NEVER tell me: "No ethical consumption under capitalism"

Is this phrase a help or a hindrance? It's all about context, so let's talk about it...
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[@brees3]

I feel like the phrase started as a way to criticize over-consumption and now it's beginning to mean the opposite. A few years back, I always heard it in the context of "There's no ethical consumption under capitalism so we should consume less. The only ethical choice is to not consume." Now it's used far more often to mean "There's no ethical consumption under capitalism, therefore I shouldn't hold myself accountable for my consumption." It reminds me of the phrase "Money can't buy you happiness." It began as a phrase to mean "Over-indulgence and greed is bad because money can't buy you happiness." It was a critique on wealth. Then it turned into "Money can't buy you happiness so stop complaining that you're poor." and got completely misused.

[@leenanorms]

Exactly this

[@kslaney4161]

Yes!!! Thank you for explaining my jumbled thoughts so succinctly

[@benwrex6280]

This is SO RIGHT. Brilliant comment.

[@cap4life1]

Spot on comment

[@allyoucaneatish]

This 💖

[@bubblybridget56]

I started being distrustful of the phrase when people used it to justify "shein hauls."

[@amordesdemona]

I swear suddenly the last few months I see tons of people simping for Shein and going "well you have a phone" or assuming that if you don't buy Shein, you must buy from Zara or some other fast fashion brand

[@MariannesStudio]

Yes!!!

[@jessm229]

you gave me a thought, its like, yeah theres "no ethical consumption" or whatever, but there is definitely UNethical consumption. does that make sense? its like, you can't just use the fact the systems broken as an excuse to do stuff you fully know is harmful.

[@tiny.raindrops]

​@@jessm229yup, as with many things, it's not black and white, ethical or unethical. It's a spectrum of being more or less ethical, and obviously it would be best to make the most ethical choice that is available to you.

[@solisglam]

these people have fundamentally misunderstood the intent of the phrase. it's actually targeting advocates of "green growth" that want to combine sustainability and capitalism. the phrase says that, if you want to be sustainable, you have to abolish capitalism first. it is a call to action, not a justification for inaction.

[@eleanormaddocks1834]

I liked The Good Place’s take on ethical consumption/moral living, which is that it is impossible to be perfect in the society we live in but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do your best anyway.

[@alinkadebruin3455]

I was about to say something so similar! That show completley altered the way I see morality, consumoption, activism and life lol.

[@manoune78orange]

Yes! This scene comes back often in my thoughts when I’m confronted to these types of choices and it’s really helpful!

[@sallys.2707]

I remember when my parents asked for a "non smoking" table in restaurants. Now if someone lit a cigarette on the terrace everyone look bad at them. Wild how smoking became socially unacceptable in just 15 years.

[@Lisa-zx5kb]

Similar anecdote: My mum used to go on about how all the popular kids smoked in the toilets, and she couldn't escape it at school. Fast forward to when I was her age, the new kid tried to take a cigarette out on the school bus home, and literally everyone from the jocks to the nerds, the entire bus gave him daggers as in, wtf dude, that's so unhealthy and illegal. For context, Mum was at a rural public school in the 80s, and I went to a middle-class (though we weren't, yay, scholarships and support) non-gov regional school in the early late 00s - early 2010s. But still...I hope the same effect happens with vaping soon. :D

[@I_love_You_And_Me_1996]

I'd say it's good that people don't like smoking cuz it's unhealthy

[@MaggieWoodward]

“Ultimately the future is paperwork” is sending me. I think the central point is that we don’t use “no ethical consumption…” as an excuse not to think about it, it’s just the panacea for when we *have* to choose between two options, neither of which is ideal. Sometimes, we don’t have the choice, but that doesn’t let us dismiss the times when we do have a choice

[@Lisa-zx5kb]

That quote sent off a panic button in my little ADHD brain not gonna lie. But oh well, it's just paper and ink. I'll get there eventually...

[@PumpkinMozie]

It seems to me like the phrase originated as a way to reduce eco-anxiety and remind people that they can’t be perfect all the time, which is a valid sentiment. But it was hi-jacked and repurposed as an excuse to not try and just eschew all responsibility/consideration for future generations.

[@brees3]

I'd also like to add that adding demand for ethical products is a way to use capitalism against itself. For instance, I used to wash my clothes with EcoNuts when I learned that soap berries were the most environmentally friendly option that I still found effective. They used to be sold on EarthHero, where I get all my cleaning supplies. But the demand wasn't high enough and the company shut down so that eco-friendly option is no longer available. If we don't patron the places we can that are ethical (or as ethical as they can be), then they disappear.

[@montetiger866]

I heard the smol brand does sustainable cleaning supplies, that might be something too look into

[@katherinegrant4651]

I've been talking about this a lot recently. Under capitalism, the only power we have is our spending. So we should spend in ways we believe in, we should boycott products and companies we disagree with and love by our principles

[@AnaT0]

@@katherinegrant4651 besides spending and investing in things we believe in, we have loads of power!!!To self organise, join an union, talk and work with people in your community! the world is not so bleak in my opinion and the future will be bright if we realise how much power we do have

[@Zimtchocolatesca]

This hits! And thank you for reminding me about soap nuts. I used them when I lived in Germany 14 years ago! (….scary to think it has been that long… another story.)

[@raapyna8544]

​@@AnaT0 Yes you are right! But also, those are not capitalist methods. We must keep in mind that capitalism isn't our whole reality.

[@maleahlock]

That pigeon's impression of a slippery oil baron was simply marvellous. Give that bird an award!

[@alisonjane7068]

Some stray thoughts: I have no doubt this phrase is used as a sort of nihilistic cop-out, but I originally saw it used to point out that it's not just about individual choices, that we also need to be looking at the larger systems at play, and holding them accountable, and I think that was illuminating for me, at the time. Companies really want us to think that we can just buy their "green" products, and everything will be fine. (I do draw the distinction between companies doing this cynically and those genuinely trying to be as ethical as possible.) I also see the right saying things like "you use cell phones," "you buy stuff from big corporations," etc to shut down leftist discussion. I understand someone using this phrase to respond to that sort of attack. Anyway, I liked the video! And I agree with your main point that we should be supporting ethical brands, if possible, and be resisting in any way that we can, big or small.

