Never play D&D with these types of players

[@theDMLair]

LAIRS & LEGENDS 2 - The Definitive 5e Resource Anthology | www.kickstarter.com/projects/thedmlair/lairs-and-legends-2?ref=49iyqw 🥓EARLY BACKER SPECIALS🥓 Day 1 Backers get a special credit in the books. This is the only way to get YOUR NAME in Lairs & Legends! Everyone who backs within the first 72 hours gets the following included with their pledge: - A 36 digital adventure bundle - The wallpaper and art pack - Exclusive low pricing on the limited-edition alt covers

[@007ohboy]

Never play with a DM that thinks Investigation is up close Perception or "poking and prodding." No where in the Investigation skill does it even mention "poking and prodding" nor does it mention distance. Perception is used to spot hidden monsters, traps, and secret doors. It's your senses, that makes sense. Investigation is sleuthing and tied to your intelligence to deduce from clues what has happened or is used to figure out logic puzzles or how traps work and how to disarm them.😅 Stop nerfing your players Perception skill. 😂

[@007ohboy]

Also, don't play with a DM who barrages you with Perception rolls because they don't like Passive Perception and like wasting time. 😊

[@Gibonu666]

so sad that you didn't have resources for PF2e. Need to consider getting just PDFs for the adventures and rough ideas for the rest

[@BIGBENMACDOUCE]

Went all out on your kickstarter! Eager to see all of it !

[@JackXombi]

If someone seems like a "Terrorist" it's best to ask the player what story they're trying to tell. If they don't have any good reasons for doing what they'd do then they're probably just a Sadist, Sociopath or Antisocial Personality type that hasn't learned to mask better. Roleplayers are human, don't forget a LOT of humans have mental health issues.

[@mrgunn2726]

Players always seem to want a Matt Mercer GM experience, but they are rarely Critical Role quality players. There are a ton of articles on how to be a better GM, so I really appreciate, how to be a better player videos, we need more of these!

[@xdrkcldx]

That’s a typical critical role viewer for you.

[@GrumpyGrobbyGamer]

Nobody in history has ruined, dungeons and dragons for more people than Matt Mercer. Critical role is entertaining but it is not what D&D is for 99.999% of the people that play it.

[@seanhavern2384]

@@GrumpyGrobbyGamer It is not even a good D&D game. Its incredibly linear and the players have almost no agency. Their choices do not really matter because Matt has to tell his story, which also is not all that good. The players have limited rules mastery despite playing the game for years. Its just a group of charismatic and talented people playing a bad game of D&D. Critical Role thrives off the parasocial relationship it has created with its community and by far the worst game I have ever played in is from a guy who constantly references critical role to justify his terrible DMing.

[@kidthegeek]

​@@GrumpyGrobbyGamertotally agree with that statement, which is odd because it also introduced a lot of people to d&d

[@sladewilson9741]

@@seanhavern2384 Even moreso, it's obviously storyboarded. It's not a game at all.

[@celericasse4391]

Could you do one with "The best kind of players" as well? It could inspire players to indulge in positive behaviours, and who knows, maybe even convert a bad player to a good one!

[@kcbondurant7959]

That would be interesting. I like that idea. Doesn't Genny Di do videos like that?

[@NutScratcher43]

I never played DnD but I am looking into getting into it. Would like this video so I can be one of those good ones

[@Koranthus]

This reminds me of the gigachad players video XP to Level 3 did where all the behaviors are just normal positive player traits and nothing crazy

[@JackXombi]

@@NutScratcher43 Oh dude, if you're having trouble finding a game tell your local game store you're new and they'll probably make it a group project to give you a great intro to it. Nerd love homie!

[@Androsynth75]

The best thing I learned as a DM followed my getting a management job and getting comfortable with difficult conversations. Most of this stuff, like 90% of the time, isn't really intentional by most players, it's usually a lack of self awareness. Sometimes a little private, direct, but polite chat after a game or some gentle reminders that 'hey X, it's Y's turn now please let them finish' and just quietly but firmly letting folks know there are boundaries/rules in place (which you should establish with a new group out of the gate) will prevent this from ever snowballing. If you get someone who doesn't listen, doesn't care, or has actual toxic traits or views: boot 'em sooner rather than later. Life is to short to spend your fun time dealing with assholes.

[@bonusactionheroes]

Spot on my friend, this…

[@doctorlolchicken7478]

I don’t know. I feel a lot of times people know exactly what they’re doing. They’re just not used to being called on it.

[@kcbondurant7959]

@@doctorlolchicken7478 very true. I had a good friend, who I loved a lot, who was toxic in the way he dealt with other players. Very antagonistic and bullying. When I finally confronted him about the way he was playing the game he got angry and walked away. It soured our relationship. It's unfortunate but that kind of behavior needs to be quickly kneecapped before it grows into something that can't be addressed without feelings being hurt.

[@HeatherVerhagen]

I'm still learning this as a player. I ran into a fellow player who always seemed to want to get her way. The DM didn't call her on it. The other players didn't call her on it. I didn't call her on it because I didn't want to start any conflict at the table. For example, every time we voted what to do, her and her boyfriend voted the same way, without fail, immediately after a vote was called for. Since our party had four people in it, they were the majority vote, the DM immediately brought us wherever she wanted to go. We played up to level seven. Without fail, she always got what she wanted. Meanwhile, I got more and more angry, but tried to overlook it. I'm actually going to play the campaign all over again in the future. Looking back, I really wish that I would have said something, or left.

[@thelorewright]

I once had a player who tried to bully, cheat, and play dumb to get his way. Example, he would ask me, the DM, about something he wanted to do and if I gave him anything except a enthusiastic "Yes!", he would just ignore my ruling and try to push his idea anyway. He would then be angry when I called him on it at the table. He even went so far as to try to recruit the other players in bullying another player because he wanted them to leave. That's the moment I told him to leave. From your list, I'd say he was a combination of Aggressor and Lone Wolf.

