Negotiating with the Thieves' Guild - Vox Machina, Ep. 42 | Critical Role Demystified

Vox Machina decides they need to talk to the city’s underground, so they meet with the Clasp.
CW: Cussing
Chapters:
00:00 - Recap: Vox Machina Finally Makes a Plan
06:03 - Lesson: Thordak Has Minions Now? Thordak Has Minions Now.
09:56 - Lesson: How Liam Uses Vax’s Backstory
13:05 - Lesson: The Negotiations with the Clasp
34:26 - Recap: Leaving the Keep Behind
39:16 - Lesson: Just Ask Your Players What They Want to Do Next Session
40:23 - Outro
You can watch the full episode here:
Episode 42 - Dangerous Dealings
• Dangerous Dealings | C...
Recommended Reading:
7 Ways to Handle Missing Players: • 7 Ways to Handle Missi...
There's Nobody to Call: Destroying the Heroes' Support System: • There's Nobody to Call...
How Much Backstory Should You Give Your GM? • How Much Backstory Sho...
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[@SupergeekMike]

Would you have taken the deal with the Clasp?

[@AdamEspersona]

Never. Too many strings attached.

[@OrpheusSpyros5]

Depends on the PC I'm running honestly. My Battlemaster Fighter PC(Ser Nate Trevelyan-V.Human, ml-Noble Background-NG) Would take the Deal for a lot of similar reasons that Percy would've. As a Ruler, sometimes you gotta do something that seems "Wrong" to help the most amount of People. My Beastmaster Ranger(Griffith Mayberry-Stoutheart Halfling, ml-Folk Hero Background- NG) would've refused like Keylith did. There's Right and Wrong in the Universe. If we start taking shortcuts along the Path, then we'll eventually become no better than the Monster's we fight.

[@lt3746]

My current pc, no. He got screwed one too many times when he worked for an assassin’s guild. But I’ve had plenty of characters in the past that would have happily done it and probably given Shenn extra as a gift to ensure his favor.

[@KKRDM]

I woulda loved to have seen how it changed future campaigns.

[@SummerOtaku]

If I was playing a character like Percy I totally would. I would just be very choosy who I introduce the clasp to, and make sure that that person has enough power or blackmail to make sure any discussions are at their advantage.

[@BigKlingy]

What's interesting about the "skill dogpile" is the results work out in-character. Vex and Vax not only didn't spend a ton of time in Syngorn, but their memories of their time there aren't exactly present. It kinda makes sense that they wouldn't have much interest in learning its history, while Percy, who studied the Feywild as a hobby growing up, would be far more likely to have that information. Pure coincidence due to how the dice fell, but it's cool when things like this happen (like Grog being the only one to recognize a stone giant fortress).

[@RoyalHeather]

The way I read Keyleth's comment is that she doesn't view herself as "higher" than those she rules, e.g. she operates by the same morality that governs everyday folk. In opposition to Percy's stance of "the burdens of a ruler are different, and therefore my actions are justified"

[@birdfurnace]

boost

[@The_Sharktocrab]

And they're both right

[@zippomage]

hm,m, that reads.

[@verdantmistral442]

I think the issue is Percy is talking about not being better than the criminals morally. Keyleth misses the point Percy's making and thinking he's talking about the value of the people you rule. She sees herself as less important than the people and a servant, but that also sort of proves Percy's point as she's claiming the moral highground thinking that working with less moral people is beneath her. Percy is saying you do what you have to to give your people the best life even if it means you do bad things and Keyleth implies she won't bend her morals even to help her people. I think it just shows her naivety.

[@The_Sharktocrab]

@@verdantmistral442 good point

[@KKRDM]

One thing I think is important to add regarding Percy and Kiki's disagreement: Mike is right. Neither of them are "right" when they call each other out for being "above the clasp". However... both Tal and Marisha played thier character's perspectives perfectly (IMO). This is a great example of good, "its what my character would say" inter'party drama.

[@aidanmillow566]

Funnily I think the opposite: I think they're both right when they call each other out and wrong when they say they don't think of themselves as being such. Unless you mean neither of them was right in the sense that the conversation wasn't helpful, which is fair.