[@tessavanderstaak7093]

Leena, please please stop saying that your patrons "keep tipping you for some reason". Your videos are insightful and provoke critical thought, and are also lovely and entertaining. There is no need to put yourself down like that ❤ Let's not normalize negative self-talk, okay? 👈

[@rosemarybruce6290]

I think I go on this rant at least once a month. It's so disheartening seeing people say this phrase as an excuse. I personally don't care if you want to buy from Shein every now and again because you don't care about the impacts, but at least be real and honest about your reasons.

[@jisooc1042]

it's the thought-terminating cliché of climate nihilism! love your exploration of the context and nuance behind what makes something ethical, or more or less ethical, because it's far from an all or nothing designation.

[@ayerhead07]

To me, the phrase serves as more of a call-to-action than a cop-out. I want to work toward a world where I don't have to work as hard to find a good choice. Folks like you and the vlogbrothers have done a lot to help me view the world through a lens of doing good, or at least doing no harm, with my daily actions. But as an ADHDer, my executive dysfunction often butts up against my sense of justice and all-or-nothing thinking. I have to be able to absolve myself of overwhelming guilt and paralysis in those moments by reminding myself that I didn't create the unfair systems we live under. I try to do the best I can, when I can, but I'm also not single-handedly creating the great pacific garbage patch when I can't. I find it to be a useful frame that helps me keep going.

[@AN-sm3vj]

Yeah I hate the discourse around this because it ignores the very simple fact that (in the US at least) what you're buying is very much determined by your location and your economic class. And most adults don't have the time to do deep dives on every product they buy or weigh it against the greater good. Furthermore corporations are aware of our exhaustion and use it to greenwash products. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism so try to buy less and get law makers involved to hold companies accountable. So, I feel like this is a bit of a bad take by Leena that ignores that most people are navigating the world with handicaps (financial/mental/physical/temporal) and the opposite of this is corporations foisting the responsibility on to the consumer and a "vote with your dollar" mentality. Which doesn't work, see meat subsidies and plastic recyclables.

[@raapyna8544]

​@@AN-sm3vj Yes, the options are limited, but most people in the Global North are buying more than they need and spending less thought on their purchases than they could. Our environment is crafted that way; for example internet shopping is made as fast and simple as possible so that you have less time to think about your purchase. I know for example here in Finland more than 50% of the people belong in the bracket of the richest 10% of the people in the world. (Which can also be called 'middle class' by our standards) The amount of people in Finland who can only barely afford the basic necessities is small. It's more like you have another problem - no time - which is because you value your time differently, and give value to other things which you give time to. For example focusing on your family or work in stead of thinking about your responsibility towards people you don't know or care about, whose conditions you've learned to naturalize ('that's how things are in those places, they've always had it that way') because of our imperialist and racist history.

[@ahuman5772]

@@AN-sm3vj I don't think it's a "bad take" in the way you say, since most people don't actually live in the US, so it's not most people who have the issue of having to buy things that are bad for the environment due to their location and economic class. In fact, the poorest people in the world are often the most ethical because they make things themselves. It's the middle class and rich people who actually need to "vote with their dollar" because they are the ones who have the dollars and tend to overconsume (although poor people in rich countries also tend to overconsume compared to people in other countries). We know voting with your dollar works because if no one bought Shein (shitty and impractical clothes), Shein would not exist, so we voted with our dollars by buying Shein. Most people buying a bunch of unethically produced items have money to spend elsewhere. I would recommend learning about how people outside of countries like the US live. Some of them even share one cup between multiple people. I definitely don't think they need to be thinking about ethical consumption since they already don't "consume" almost anything at all, so I think Leena's criticism does not apply to them, since they are already living more ethically than most.

[@Siures]

Oh yeah, the guilt… I am the same. It’s not possible to find a sustainable option for everything we need. And that’s OK - I still have to tell myself that it’s OK. It’s not fair to put all the responsibility to me personally. I sometimes feel like I am destroying all our planet by buying a pool noodle because I want to teach my son how to swim without simply throwing him in. For me the phrase is consoling. Sometimes it’s the system, not me.

[@julecaesara482]

"A lot of the time, people who are labelled as social justice warriors, are simply just people who are trying to mentally live in the future with the hope in the back of their head that they can bring it about a little bit faster." - Leena Norms

[@Miss_Lexisaurus]

oooh this is interesting because I've used this phrase a lot as a way to assuage my own guilt when making the best possible choice but knowing it isn't perfect. As in, I reassure myself that doing my best is good enough because "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism." Also "the future is paperwork" might be the most glorious rallying cry ever for this organisation geek!

[@Karibird22]

Same! It allowed me to give myself some grace and not place undue blame on myself.

[@hannahnicole8141]

This reminds me so much of the dilemma shown in The Good Place! (Spoilers!!!) The original framework was that moral actions and living a moral life was so absolute that absolutely no one could get in to the Good Place, because somewhere down the line there's always some negative aspect that could compromise the "morality" of an action. You could never buy your mom flowers because of all the emissions from shipping those flowers to where you bought them - it's a paralyzing, nihilist take. Ultimately the characters were able to reframe it into doing their best and living by what they owed each other. I wonder if the phrase "no ethical consumption under capitalism" is similar - it can either be hopeless or it could be hopeful, in a "nobody's perfect" way. I also agree with another commenter about the phrase pointedly trying to include systems of power in the conversation and not just putting the onus on individuals to be morally responsible for everything. But I think your thoughts are also incredibly valuable on how this phrase is weaponized! You're absolute right about the need for a small essay

[@ciara1045]

yep! i think about that plot line in the good place A LOT

[@AnnaEmilka]

This phrase never ment to me "you won't win so why try at all", it motivates me to try and change and challenge the system to make it more fair, sustainable etc. But then I'm in my own internet bubble and I haven't heard many people using it in the first meaning so mayeb I just didn't get sick of it

[@nanimaonovi2528]

This is why I work at a library. We allow all people, if not all behavior, and welcome all to just inhabit space and borrow our stuff. It's extremely punk when you think about it.

