Neoden K1830 - A proper look!

[@andymouse]

Glad to hear your at 100% with no issues...cheers.

[@AmauryJacquot]

with these machines, the customer service is essential. good to know that neoden is a sensible company to do business with

[@paultargett5211]

So great to see you using a PNP that you can recommend in good conscience! When your biggest problem becomes how to keep feeding it boards that’s a good problem! 👍🏻

[@UnexpectedMaker]

It's totally not a problem yet - but hopefully one day!

[@christianthompson184]

I have been back and forth about this machine for months. Thank you for providing such a detailed and helpful demonstration.

[@helmuthschultes9243]

What a pleasure to have reliable assembly and be able to plan batch lots. Know when you are likely to complete manufacture to meet promised delivery.

[@UnexpectedMaker]

100% - knowing I can just switch it on, paste up 10-15 panels and let it do it's thing is amazing!

[@bjarkeistruppedersen8213]

The rattle sound your Prusa is making, try and detach the front panel from the fra e (the orange part, two screws in both sides) and see if that causes it to stop. Mine had this issue, for the time being I am just keeping it detached and standing in front of the machine 🙂

[@randycarter2001]

Isn't amazing what happens when you get ahold of someone that actually knows what they're doing.

[@fredflintstone1]

Well done Seon so glad you are happy, this time last year you were so annoyed with Charmhigh :-)

[@frankmcalinden3699]

Thanks for the update Seon ....good to see your pnp is working out !!!.....Allows you to put some time for new projects and more video,s ..keep em coming ..Slainte Frank

[@CraigHollabaugh]

This is fabulous. 5000 boards done and you have the time to shoot this video. Thanks UM

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Cheers Craig :)

[@chrisnurse7658]

So happy that you got to this point, and also that you found a supplier and partner that you can trust and that will back you. I'd say this will have a strong influence on my purchase plans.

[@jerril42]

Great demo of the machine. Nice to see something you have you'd recommend. Take care Seon.

[@iantcroft]

So glad to see a proper PNP and also your stress level reduce. Options to grow if extending the garage is an option! Good good onwards and upwards 👍🏻

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Extending the garage really means moving out - cost of extending would outlay any extra space I could gain :(

[@iantcroft]

@@UnexpectedMaker Decisions to be made as you grow. Exciting! Stay at home as long as you can and try making space even if it’s a less permanent structure outside, in garden etc. Invest in the extra equipment rather than expensive premises rents and all that goes them.

[@ukzoinks]

Great to see such a positive experience after all the drama of the old machine.

[@lmamakos]

Is the PNP process now accurate enough and reliable that you can squirt the boards right into the reflow oven without having to inspect boards? Seems like that's what they intend, and sounds like you might be there now. What a joy to have a tool that works well, and solves more problems than it creates! Congratulations!

[@UnexpectedMaker]

My process at the moment on an batch I make (of any board) is I run the first board, pull it off the conniver and give it a quick look by eye - if there are no suspicious issues, it goes into the oven and then the rest of the batch are unattended. If anything does look suspicious it goes under the microscope and I fix the placement issue, then the rest go straight into the oven with no inspection. In the last 6 or 7 runs I've done, I've only had to make a fix once :) It's working great!

[@pileofstuff]

Impressed that you were able to get up to speed on the new machine so quickly and get that 5000 piece order out the door! A happy ending to the PnP saga!

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Cheers mate :) he software is pretty intuitive which really helped, and being able to ask EMLogic and Neoden questions and get near real time answers also really helped.

[@TalpaDK]

Congratulations on the "new" PnP that actually does both pick and place (and only the requested components and only in requested destinations)

[@miroslavradev756]

The thing with the belt systems is not that they are not precise, but you need to be aware that the belts will need to be checked periodical to make sure they are at the right tension and also probably replaced at one point. As long as the operator is aware of these maintenance procedures and stick in to regular servicing (similar to a car service) it should be all good.

[@paulgallagher2937]

There is pros and cons to belts. As for ultimate accuracy, the ultimate accuracy is limited by the stepper motor resolution anyway. If you are using fidicials on the PCB, short range position accuracy is a moot point, so belt or screw will be same. Screws will heat up over time and cause position errors, whereas belts do not (The expansion is symmetrical). Belts are much quieter. The machine can ultimately be faster with belts due to lower weight mechanical structure. Many of the high end factory machines, even Siplace, use belts. So I don't think the belt is the issue. On cheap machines its usually the overall implementation of the belt that causes issues. In order to get extreme accuracy with a ball screw, such as on CNC machines, you can't do it with the ball screw alone. You need to also have glass scales, laser measurement, temperature sensors with length comp, etc. I worked on old CNC machines with ball screws, when they just had rotary encoders. The accuracy drifted a lot as the machine warmed up. We would need to run the machines for an hour without components, just to stabilize.