[@kiwithekiki234]

I personally like interpreting Keyleth's "you think you're better than them" as Percy thinks he's more clever, that he can come out of top of this deal based on his skill. I still don't think she's entirely right there if that's her meaning, but I like the juxtaposition of the possibility of Percy thinking Keyleth is too high and mighty about morality while Keyleth thinks Percy is to proud about his skill and wit.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

But Percy doesn't think that. And that's why the argument comes across so stilted. Percy has a valid point; a ruler doesn't just have a responsibility to upstanding citizens, but also the lowest of the low. He's not trying to "come out ahead". He's trying to convince self-interested people that their self-interests include protecting some things that Vox Machina wants to protect. That's the core of a moral business practice. Your deals don't seek to come out ahead, they seek mutual gain. And Keyleth's rebuttal to that is "I don't like them therefore I should do everything I can to make sure they do not flourish". It's vindictive. Which is a really weird thing for someone trying to seek the higher moral cause to be.

[@kiwithekiki234]

@@dontmisunderstand6041 I think we have very different interpretations of what Keyleth's motivations are in this scene and we can agree to disagree there. I'm not saying either of them are right. I think they are both partly right and mostly wrong about their assessments of each other. I agree with Percy in his assessment of leadership and think that his worldview here shows wisdom. However, I think Percy has a track record of dealing with unsavory folk and thinking that he can come out ahead. It sometimes works and it sometimes doesn't. In the case of the clasp, he at least trusts his negotiating enough to not get screwed over by them when they don't exactly have a reputation for loyalty and integrity except when it comes to coin and power. However, the clasp is self-serving and will take as much as they can get. He thinks he can outplay them in order to get an equal deal. Percy's strength comes from his intelligence and his cunning. Keyleth's strength comes from her morality and integrity. However, both of their strengths can be taken too far. These characters can see that in each other, that's why I love their dynamic. They love and support each other, but have such different worldviews that they can see the weaknesses of the other.

[@dolphin64575]

I love watching Percy and Keyleth disagree and still be best friends who love and respect each other

[@danielmcgillis270]

It would be a better world if more people could be that way. And that is what a best friend is, somebody whom you can disagree with and still be somebody you love and respect. Those kinds of friends are hard to find.

[@CardboardMoose]

I THINK what Keyleth was getting at might have been "Percy does think he's better than the Clasp because he's using them as a tool, whereas she doesn't see people as pieces on a game board."

[@richiego1n]

I more read it as Keyleth saying she respected the will of the group where Percy was willing to make the deal without the enthusiastic consent of the majority.

[@wolfox7776]

Another nice callback I liked at the Slayers Take was that Thorbir gambling, and losing badly.

[@davos6129]

I feel the need to point out that the novel "Kith & Kin" is all about the story how Vax got involved with the Clasp. I can highly recommend the audiobook, as it is read by Robbie Daymond, as well as Liam and Laura voicing their characters

[@UmbraKrameri]

Yeah, I really enjoyed the book and it went into more detail about this part of their backstory.

[@IgnisKhan]

I haven't read the novel, but know of it's existence because Mike has always had it on the bookshelf behind him. ;)

[@fakjbf3129]

Honestly both sides were asking for impossible things. Vox Machina does not have the connections in Vasselheim to actually be useful at making introductions, at best they could introduce them to the Slayer’s Take but that’s such low hanging fruit there’s no way the Clasp can’t already make that connection for themself. And the only thing the Clasp would be useful for is organizing a spy network to keep tabs on Thordak’s plans and maybe helping to smuggle in supplies to help refugees or prepare for an attack. But even with these their resources are limited and they would already want to be doing these things for free anyways just to get rid of the dragons, them asking for payment is just extorting the party because they can. I definitely wouldn’t have taken the deal because the Clasp just isn’t trustworthy enough to give them any kind of blank check.

[@thystldown]

I think the main difference in my approach would have been treating the interaction with the Clasp as a gesture of goodwill rather than a Formal Deal. Like, just loading up a bag of holding with supplies/food from the keep that would have gone to waste, or possibly doing so in Whitestone, and then going to the Clasp like, “Hey, we know you got hit hard, this isn’t everything you need and we don’t know if/when we’ll be able to get more, but hopefully it helps. Also let’s keep lines of communication open.” It might not have worked out any better than what VM did, but at least it wouldn’t have been approaching with a deal and then insulting them by retracting it.