[@songbirdlyricz]

I second this. Libraries are punk as hell

[@grappisrule]

"It's the fuckboy phrase of the left" omg ded

[@carly6107]

A related anecdote: I used to work on a local farm that used Integrated Pest Management. They are not organic certified for many reasons, but are truly doing fantastic work to farm as sustainably as possible and provide good food to the community. It was frustrating to occasionally have customers walk out with a disgusted look when they heard that we weren’t organic. Also, organic certification does not guarantee best or sustainable practices, and certification is a nightmare. I went for a while after this disillusioned by the concept of organic certification, and I would buy local vegetables when possible, but otherwise ignored organic (definitely had a no ethical consumption mindset!). Until last year, when I interviewed for a PhD program with a professor who works on Integrated Pest Management, agricultural practices, local ecology, and climate change. He mentioned offhand that one of the reasons their department was so well funded was because of a boom of interest in organic and sustainable food production from the agricultural giants in southern CA, driven by increased consumer interest in organic food. I know a number of things are true here-me, individually, buying organic doesn’t really impact the situation. Organic food itself is no more or less ethical than non-organic, it’s all just food. But I also now buy organic again if I see it (and local is not available). I think keeping these conversations going is the most important thing, and I also feel personally better when my choices most closely reflect the kind of world I’d like to live in.

[@thebermudaI]

I've had a similar experience! I've tried educating people about a nonprofit that helps farmers minimize their environmental impact, usually by cutting agricultural chemicals by 50-100%-and that's when people get disgusted and ask why we would "let" farmers use agricultural chemicals at all. The nonprofit is about working with small farmers to increase sustainability in ways the farmers are financially comfortable with, and it's really discouraging that people see things in such a black-and-white way and then just turn their ears off.

[@juliemorrow174]

Not to be a downer but depending where you are "Local" may not be trustworthy label. There's a new gaurdian article called The truth about ‘local’ food in US supermarkets: ‘It’s a marketing gimmick' on it

[@jknee6]

I love this video! I’ve been trying to be an ethical consumer since I went vegan in 2017. Plastic free living was the hardest one and I have largely let go of a good amount of my anti plastic life because of the area I live in and the way it contributed to disordered food habits. But in general, I try my best with ethical consumption. I get so frustrated when people say that phrase because it’s a total cop out. It refuses to recognize any ability they have to make a change because they’re too insecure to acknowledge that maybe they can do more. I often see us leftists as a really flawed group bc I feel like there’s a lack of personal accountability but also lack of allowing to see others and ourselves as morally gray. I want humans to recognize their humanness but also try their best to be better and not have ego tied up in it.

[@adjjal]

Well said!

[@madisonannabelle2691]

Yeah

[@anya_mezzo]

Thank you Leena, I really truly appreciate your voice in a sea of voices trying to convince me that what I have it’s not enough and in order to be happy I need to consume more, I fall into the trap consistently. It can be really hard and daunting to try make even incremental changes in my life to love the planet that we live on - your encouragement is so appreciated

[@albiesspace]

I thoroughly enjoyed how this was written, with the quote that was not too long for me to lose interest, the comparison to the stuff in the museum and how it was all wound together in the end. I really appreciate your craftmanship here!

[@leenanorms]

Aw thank you that means a lot!

[@yellowzora]

I love your point in how only 3.5% of people (if I remember the number correctly) need to advocate for the change to happen. I thought the number would be much higher. I try to change things regarding fast fashion by volunteering in a charity shop and buying only the clothes and other bits that I'm really 100% on, so pretty low buy for the past few years, but I always wonder if I'm doing enough. I just often don't have the energy or money to do more than that, but this video gave me a peace of mind that I didn't know I needed. I will continue to try my best!

[@bruno37a]

« Sometimes you’re just the one who darns the bastards socks shut » may be one of the most important lines in leftist dialogue in my political journey. Definitely has Douglass Adams meets Noam Chomsky vibes.

[@zoeolsson5683]

oh my goodness ... I love your intellect and your insightful takes on the world ... thank you for just being here on KZbin...I feel like I am at university again where the big concerns of the day are valued and discussed not disregarded as "not being practical to everyday life". These phrases "No ethical consumption under capitalism" ... "Think Global act Local" are rallying cries ... yet I so agree with the fact that they are too big a commitment for everyone all of time. So they have a purpose but they are an ideal something to strive for. Sometimes darning the socks is what you can get done if you can't over throw the regime. When there were dire health circumstances in my family... I just stopped recycling I didn't have the energy to sort it out - glass jars just went in the general bin. I felt ashamed when I mentioned this to a friend of mine and the look on her face ...oops.... yet I also knew I did my best. My best was to see that rubbish leave my house and was dealt with in an appropriate even if not optimal manner.

[@caitlinpaige1247]

PLEASE take the future is paperwork to the next level and make a video on how we can use our people power to influence policy change. Also, loving the explanation of bringing the inevitable future into our present and definitely gives language to what I've been feeling for the past few years. Thankyou as ever for another excellent vid, and please extend the gratitude to your pigeon correspondent.

[@samiansley5740]

It’s funny how phrases change since I still thought and used it as, “while there is no ethical consumption, I’m doing my best to make the best choices and it’s bad out there”. Though as always, I love learning from your thoughts and knowledge gathering!

[@ampersignia]

I like that you present a contrarian point of view in the kindest way. I always feel like I’ve learned something about the world, the incremental impact one person can have, and myself. Thank you. P.s. one video you had where you wanted to eat a burger once and your friend avoided it in general kind of changed my perspective to action based on incremental impact > action based on identity. I don’t have to be a full time vegan, I just generally reduce my meat consumption (helps that I don’t crave meat that much).