[@th3n3wc4d]

A player type I don't think gets called out often enough are the passive players. The players that don't want to speak up, that are waiting for someone else to move things along. Nothing frustrates me more than when the DM asks the group "what do you want to do?" and it's just silence. If I'm a DM and this comes up, I just sit there in the awkward silence until someone finally speaks up, but if I'm a player, I'll wait no more than a few seconds before taking over. It gets frustrating when you're presented with a scenario that requires action from the party, and nobody wants to speak up, so you find yourself leading the group over and over again, because then you turn into one of these bad player types.

[@kcbondurant7959]

Happened to me to. I feel your pain. It is less fun when the burden is put on me to speak up all the time. This usually happens with players that are new or inexperienced with the games. The unfortunate thing is that they end up relying on me to speak up when dealing with conversations with NPCs. I don't like that. I want to have interactions with other players. I want to grow in our relationships. I have zero need to play a game where everyone plays a combat drone and follows my lead. I would love moments where I feel like the one who is the fish out of water and I have to rely on others to take the lead. There have been times where the DM has set it up where these drone players could have shined because their background called for it but still they remained zombie like and I had to be the one to interact. It was terrible. The DM and myself ended up leaving that group and played together with different players who were more active and it went much better. I played a character who ended up being reliant on others to get through the story and it was fun.

[@ToonZ_1776]

It's very possible for players to get players involved. Help them make decisions on their own so in the future they are more confident. If you just take over all the time, they probably assume you are always going to, or that you want to. "Teach a man to fish."

[@ethanfrench9111]

Had a rouge run off as a lone wolf, got smothered by a rug. The party had an inkling of where he was and he was lucky enough to use a “last stand” (homebrew rule I have where if a player is about to die with little chance of reviving, they can take a turn immediately before they die/go unconscious to take a heroic last turn to do something. Essentially like those war movies where the hero turns around to face the onslaught of enemies knowing they won’t survive in order to save their companions.) to kill the rug with a high damage roll. Actually the first time I allowed someone in the group to use a last stand because they were normally pretty careful about everything. He stuck pretty close to the group after that.

[@monkeibusiness]

You forgot a burden: The Miserable. People that you cannot make happy. People who drag down the mood by just being there and being miserable. Nothing is ever good or fun, complaints everywhere. I get that depression is a thing but dear god can it be exhausting to deal with some people if they choose to make their mood your problem.

[@kcbondurant7959]

It is unfortunate because I feel for people dealing with clinical depression. But you are correct. It can never work in a game session.

[@hammechakaiju9140]

I have a friends who is this way, and they just go on their phone and have stated they don't like DnD. This is fine and all but when me and my friend suggest we can play a different session with some other people they are not happy with that either. I'm trying to find ways to get them other friends because it feels like they are trying to monetize all our time but when we give them the time they dislike doing anything.

[@monkeibusiness]

@@hammechakaiju9140 Dont burn out and take care of yourself, my man.

[@isaiahkoufos3573]

That’s just a life thing honestly but yeah

[@3ndlessL00p]

@@hammechakaiju9140 I know this comment is 3 months old, but I really hope you stop trying to play with that person. If they, by their own admission "don't like DnD" why are they even there? And trying to monetize all your time together? Not even sure what that means exactly, but every option I can imagine would be a big red flag. So, I hope you can disentangle yourself from playing with them, and maybe reconsider your friendship with them.

[@3of6mylove]

My new headcanon is that you bring a 50. Cal handgun of some kind and just ominously clean it while you DM, and you call it the Adjudicator.

[@genevalawrence801]

Y’all, I have a suggestion. While it’s certainly true that pointing out bad behavior can make people aware that they’re creating problems, one of the things that may improve play is to give ideas for how to play better. One of the reasons problem might persist is that folks lack the tools to solve them. For example, for the spotlight hog - “Verbally check in with the other players to make sure they’re done before you start again.” For the disorganized/overwhelmed/slow player - “Try making a separate combat tracking sheet with all your attacks, damage, and bonuses on a single page.” (Some folks can get lost in the visual density and clutter that is a standard character sheet.)

[@ScrappyXFL]

👍

[@Insert_Bland_Name_Here]

I'm so happy with my new group I just started playing with last week. There's only 2 players, but both are absolutely awesome. One is my sister, who is admittedly new to TTRPGs, but seemed to get a grasp of the basics quite fast, and honestly did a better job of roleplaying her character than I did when I first started playing. The other player is her boyfriend, who's got experience with 3.5e and Pathfinder, so he's not new to the genre, just new to 5e, and instead of being controlling, he pretty much took a step back and let the newbie call the shots in like 3/4 interactions. He's also frequently like "can I take this spell or would it be too broken?" or "would this part of my background make sense within your homebrew world?" Super respectful guy. He's even occasionally asking me questions outside of sessions about the world and stuff, that I haven't even considered, because he's interested in my world, unlike my previous group who were 3 murderhobos. To be fair, we did sort of build my sister's character for her, since she had no idea how to do it, but she got to decide major parts of it, like race, class and sub-class. We just gave a lot of recommendations based on our experience with TTRPGs. We didn't tell her "you have to take this class" or "you have to pick these spells", just "this spell allows you to heal one of you, this one lets you make it easier to hit the enemies, this one lets you make it harder for enemies to hit" and such, and she ended up with a solid build that she has fun playing. Biggest issue we had was that she had forgotten her character sheet, so she had to fill it out again, copying off of the backup I had made on Roll20. But it wasn't that big an issue, because it meant that we could go buy soda and check which pizza-places were open that day.

[@belzebubukas]

-> Runs D&D over Discord -> Turns on his military grade wifi jammer -> Disconnects -> ??? -> Profit

[@kcbondurant7959]

I get the reference. That was funny. Thank you.

[@FiresplitterSpeedrun]

Problem, players?

[@cubancavalier3051]

I can’t clean my firearms during dnd because my friends will all get distracted looking and talking and comparing our firearms 😂

[@3of6mylove]

"My gun's bigger!" *pulls out ship mounted anti-aircraft gun*

[@shaneandera1409]

@@3of6mylove or the "Mine shoots more" and they pull out a M134 minigun.