[@italulu]

Oh yeah, Scanlan's mom. I forget what her name was...

[@lefterismplanas4977]

I very much like Percy here. He knows what he's doing and it's dark. Its not something that vox machina would do... but he knows that he's doing it and he not afraid. After all, why go meet with the criminals if you're not willing to agree to something criminal? He knew that, but the rest of VM didn't like that. So they just made some enemies and left

[@SummerOtaku]

Oh man!!! My jaw dropped at just what Percy was offering up. He could be letting in a really bad influence to Whitestone and supplying them with power and the sort of things that fuel his guilt. For this reason I’m kinda glad they didn’t take the deal but I think how they treated Percy was a little shitty. 😅 if you ever make a video about the Percy & Keyleth relationship down the road I think that would be super interesting given recent events. Also Vex saying they have different thoughts on leading is so intriguing given how that relationship develops ~

[@OccidentalAvian]

For the record by the way, the Kith & Kin novel retconned the Vex decoy to be the Clasp agent who tried to abduct her. With Vax interceding, he failed one too many times and that was his punishment. Also fun fact, the tongue staff is the Despoiler of Flesh, a magic item from the 3E sourcebook the Book of Vile Darkness, same as the Dread Emperor.

[@Boundwithflame23]

I think K&K retconned some other Clasp stuff and some stuff regarding how they found Trinket too (animated series as well to some degree for Trinket). But it’s been a minute

[@Skip6235]

Spoilers for Campaign 3!! Campaign 1: “Let’s steal an airship! It will be awesome!” Campaign 3: “Let’s crash our airship! It will be awesome!”

[@JoeGrzzly]

And it was! At the time it was dubious what effect the crash had, but one of Matt's NPCs later confirmed that the airship had caused significant damage to both the mooks on the site and the structure it had crashed into. If Vox Machina had done the same to Thordak, it likely would have worked out well, especially with the higher power level Vox had compared to the Bells.

[@skylark7921]

Lmao. And I will always love how LD (abbreviated to avoid spoilers) just…. Kept monologuing. He was just like “ugh that *almost* ruined my moment. Anyway”

[@xxliew]

Thank you so much for highlighting Vex's reaction to leaving their home! Laura Bailey gets so immersed in the story and does such amazing character work here, and I love that you're drawing attention to it in this rewatch, it deserves so much recognition!

[@ani_anonymuncle]

Keyleth is a deontologists and Percy a consequentialist and it really shows in this episode. Actually - I think the fact that Keyleth is a deontologists is a big source of the friction some viewers have with her. Whatever you think of that morality it *does* conflict with her actions and arguably the very logic of a D&D game, and while I think she does very interesting and lovely things with that ludonarrative dissonance...it is also by nature a hypocrisy and tension.

[@T.H_E.O]

What do you mean when you say "that morality (...) does conflict with her actions and arguably the very logic of D&D game"? And also i feel (personally, but also i've watched C1 more recently not when it came out) it made keyleth much more realistic than other characters like Vax or Percy who both really annoyed me as the typical "my life was so hard so i can act like an arse and be pretentious". It stuns me everytime i hear how much sh*t Keyleth got cause she was (again, to me, a 25yo french homosexual with a masters in Social Sciences ahahah) the most fun a real character, along with Scanlan i suppose of course. Especially when you know utilitarism is not that popular nowadays in moral philosophy, and we tend to go more with Keyleth pov. (sorry if i don't make sense i had lots of ideas at the same time ahaha).

