NEVER hit the wall again

[@liamroche1473]

Would be great to have experiments that explicitly detect the shift in metabolism caused by such sessions.

[@tonykonvalin9959]

Glad to see you talking about burning fat - truth is if you work this side of things to be more efficient you can actually move the needle up so you can run faster on fat. Jeff Browning and some other Ultra guys do this. I have done it regularly and even ride hundred milers, I use riding as a tool for my running, with basically no fueling and still average 18-19 mph with no bonk. Kilian in a recent video talks about how he trains basically with no fuel but races using carbs. Not only does using fat save the carbs for when you need them as you move the cross over point up you save even more and need less carbs. The less carbs in training also reduces oxidative stress and thus faster recovery due to less damage. Again, when racing I use carbs just less than I used to and have been running for 48+ years and riding bikes for 42+ and wish I had done this back then as at 63 my endurance due to using fat as fuel is much better and relatively my speed while less - no more 15 minute 5Ks for me - I still can still go sub 20 and looking for sub 19 and go up to 50K at 4:30. One last thing as I think using a number of tools adjusting ones diet can help with using fat as fuel not only while running for every day life - not talking KETO, even though use it as a tool - by watching the carbs I eat and being more selective.

[@andrewsnow5007]

Glycogen depletion runs are very useful, and they can be used effectively for routine daily runs (you're not really glycogen depleted for those though) and for strategically placed long runs. When training for power, or muscular endurance, often times you want to be fully fueled up. So two strategies there...train the metabolic systems...and train the muscular systems. I don't subscribe to a low carb approach. As a strategy in some long training bouts, it's useful to promote fat utilization, but carbs are essential for basically every bodily function. We need glucose to fuel our muscles and if we don't have it in our diet the problem is that, well, calories need to come from somewhere, so if not from carbs, then they come from fat. There aren't really many foods where the majority of their calories are from protein, so if carbs are low, by definition fat has to be high, and high fat in the diet is detrimental to insulin sensitivity, and a host of health issues. I'm glad that you've been able to find the best of both worlds Tony! Nice job! The workouts I describe here are pretty extreme and should be used by advanced marathoners. After all, if you're able to run and "easy" 30 miles, and follow it up with some intervals, you're probably an advanced runner and can implement this.

[@tonykonvalin9959]

@@andrewsnow5007 - Just to be clear on a few things. I would not really call them "glycogen depletion runs" as in truth I am saving the glycogen as I burn fat. Also, I do use carbs but strategically when needed. Since my cross over point seems to be fairly high there is no need to burn carbs early as I can use them later. For workouts I use them rarely unless it might be a hard interval session. Also, with regards to "high fat" in a diet if you are low carb is not quite so. For one when I say I am low carb due to my training I still probably take in from 100 - as high as 250 grams of carbs a day. This is low for a regular carb person but high for many in the low carb camp. I do take a month every so often ad go very low just to clean things up. AS far as high fat I guess with todays miss-guided "fat is bad" view I am high but I tend to just not avoid "good" fats but avoid the bad ones and avoid seed oils as they are often worse. The goal of fat burning is to use endogenous fat and not exogenous fat as we have a huge fuel tank, even for a skinny person, of on board fat that is available for use. We just need to train to use it when we can and then use the carbs, which are very limited, when really needed. Due to diets that have been switched too high carb for so long many burn carbs for the smallest effort when they would be better served using fat as fuel and use the carbs for those hard - fight or flight - efforts. I will admit that how I and others I know work the low carb approach is not as many expect as this is not Keto, but use Keto as a tool, but seeking to the use the correct fuel for the appropriate effort. Thus easier - do not like to say slow as one can work to get the cross over point quite high, efforts use fat and harder ones carbs. Much more info here on how we do Optimized Fat Metabolism (OFM) - ofm.io/ - which is, again not the same as may in the "low carb" camp.