[@shoyuramenoff]

"Consumption in general isn't inherently unethical". TW: Verbalized suicidal thoughts/ideation When I have been depressed in recent times, one of the things my brain falls back on is saying that I'm a waste of resources and it isn't ethical for me to be alive. This is definitely a commentary on capitalism's effect on self-worth. However, the idea that being living, breathing human beings the need to sustain ourselves and give ourselves a good quality of life being inherently unethical/unattainable is not only wrong but a really depressing idea. A lot of people who say "no ethical consumption under capitalism" are really saying "there's no hope/who cares/shit's fucked" and a lot of people who I meet with this mentality tend to have a generally pessimistic outlook on life itself. From experience, nothing feeds depression better than apathy and hopelessness. Being able to do something about a bad situation is not only good for your community but good for your mental health too.

[@annikamin6914]

"Ultimately, the future is paperwork... it's not flashy banners or songs, I fear that it might be admin" is hilarious (and I loved your delivery of it) but also an important reflection that I link to the importance of policy and regulation and all of the small and big ways we get there (including through the collective impact of individual action and protests that involve flashy banners and songs!). I'll be thinking further about this quote the rest of my day.

[@annnna4e]

"The future is paperwork" made me snort laugh. 😂 It's an interesting phrase to look at generationally - I think my mum reads it with the follow-up "...so do whatever", whereas I end with "...so choose the least worst thing" and my teen who is only just starting to think about this kind of thing finishes "...so let's destroy capitalism!"

[@newt5111]

This is incredibly well said. The part I really locked onto was the idea of people seeing others trying to make more ethical choices as a condemnation of their own choices, which is often what makes conversations about the climate (and other issues like the exploitation of workers) very difficult. It can be hard to explain the reasons behind my choice to buy second hand clothing or to eat less animal products without people getting defensive as they see it as me judging them, when in reality I'm just trying to do what I think is best. Also as you said this phrase creates the idea that there is a perfectly ethical choice to be made, which isn't true. I've recently noticed a shift in the climate movement where its moved away from ideas that were previously very popular (like the zero waste movement) that required being perfect and more towards just doing what you can, which is a lot more inclusive and in my opinion will lead to more change and a bigger impact in the long run. Another great and really thought-provoking video!

[@Juststudiothings]

I came to argue with your argument but realized that we're actually on the same page. All roads via Capitalism lead to the same place. However that doesn't mean we can't make ethical choices- ultimately it will ALWAYS mean consuming less than capitalism wants/needs us to. There are ALWAYS choices available, but "sacrifices" will be made regarding availability of options and that should be ok. Convenience and more choice are worth giving up if it creates more life to enjoy for everyone.

[@lucymoon]

Leena this was SO GOOD and I learned stuff about why this phrase is icky that I'd have never found the words for so THANK YOU

[@lucymoon]

also incredible thumbnail

[@leenanorms]

You can thank Craig for the thumbnail

[@BryonyClaire]

It's all about harm reduction, right? That's how i view conscious consumption, including veganism. Educating and advocating for change is good, on all levels, but the whole "demanding perfection" from everyone is flawed, better that the energy is used to change things on a systemic level, it's the ugly boring admin stuff, along with protests

[@sophiaisabelle01]

Your insights are detailed. We appreciate all your hard work and dedication over the years. We will support you no matter what.

[@Porelcaminitoyotellevare]

The phrase is not to justify stupid hyperconsumerism is to pointing out CAPITALISM itself is the problem

[@annahuisjes3355]

Sometimes I feel like it doesn't matter that I try so hard to consume and eat as ethically as I can, because not everyone will be doing it and it makes me feel so distraught I can't get any work done during the day. This video really helped me. Maybe it will mean something after all.

[@lilafliesrockets]

I agree with the idea of following your own ethical compass and judging by situation. I have to drive to work because there are no good public transport links to my workplace and I can't afford an electric car/don't have the infrastructure around me to drive electric, so I try not to consider my petrol car journeys unethical. But things I do have control over, like eating plant based and buying secondhand I try to stick to as I have a true choice to be ethical or not. It's important to try where you can or what's the point.

[@Dead0nline]

Leena, your videos are my favourite and have helped me make better environment choices thank you so much I hope you continue to make content

[@360shadowmoon]

To add to the list of ways to ethically consume, I would also add acquiring from buy-nothing groups/neighborhood-sharing groups. Not sure if it technically is considered "consuming" if you don't pay, but the rise of neighborhood buy nothing groups in my area is a form of developing a sort of library economy, which is an alternative to capitalism.

[@luthienprice2949]

Though I do agree that when I usually hear the phrase is within the context of "well, what can you do then?" and a shrug, I do not think it's obsolete yet. I have found that it has personally helped me tremendously to cope with my ongoing and, frankly, ever increasing anxiety of not doing perfectly all the time. It lifts some of that (at some points almost unbearable) pressure. So I think that for people who stress excessively over every little decision they make and the impact it may have at the world around them, it could be a very helpful and concise reminder of the reality we collectively live in. A refocusing, a step back to look at the bigger picture again, when they get lost in the minutiae.

[@kelseymilburn8676]

I cut ties with fast fashion about 6 months ago. its pretty easy and pretty cheap as I have a wardrobe that I love and rarely want for anything, and whenever I'm after a certain piece I find there's a thrill in the chase of trying to dig out the piece on depop or in charity shops. however I recently found myself in need of a new plain white t shirt ( something that I really had need for as it made all of my strappy dresses and tops work approp) and this really stumped me. I felt like the need to consume "ethically" was making me a bit of a chump - like I could buy a new, ethically sourced and produced white t shirt that would cost me like £20, or I could buy the same fast fashion piece on depop for double the original price and with someone else's pit stains in it. And I took a look at my wardrobe and thought that some of my most worn items that were bought 10+ years ago were fast fashion basics whereas some of my least worn items were impulse buys from charity shops bought in a scarcity mindset. I think I'm going to buy the shirt from Primark. £2.50. does this make me a bad person? cause I'm weighing all my options and choosing the least ethical one? why do I have to feel the entire weight of ethical decision making on my shoulders when most people would just get the shirt from Primark without an ounce of guilt? (sorry for ranting)

[@timjordan8911]

Love your glasses, your captions are good, your book suggestions are great. Love your channel, so much fun

[@hannabusse8137]

IMHO: I think that statement is mean to criticize capitalism, not consumption. No?