[@ani_anonymuncle]

​@@T.H_E.O Oh I LOVE Keyleth too - definitely not a criticism of her. :) But I don't think she's a utilitarian (the way many of the characters are). I personally think she's a deontologist as she a) attempts to see every person/creature as an ends in themself and b) attempts to confirm that this moral action would be universally moral, and not just convenient at the time. That is, she wants the group to follow a moral code and "do the right thing", not the the thing that is most convenient or direct. I think this situation with the Clasp is a good example of it - Percy is arguing "okay, I know working with a band of thieves is generally not a good idea but the ends justify the means" and Keyleth is arguing "you can't just justify means - handing over what they are asking isn't moral, regardless of this whole dragon situation". But this kind of conflict - "we can't think of what this means in isolation, this one action we're talking about informs our entire character and worldview" is something that comes up with her often, especially as part of her leadership journey. The reason I think this comes into conflict in the game is a) sometimes they do have to make a utilitarian choice, and then she has to deal with the consequences of that and b) arguably, I think D&D isn't a world that functions super well with a deontological moral code. Like, you can't really pause and think about how the giant spider fits into its ecosystem and set up a nonprofit that protects them. Or, you CAN... but most of a D&D game is going to be about either running away or fighting the giant spider and usually when you fight it you kill it. The function of the game is very, very consequentialist. That doesn't mean the narrative on top of it has to be but... I think if you go too far astray, you end up with an odd dissonance between how you're treating the game and how the rules are treating you. But, just my two cents - I could be very wrong! ;)

[@juliec8090]

Just realized what information the Clasp could have provided: the fact that Seeker Asuum was still in Emon, and whoever was in Whitestone was a fraud. And that…. hoooooboy. I don’t know that it would have changed the trajectory of the story, but it probably would have felt like it to the players in that moment, at least.

[@nickbrown638]

Oh shit, yeah! I wonder what they would’ve done with that info, like try to take down the fake Asuum without the knowledge that he was Raishan. Imagine if they caught her, and she tried to make the deal then.

[@neelost5984]

"A reference to Scanlan's dead mother, she really does not come up often during the campaign" 👀👀👀👀

[@mkang8782]

Whether or not I would have taken the deal would definitely have depended on the character I was playing. Some would probably have been fine with it, others decidedly against it. One of the harder lessons to impart to a party of PCs is that they don't always hold the upper hand in negotiations. Laura (as Vex) is particularly guilty of this, and takes a while to learn it. Vox Machina, as a whole, are also prone to embrace this mindset, to their detriment. Good video, Mike.

[@presetregret184]

It's hard to RP politicking. It's easy to broker a deal with a shopkeeper or quest giver. But trying to negotiate with organizations or nations? What's the GDP of Whitestone? How many tons of grain are needed to feed a city? What paperwork is needed to help a thieves' guild "establish a foothold" in a city? What dice do I roll for that? Between that and it being improv, it always feels like the players themselves are asking the DM "what am I allowed to offer, and what am I allowed to demand?"

[@joshricks1273]

The audio book "Kith and Kin" cover the portion of Vaxes backstory mentioned in this episode. It was truly fantastic, I would highly recommend a listen.

[@lt3746]

The Scanlan mom references are very cheeky.

[@undeathghost5627]

Testing the waters

[@12sephiroth]

yeeaahh! i fricking love your demystified series. not only to relive the first campaign, but also for your great inside on nuanced details, as well as the learnings you point out. (sorry not an native speaker. probably riddled with grammar errors ^^)

[@bristowski]

This is a good channel. This is a good series. I like Mike.

[@SonicTheHedgedawg]

Oh thanks for this! I remember watching this live I was frustrated with Vox Machina for meeting with the Clasp too make a deal then backing out, essentially making an enemy they didn't have to for no reason. But looking back on it, it makes more sense how and why it happened

[@RobertKaucher]

I just wanted to say that I was not subscribed and did not realize it until you mentioned it! Remedied

[@Samaru163]

Hold up, the Clasp has the Despoiler of Flesh and used it to make a body-double of Vex? Damn, I missed that during the first viewing of the series. Imagine if the PCss had managed to get their hands on such a powerful and evil artifact.

