Neve 51 vs. Studiomaster 16 into 4 part 1 - Clash of the 80s IC Consoles

[@markussaarinen5043]

Nice to see someone talking about the early Studiomasters. Can’t wait to hear the StudioMaster16into4 mix!

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

Later this week!!

[@anthonyellis5517]

Hi great video, I’ve the 16 4 2 same as this without the vu meters the eqs on them are amazing ❤️

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

@@anthonyellis5517 our demo recording worked so well, more on this shortly

[@anthonyellis5517]

@@jamiedurrantmusicianI look forward to it ❤ I stumbled on your channel wile looking at a chilton 10 came up for sale it was selling for pennies but then went on eBay and sold well out my price range 😢 but I’ve had a studio master 16 4 2 about 15 years ago it was a great desk sadly it was stolen I’ve since bought another but needs some work my bus 1-2 and master channels don’t work I’ve checked the faders 🎚️ and they are fine but if anyone could point me in the right direction of what the problem could be I’d appreciate any advice thank you, and I love your videos.

[@jimrogers7425]

Neve moved into IC circuit topology after Rupert sold the company. The ICs used in those consoles had questionable sonic qualities, however, the use of ICs (along with the elimination of transformers) reduced manufacturing costs by quite a lot. This, along with each channel strip being fully on one main circuit board also reduced labor costs. Some console manufacturers (i.e. MCI in the US) continued to use transformers for their isolation qualities, but soon abandoned them because of several factors, mainly cost and audio fidelity). Once the 5534/5532 ICs came into being, console fidelity improved tremendously. Then it was merely the poor implementation of interstate coupling capacitors that continued to degrade the performance of cheaper consoles. The SSL 9000J is a servo coupled console… no interstate coupling capacitors… that sounds incredible in part, because the smearing phase distortion of those capacitors was eliminated. The NEVE 8108 and 8128 had a sound of their own, but were not really hi fidelity in their sonic signature. However, some cheaper consoles of that same era had a very lovable sonic footprint… Soundcraft being one of several.

[@caminglis53]

2 famous Neve consoles that are an example of a vintage Neve classic and modern Neve classic are the 8078 ic version, and the Neve 88r also an ic based console In reality tho and I’m sure everyone that’s had a Neve and looked into all of it knows well, repairs happen all the time on the vintage non ic modules, heat and other issues were far more common in terms of repairs, especially because of the Class A topology current requirements. Rupert would gage the truth of pre-amp circuit via holding his hand over the unit for a few minutes, and could tell if it was class a, as he said, tho half joking he had a point. I’ve had an IC Neve from 1978 for 15 years and the channels over their 40 year life have only been recapped, no other repairs, that absolutely wouldn’t be the case if it was the older transistors modules.

[@tobiverseofficial]

That is one cool comment over here! All the best, Tobi

[@drenolynbeats]

I got a 16-8-2 5 series the EQ’s are incredible!

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

@@drenolynbeats amazing

[@Rhuggins]

Awesome channel. Subscribed

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

Oh, thank you for such a positive vibe, I needed that lol. Nice to have you on board! Jamie

[@ramjac]

I have a couple of Studio Master desks and an RSD predecessor and a few friends introduced me to them with their lovely units a few years ago, the earlier the generation, the better. They're sleepers and keepers.

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

@@ramjac I’ve long wanted to get my hands on one, I was amazed when I found this

[@Beatledave7]

Enjoy your videos Jamie. Do you use that reel to reel tape machine?

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

@@Beatledave7 Hi Dave! I’ve not long had that reel, it’s a full track mono record model - MX5050 BiiF - I’ve only just had it serviced - the transport was almost locked up and pots and switches were noisy, running well now, I’m waiting on a replacement heads cover splicing plate. My plan was using it for tape saturation effects and tape delay… but something amazing happened - I met a local guy with 2 stereo MX5050s, one needing an erase head and a service, the other in as new condition - I’m buying both from him… so I’ll sell for a low price this full track mono, and won’t be using it much other than some test bounces. There stereo machine will get a work out once I get some new formula tape from the tech / retailer in Brisbane.

[@Beatledave7]

@@jamiedurrantmusician What a great score Jamie. Good luck with it.

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

@@Beatledave7 cheers, a work in progress

[@hakangurdol]

I worked on Studio Master 32 channel, they were old but good consol, after studio deside to change it with Mackie 32+16. Studio was on the Tascam MTR 24 1 inc multitrack recorder. The behinde consol has much more depth. Thank you.

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

Sounds great - glad you like the video

[@aymra3550]

I have the 12-2c and i love it

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

Share a pic!!

[@olivergretz]

The used 741 opamps in the Studiomaster might have lower dissipative heat, however they have higher distortion, noise, and lower slew rate than the NE5532. But I'm glad that the sound is cool!

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

@@olivergretz yes all correct! It’s not noise free and it’s darker sounding due to those 741s which is a good sound for certain music productions.

[@MrStubat]

They used them because they were cheap lowend consoles

[@3str]

Looking forward to the full band recording (says the Eaton Bray 12-into-2 owner).

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

Nice one ... getting there, synth all complete now!

[@DarthPreamp]

wonderful!