[@3of6mylove]

@@shaneandera1409 It's all fun and games till the gnome artificer player brings in the world's first antimatter bomb.

[@shaneandera1409]

@3of6mylove at this point you have officially turned from terrestrial d&d to starfinder.

[@3of6mylove]

@@shaneandera1409 Oh I mean the players, not their characters. Maybe they secretly work in military R&D, lol.

[@justinmcwilliams6759]

Dunk your fingers in acetone if you happen to super glue them together again.

[@kcbondurant7959]

And make sure you have acetone available if you are working with super glue.

[@master_rafiki]

I just went to back your project and-ouch-I've never seen a PDF-only tier outside of my price range.

[@RyuuKageDesu]

Nope! Teacher here, and the Stare of Death is still a valued tool in the classroom.

[@whocares9033]

Obviously not an English teacher

[@RyuuKageDesu]

@@whocares9033 Art, actually. 😅 Good catch.

[@whocares9033]

@@RyuuKageDesu lolol

[@soldierbreed]

Cleaning my firearm while playing DnD was so random 😂

[@yourselfgaming897]

Must’ve been an online game right? Seems so crazy to be cleaning you Glock while dnd is happening 😂

[@JamesHazlerig]

I have cleaned weapons during *online* D&D games. I've also changed strings on my fiddle. I usually warn the DM and other players that they might hear some plinking. I learned over a decade ago that having something to do with my hands while watching online courses helps me focus. The same is true of online games.

[@dillonfuller2143]

I feel like everyone has at least one of these flaws. I am a bit of a puppet master myself but knowing what your toxic trait is and admitting to it makes it easy to work on and try to be a better player.

[@Dosbomber]

When I hear "puppet master" players being described, my first thought is "probably plays a lot of computerized party RPGs", like Balder's Gate or some other single player game where you're controlling a group.

[@alien0078]

@dmlair You've taught me 90% of what I know as a DM. Thank you I wish I could be a player in your game. Thank you truly. Your videos/advice led me and my friends to have countless laughs and dire intense situations that led to more fun than we could ever imagine. You are a legend. Thank you!

[@Immudzen]

We had one person in our group only once decide they would just straight up murder a shop- keeper. The rest of the party stepped in and put the character down immediately and then we resurrected their character. Lesson was learned and they did not do it again. They also had to pay reparations to the shop keeper to keep the city guards from being involved.

[@tootired6261]

Sometimes I've missed my DnD session because I end up sleeping in sometimes, but in my defense my sessions are at 5am for me because of timezone differences and it's the only time we can meet all together in a call...but man sometimes I can't wake up that early on a Saturday lol

[@ГрафМакдакула]

Just wanted to ask, did you start playing this game with random people or with friends? Just curious.

[@tootired6261]

@@ГрафМакдакула I started playing with online friends

[@xXpandypopXx]

One of my players thinks he's the comedian, a bit of a harmless prankster/ charming rogue type character but he's actually being a greifer, pranks at other peoples expense and joking about situations that cross the line into cruel or even bullying.

[@SilverishKitten]

And you let it happen ?

[@xXpandypopXx]

@@SilverishKitten ofc not, I might be a first time DM but he's had warnings both in and out of character, when it was clear he had no remorse or willingness to change I had to pull the whole thing.

[@Pobafett]

To avoid ‘The Timewaster’ I remind my players to have three basic actions ready: • What do you do if an enemy is beside you [melée attack?] • What do you do if an enemy is further away [ranged attack?] • What do you do if another player needs aid [heal?] As long as they have a basic answer for those three questions, they have a default option to do if their main plan for their action can’t be done that turn. That keeps things moving along.

[@Letum_Aeternum]

This is great advice! Thank you!

[@michamarkowski2204]

If I wasn't self-aware I'd probably be a timewaster because I like to overthink and overanalyze and check all options etc. (strategy boardgames are PitA for others when it's my turn lol) but I often create a support character (often 2nd tank), jack of all trades (in combat) with a lot of speed and because of that my character is very versatile in combat and I have plenty of options to give advantages/remove disadvantages in battle. Before it's my turn I always have few actions in mind (our caster needs a tank! their caster needs to be killed asap! the boss needs to be slowed down! etc.) and my turns are usually the shortest ones.

[@trublgrl]

This video makes me really appreciates one of my players. (I'm a co-player, not a DM,) She has years of D&D experience, builds her characters with optimum stats and abilities, and obviously knows the rules very well. She COULD dominate the rest of us, she could be the tactician, the leader, the aggressive murder-hobo, but she is a great team player. I've only got about two years of playing, and one of our players is _brand_ new, so it would be so easy for her to be controlling, but she's really helping without dominating. And, uhm, if you have a player like that, let them know you appreciate it!

[@KingJahamesIII]

25:47 I wasn't really paying attention to the video because I was folding laundry but when he said thus I went like 😮!

[@edwardbirdsall6580]

I like edge lord loners. The encounters are calculated for 4-6 plyers. If you wander off that calculation does not change. "You stumble into the next and see a group of ghasts eating a loner edge lord". If the thief likes to steal from the other players because it is what their characters would do. Consider what the other players would do. (kill the thief in question because that is what their characters would do)

[@Blind-qz7pt]

When I was a teenager 3 of my friends were total edgelords. We ran a serious 3e game with my other friend group. We mixed groups. 3 "I work alone"-ers got gotten. Bad. A near brawl ensued.

[@buenokitty3497]

Great vid. Im all about nipping it in the bud during session zero. But tysm for this. Finally a yt'er saying what i been preaching all along: if you ruin the game for everyone and make excuses like "its what my char would do" you can gtfo. Subbed!

[@BabyKrogan]

I’ve struggled with being an unintentionally bad but well meaning player. I tend to get overly excited and my brain works quickly so I tend to blab too much, think I need to fill any silence otherwise it would be awkward, solve puzzles before the other players have thought about them, read the books and feel the need to tell everyone about different rules, spells, lore, etc…all the time. Super annoying. I’m trying to be better but it’s a struggle.