[@Lurklen]

This is actually a great lesson, worth it's own episode honestly. Just asking what your players are going to do next session, especially when they've hit the "We can kind of go anywhere" tier of play, is a must. But it can be helpful in lower tiers too. It can save us DM's a lot of stress and worry if you guys aren't going to head to the Blood Keep of Immortus, and it can save everyone some boring table time if someone wants to buy a million things or get their armour done up to look like lions with smiley faces or whatever (and I'm not even saying skip those events, or do them between session. Knowing about them before hand allows a DM to make those moments flow nicely at the table instead of getting squeezed in amidst a bunch of other ad-hoc moments). It's just a good thing to get in the habit of doing when your players have lots of options (or even when you think they don't, there's nothing more discouraging than prepping a boss fight to learn that the party is gonna bamf out of the dungeon because they've rethought this whole fighting a Lich thing.)

[@DeeEll1]

i love this series. im so excited for the ep 44 demystified

[@Quon_the_Destroyer]

really enjoyed this one, keep up the good work man!

[@HydraneousHadokenPent-Striker]

This episode also marks their change in seating arrangement so Marisha and Liam could be closer together when doing Vaxleth scenes.

[@Komskorner]

"She doesn't come up that often" Oof... rip Scanlan... but Taryon was great as well 😅😅

[@StonedHunter]

All I can really say is that the part should have had a solid, unified plan when going into the deal, and likely should have approached it more as a collaboration instead of a deal. A less formal "we need to watch out for each other while everything goes to shit" arrangement. Beyond that, it really doesn't seem like there was a "good" outcome to this and I would have likely argued against even bothering to talk to them and instead use the time/effort for better things.

[@Wiz_and_Pippy]

Great vid, fun stuff! The bit about Liam using his own backstory... It's tanned my hide more than a few times trying to get the point across to players that they need to be using their own backstory, it's not just for the DM. Maybe it's just my unfortunate experience but I find new players will often come to the table expecting the hooks and backstory integration to come 100% from the DM-side, when that's just impossible frankly. Just session 0 things, always is!

[@sunnygcat13]

Hope everyone is doing well Mike!

[@AdThe1st]

Kept checking my notifications waiting for more of your banging videos

[@FranklinLongallnitelong22]

During the beginning of Campaign 3. I binged on Campaign 1...finishing it in like three months. Sometimes two episodes a day. So, watching you go over these episodes is like a refresher course and a look into what is ahead in the Exandria story.

[@emmathomas2832]

Very similar hat! Gotta love watching like 7 hours of DnD a day for 3 months

[@darkcardking]

I think her statement was "I don't think I am better than them, I know I am" At least that was how it seemed to me.

[@MorningDusk7734]

The alarm really made me jump

[@OrpheusSpyros5]

Hope your feeling better Mike and everything is Cool!

[@TakeWalker]

that bit about Scanlan's mom XD oh, you

[@CapnJigglypuff]

Ignore the alarm, Mike, follow your dreams.

[@steegen101]

Best of luck with the factions/politics videos. They're important topics for D&D no matter what any hater may say. You've always approached other tough topics with grace and good faith, so I think it'll be alright :)

[@flogos989]

Bro that slayers take alarm jump-scared me

[@ToaArcan]

I don't know how I'd handle the negotiation with the Clasp, I think it would heavily depend on which character I was playing. I have some that would take it in a heartbeat. Just immediately agree. The ones who already operate on the wrong side of the law, who have taken risky deals in the past, who have been part of shady organisations before. Others would refuse to even attend the negotiation, would never entertain the idea and would be pretty keen to put the Clasp on their own hit-list. Some would try to approach from a position of strength, and try to be intimidating, and others would be quicker to negotiate better terms and would try to come up with something better. I have one that would just be confused.

[@Rhynez]

That alarm sound really freaked me out haha :D

[@wanderingshade8383]

I had forgotten about this entire plotpoint! The Clasp meeting is so good and while I'm not surprised that it wasn't included in the Animated series, I think it could have been with some changes. The discussion between the players is why I'm sort of sad that my current dnd game has only 3 players. With more players you can get more opinions and more complexity in the arguments.

[@undeathghost5627]

I wouldn't count this moment out of the Animated Series quite yet. We're approaching the presipice of investigating Thordak's presence in the city in the show and they may have moved this conversation to later. They said very openly that they are "shifting around plot points to make more sense for an animated series" and have demonstrated it multiple times already. They haven't made any effort to go back into Emon in the show because it was clearly very dangerous to in the immediate aftermath. While I don't think this scene is *completely* necessary in the animated series it could still happen or at least be referenced. I do think it would be a good scene to include though because this scene really highlights Percy and Keyleths opposing views on leadership qualities... something both of their stories are centered around now.