[@soupwitch8453]

I really appreciated the framework of looking at 'ethical consumption' as more of a gateway behavior toward breaking the numbness. I've always felt a little bit critical toward the idea of ethical consumerism as a means to an end so it's really helpful to me to understand that it does need to be more complex than that AND/BUT you have to start somewhere. You brought a lot of clarity to this for me- thank you!

[@rachaelerin1]

When I first heard that phrase, it was like a light bulb moment. It made everything make sense. It’s not just our clothes but where does electricity come from and all the little bits in our electronics and who picked that strawberry you’re eating?? Over the years I started rolling my eyes when I hear it though and worried that I was becoming nihilistic or complacent. Thank you for this very balanced response! I can’t go full eco warrior like I tried to do before having a family but keeping up with small habits I started then (like subscribing to a compost service, using cloth napkins, etc) can still be a Good Thing.

[@c4tac133]

Me too. Something that reminds me of this video is when I watched a short where the person in it was explaining that it’s better to be half vegan than not vegan at all. Or quit eating beef and leave it at that. You don’t have to go all in because something is better than nothing, and that usually leads to you being more comfortable with doing more.

[@PageTurnersWithKatja]

Love this. I try my best, though not perfect. I will always remember forgetting my gloves in winter and buying a pair in a supermarket. The person I was with started lecturing me on fast fashion and I agreed with them but my fingers were freezing so I bought the gloves anyway. When they wouldn't stop lecturing me after I'd bought t them I snapped 😅 and pointed out that they work for an online fast fashion shop. They said: "Yes, but in my role, I don't have responsibility for choosing the product. Personally, I buy quality items." It left me wondering: Where does this come into the discussion?

[@juliak1615]

You know, not many people manage to educate like this while also being absolutely hilarious - that pidgeon interlude? Appreciated!

[@VeganBeautyGirl]

LOVED this episode. definitely fell out of love with the phrase lately too, probably because it's been coopted to excuse excessive fast fashion hauls so frequently now.

[@patri_octurnal]

Leena, your channel is the coolest! Awesome vids, sense of humour, helpful insights and of course brilliant book recs. Love listening to you! Cheers from Spain :)

[@jefcaine]

Thank you for this! This is the probably the number one argument I hear against veganism.

[@kslaney4161]

The pigeon intermission was hilarious. Thank you again for such a thoughtful video.

[@itsjustlenneke]

Like many other commenters, this phrase originally really resonated with me. It reminded me that perfect doesn't exist and I shouldn't beat myself up over little things when I know I'm doing my best within what my circumstances allow. And I've also seen some people out there who honestly think they are better than others for living in an "ethical" way, who could use the reminder to stop judging people. But it's definitely a shame the phrase has been used as a nihilist cop-out so often! Ethical consumption might not exist but that doesn't mean we can't strive to do better to the best of our knowledge and abilities.

[@kittysunlover]

In my particular friend group, the phrase gets used as more of a way to give ourselves grace in a difficult situation. We have the difficult, nuanced conversations, but sometimes at the end of the day, we kind of have to go "Well... we did our best." It comes up when someone is guilting over something that they were on the fence about but felt like they had no other choices, like "Well I bought this thing that was probably produced in a really terribly exploitative way, but I need it to live..." and trying to reconcile the guilt with the necessity. In a way I think we use it a bit more opposite of how it's being presented here (and maybe more popularly used? I don't know) - not "We can't be perfect so we won't try," but, "We can't be perfect anyway so we'll forgive our shortcomings, let's celebrate our efforts and keep doing what we CAN do." Like the real-world version of that scene in The Good Place after the humans find out that under the current system's rules, they literally can't go to The Good Place when they die, so Eleanor gives a rousing speech along the lines of "So what? Let's not make it about that, then, and just see how many people we can help on the way to hell."

[@hannahbate5766]

I don’t usually comment and slightly off topic , but my short attention span really appreciates the different location changes throughout your videos - thank you !

[@SofiaCalotti]

Honestly, this made me rethink some pants buying plans I had. I hope I can find a less harmful alternative (I need specific ones to prevent bad sensory issues). However, I need to say: As a disabled person it can be SO hard to determine where to start and stop, mostly regarding how much energy I have and do not have. Anyone else struggling with this? Does anyone know some resources on this?

[@booksinbed]

I don't have any great resources for solutions, but I just wanted to say you're absolutely not alone! I've read blogs about this topic, me and my disabled friends talk about it, and I see it posted about in disability spaces. The challenge is real! I think it's a practice. We each have to figure out how much energy is feasible for us to expend at any given time, and we're not going to be able to look at able-bodied people for comparison, just like when Leena talks about how one's financial situation changes the dynamics of 'ethical consumption'. Just a personal note, for my mental health I try to align my responsibility to myself and to the world to some degree, rather than make them feel like opposites. E.g. how can I take care of myself so that I am better able to have a positive impact on the world around me? Wishing you the best!

[@SofiaCalotti]

@@booksinbed Thank you! Not thinking about it as being opposites is very helpful!!

[@scout8145]

I definitely feel this! Even though the topic is different, I think the book How To Keep House While Drowning really helped me be more graceful with myself about this. One mini-chapter is called “you can’t save the rainforest if you’re depressed.” I try to think of it like this: would you give someone a hard time because they have to use disposable needles to treat their health condition? That would be a terrible thing to say, and completely unhelpful. You know that this issue is due to a disability, so give yourself the same kindness. If you can’t find good alternative pants, then buy the pants you were already planning for. Look for ways to help them last longer, like gentler/colder wash cycles and learning mending techniques. You deserve to be able to thrive, and you can make up the difference by finding other ways to do good. You’re already doing a heck of a lot more than someone who hasn’t thought about this at all.