[@kcbondurant7959]

I admire your desire to change and be better. That should be commended.

[@genevalawrence801]

Would it be possible to ask your DM or group for help becoming a better player?

[@SK-WPG]

Phenomenal video. Amazing. We have a player in our campaign who exhibits quite a few of the toxic characteristics and has adversely affected the rest of the players. Shared your video with our DM.

[@faerylnhiikira1053]

25:44 "...and that could exasperate the situation!" I've never heard this word used in this context before. Looking up the exact definition though, it fits! Good for Luke, using that ol' noodle of his! 😁

[@Torvik40]

Actually, I think the word he was looking for was "exacerbate".

[@SimonClarkstone]

@@Torvik40 There was definitely some mixing up of "exacerbate" and "exasperate" in this video.

[@Moloth]

i think this is the most real and most raw version of the "types of bad players" videos out there. Painfully accurate and thorough!

[@SrChr778]

I've had at least one or two control freaks at my table. Like anyone, we just let these antics slide, but once that person starts to get disruptive, I immediately speak up and put it plainly, and condescendingly: "Who is the DM here right now? I certainly don't see you sitting behind the screen." When he tried to get pathological about it, even personal, that's when I gave him the only 2 options he's allowed to do. And those were, either follow the governing rules like everyone else, or the door. Lastly, I implied it was entirely his choice to make. If you guessed the latter, good guess. Though only after he vented out his self-righteous tantrum before doing so. But we all just sat there, patiently, and when after he finally left, I looked at everyone; my brows raised up like, "So, your thoughts?" Most of them just shook their head, "Thank God that's over with." After that, I decided, "And his character gets mauled to death by a Dire Bear, after drinking too much and getting lost in the sacred woods." 😎😎

[@TheW1tcher78]

I am soon about to run my first DnD game, I have seen few videos of your and I love them all. I want to say two things. 1. I love your face expressions whenever you say something silly. 2. Great tips (maybe not necesarrily in this one (but you catch the jazz (I believe)))

[@rylo2795]

I personally struggle with protagonist syndrome. I really try hard not to and I'll often have to actively think about not saying anything when someone else is doing something. I'll even wait a while after an npc or dm addresses the party to give other people chances to speek. The problem with that is that it often leads to everyone just staring at each other until I give in and speek up.

[@kcbondurant7959]

Then, according to the information given, you are not the protagonist he is referencing here. Sounds to me like you are the one who isn't afraid to actually roleplay. D&D needs to be a collaborative storytelling experience. From what you are telling us, the problem is the rest of the group. I have experienced a lot of games where people have that social anxiety when it comes to interacting with the NPCs. While it is necessary to speak up when no one is saying anything to get a game moving, it can be problematic and less fun when a group relies on one player to be the spokesperson for the entire party every time.

[@greaterrestoration6214]

I have the same issue, but it's not always a bad thing. I often try my best to let others step forward and lead, talk, or make decisions. But 90% of the time, I have to be the one to do it anyway.

[@certifiedfunnyguy]

I often have puppet master instincts, especially in pf2 when I see people position foolishly or spend actions doing things that certainly won't work. I have tried to pull back but it is my instinct.

[@angeldoesfunny]

Imagining my players cleaning an actual weapon while in game is both awesome and terrifying 😂

[@intoxicatedmasculinity]

I think one good practice, as a player, is to play a support class, with no thought of DPS. I typically play dps classes and could be described as a light min/maxer. One one-shot I played I picked a bard and just selected things that would help my fellow players with no thought to DPS at all. It was a good experience, got me thinking in different ways.

[@kcbondurant7959]

I like that idea. Sounds like a solid plan. Bards are perfect for that and can be one of the most fun classes for a roleplaying experience.

[@Buzzkilljoy1248]

Personally, if a point buy system is used, I always try to make my character's base stats fairly well-balanced to mitigate potential shortcomings. An all-rounder jack-of-all-trades makes a great fallback for any party, as your stats may not the the best, but at least they're not the worst.

[@jennycox4463]

You used to be a high school teacher? That’s awesome, teachers are brilliant! And you’re so good at explaining things, you must have been great!

[@willprotector]

Humor is how some people legitimately handle stress. They're not trying to kill the mood -- they're just scared shitless.

[@kcbondurant7959]

Fair point but it can still be problematic when it happens consistently. Of course you were not defending that action in your statement either. Just making people aware which is valuable.

[@some_Russian_dude]

I must admit I have been an aggressive rule lawyer at my current table, but I blame not having a session zero alot of rules are homebrewed, like you need a bonus action to take a reaction, crit fails, opportunity attacks being used only when they enter the melee range, initiative doesn't mean combat, had an argument over that last one, so I just apologized and decided to roll with the punches so to speak. I hope me or the other player who seems he might want to do a raw/rai campaign will give some different perspective in the future if we dm as I don't think the table has ever ran a raw campaign. As wacky as the hombrew rules are at this table there has been some interesting ones that I really do enjoy. Like dashing isn't a action it just subtracts the movement from your next turn. So if you have a base 30 and dash 20 you will only 10 movement next turn. Another really nice one is potions of healing. You can use a bonus and roll the dice or you can use an action to carefully drink the potion gaining maximum amount of hp that potion can provide. I think it's important to keep an open mind and maybe you'll find some really cool things at different tables. And if it's really that bad that you can't stand the rules it's probably better to just leave.

[@kcbondurant7959]

Interesting. I like this comment a lot. Plus it illustrates the importance of having that session zero.

[@KoKoJoBlacKSnaKe]

I have one; The Complainer. I DM'ed and had a player just complain about everything. Constantly made excuses and was always trying to get sympathy from other players. I'd say there was only one path or one way to go and they'd complain about be railroaded. Just everything. Now that I think of it, they were quite a bit of a Role Play Terrorist too...