[@wanderingshade8383]

@@undeathghost5627 That's true! I didn't think about that, but that's a very good point. There's no reason they can't recycle it for the next season.

[@nicoladamiani9731]

34:29 to be honest it depends on the character. I would have maybe intimidated them? Of course, bold and childish move but it makes Sheen know the party doesn't like him. A good way to say it is "If we beat Thordak, and when we come back Emon is still dying, if you let more people die than what it's necessary or inevitable...the deal is off and you'll have to answer to 7 dragon slayers. If the city dies, you go along with it."

[@MySqueezingArm]

Will there be more PF2 content? Love everything you do, just curious.

[@manueltorresart2345]

I remember watching this episode and feeling that everything was a waste of time, and perhaps as a viewer, a spectator, you might feel that way, but this isn't your average tv series, this is a role-playing game and in these interactions, although it didn't bear fruits, the interactions and points of view of the players is enought. The plot unfolds in unexpected ways and that is entertainment itself.

[@undeathghost5627]

As one of the original viewers when this first aired I personally found this episode just as enthralling as many of their other ones. It is as you said - unlike a television series - it doesn't have to be action and plot points the entire time. They looked towards an avenue and it didn't payoff. The fun and interesting take away from this episode was seeing the parties morals, beliefs, and actions bounce off of one another. This episode really highlights the differences between Keyleth and Percy while showcasing that they *both* have the most noble of intentions. As Mike said this episode also has one of the most emotionally powerful moments for Vex in the campaign. Seeing a side of Vax that we hadn't seen up until this point with the Clasp. Really showing Vax's moral compass is closer to Keyleths but also showcasing that he will bury that moral compass leagues beneath the dirt if it means protecting his sister. There is a lot of characterization in this episode and (while I know this isn't true for everyone) that makes this episode well worth the watch.

[@ladylad2763]

7:20 don't you dare I just made it that far in campaign two

[@lefterismplanas4977]

Before seeing the episode, I just wanna say, I hated how they basically went there, insulted and angered the clasp, and then they left. They asked for far too much and all amounted to nothing. I don't know if the deal was good or not... but they just went there, made things worse, and left

[@abrilvonbunny6205]

I feel like many players would consider it a win... me included JHAJHAJHA when you are at the table the motives get messy and you end up forgetting WHY are we doing this again??

[@Arcon1ous]

They kinda needed to go there to find out what the clasp had available to make a deal with, or to see if there were problems in the bottom of the city that would cause greater problems down the road, ie. maybe a large majority of them had been wiped out, and the sewers were being used to hatch Wyvern or other monster eggs, and they were using parts of them as barracks for reinforcements and soldiers. What ended up happening though was the only thing the Clasp really wanted from them was something they could barely do, and who knows if the fact that they aren't as well connected in Vasselheim as it was assumed they were could have been perceived as them trying to back out on the deal they had made, and caused problems once they got the city back under control. its really unfortunate that they did just go, make things worse, and then leave, but its not like they had a ton of choices in that matter.

[@lefterismplanas4977]

@@Arcon1ous Yeah. It sad, but I do agree with all of what you stated 😅

[@sarcasticfury5478]

I've always agreed with Percy. The deal was the smart thing to do

[@katiehusband1505]

I didnt notice this at the time, but Scanlan is the one who throws out The Slayers Take. I wonder how this scene plays out if Scanlan takes point over Percy? I suspect into doesnt become so much of a morality play, but more of an exchange of intel.

[@KC24987]

By Shen's words 23:22 & 28:00, it showed that despite being a thieve's guild, The Clasp had more honor and integrity than Vox Machina, who had broken contracts and have continued to take what they want from others (wizard who asked them to retrieve circlet controlling stone golem) or strong arm shopkeepers for discounts.