[@SofiaCalotti]

@@scout8145 Thank you so much, that does really help. That book is on my reading list 😊

[@sophiegeek1]

I needed to hear tthis today and feel really encouraged. Thanks Leena 💚

[@Dancinglemon]

This phrase lost all meaning to me when people were using it to justify a fun, non essential purchase that wouldn’t effect them but would directly fund and encourage hate against my community. They’d say they were ‘allies’ but there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism in the same comment chain as someone telling me to off myself because of who I am.

[@leahaf808]

Yeah I absolutely hate that phrase now, because I only ever see it used to justify hyper consumption. Honestly, I'm not sure that my actions will make any difference at all, but they're worth doing in themselves - not just for others, but for your own peace of mind/mental health. To sit back and do absolutely nothing, even the small things that are within your power to do, just makes you feel helpless

[@LisEibh]

I really appreciate the balanced approach to this topic. As a fellow 90s kid, I remember the cigarette-smoke infused air we'd play in while our parents socialized at the local pub. Or genuinely believing that the climate crisis was over when CFCs were banned 😅 I really do hope the regulation of other harmful practices gets introduced sooner rather than later but this video is making me think about how quickly I might judge a person on their choices when really, we're all doing our best with the info, budget and bandwidth we each have ❤

[@merlijn-lottekrommenhoek4389]

I always interpreted the phrase 'no ethical consumption under capitalism' as: the most ethical and sustaineable thing to do is to try not to buy anything new if we can. Because it is so easy to get everything your heart desires within a few mouseclicks. I am expecting my first child in september and having a baby is one great consumption party, there is so much stuff that you supposedly need to welcome a new human into the world and buying these items used or borrowing them from friends that have young kids is not something people do as the default for their new needs. Most expecting people around me go shopping as soon as they can and when you offer them something second hand, they look confused. There is so much baby stuff that is thrown out because people no longer need it while it is still perfectly good and useable, because these little ones grow out of them so fast that they cannot possibly wear them out. And the prices, omg!!! Some brand strollers are sold for the same price as used cars because 'of course you want the best for your child'. What about: the best thing for my kid is a future where there is still a planet to live on, so our nursery only has second hand wooden furniture and I sew my baby's clothing from oeko-tex certified cotton knit fabrics that are all the last scrap from the fabric bolt, so nothing has to be wasted? Consuming consciously with ethical and sustaineable production in mind is what I strive for, and that is never perfect but I think not necessarily unethical. Agree wholeheartedly with Leena there, wonderful insights in this video so thank you ❤

[@kimbcampos]

THANK YOU. This was a joy to watch.

[@SIC647]

I think about this with plastic. I used to work in a store, that got new products twice a week, wrapped in endless amounts of plastic, that was immediately thrown out. Home plastic use is insignificant compared to that of the industry, of businesses, of retail. And yet people spend so much energy trying to swap or avoid product to avoid a teensy bit of plastic. So should they just... don't? Well, if it is all they ever do, then they might as well just use plastic. Because if it becomes an individual's problem (as e.g. the plastic industry made it with their campaigns for not littering), no real change comes about. But through reducing plastic, many people become more aware of waste, of overpackaging, of over-consumption, of the lack of recycling. And they begin to demand systemic changes.

[@lalaillustrator6295]

Love your point about how it’s not about being perfect but about planting the seed in everyone of us that will make us think about all this and make better choices ✨ Your videos have been and continue to be that seed for me!

[@thatbberg]

I always thought the phrase is meant to point out that profit in and of itself, one of the main points and drivers of capitalism, is in itself unethical and basically wage theft. That the structure of capitalism itself is unethical. That even if you're buying from an environmentally conscious company, that company still probably rewards owners and shareholders more than workers because that's what the economic system requires. That there are no ethical stocks, because the stock market itself runs on stolen wages. It goes beyond the environmental impact to the human and financial impacts too, so it makes sense the phrase feels less applicable when you're only talking about the environmental stuff. I agree that it shouldn't be used to excuse or defend bad behavior on the individual level, but it's still a useful phrase for summarizing the power dynamics of the economic system as a whole. But just because some people misuse the phrase doesn't mean it should be retired imo, in that case we'd have to retire a lot of other language too. For me, the phrase was actually liberating because I realized there was no perfect ethical consumer within capitalism, and instead of focusing on "do no harm at all," an impossible, depressing task, I could instead just try to "do as little harm possible."

[@meta4972]

Thank you so much for that video leena ; it really put some words on a feeling I had been having for a while. Cheers!

[@aspatzle827]

You really hit the nail on the head with this video!

[@shantim7740]

absolutely absolutely love this! I do think one other function of the phrase is a signalling on - it's a way to say "hey I'm aware that I am living in a world where the choices I get to make are not always ideal ones" - in hearing people use it in the past, the allusion to ethics, the negative view of capitalism is a sign that, like, we might be on the same page about some things. So in that sense it's quite useful - but it's a phrase that should open the door to thinking about how we use resources, not rob us of the agency to make changes.

[@toddfoolery1701]

I stopped saying "no ethical consumption under capitalism" when someone used that phrase to excuse crossing a picketline

[@ChrisanneDaniel]

Whenever I’ve used or heard the phrase it’s always been in the context of “I’m trying my best but it’s hard to be perfect in an imperfect system.”

[@ItsRadishTime]

I'm going to be linking this to people constantly! So tired of this being used as a "if you can't do everything do nothing" response.

[@Emiliemooles]

‘The future is paperwork!’ - I love this! Administrators really do have so much power! That is definitely the most beautiful edition of The Great Gatsby! 😍 I love the topics you talk about. They spark ideas and make me want to try to keep learning/to try new ways of doing things. So thank you! 💙

[@manoune78orange]

I needed this video today! Thank you. I made the link to another conversation I had today that got me in this spot of being the annoying person at work : non-violent educating and parenting. People immediately get defensive because they think we’re asking them to be perfect parents or educators, but all we’re asking is for people not to allow the false and cynical view of « children are manipulative and mean » to prevent them from trying to do their best to respect the kids’ rights and needs… but the conservative media and society LOVE to get in the way of this progress and it’s exhausting… So yeah, thank you for the hope and the nuance of it all!