[@trevorlangridge]

Does this theory apply to a 72 year old. The marathon I did last November had several 20 plus runs prior to the race but come race day my legs were shot at 10 miles which I put down to burning out in my training and not enough recovery. Therefore this type of theory sounds good but running long easy miles at between 12 and 13 mph means being out for a very long time 4-5 hours which leads to problems recovering very tired old legs to run again during the week. Love to hear your thoughts as another KZbinr has stated that 3 hours should be the longest time on legs as no benefit is gained only risk of burn out and this theory was after he contacted several other KZbinr coaches for their theory and they supported this idea. Be good to hear your thoughts Trevor

[@tonykonvalin9959]

@@trevorlangridge As far as fat adaption I am 64 and it works great. It does take time to move up the level at which you burn fat but well worth it as recovery is great due to less oxidative damage since you burn less sugar. With running I tend to do no more than 3 hours but will have a longer run here and there but is more about time on feet than speed. Did 2 back to back trail runs a week ago (18 miles with 5250 vert on PCT - next day 12 miles with 2700 vert on PCT) and legs were sore but from downhills. So three hours is a good place to be but longer if done correctly, and for most not too often, is not bad. I ride a lot as well so tend to do my longer stuff on a bike as for sure easier on legs, and helps with my ankle that has issues from a physiological issue, a but still get endurance as 6 hours is 6 hours. Again one of the best things about Optimized Fat Metabolism (OFM) is that since less damage is done recovery is great. By the way OFM does not mean no carbs but they are used strategically so you use a lit less and when you will need them. I will add I have been running for 50 years and riding for 42 years so have done the carb-centric thing but find relying on endogenous fat is so much better and as you get older it seems to help even more. AS we age our metabolism slows so using fat for fuel helps with improving your metabolic health.

[@trevorlangridge]

@@tonykonvalin9959 Thank you Tony for your quick and comprehensive reply. Much appreciated.

[@eugenehabobo3143]

Would the effects be less if we do like 20 or 15 instead of 30? 30mi plus 1k reps might seem a little challenging for amateur runners.

[@andrewworrall4302]

30 mile or 30kms?

[@stevehavas3970]

How would you apply / adapt that theory to Ultra training? Specifically 100mile events. But even 100k.

[@runelitecoach]

Good question. I’m an ultra runner myself and my next book is on ultra running. Working on it now. I’ll have more content on ultras on this channel coming. In short you don’t hit the way the same way in long ultras. When a glycogen wall starts coming on you just slow down and eat and walk until you pass through it. Training is inherently geared towards glycogen storage with long long runs. If you’re not training on hilly trails that’s a good place to focus on long runs

[@stevehavas3970]

@@runelitecoach Thanks for the response. Look forward to the new book - very much. Currently just started reading your book and it has annotations everywhere. Very valuable resource. When doing long trail runs I find the biggest challenge is pace, as in going too hard.

[@jonasbrooks5025]

Would this help for ultra marathons? It would probably teach your body to burn fat earlier and burn glycogen more efficiently...

[@wirdman]

Quick question ⁉️❓ are you supposed to take any gels/food with you during this 30 miler? I would assume you go without eating

[@runelitecoach]

On a 30 mile run I am likely bringing some calories. Not gels though, I would bring actual food. Dates, juice, maybe some fruit.

[@jkotulski]

@@runelitecoach Would you then use a gel right before the track session, after the 30 miles? Or would that mess up the theory of tapping into stored / "saved" glycogen at that point?

[@RunThePlanet]

I like what you saying 😄

[@runelitecoach]

Awesome! Merry Christmas

[@jnntinsf]

Would this apply to the half as well? I’m an older runner who ran a half and was cruising along at 7 min mile pace (with high effort) for 9 miles and hit a wall. I’m thinking this case was fitness limits and possibly not drinking enough water on the course. Thanks

[@runelitecoach]

You’re not likely to run out of glycogen before the 90 minute mark. And you can push that even to two hours if you’re well conditioned. So for a half marathon hitting, the wall is less applicable. I mean, you might still get really tired and slow down, but that is probably a function of simply going out too fast and less of a function of running out of glycogen. Still go out slow, try to split, and take a couple of gels early in the race