[@Keryusupercoologuy]

I don't know why but I could just not get through the CR segments for this episode

[@theunfamousone2818]

I still think VM should've pressured the severity of the situation, this is life or death. Help us and maybe survive, or be on your own and die

[@joshuabonesteel2303]

The clasp is set up in several cities. They could just leave and accept their losses. That's what sits so weird with VM's decision.

[@theunfamousone2818]

@@joshuabonesteel2303 but VM knew the dragons were attacking multiple cities

[@joshuabonesteel2303]

@@theunfamousone2818 were they all the cities that the Clasp are involved with? The Clasp could easily just sit back and wait for someone else to deal with this problem, or go somewhere the dragons haven't hit. Expecting them to stay and fight for nothing is nonsensical.

[@purpleniightfall8974]

Oh 100% would have designed myself then trick a third party into ratting out the clasp. Let the two go to war. Best case scenario party can swoop in red hood style and take control of the clasp after enough members are wiped out. Worst case. Well they were already a problem once negotiations failed

[@f.a.santiago1053]

Thank you for pronouncing WHY-verns and not WEE-verns. Music to my ears. lol

[@Josh-HC]

Great video, love your videos on Critical Role! I would have taken the deal, Shin mentioned tunnels and how useful would it have been to have underground infrastructure to travel under the city unseen. Perhaps even use it to bring your forces in once you've gathered them. To say nothing of The Clasp's ability to report useful information about what's happening in the city over time, troop movements, and new factions for Thordak. I agree that Percy undersold the usefulness of the deal and that they really didn't push to find out more information. And I believe Keyleth's obvious distaste for working with The Clasp was a major reason for that.

[@Locke0042]

I remember being incredibly frustrated with this episode when I watched it the first time. I believe everyone played well into their character intentions, and future campaigns show that they can play with more shady story beads. I supose I don't have anything constructive to say about it, the discussion just bugs me and I can't say exactly why...

[@danielmcgillis270]

Nobody bothered to ask Scanlen's mom's name.

[@emmathomas2832]

I never particularly liked the deal scene. I don't think it would have been right to make the deal necessarily but i do think that they went down there, made some unnecessary enemies and then left. It was like none of them had considered what kind of deal they would have been making.

[@lefterismplanas4977]

30:32 And yeah, I agree, they're both wrong Percy is wrong because it wasn't Kielith's Ego. It was Her moral compass. She didn't want to compromise, that's just who she is. It can appear like An ego, but it's not. She is just willing to keep searching until there's a solution with no compromise and refuse any that have some. Percy also is kind of a pessimist. He lost so much and got power only by sacrificing even more things that he cared about. He's the opposite to Kielith's "No compromises" And it shows here. (In hindsight I'm glad that they did not acept, but I'm still mad that they juat made some enemies) Percy was definitely going to make a compromise because that's Percy, he's a deal maker by his own words. And he knows that he's dark, but he's also willing to change, which is why he waited for conformation. He's not afraid to be himself exactly because he trusts his on friends to pull back the reins. Which is what happened. Even if it wasn't as civilised as he would like But, Kielith is wrong because she basically did not have an argument. She believes that... oh wait, does she: by saying that "she doesn't think herself better" mean that "She knows and respects how powerful those people are?" And doesn't want to give them some of her power, and make them stronger? Cause if she does meant that then she might be right, otherwise I don't get it

[@Dunybrook]

I never understood what they were trying to accomplish with their undiplomatic attitude. All they seemed to do was make an enemy out of the Clasp for no reason when they were supposed to be looking for allies.

[@chesra9515]

I think this is the episode where someone rolls a nat 1 on stealth and Laura goes, why even bother rolling anymore. After this Matt seemed to have changed the system so that one failure doesn't reck to whole party.

[@undeathghost5627]

I'll be honest I think they only thing that actually changed is that Matt made it more clear what group stealth rolling would be like mechanically. I personally believe he'd already been doing it that way and had simply not clarified it to his players. It is something I was guilty of as a long time for my players as well to be honest. It's an easy assumption to make as a player that one bad roll can screw you and just being transparent and letting them know that 1 failure isn't going to cause the whole group to be found (unless the situation calls for it) is healthy.