[@PeterJensen7]

Martin Hannett producer of Joy Division among others had one of these in his home studio, and they very much are of that era. He modded his EQ somehow, his board came up for sale including his personal notes on the mods, but the seller demanded I buy the whole lot to find out what he did. I'm guessing he narrowed the Q by upping the resistors in a couple spots, but he may also have gone from 741's to TL071's as Studiomaster themselves did around 1981. The 071s are a bit cleaner and faster which in the tape era was a good idea but nowadays probably not a good idea. The Jim Williams contingent will laugh at these old opamps but they don't know what we are trying to do with music so ignore them. 5534s are the SSL opamp and so very clean and fast, recapping isn't hard as much as it is tedious and the bigger issue is workflow and paying for HVAC to make the control room livable with a big old board burning a lot of heat. My 1979 Studiomaster 12 into 2 is of this 741 era. I should note for the crowd that all Studiomasters and Recording Studio Design from the 70's and 80's had a "thin script logo" and Slipperman slipped up years ago suggesting the logo was an indicator of quality, better is the presence of big VU meters to know you got an original rather than a later one built by Rolls. My 1979 did need some recapping, had already been clumsily modded for direct outs and was in poor enough shape I decided to not view it as a museum piece but instead to mod the daylights out of it. I put in optional transformers galore, polarity switches, separate switchable line ins on DB25s, TRS switched direct outs and insert points, pulled the EQ off the master and made a couple more stereo pairs of line inputs...not to mention a completely new power supply. And I socketed the summing opamps so I can use LM6172 or something else the fast opamp people would approve of. There is plenty of room inside these, and they are built to be extended, so a modder's delight if you know your way about. The worst thing in them for modding and maintenance are the bus bars linking all the cards together shown in your video, I replaced those with a eurorack ribbon which also allowed me to have stereo FX sends on alternating channels. Stock and in good shape these are certainly worthy boards, modded well they can be something truly special, although still looking up at a PM1000 or a Neve of course.

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

Hi Peter, thank you for the detail - such an amazing comment. And I love New Order !! So where are you based? That sounds like a serious mod but cool. Huge effort. And yes them bus bars are ridiculous - what were they thinking? FFS

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

cost saving can ONLY be the answer!

[@PeterJensen7]

​@@jamiedurrantmusician I am stateside...The bus bars do provide some structural stability to the cards, which can protect the pots from failing on these primitive PCBs with their weak traces. The pots can and will fail anyway, but worse, the bars will fail, and in researching what people had done to these some didn't realize the bars had failed, or worse, that solder drooled down from them onto other traces, and so they found that star grounding the setup helped, but it almost certainly was just the bus bars weren't in good contact across the entire assembly and they didn't realize that. If you do have to do maintenance these things are the primary challenge, you will be best served perhaps clamping the board upright as you work...really a design disaster, and ribbon cables and molex connectors already existed at that time. Tedious to do a retrofit but certainly worth it overall. As were the rest of the mods, I'm just having fun with electronics and music more than making wise investments in time and money!

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

@@PeterJensen7 I hear ya! Bus bars in this desk and pots all perfect thankfully

[@robertopistolesi2735]

Hi! I hear a quite high noise floor from my headphones when you are plugged in the studio masters, more so when you're boosting with the EQ. Is it going to be a problem when many signals are running through the console?

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

@@robertopistolesi2735 yes I didn’t mention noise - certainly not a clean class A desk

[@aymra3550]

@@robertopistolesi2735 I have zero noise on mine, but I use direct outs only

[@stevedoesnt]

Your eq pots don’t crackle. I don’t understand how this is possible.

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

@@stevedoesnt well they have been cleaned internally with Deoxit

[@toonertik]

500 watts from the Neve.. now we know why they got that "warm" sound reputation!

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

@@toonertik ha ha

[@niallmacdonald2710]

My first desk, not a rackmount mixer, in the mid 80's, was a Studiomaster 16-4, same as this one. In no way, shape or form could it be compared to a Neve. Pretty sure my friend I gave it to still has it stashed in his loft, because he's a packrat like that.

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

@@niallmacdonald2710 ha! As I said in this video - it’s NOT a Neve, but my comparison is about heat generated by ICs and which one cooks the capacitors

[@MrStubat]

Please….these were a very ordinary desk in the day, complete with cheap short throw faders. The Soundcraft 200b ate them in every possible way and you can’t give them away now. “Analogue” is being bit overplayed on very ordinary 40 year old consoles.

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

@@MrStubat I appreciate your view, and there are points I agree with, however based on the brilliant record tone, which will be highlighted in my next video I strongly believe this Studiomaster model should not be disregarded! I’ve heard many others stating that later models were terrible. While this is not a Neve, far from it, it’s also far from being rubbish. We achieved killer 80s drum sounds with this desk, and the tones really impressed us! Forget faders, forget noise floor and all the tech talk - it can be a wonderful production tool. It worked for New Order in the 80s too!

[@MrStubat]

@@jamiedurrantmusician yeh I get it,but I used a lot of these type of desks back in the day, and the 200b and 400-800b even more were just so far in front of the pack in every way and they’re basically doorstops now. Some of those other cheap desks like the MM evenhad unbalanced inputs and the Soundtraks preamp was straight into the inputs of a 5534. We had our own Aussie made Jands JM5 and JM6. I can’t get nostalgic about any of them TBH, the Soundcraft really tried to be a high standard of quality, and easy maintainence with its modular approach and the last one of those I owned I couldn’t get $100 for. They’re not Neves, they’re not studio quality preamps or eq.

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

@@MrStubat I hear you but honestly I recorded and produced several tracks at Sing Sing in the late 80s on a sound craft console and I found the preamps and EQ thin and hard… I just hated the sound. I know the 5534s are more Hifi and faster as others have commented and were also used in SSLs but I also dislike SSLs for tracking. I’m just chasing a different sound.

[@jamiedurrantmusician]

@@MrStubat tell me pls, with the Soundcraft consoles, what sort of work were you doing? We’re you a live engineer? I think reliability and functions in certain situations matter a great deal.

[@lucasdrake946]

@jamiedurrantmusician keep up with these console videos , all the dudes that have invested so heavily in top notch h gear seem to have a real problem finding value in different pallets, so don’t pay any mind to all that. You’re doing the lords work man!