[@theonlymudgel]

Wow Seon! Considering where you were just a few {probably long) months ago with CH********* Its hard to believe the turn around. You must be more exited than is possible to show. I still cant believe you're running such an advanced machine in your garage. All the best for your endeavours. Mike V.

[@permalmstedt8870]

I think your willingness to share your learning process, your goals, and your ideas is totally brilliant and it gives me not only new knowledge, but also a feeling that anything is possible when you have a good idea! I hope you will sell a sh*tload of your cards all over the world, and never stop sharing your progress. :-) Thanx!

[@IanScottJohnston]

This is the video I didn't want to see just prior to starting another production board manual assembly run of my own........If I was your neighbour I'd be knocking on your door with a bunch of reels in one hand and bare pcb's in another.........LOL!

[@UnexpectedMaker]

If you we're my neighbour, I'd GLADLY run your boards for you mate!

[@christianvergara6480]

Thank you very much for this video!!! I have two ND4 around five years ago and there are increible machines. I'm considering add a new PP, K1830, ND9 or ND10.

[@kennethfribert6074]

Looks great that new machine, congrats!

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Thanks :)

[@goldfingerdash]

Good for you, I'm glad the machine can run at 100%. I bought my NeoDen4 and IN6 last summer. I wish the software was more like yours. It has an older interface. I also found some bugs and reported them. The NeoDen4 is an older machine so I'm not sure how vested NeoDen is in updating the software for anything other than bugs. It has worked well for my needs.

[@UnexpectedMaker]

I know Neoden are actively selling and supporting the N4 - but I doubt that would include plans to overhaul the software, especially after this long.

[@Tupeutla]

neoden4 have tubular guides . neoden8 have linear rails . I dont know if it's change something , depend quality of parts

[@KitarpLive]

I was waiting on this video ! Thanks Seon !

[@richardperritt]

Is it wrong that I find the workings of this machine sexy? Ya I'm a big geek. 🤓 Old too. 😁 It's so nice to see one that works - properly! 👍

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Not wrong at all :)

[@djsbriscoe]

Could you do a quick tutorial using this machine with a simple PCB made with KiCad please? We have just bought one of these Neoden K1830's at work and a quick example would be great. Thanks.

[@Panha-lim]

Thanks for your sharing, SO I got some question to ask you about machine when start Mounting Feeder not feed to machine pick, so what going on with it? And I ready check on fuse it is ok How we should do more ?

[@mattodin8224]

Hello, can you also do a review/update on your Neoden IN6 oven? It seems you ran into issues when you got it, but since i see in in this video, I assume everything worked out?

[@PequignotMichel]

Seems to be a good p&p machine ! Could this machine be connected to a network ? How do you prepair the work ? csv or xls import or do you need to program everything using the machine screen ? What is the reliability of the K1830 and the Federer one year later ? Have you replaced some parts (belts, nozzles or ....) ? Have you counted the numbers of components placed and the operting time of your K1830 ? Regards, Michel

[@paulgallagher2937]

Couple questions for you. 1) Can you give us an idea of the price for this machine? I saw on Alibaba, something like 15k usd. 2) What is the real world mounting speed? With a mix of 90% 0402/0603 and a few ICs. Thanks.

[@dcallan812]

The only buzzing I hear is my tinnitus., What an improvement.

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Hahaha!

[@Tupeutla]

the last 3 weeks I spent about one hour per evening with neoden reps (thanks to Joyce) keep asking and asking details . they are very reactive , send me precise answers , and a lot of pictures ( and user manuals ) they know what they are talking about . they gave me advises ( for example solder past centrifuge machine ) . support is number one and I did not buy the machine yet ! about compressor they recommend one unit + oil-water filter ( about 700 USD ) you did not take this option ? maybe the noise ( no data about that will ask ) I saw in the video the board got stuck at the entrance of the conveyor , is it about a wrong setup or bad level of the line ? belt system is lower than ball screws , but ball screws are a way more expensive and very sensible of dust or particles on them you can ruin them ( like CNC machines ). just the maintenance of belt system ... need some replacement parts , will ask about that . thank you for this video , I guess lot of people was waiting it !