[@cordeliaistheone]

Love this video but I always used the phrase to help a marginalised person feel better about buying for example the cheap plastic tampons of the world, because it's the SYSTEM of capitalism, upheld by those with more power than we do, who do the most harm. Like when environmental justice is framed as individuals recycling and turning off lights when even if we all did these things it wouldn't fix shit because it's the big companies, rich people and the inherent wastefulness of capitalism using all the resources and making the world unlivable. However, while this is all still true, I learned more recently how revolutions happen through daily changes and building grassroots community networks, leading by example, so we have more power than we think and small changes do have an effect as we build to systemic change. And I hadn't heard the 3% statistic thing about changing the world through admin lol Things like that give me hope and do reframe the "no ethical consumption" idea, but yeah, I think there's some nuance you didn't fully explore (not that you can say everything in a 15 minute video) even if you did still add so much to the conversation, thank you 💜

[@chelseashurmantine8153]

This was amazing. There is a citizens climate lobby today in the USA capital and this rant paired with the 1000+ people putting their face in front of officials in meetings on Capitol Hill, this gives me hope and faith and comfort that progress is always possible and I have been right to not give up hope

[@sierrabird2460]

(I'm American so my comment makes more scence) I feel like it started as a comfort phrase for those of us who are trying to do our best but don't always have the means. I'm a low income murican after I had my last babies (twins) I had literally no clothes so I had to desperation order from SheIn and could only afford like one or two items at a time to sustain myself temporarily, then I got my tax return and could buy from less bad retail but they're all shitty. Then I was able to start slowing sewing/knitting/crochet my own clothes. But now I'm still stressed over the ethics side of supplies. It's rare to find something without enough material for myself in my thrift store. I buy from small fabric/yarn companies when I can joann's when I can't. Hobby lobby when it's extremely cheap or I'm desperate. (They're bigots for those who don't know) but chances are none of those supplies where ethically made just not as many unethical steps involved which I still feel bad about. 😂 So the term can me comforting.

[@cathfelton1955]

I think what's been so amazing to see for myself and my husband is that we try and shop as ethically as possibly and its so amazing to see the affect this has had on some of our closer family members. Specifically parents and grandparents. My mum got very excited about the refilling that we do and hunted down a refill shop near her and decided to switch to an EV and solar power. Just by saying that we got items of clothing on vinted have encouraged our in laws to look there too and got them excited about 2nd hand clothes. And grandparents made a concious choice to buy us vegan body wash (still in plastic bottles but we're getting there). Anyway just some examples of how just modelling ethical consumption is contagious :)

[@Karibird22]

I have yet to hear this phrase used as justification for not trying to make ethical consumer decisions. When I heard it, it took away the shame I felt and allowed me to give myself some grace because I realized how truly difficult the system makes it to make ethical consumer decisions. Maybe the phrase should evolve to be "it can be very difficult to make ethical decisions under capitalism"

[@purringlion]

The shock when I realized people used this phrase as an easy cop-out... My mind always just went to "none of this cr*p is ethical so maybe we should do something against capitalism itself." The root cause isn't consumption, it's capitalism. So, maybe instead of finding excuses for the symptom, let's do something about the actual cause.

[@sutematsu]

I use this phrase as more of a self-soother when I don't have a lot of good options. I do my best, but sometimes your best stuck isn't great. Reminding myself of this helps me remember that it's the system that's messed up, and I can only do so much.

[@tripodologia]

I feel this is such an important discussion to have. People often forget that being an "ethical consumer" is oftentimes a process of discovery and re-discovery. Perhaps more recently these type of things are being discussed more openly, there are more resources, maybe even topics that are brought up in school. However, for most of us, it has been a choice to try and seek this information, change our thought patterns, and go down a journey in which our ideas change, and our knowledge grows. It's not something that's goes from 0 to 100. I for instance started by becoming a vegetarian 20 years ago, whereas clothing purchases and cosmetics etc. didn't even cross my mind. I then became vegan a few years later, and started implementing more and more vegan / cruelty free cosmetics into my routines, but was still heavily purchasing fast fashion. It was only a few years later that I realised the extent of the impact of fast fashion and how it wasn't just "clothes", and I then started researching brands before I made a purchase. It's only been in the last 2 years that I switched to exclusively buying 2nd hand except for situations like the one you described (i.e. losing luggage etc.) or for underwear and all that. In the last year or so I started purchasing 2nd hand leather (mostly vintage, but not exclusively) and wool items because I realised the durability of these far outlasts the durability of plastic-based synthetic items. It's a process, and a nuanced one at that. The amount of times that I have had people inquisitively question me and my habits etc. when they learn I'm vegan though... and try to engage me in some kind of argument about the feasibility or morality of veganism, I think I've lost count at this point (and it's never me the one who starts these discussions). People also often think that if someone is vegan it means that they care far more for animals than they do for humans... like, sorry but no; being vegan also includes, at least for me, caring for the environment and the planet we share, the ethics behind food and clothing production, and the use of land for agriculture. It's like, it seems to surprise people how we can really care about more than one issue at the same time.

[@exhaustedeloise]

totally unrelated and shallow, but i’m loving the short hair on you leena!

[@IngeborgEngh]

“Ultimately the future is paperwork”

[@SephStuff_]

most people don’t have the choice to consume under the 4 ‘ethical types of business’ that you were referring to. since ethical business is always over powered by unethical business, it is much harder to find. asking people to go out of their way to “consume ethically” is kinda classist

[@ThreefoldDesigns]

Ooooh, I love your comment about 'living in the future' - that's a great way of looking at it! Saying that, I still judge (and can't be friends with) people who buy animals from breeders instead of shelters ... that's a deal breaker for me ;)

[@red_velvetcake1759]

