can come right back! 🤣

[@FloridaManRacer]

@@johnsonracingdesigns They'd have to get rid of the GT3 car with a spoiler first. I want a proper Gen 6 replacement Stockcar, not a flat bottomed, aero monster that looks like it should be at Le Mans (which it literally was)

[@PaperBanjo64]

​@FloridaManRacer same I HATE the crappy ass gen 7 car it's a sports car not a stock car, bring back gen 6 chassis with a gen 4 influenced body with a valence and put the door number back in the center where it belongs, and no less than 750 HP it's a disgrace a top level series has less than 700!

[@kadenlemon495]

Denny doewnt mean people who were in the top 20. I’d say as far as a system like this, top 20’s a lot more reasonable. He means like 2016 with Chris or like this year with Harrison Burton. That’s what he means. Not every driver that ever won that wasn’t in the top 16, though if we go off of that, Austin’s Dillon’s the king of those wins. Top 30 rule didn’t prevent this as seen again in 2016. And I can agree this has been a problem for a while and one NASCAR opened themselves to when they created it and opened even more when they removed the top 30 rule.

[@evanwilliams6406]

Shoot, it's the only chance he has...

[@QueenJosephineOfTheNorth]

Apologies to the Larson fans but I'm hoping he has another bad run this weekend and next and gets eliminated in round 1 just to make the playoffs more of a farce.

[@midwesttrainchasers8587]

Mamba is in every nascar video it seems and hes not entertaining

[@evanwilliams6406]

He believes he is the hype guy for this new generation, and he is the guy that can change people's mind about this format, but he just comes off as a shill and that isn't good.

[@midwesttrainchasers8587]

@evanwilliams6406 he's incredibly boring to listen to and he's uninteresting as h

[@ojtoothpaste2240]

Who cares what Daniella trotta thinks? She has never raced before. She's just on the show because of eye candy.

[@johnsonracingdesigns]

Well, I'd disagree due to the fact that she's the host of the show w/ Larry Mac. But, that's just my thoughts. 🤷🏽‍♂