[@UnexpectedMaker]

The conveyer wasn't on when the board exited the PnP, so it was sitting in a weird position when I tuned it on... you can see that *just* before I touched it, it started moving by itself. If everything was on, it would have timed the hand over properly.

[@Tupeutla]

@@UnexpectedMaker right ! got it . in twitter , seems the thinner boards can be an issue, right ? ( not 1.6mm )

[@AlejandroGomez-lq3lf]

Hi. Very good video. I am from Argentina I have a neoden4 and IN6. By the end of 2024 i would like to Buy a K1830. I saw that now You have a juki, do You have any problem with 1830? Thanks

[@CHSElectronics]

I'm interested in Neoden machines thanks to your videos. Are you still using this machine? Is it cheaper than the 9 or 10?

[@epremeaux]

Could you remind us what your monthly throughput looks like? And is that running the machine full time every day? I'm curious as to how many "units" it can do a day. Obviously this is highly variable depending on board complexity. But a loose estimate is enough.

[@UnexpectedMaker]

I don't count production that way, nor do I ever do full days of PCBs assembly... not even half days ;) I do them in batches of usually between 150 and 250 boards (not panels). PCB assembly is only about 40% of the entire production of a board. Inspection, separation, testing, cleaning, packaging.... they all take much longer than assembly :)

[@jlegen]

Thanks for this ´walk through´ - really looks like a great machine. And also the software makes a good impression (ui-wise at least), obviously sometimes that‘s a weak point for stuff from China (with sometimes otherwise decent hardware)...

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Yeah, software on the Chinese machines is always an afterthought, especially usability and quality of life stuff. Neoden don't suffer from that ;)

[@Ian-yh3mi]

Hi have one of thies pick and place on order Can you tell us the hight of the convayer from the floor to the top of the convayer as no-one at the distributer knows the hight.

[@haimik0]

How did the component tray work out? Can you provide the STL for it?

[@akhurash]

Awesome results.

[@henrikblom5676]

What do you think of the newer Neoden10?

[@modulo-engineering]

hi, thx for this awesome Video. we plan to buy a K1830... but its working well with 0402 parts? whats the failure rate ? for us is speed second.. we need precision.. thx for any Feedback. best Regards from Swiss..

[@chrisfootner3499]

Hoping to get ours soon! was in the same boat as you for the dropped model. Ended up getting a Neoden 4 as a loan. Question, do you assign the components on the feeders per job or as a machine? On our 4 i have to input all the component settings per job even though i leave the reels on, pain in the ...! Great video, cant wait to get ours now!

[@Factory400]

It looks like it may be time for me to replace my Quad 4000C, which is very good hardware but the software is deadly. Looking at the costs for this one.

[@UnexpectedMaker]

The Quads are great machines, but showing their age in terms of speed. Is yours single nozzle?

[@Factory400]

@@UnexpectedMaker Yes - single nozzle 3600CPH rated. Windows software update at least, but still really rough.

[@RusokuLab]

Is it possible to use this machine for 0201 components ?

[@antoniobastida4598]

Hi! Great video! What kind of air pump needs this machine?

[@Sjaak_PD1SRM]

great machine, great setup

[@AdamRusin]

Is there possibility to place 0402 parts on 8mm tape with 2mm pitch with pneumatic feeder?

[@EKMMeteringInc]

Thanks for an excellent video Seon! I'm wondering if you have any experience/advice on doing 2-sided boards with either the NeoDen 8 or the K1830.

[@ulwur]

So that's a machine for all the PNP components, but what about the NPN and MOSFETs? 😋

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Every component :)

[@TheRainHarvester]

A NPN machine is needed for those. Some have luck reversing the polarity of the neutron flow of a PNP machine to do NPN components.

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Nah, there's an "INVERT" button in the setup screen that converts from PNP to NPN :)

[@otherside2k3]

Hi mate, have you had any experience on the Neoden 4? was wondering how N8 compares to N4, I own an N4 and i can't say i've had a great time with it, especially the software and placement accuracy. I see the concept of the software hasn't changed much, many common things...

[@miniprousa]

Awesome work! Were did you buy those reel holders that are in your shelf? Did you 3d print those?

[@SB-nt9fp]

>US$30K for that proto line? I'm guessing you are selling more product than I thought. What is the finally tally on cost for everything?

[@groovejet33]

lovely bit of kit. bet its nice when it just simply works as it should, after all your earlier troubles? When stuff works we take it for granted, when it doesnt? Arghhhhhhhh, the stress...lol

[@mirki08]

When you compare it with the S1, then how you would describe the main differences?