[@Letum_Aeternum]

That sounds like a such a pain, although railroading can be it's own issue as a DM if you don't communicate with the players beforehand that it will be that kind of game. Players who try to make drama and gather sympathy points from other players to use against the DM or another player are the worst. If someone doesn't like the way someone runs a game, nowadays they can easily find another group without derailing with arguments.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

There was a game where I have certainly been rules lawyering a lot. I tried to argue: -Slashing/Piercing/Bludgeoning damage a Barbarian takes when Raging is halved, rounded down. -Barbarians get advantage on most Dexterity saves. -Being close to a ranged enemies causes them to attack with disadvantage. -Small player races have a carrying capacity of 15 per Strength. -Grappling is an attack. -Characters can throw a javelin as the second attack after attacking with a Versatile weapon. I mean, I understand the DMs rulings are final, but it would have been nice to know these things before I made the character, or at least before I took my turn.

[@Hobofish11]

Other than Barbarians having advantage on most dex saves, these are just standard rules.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

@@Hobofish11 Yes, I don't understand why arguing these points is wrong.

[@Hobofish11]

@@schwarzerritter5724 Your DM doesn't know the rules and was just winging it. Nobody has to memorize every single rule, but these are really basic ones. Just look it up in the book next time

[@schwarzerritter5724]

@@Hobofish11 Wouldn't you want the players to explain how their character works if you don't remember then?

[@Hobofish11]

@@schwarzerritter5724 As a DM, yes. A gentle reminder on mechanics/ rules is appreciated. I mess things up too, it happens. Just be careful not to veer into Rules Lawyering territory where you're interrupting, rude, or argumentative.

[@beverleybee1309]

What's sad is there's people like these without a game involved. It's especially frustrating when you work with them.

[@seymourfields3613]

I can actually use some advice. We just started a new campaign at level 1. We've been playing for two years, we started with five players and are now down to three, plus our DM for four at the table. We've had multiple campaigns and short adventures over the past two years, so we've had experience with different characters. Another player at the table rolled up a Druid. She played a Druid in a level 1 Dungeon last year, so level 1 Druid isn't new to her. We get into combat and she casts thunder wave. The DM explains the spell to her and explains there are no enemies nearby, and confirms she wants to cast the spell. She confirms. There's a loud boom and nothing happens. No goblins are hurt. She sulks. Next turn she does the same thing. Last adventure we had, she played a sorceress and relied on her (cross?)bow instead of her cantrips. In the campaign I ran, she played a barbarian, but refused to use rage, because she didn't want to play an angry character. I keep my mouth shut. I'm not one to yuck others yum. Is it wrong to ask my DM to like.. Balance combat for two players? Like, have her at the table, happy doing nothing.. But not make us suffer combat that's balanced for three players while she spends her turn talking to her familiar?

[@kcbondurant7959]

Wow... I have a lot of questions. Some of them would be to question her mental state of mind which might be something you are unaware of or inappropriate. Or... Is she trying to make an ironic character? Is she trying to make a character that is conflicted with using her abilities and hoping for a moment in the game were using them becomes part of her growth as a character? Was there a zero session when she first joined the game? Do people offer advice before or after the game or even during? Is she more of a roleplayer than a technical player? Many many more questions I would ask to get a better understanding. As to the question you put out there... "Is it wrong to ask my DM...." well that depends on your relationship with the DM. I can't imagine why it would be wrong to ask your DM anything, but I am not in your group and I have no idea how that 'player/DM' dynamic works. Why would you feel like it would be wrong to discus anything with your DM that might improve your gaming experience?

[@seymourfields3613]

@@kcbondurant7959 she's more of a role player, for sure, however she also struggles on the social pillar of play. Both with NPCs and other players. In general, we don't get a lot of "campfire discussions" as a party, anyhow. We do have session zeros. At the start of every new campaign. They're not too in depth, kind of a rough overview of what the campaign is about. I doubt she's trying to make an ironic character. She honestly seemed miffed that thunder wave (or thunder clap, I'm not sure which she was using) can't be like... Shot out. Like, he explained that to her, and she confirmed she wanted to do it, then sulked it still didn't work. I know the rules very well, and tried to help her when she was new. After a while, I felt I just had to pull back because I don't want to be playing her character for her. I talked to the DM about it a while ago, and told him I'm more than happy to give advice, but I don't want to step on toes. DM runs a "no metagaming" type table. He doesn't like us discussing how many hp were at, and often doesn't tell us what he rolls to hit, he asks our AC and tells us if it hit or not. So I seriously wonder if he would get pissy if I asked him to balance combat taking into account she'll waste two or three turns. Like.. Is that a bad request?

[@krispalermo8133]

@@seymourfields3613 Just speak up in a polite manner and get it over with. Life is about growing as a person and building a solid moral character for yourself. Don't let yourself be held back by oversize underdeveloped children. Doesn't anyone understand the statement reads across the video game screen, " target is out of range for spell effect." Sorry I wish that is a bad joke. G*D after meeting people over the past six years that refuse or never read 3e or Saga Edition because it isn't Disney canon lore back. Or are total shock that you/me and my old gaming groups RP imperials like that is some kind of major social sin. Along with starting mini campaign with 4th-level PC, ... or run a game at a given level. " Ok, everyone is playing 12th-level PC you have 10minutes to crunch before game starts." Or I have everyone draw index cards with prewritten PC and the player fills in background skills/talents. You are an actor and here is your stage character role to fill. Along with having players fill the voice roles of N/pcs.

[@certifiedfunnyguy]

​@seymourfields3613 just a reminder that crossbows are likely better than cantrips lv1-4 so that isn't a bad idea. But the thunder wave thing idk

[@Wyvernil]

Another subset of the "aggressor" type is the Grudger - which takes two forms. One is the kind where the mental divide between character and player is so thin that they take any criticism or pushback against their character (even if it's an in-character opinion) as a personal affront, and start holding grudges. The other is the kind that lets out-of-game drama between players spill into the game. For instance, the kind that tries to kill another player's character because of something the player did outside the game.

[@GeraldKatz]

I've met a few of those during my 2E years.

[@lancelotscart582]

I haven't been to Bilbo's in *years*! Thanks for the happy (gustatory) memories!