[@thunderflare59]

If they made the deal with the Clasp, they'd have learned of the missing scale on Thordac's chest. Completely original idea. Do not steal. 😂

[@zippomage]

I'd love to see a dial down on the specifics of why and how a criminal "guild" starts and operates. I just.....I don't get it. No comprende.

[@joshuabonesteel2303]

Another thing. Is it just me, or is the group being kind of jerks here? The Clasp has been fighting back against the dragons' forces without the luxury of a castle to fall back to. These are cutthroats and pickpockets vs. lizardmen and their own neighbors. They have probably lost friends and family by this point. Yet when they ask for one simple thing to secure a deal (while the group asks for several), they are rejected and insulted. I think it would have been completely acceptable for Matt to lay into his players for their approach, seeing as how the first thing they did upon reentering the city was try and loot it while killing some of the townsfolk.

[@friskybitzboi]

In hindsight, Percy letting residuum be produced and exported really changed the course of history more than him inventing guns The M9 special is happening right now, I hope Caleb is berating Percy about being responsible with magic

[@Lalilola1000]

Please please please give some kind of trigger warning before using alarm sounds please💀

[@CyrilOfTheWind]

I'm just getting into critical role, but I think Marisha is just out of her depth with the character that she made. So when she makes incongruous statements it's because of that. I don't think there's anything else to be read into. She kind of plays her as bipolar. Most scenes she is murder hoboing it up with the party, getting drunk, or just not caring about consequences. Then sometimes she uses her 'I'm a big girl voice' and tries to talk down to people like in this episode. I don't hate her for it, or think she's a bad player. I just don't think that at the time of this campaign she was a strong enough player to play this type of character.

[@undeathghost5627]

I respectfully disagree. I do recognize your point in that her actions can sometimes feel dissonant with the "character archetype" she seems to be aiming for. The thing is... she's not trying to play a character archetype. Shes trying to display a living, breathing person who has a strong moral compass. The thing is that Keyleth - like any other person - is going to be flawed and act foolishly at times. Being contradictory or hypocritical is completely human. Generally speaking she is usually acting the way she intends - with good morals and intentions in mind. I also think a lot of the "murder hoboing" you describe is table-talk Marisha in combat and not Keyleth in character. That's gonna happen at basically any table. It certainly happens at every table I've played at. There are certainly exceptions... but that can serve to humanize her even more. I can't wait for when Mike analyzes her interactions with Raishan... One of the most powerful scenes in Critical Role history... *because* it didn't feel like something Keyleth would do.

[@CyrilOfTheWind]

@undeathghost5627 in only on episode 67 atm lol. I can understand that point. To me it just seems like people kind of bend around what she does as if it's intentional and not just her playing certain ways when she remembers to.

[@TheBriguy1998]

@@CyrilOfTheWind I'm right with you on you're initial point. Marisha got a lot hate for how she played Keyleth and because some of that hate was very overblown, people veer WAY too far in the other direction to defend her and try to make it out as if everything Marisha did as Keyleth was (um, actually *pushes up glasses*) some sort of next-level roleplaying. Apparantly a character acting inconsistently makes them more human, so I guess Marisha is an alien because all of her choices in how she portrayed Keyleth were completely intentional and consistent, right? It's in no way possible that the actually flawed and inconsistent human being was Marisha Ray who just bit off a little more than she could chew from the roleplaying pie. /s Even if it was all intentional, it would still be a stupid move to try to play a character like that at a table full of 6 other friends who are very much trying to portray traditional fictional characters with consistent traits and flaws that don't fluctuate from scene to scene, and that have character arcs which progress linearly towards thematic conclusions. Real humans don't have character arcs, they don't have hero's journeys, climaxes and resolutions. The two ways of protraying characters are incompatible, so either way Marisha wasn't perfect in her protrayal of Keyleth.

[@padenal6069]

An promise of an introduction feels like such a small price. Especially when you can say that Vasellheim is ran by their oldest temples, of which their is just now being discovered a 5th. That this new temple could even want some help closing the political gap between itself and the others. They can introduce the clasp to its highest ranking Cleric. And then when the dragons are dead just say "hi, heres my buddy Pike. Shes a monster" and be done.

[@hem9483]

maybe cool it with the alarm sound effects