So, for me, I used to buy all my clothes except underwear 2nd hand, and other things I'd try to only buy from shops if I couldn't find it 2nd hand first. Then two years ago I developed a very sudden, very extreme Contamination OCD which has not gone away since. I feared anything could be 'contaminated' and so I've gone from buying everthing second hand to buying everything new overnight. That includes clothes, and because I'm poor I get clothes from the fast fashion shops I hated. I also end up binning clothes sometimes because I feel I've contaminated them. What's worse is I'm doing this as the only way my brain will feel safe, at the same time as hating it and myself because I had been trying so hard to buy everything ethically and I'm having to go against my own morality, which feels horrible. It took a long time for some of that feeling to go away and to not blame myself for something that's caused by an illness. I'm on a waiting list for treament and in the meantime this illness effects every aspect of my life, so I don't need additional things to worry about ontop. I know this video is not aimed at me, and I don't use terms like 'there's no ethical consumption under capitalism' mainly because I don't like stock terms much and also hate this one being misused, but I guess it does give me some feeling of relief. I've not watched the video cos I know I wouldn't make it through, so apologies, but I'm mainly commenting to spread awareness and because otherwise the title will just convince me I'm terrible and not doing enough 😁

[@neraeid]

Love hearing this hopeful perspective! Whenever I hear or use this phrase, I think of it in the sense that neoliberal capitalism as a whole is a wildly unsustainable system in which consumption as a sociological phenomenon can never be ethical, in direction of the fact that we need to develop a better way of regulating our societies and getting resources to our people, but as you pointed out, that requires a massive asterisk next to the phrase and a much longer essay. One of the things I struggle with on a personal level with this phrase is that even if we know that capitalism as a model is unsustainable, it doesn't negate the fact that capitalism is our starting point and we need a way to get from here to our better future. And even though it takes a very small percentage of people moving in the right direction, as you said, the majority of everyone else has to "get out of the way." And when the people with the most political power and monetary control are very much running full speed ahead in the wrong direction, it's difficult to wrap my head around how we'll manage any lasting positive change. Which isn't to contradict the power and importance in using a keepcup, but if Coca-Cola had never started mass producing in plastic instead of glass, it's not like we would've needed to make the choice. Sometimes I wish the rich *would* jettison themselves off to colonize mars so the rest of us might stand a fighting chance at surviving here 😂

[@kimberlysidor9427]

Ok I have to save this video so I can watch it a few more times. I don’t think it all sunk in, or I just need digest it for a while. I love how you make me think. 🥰

[@claraspringer6992]

Up to this point, I considered the phrase 'no ethical consumption under capitalism' as a way to criticize... you know, capitalism. It's not about consumption but about capitalism itself. Ultimately, we have to change the system if we want to make ethical consumption possible. That's what I thought this phrase was used for. Your video gave me two new perspectives: First, a lot of people seem to say it to not be held accountable for their consumption choices, which I find problematic. Second, there are lots of different ways to define 'ethical' and 'unethical'. So, thank you for this insight in your thoughts! In the end, people who want to change things to the better should stick together, no matter how small their actions seem to be.

[@a.e5220]

that hair length looks so good on you!

[@scandinavegan274]

Oh god thank you. I love this message. That comment is discouraging and I've seen it in so many videos lately. :( I know my consumption-pattern is not making a big dent by any means, but the shift I made means so much to me. I consume way less and what I buy is way more ethical in many ways. I have shifted to a long term perspective of how things age, how they impact the world in my hands and out of my hands. I also put in effort in to figuring out what makes me keep items for a long time and why, so when I buy I buy long term pieces. That Does matter. Even though it's not perfect or ideal. Making my first garment now as I'm watching this. Loving the process even though I've had to frog it a few times to make sure it's a piece I'll actually wear! 🐸

[@jsalnut]

10:51 Thanks for bringing up examples when its hard to make the ethical choice. Now in Guam we just had a typhoon and EPA put out an advisory not to drink the water. We've been buying bottled water and I feel horrible with every sip.

[@crushlibrary]

I love the idea that folks implementing change are people just trying to prepare for the future. I’ve never articulated it that simply but it hits the nail on the head!

[@holly5048]

bolf of you to assume i can come up with something cleverer. but omg i absolutely loved this video. the concept has been bothering me for a while too but i just never had the words or thougght far enough into it and you just hit the nail on the head and ran with it for the hole video

[@merryville11]

In the words of Marx "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" and in the words of Mary Oliver "You do not have to walk on your knees/for a hundred miles through the desert repenting."

[@Eliza-98]

What research says only 3.5% of a population needs to call for change for it to happen? For a person trying to crawl out of doomerism, it would be great to read up on this.

[@leenanorms]

It’s linked in the description :)

[@Theendlesstoil]

You have inspired me to a rant: I'm a fan, but I disagree with you. The phrase can be used in bad faith, it is by people who don't understand it context which is a rebuttal against: - ethical consumtion is our personal responsibility as consumers, not those in power - we can continue to have a version of capitalism, endless growth, endless consumption and be ethical and sustainable The phrase is a catch 22, to point out that ethical consumption is in full contradiction under a capitalist economy because the structure of how that economy works is based on owners taking workers surplus labor value,cutting costs, and exploiting the earths resources in the name of profit. While its used to justify over consumption, it also allows people who are trying to ethically consume to buy into and validating the idea that this phrase is against. For example: the majority the deforestation of the amazon is because of cattle agriculture since the 1960s. Soy is also a large agriculture crop, 82% of soy grown is for export in brazil, recently more deforestation has been indevelopment because of increased demand for meat alternatives in western countries. Additionally most meat/vegan alternatives that use oil as a replacement for butter or milk use palm oil which is also largely from deforestation in the amazon. So like is buying soy really the more ethical option here? When more people switch to eating soy do we just deforest more land and continue to destroy entire ecosystems? Do we use previously deforested land that was used for meat for soy and not try to rebuild the ecosystems we have detroyed? What you buy doesn't matter here because the food system under capitalism is the problem. Im putting the view out there because it is important to be honest and critical about ethical consumption to look to alternatives that have been tried before (for food systems check out havana urban agriculture, they litterally made the suburbs all have gardens instead of grass) or coming up with better solutions and prefiguring those solutions. ...Lmao I'm not very fun at parties, your videos inspire great conversation keep it up

[@ManonRhale]

Loved this Leena! This phrase has always bothered me and filled me with bad vibes, thanks for challenging it!