[@RobKinneySouthpaw]

I have rule lawyer tendencies. I was proud of myself after doing a full year descent to Avernus game and only doing two rules lawyerings. One was pointing out the nalfishne that I grappled could no longer fly ad we were both about to get wrecked. The other was a conversation about how surprise rounds should work. We had done it his way for a year without a word. But now I had grabbed Assasinate on my archer. "We can keep doing it your way, but I'll be wrecking every encounter if we do. Might want to roll initiative before resolving the surprise actions, just in case your boss beats my roll."

[@tscoff]

I backed your Kickstarter campaign today. Thanks Luke!

[@s.p.1434]

A comment regarding the whole "player's not paying attention" part. Make sure that this behavior is not due to some sort of mental illness or form of neurodivergence. As someone who plays with multiple players with either ADHD or who are on the spectrum, I will often say them doing behavior that one would qualify as "distracted". The key here is to talk with them and help them find ways that help them manage that aren't disruptive. Unironically, something like a fidget spinner (or other sensory toys), or having them do an activity like he mentioned like painting minis, etc. can really help those out with these types of issues. The key here though is exactly what he said: *minimum* brainpower requirements. Neurodivergence or not, you should still find ways that are as minimally distracting as you possibly can handle for both yourself and the others around you.

[@Pherim_]

ADHD is not really an excuse. I know i will get distracted if i start doing anything else during the game, so i just dont do anything else, not matter how bored i am

[@BenGTheSun]

I never knew that one of my problem players (who I have kicked out of my group) had an actual name for the behavior they displayed. Burden sounds accurate ;D

[@KevinVideo]

What's wild is how many of these types of toxic players show overlap. I had one player that was 3-4 of these, but especially the blackmailer type. He actually threatened physical violence when things didn't go his way, was usually drinking beer, and we even had to call the cops on because it had escalated so much.

[@TeganJGaming]

Shoutouts to Kzoo!! Sweetwaters is my favorite donut place & I love Bilbo's! Are you from Kzoo?

[@ElHipokondriako]

I have just pledged to the kickstarter. I am going to be honest, this is the first project I have backed and I did it on a whim. I thought it's good value for that much content and convenience, especially with the Foundry assets, so I took the plunge. I have high hopes! :)

[@kinsan89]

I currently am playing a Lawful Evil character in Dragonlance. Any time I am doing something that will harm another PC directly or otherwise, I always directly ask them if it's okay with them. If not, I find another way to go about my plan. But 95% of the time, they're okay with it as long as I'm asking them beforehand

[@krispalermo8133]

Polite manner to maintain story plot flow. Whitewolf/World of darkness(WoD) vampire and other such setting games are more or less played as lawful & neutral evil characters, so is Star Wars imperials, Sith, and Hutt freelance shipping pilots. My second gaming shop around nearly twenty years ago, though I was Overly too nice of a person. So I ask the shop owner and two DMs to Play in Character. You know a real D*ck, chaotic neutral;/ somewhat evil character. A roguish bard that steals and donates or spends all of his ill-gotten gain in the name of his Donner. I am not messing around trying to pizz off the player, its just my character hustling your character and not you as a player. No really, I had the shop owner and half the players red face giving me evil looks. We had like a half an hour break to grab so food and to come down. The shop owner was beyond Pizzed with me but his wife was in a laughing fit. At the end of the game my PC rob Everyone and hard cow manure pranked them. And the Plucky Rogue got away again. Then the shop owner, his wife and me let the group in on what happen. Now we had a N/pc rival they want to murder, which over a years time they took slow revenge on, Epic ways such as the rogue being horse drag through half a mile of road manure. Now for our Star Wars games, ... " I just gave an ideal and half the group said I just earn a darkside point. What is up with that ? " The Sith minor lord says to the young Jedi that has been with smugglers for a few weeks to long, " You are Learning my young Jedi friend."

[@xxTerraPrimexx]

Congrats on reaching the funding goal for Lairs and Legends, and Loot and Lore 2

[@kcbondurant7959]

Why do I always look at the word 'Lairs' and think 'Liars'? I thought you were trolling at first when you were just trying to be nice and genuine.

[@xxTerraPrimexx]

@@kcbondurant7959 Lmao it is worse when you constanty mis-type it as well haha

[@jeremydurdil556]

Thus illustrating the importance of controlling who you allow at your table. It truly is the single most important decision you will make regarding the success of your game. One must always protect their table from minions of the dbag army. Stay strong and be proud of your game.

[@twilite_king8904]

Me and my friends had a pvp moment in our kobold. The party split into two camps 2 on each side we almost had a full battle.

[@ScrappyXFL]

LOL I was watching a campaign, saw a lone wolf murder hobo. All the players were part of a superhero agency and she didn't care if ANYTHING lived or died, bad press for them, so many hospitalizations and morgue entries. "Hey can I play!?" talking with the GM after one bad gaming session, and they were ready to kick her out -- In comes the polished Japanese publicist/semi-manager. Second game session I'd goaded her to take a flying leap at me. Yea, lots of subtle verbal backhands. Wasn't as fast or strong (raw) as her, I'd built a defense hero -- took all her momentum and added what I had and directed her into the ground. She pretended it didn't hurt and walked off, found out from the GM I'd almost killed the supposedly ultra survivable character -- if I'd just frogged her arm for killing damage, 1 point, death save would happen. She got the message and got along with the group better. 👍 Sometimes GM's need help from players and it's fun playing a yakuza who's got a sword hanging over his head if he f's up his mission. None of the players found out about my backstory which tied into the arch of why the company employed all of us 😂

[@kyleward3914]

Bilbo's is great. It's a go-to when some friends of mine who live far away come to town.

[@salttydawg2273]

Ever been to 2 Fellas? The Bronco wrap is legit heaven in a tortilla.

[@kyleward3914]

@@salttydawg2273 I have not, but I may have to try it.

[@brokenmeats5928]

I love ALL the DM Lair videos!

[@RadeFoxxy]

Bilbo's pizza is where we used to game every Sunday when we were in college! Was always a very fun place to hang!