[@UnexpectedMaker]

I never got to run my S1 for production, just for testing/trouble-shooting, but this is considerably faster - and of course, 8 heads over 4 is WAY more versatile considering the S1 never got its auto nozzle changer. This is also really heavy and solid. Not as solid as a 1000KG machine, but better balanced for sure. The S1 UI/touch screen was fancier, but also slower to work in.

[@mirki08]

@@UnexpectedMaker There aren't this 3d sensors in use anymore, right?

[@UnexpectedMaker]

That's right! I also thought that was a step backwards before I purchased, but wow, this camera alignment system is pretty awesome!

[@maesitos]

Seems big. Can it be taken through a regular ~70cm wide door ?

[@UnexpectedMaker]

No. As you say... it's big :)

[@wouladjecabrelwen1006]

Please how much doest it cost and from where to buy it Sir?

[@kindmartin]

Hi Seon, I wondering if is possible to ask to produce a slight modified tinypico nano integrated with a quectel module? If so, can we talk / email / pm to evaluate time and cost for a initial volume?

[@cinobro6393]

Looks like its about time for an office upgrade.

[@UnexpectedMaker]

I *just* renovated the garage to fit this in!

[@yns222]

How is the current status on these machines? Still reliable? Service availability? Still satisfied?

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Wasn't reliable, Service/support was poor. I got rid of it and bought a real PnP :)

[@karthikeyan.r911]

will this machine mount tray components..?

[@tiarnanokelly1747]

Do you know what motor controllers they are using?

[@Cybernetic_Systems]

Amazing! Im glad it worked out so well mate! :-)

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Cheers mate! I hope you and the family are all well :)

[@Cybernetic_Systems]

@@UnexpectedMaker we are well mate, hopefully your family is too?

[@thanhcongngo6492]

Hi, thank you for your video. I wondering about the difference between pneumatic and electronic feeder. Can we pick 0402 accurately with pneumatic feeder?

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Picking 0402 reliably from pneumatic is very difficult. The feeder moves around quite a bit due to the movement cause by the pneumatics. The parts can jostle around in the pickets or even jump out. Electric is the way to go if you want to use 0402 components.

[@scottspitlerII]

Hey because of this video I am about to buy this machine. Is it still your genuine opinion that this machine is the machine to buy and set up? Also do you have any information on their PLC interface? I am interested in loading jobs and starting tasks without anyone there to watch the machine

[@JohnnyApples33d]

Awesome video, I am curious how much air it uses though? What is your compressor setup?

[@neodensmtmachinecathy8259]

Hi Jon, The air flow required for NeoDenK1830 is 84CFM to 100CFM, which is ~2.24m3/min to 2.8m3/min. Cathy from NeoDen Tech

[@faridfarrokhnia1890]

hello friend, is there any tutorial for the software available online so I can take a look? I tried to google it no luck so far and I would be very appreciated if you could help me.

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Ask Neoden?

[@saeidjavadi9704]

Hello . We have one k1830. And the nozzels calibration suddenly failed.!!could you please help us?

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Maybe contact Neoden? I'm not Neoden support :)

[@saeidjavadi9704]

@@UnexpectedMaker Ok! Just want help! Thanks

[@flitch321]

Hi, Openpnp entusiast here. Would you mind taking few close-up pictures of feeders for me?

[@misteragony]

I'm not familiar with PNP machines, but seeing this makes your previous machine (that now sits on your driveway) look like a cheap toy. The build quality on this thing looks amazing. Nice engineering me thinks...

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Yeah, it's really well made, cheers!

[@sjwpcbdesign]

I see that you have the IN6 reflow oven. In one of your video's you said "Nope". How is this oven performing and what is your thoughts on it. I have been looking at getting one myself, but am extremely cautious because I can't seem to find any unbiased reviews.

[@UnexpectedMaker]

When I got my initial IN6 is was an early model and I had some issues with the functionally, but Neoden immediately replaced my controller board and it's been purring ever since! I'm using it for low temp and high temp (SAC305) reflow and it's reliable. Only issue (and it's not IN6 specific) is that a 6 zone (3 up and 3 down) conveyer oven gets zone creep due to the temp differences each zone needs to be set to, so it takes a bit of tuning to get the profiles right. The tuning system on the IN6 is far superior to other cheaper ovens I've looked into. Neoden does have an IN12 coming out that allows for better zone tuning as you have less temp differences between each zone and therefor less creep, and because it's twice as long, the boards move through twice as fast, which is better for boards that are really quick to assemble. Unfortunately I don't have room for the IN12 on my line, but I'm very happy with he IN6.