[@xisle555]

What??? Bilbo's exists? It used to be in East Lansing off the MSU campus (across the street from Pinball Pete's) and closed decades ago. It's legendary. OMG it's a long drive to Kzoo. Worth it. Hopefully.

[@zebramussels141]

It's worth it. I still go there with friends when I'm able to make a trip back there all the way from Maryland.

[@kcbondurant7959]

@@zebramussels141 Wow. I need to try this place. So much high praise here.

[@GIJoeFactotum]

Speaking as an ex-middle school teacher - I especially liked your angry stare comment , and the would probably get you in trouble now.

[@yokaidigital3033]

When I was in college we had a nice chilled game in the dorm say for one guy. He fell into two of your types. He was definitely a protagonist who wanted to lead every decision, he was also an argumentative aggressive player as well. We had three game nights with him and our master did give him a warning to be less aggressive and let everyone have their say. He did not listen and after third game session we voted him out of the game. We continued to play the rest of that college semester and had fun without him.

[@TheTrueFeleas]

Personally my DM and I love using the round table rule: when in a situation, DM will go around the table asking each person what they want to do in the situation.

[@DragonKingZero]

What if the side conversation is in-character (like two PCs chatting while the BBEG is monologuing)?

[@eliasorta86]

Man, my last session, my entire party "forgot" their sheets after having two weeks to get everything together. Then they got mad at me because I was supposed to sense they didn't have their sheets

[@kcbondurant7959]

Wow... find a different group.

[@feththeexorcist]

I used to have a really bad case of main character syndrome. It took me about 2 years to get that mind set fixed. Over 6 years later, I have gotten to the point of being invited to more games. Hit someone with a reality check enough times, they may or may not improve themselves over time.

[@mammonclarke]

I get the vast majority of miniature painting done during game time. During the summer have I often played whole game sessions while floating on an inflatable lounge chair in the pool.

[@kcbondurant7959]

How? How did you play an entire game in the pool? Seriously, I want to know because that sounds awesome.

[@KartiacKID]

When realizing that my 12yr old self and 2 companions all showed multiple anger types to the dm….as Shaq-fu the warrior and I fight over who gets to let the princess ride on their noble stead

[@KartiacKID]

In other words, we all had fun causing chaos for the dm as trying to all find ways to cheat

[@GuardsmanKleeves]

Can confirm Bilbo’s Pizza. Usually busy, but well worth it.

[@kcbondurant7959]

Is that not the perfect name for gamers to get pizza from? How genius is that?

[@tkmccloskey]

This rice hog is the first time I've heard this talked about and my first table had this same exact guy! He played a drow with the last name Do'Urden, I wish I was kidding.

[@kcbondurant7959]

Wow... how imaginative.

[@kcbondurant7959]

I ran a game that was Forgotten Realms 10,000 years into the future so it was mixed with Star Wars. Magic became the force. The gods became the force... jedi were just getting started... etc. The guy played an elven jedi named Ziggy Stardust. I kid you not. So annoying.

[@Letum_Aeternum]

Do'Urden is an established family within the lore, it's incredibly unoriginal but seems fair as long as they aren't a complete Drizzt copy.

[@28mmRPG]

Our rule of "stay in-character through the entire game-session" elevates all your player issues. Jack would not be able to do the things you describe... if he did the other player characters would intercede with Jack as he breaks the 4th wall and he becomes an NPC as the DM drops him from the group (or he learns to stay in-character)

[@despina013]

Recently had a regular absentee player return to the game after two weeks and freak out on us because his absences caused his character to fall behind one level. He got frustrated and started telling the rest of us how his life problems away from the table are worse than ours to try to get me to let him switch my table rules from an XP-based system mid-campaign. It's a sad situation because he's a good friend and he is going through a lot, but when he started lashing out at everybody, it became important to tell him he needed to go take care of his mental health. It's been a rough weekend. Watching this video to remind myself that every table has some rough interpersonal bs pop up at one point or another.

[@shaneandera1409]

The first campaign I ever played in at my LGS, I was grouped with the roleplay terrorist. Yeah, first character death and he totally ruined the mood at the table by getting everyone other character killed at the table that session as well. Even the DM wasn't happy about it. Another variation is the noncombatant terrorist, where they adventure with the party, and decide not to get into combat when other character lives are on the line.

[@squirrelking5203]

I might have to go to Bilbo's sometime and try their dill sauce. And I can confirm Sweetwater's is amazing.

[@jamessm4401]

I’m glad I’ve known my players for 20+ years.

[@JL-xv9di]

Lol. I feel like the player who doesn't know anything and refuses to learn could be known as "the significant other." Or atleast that's been my experience with it.

[@Slaughterhouse_Floor]

I call it my DMs wife.

[@cefcephatus]

I imagined the burden and the terrorist in the same table: Ter: I sneaked behind bur and roll for assassination, it's a success. Bur: How could you! Now I don't have the second character to play with. DM: I'm the one who call for a roll. And I don't accept it. Ter: But the result is out, my chaotic evil character would do that too. DM: I use rewind, and I change this script. Ter: What? You can't bring back death. Bur: What? DM, you can control how we play? DM: ... Should we end this session here?

[@PlayfulOtter]

Listening to this video I realize I've been at a table with many of these players. In fact my old core group was some of these players. The Seether and The Competitor are forefront in my mind. There was a murderhobo in the group but they left the group. I recently distanced myself from my core group so i could run games for new players, and it has been amazing. These new players are wonderful players, they thank the gms for running, they help each other, they actively listen, they want to learn, everything.

[@danielinthewolvesden]

The solo player edgelord can be fixed by there simple three words "you encounter nothing".

[@kcbondurant7959]

It's a good idea but that can still depend.

[@Malkuth-Gaming]

What if you as the player, sends this to your Group and its the DM who identifies with one of the problems?....

[@kcbondurant7959]

Okay... I confess. I learned some things with this one using introspection. I feel like I've grown a lot over the past decades and have changed a lot when it comes to gaming. I can see some of the things I did in the past that might have fallen into some of these categories. I definitely witnessed other player, pretty much all of those listed, when both running and playing these games for so long. But I think it's important to recognize and adjust to your own style of gaming, either running or playing, so that you can enjoy your gaming experience that much better using the points mentioned in this video.

[@kidthegeek]

I like your description of a rules lawyer in action. Makes me feel a bit better about myself. During a session i usually mention something but that's it. If i disagree with the GM's decision i will talk to them after the game. Even then if they agree that I'm right about how x should be but they run it y I'm ok with that. It's just when there's a big thing and it's them not understanding something that i will really argue.

[@trublgrl]

I'm afraid I am the comedian. I have had to backtrack so many times when the DM asks "Do you really say that?" when I say the MOST ridiculous thing to get a laugh when it's neither appropriate or in character. It's embarrassing. _But if I get the laugh, it's worth it._

[@bespincloudcity]

Painting minis during the online session?!?? Ahhh hellllll noooo.

[@Ifyoucantflyyoucantry]

I definitely recognize my past self as a burden and even now I still sometimes forget that we’re playing that night. But the reason I was a burden was cause I played dnd when I was really young and had a very bad understanding of rules and when told this was how this works I wasn’t exactly told why this is how it works (though I wouldn’t expect the why to be explained since I had the players handbook and should have known) and since we play dnd in the evening when I’m tired (and as such forgot it or just doubted my memory) I was basically constantly uncertain on what to add to my roles and whatnot. This was because I just didn’t go through the hand book or have the rules explained to me fully and properly which while I definitely still should have learned those rules or asked I still have explanations like how I have social anxiety and suck at making myself do stuff when I don’t have allotted time. This is all to say that there can be reasons for actions and if you can find those reasons, do. And then help them solve it which I eventually did by just looking through the book and making a character and I got to understand everything so much better and I know actually understand the rules.

[@clarkside4493]

My in-person group has been a couple of these. I'm looking to leave amicably since we work in the same building, but I may not be able to. They didn't listen when I told them to roll scores in front of me. They keep expecting some big metropolitan city that has whatever magic items they want when I told them there's one modest city and most magic items they have to adventure for in this setting. They argue with me on rules because they use second hand knowledge of 5th edition from Critical Roll and a knock off DND app that has incorrect info, which they tout proudly because they paid a few bucks for garbage. And when they do argue, they pull out that app and say, "Let's see what the _app_ says." As if I'm stupid and then I have to pull out the actual books to show them they're wrong. I even let them borrow my books, hoping they would read them. But no!

[@Scott-sk1rb]

I think it would help with problem players if you were cleaning your firearms at the table during in person games LOL

[@samzilla1281]

I had a character that was the wandering off one. But he wasn't an edge lord. The party tended to get bogged down at times and my character was easily bored. So he would wander off. But he always came back for any big fights. The DM handled it by notes passed back and forth so the other players didn't get shortchanged.

[@mudshrooze]

I need some advice. I have one player who constantly I mean nearly every roll fudges his dice. He gets nat 20s and unnatural 20s every other roll. But other than that he isnt really causing issues he jsut always avoids any consequences.

[@homebrewisthebestbrew5270]

18:30 I dealt with a knitter for YEARS. Can't tell you how many times she lost track of the party's actions, even in the middle of combat. Especially in the middle of combat.

[@kcbondurant7959]

Then she doesn't have the multi-tasking talent required to be knitting during the game. Obviously, she is not engaged with the game and that needs to be addressed.

[@stephaniejenkins7822]

Watching this I noticed I myself am a bit of a steamroller 😅 Thankfully I'm in games where the guys are really chill and understanding, and I stop myself when I realise what I'm doing. Unfortunately, I myself have dealt with a rules lawyer who is also someone who would just get argumentative over everything I did in my game, even though the entire group I run a game for are on notice I'm a beginner Dungeon Master; fortunately for me after blowing up the server and causing a big fight over an item I decided to bring in to my game because it's homebrew, he saw himself out and things have been smoother sailing since.

[@Gaming4ever-pd7jv]

23:46 Tell that to Hasbro, which is going out of its way to make D&D as politically charged as possible. I'm very tired of it.

[@ScrappyXFL]

woke...

[@crimfan]

One type of dysfunctional player can often bring out other types in players who have their own latent tendencies (and we all have them). For example, a burden can bring out someone else’s latent control freak. That gets ugly.

[@MrIdleknight]

You gotta be in base combat for normal melee, otherwise I wouldn’t grin in business meetings when someone talks about touching base with me…

[@Shamustodd1]

First two and a half minutes sounded like you were describing a recent former president. Just like Jake/Jack we the GM would have been better off if he'd never been allowed at our table.

[@Oathbreaker.]

Rolling Horribly when it matters the most, is so much more fun in certain instances :D makes for a better narrative

[@ryanwaters6586]

Any issue here can be dealt with if they don't continue to happen or happen excessively. I agree that if it is a stubborn person who won't change or can't change, then it is best to move on from them. You should make sure not to be too quick to chalk them up with one of these labels though and pass hasty judgment, as we all have our moments. Of all my players I've ever had, (including myself as DM and player), we have all had issues before. It's how you recover from them is what counts. Excess level of these behaviors though is a deal breaker. I myself am tired of restarting a game after we drop THAT guy. I don't have enough time anymore to be wasting my time, I am sure everyone else feels the same way. It's also disrespectful to their fellow gamers and the DM, for them to sabotage the game with petty behavior if things don't go "their way". Some friends are best left as just friends and not gaming together.

[@asolanara]

I have either DM'd or played at the same table, as every single one of these 😂😂 When multiple of these players are at the same table....my DM and I litterally just took cover while the chaos played out

[@scottcooley5125]

I like listening to your videos and I often stream your thieves around game while I'm work (I'm a bit behind). I'm curious if the game you mentioned in this video, wherein you are a player, is available to steam? I'd be interested to see your personal play style. I've seen your sessions with Ronald, but you didn't seem to stay in very long. I find your information as a GM very helpful, but I also want to make sure I'm being a good player, too

[@matthewhamlin392]

Luke should of winked when he talked about the dagger.