[@sjwpcbdesign]

@@UnexpectedMaker Thanks a lot for the information on the IN6. I was also looking at the IN12, but I am just a hobbyist so I am not sure I want to poor that much into an oven I might use two or three times month. Do you have a better opinion about the Neoden S1 now? I was told that when you got it, it was in the early stages. What about feeders? This has been the biggest issue for me. Finding affordable reliable feeders. I have a PnP but the feeders that came with it are complete mechanical crap. Does the S1 and Neoden 8 use the same type of feeder? I am considering the Neoden S1 or try and get feeders that will work with my current Madell D2006.

[@UnexpectedMaker]

@@sjwpcbdesign Neoden don't make the S1 anymore. The stock Neoden USA have is old stock. What was the S1 is now owned by a different company. The S1 and N8 are 1000% incompatible. No sharing of anything... not even working files. If you are looking for a similar sized machine as the S1, Neoden are releasing a Q1 sometime this year or you can contact the company that took over the S1 which is now named something else and is not made/sold or supported by Neoden.

[@vmoutsop]

Maybe Nvidia and AMD can outsource some assembly to you so we can get some GPU inventory out into the marketplace

[@daniesharpe1596]

Very nice!

[@vishnutu1515]

Im working as a service engineer for neoden machine, im looking for a job abroad

[@groovejet33]

Wow! Never seen you without Gegs on? lol.. Your very handsome and younger looking...ha ha ha...Who knew...lol

[@MkmeOrg]

Nice!

[@Factory400]

I converted my PnP from venturi vacuum to using a Gast 1/4hp vac pump - WAAAY less noise and power.

[@UnexpectedMaker]

Noise isn't a problem for me. The machine is 6-7x quieter than my CHMT was and it's performing perfectly, so I'm not planning on hacking it any time soon!

[@MAYERMAKES]

if I ever buy a pnp...It may be a neoden....

[@ratmadness4858]

Dig It All

[@jonathanrodriguez8219]

Unbelievable!

[@hackur]

How long do you estimate it would take to make the $25k back at the current rate of production?

[@UnexpectedMaker]

No idea, as I don't cost/track my financials that way. I also don't buy capital equipment based on time to break even or X many boards/orders to cover the expense. I actually had a long chat about how I run my financials on a stream a few weeks back.

[@jessevanderzouw619]

@@UnexpectedMaker Which stream was that?

[@paulrautenbach]

@@jessevanderzouw619 It's here kzbin.info/www/bejne/q4DTnIqErrppg7s.

[@hackur]

@@paulrautenbach I understand doing something like this with a 3d printer. But I don't have $50k laying around to not keep track of. It seems a lot more risky than you make it sound. Hopefully these ancillary profit centers (youtube) help keep things both exciting and less of a cash drain.

[@paulrautenbach]

@@hackur I liked Seon's approach when I heard it. I'm retired now but when I was working for a software company there was an awful lot of bean counting trying to track the cost of everything. I was never convinced it was worth the effort and overhead. Just watching what happens to the float I think can work just as well in practice. With his experience, Seon can rely on his gut to know what he can afford. I don't think he needs to prove it to himself by counting everything.

[@GunniBusch1]

A Touchscreen would be cool

[@matthewlewis5631]

Something tells me you don’t want to hand place/solder all those boards 🤣

[@UnexpectedMaker]

I love hand assembling PCBs... but that not quantity! Pick and Place machines were designed for a reason! Haha

[@zakariazaki7513]

I like this video keep going 🤠 greeting from Morocco*

[@JoshuaSeward]

Cool

[@TheTinkerDad]

The single thumbs down on this video was probably given by a Charmhigh employee :) Jokes aside, what's next? With this pace you'll soon will have bigger problems like getting a place for your growing little factory!

[@UnexpectedMaker]

I REALLY don't want to move to of here into a small warehouse, but space is really working against me :(

[@johnmcnamara3719]

Hi Unexpected Maker, Greetings from Melbourne. I would like to ask a slightly off topic question. I am working on an open source DIY project that needs a hi res low cost camera. Your video shows excellent micro images of components. Any details regarding sourcing the cameras would be appreciated. a link to the project follows. as you can see many people around the world are contributing. www.mycncuk.com/threads/12966-DIY-Laser-levelling-using-webcam-and-laser-level/page11

[@vehasmaa]

That's not P&P-machine, this is P&P-machine...

[@Sh4dowHunter42]

You're too scared to run your own machine, show it!