New Glucagon vs Insulin Data with Ben Bikman

[@debjordan4399]

Can't believe I missed this discussion for so many years. This is fabulous! Extremely helpful.

[@natalliask]

David , thanks so much for all you are doing , learning more from you and Ben than I did through all my formal medical training

[@Terri_2.0]

Anytime I see Ben Bikman's name pop up in my notifications, I stop what I'm doing if at all possible and want to watch right away (it also doesn't hurt to see the name, 'Dave Feldman' beside it---seriously, thanks so much, guys.

[@whosafeard8131]

Hear hear

[@alessandrabassi3461]

me too

[@mukr2914]

that's because he is a scientist on panel although rest of them have a scientific brain they will be underlooked by the scientific community.

[@twn5858]

Very intelligent man. I wish I had his IQ level.

[@kosuris]

All the parameters will improve if you follow a strict one meal a day (OMAD) or a two meals a day (TMAD) diet. In ketosis, OMAD or TMAD give quicker results and normal diet the results are slower. The deal is, with every meal a fixed amount of insulin is secreted in about 55 minutes, meaning you can eat all you want/need in 55 minutes. And again if you eat either any carb or protein after 55 minutes, again insulin is secreted. This secretion is insulin response to a meal which is up to 50 units, which is in response to carbs and/or protein, this is different from a baseline insulin that is always secreted. Individual to individual about 2 to 20 uUI/ML (units) of baseline insulin is secreted in a day. It cannot be changed. Baseline insulin is not responsible for insulin resistance. Insulin resistance is the product of the frequency of meals rather than amount of meal, either keto or normal meal. Between meals we can open our mouth for drinking water or to talk :). We can have black/bullet coffee, black/green tea, tender coconut water as much as we want in between the meals. No chewing anything, no sugar or milk or artificial sweeteners, which cause insulin response. I reversed my diabetes and hypertension over a period of 6 months, I also lost 25 KG weight. Good luck to all of you.

[@vcsmart4683]

Where is this insulin information obtained from? Especially, the insulin secretion window of every 55 minutes? Your diet ideas seem plausible and doable. I've been making a mistake to drink several cups of coffee with 2 tsp of coconut sugar outside of meal times, so thanks for pointing out to not drink calorie drinks outside of meal times. I wouldn't even do "bullet coffee" outside of meal times, because I just don't want the extra calories from fat outside of meal times either. Dietary high-fat meals do suppress blood flow for x-periods of time vs meals of less than 15% fat from calories, so I think clearing-out the fat by fasting or IF is important too.

[@kosuris]

Please watch this video this probably helps and also read the book written by Kraft. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rWHRh2CVmcmLpcU . The 55 mins and 2 meal normal Indian diet is propagated by Dr. Jagannath Dixit in India, he is a MD in community medicine and it is estimated more than 1 Million people have benefited in loosing weight and reversing diabetes in India effortlessly. Please check this video for his lecture kzbin.info/www/bejne/aHndn2ugrqaogNk

[@kosuris]

The book is " diabetes Epidemic & you" by Joseph R Kraft. You will be able to figure out 55 mins and 50 units. Good luck.

[@tristanhaggard]

What a fantastic surprise. Thanks gentlemen. Bout time for Dave to come back on the stream.

[@runeguldberg]

The great Gerald Reaven. Fig1 tells it all. Low insulin no sickness... Search: Insulin Resistance as a Predictor of Age-Related Diseases Francesco S. Facchini, Nancy Hua, Fahim Abbasi, Gerald M. Reaven

[@OnlyMyPOV]

You have a warrior spirit! I’m still learning after being diagnosed type 2 diabetic which I’m managing with ketogenic diet. Your data is so valuable!

[@robinbeers6689]

That presentation by Dr. Bikman at LC Breckenridge was what gave me the confidence to go all the way carnivore and stop slurping down so much coconut oil.

[@beatingobesity2410]

I was there Robin and his presentation blew me away. Then I noticed it wasn't just me, it had the same effect on pretty much everyone including the seasoned pros.

[@robinbeers6689]

@@beatingobesity2410 I'm looking forward to meeting him in Denver next week. When I saw his presentation, I was more or less carnivore but still thinking that I had to watch the protein levels so as to not get "kicked out" of ketosis. The insulin vs. glucagon info was the last piece of the puzzle for me that just went "click". I have great respect for Dr. Ron Rosedale's work but, on this point, I think he is just flat out wrong.

[@nealhamilton3881]

It's neat to see an engineer and scientists working together because they often see the issue differently and approach it differently which in the end works out the equation.

[@pratimputatunda9384]

Two of the best guys in this space out there. Refreshingly open minded and unbiased. (Bottom-line: the human species appropriate diet is Carnivorous. The more you deviate from it, the more you derange your hormonal balance!)

[@maarrsseelli]

World revolutionary scientists all star. God bless you guys

[@petercyr3508]

I just did a sort of a glucagon Kraft test with Dr Ali in Houston. Before 100g rice: insulin 8.6. Glucagon 46. Glucose 110. 90 min after: insulin 102. glucagon 43. glucose over 200. My normal diet is keto to carnivore OMAD. Usual post meal BG is under 120. Sometimes it goes down after eating.

[@clay.]

That was fascinating! I'm a type one diabetic, eating carnivore. I treat my hypoglycemia with dextrose powder. Once every 3 days I may need to eat about 5 or 10g... so nowhere near the amount you were consuming. Since I went meat only (apart from the obligatory dextrose) I have been wondering what/if any negative effects the dextrose have been having on me. I never imagined anyone would choose to add dextrose to their carnivore diet.

[@juliebutler8241]

See insulin suppression by Dr. Cywes. He has a carnivore patient drink a glass of raw milk with both with added cream add a few berries. I need the same thing and thrilled I have to add two of my favorite carbs!

[@ImplyDods]

Amazing talk. When I win the lottery I'll fund the experiments.

[@ruthanna4713]

So interesting. Thanks for consistent analysis all throughout :)

[@kostar500]

Im a type 2 diabetic. This video means so much to me. Thanks!

[@paskoh]

What an absolute blast to watch this. You guys are my heros

[@JCK363]

Dr Bikman's explanation of how gluconeogenesis cannot afford be halted in a fasted or low carb diet, resulting in flat insulin levels after protein intake was excellent news. I had a question whether the same would be true if one consumed a whey protein isolate shake immediately following weight /resistance training. I have heard that this type of protein shake was so quickly absorbed that it caused a massive insulin spike. Would that spike also be mitigated in a low or no carb individual?

[@jaesonv]

This has been a very, very informative vid here in KZbin. So much information I've been getting. Thank you, Dave and Ben! ;)

[@stephendudakov4565]

One point to make on glucose homeostasis is this: To lower glucose there is one hormone- insulin, To raise glucose there is Glucagon, Growth Hormone, Adrenaline, Noradrenaline, Cortisol. These hormone levels may affect the interplay of Glucagon response.

[@vcsmart4683]

With this many pathways to make more glucose, then our bodies are making it a priority to do this for probably many essential metabolic processes we don't even understand at our present levels of nutrition and physiology science.

[@1977Jackofalltrades]

Fascinating stuff! Thanks to both these titans of science!!!

[@corwynwarwaruk2141]

I wish we could get detailed blood tests in Canada. Might have to go to Montana for an NMR Lipoprotein blood test.

[@pohkeee]

Geek alert! This is so gratifying...so much more to tweak! Thanks!

[@katecollins3894]

I love that you guys have each other food for thought. I can't wait to see where this goes.

[@carnigoth]

That duo, man. Legends. Please make more meetings like this

[@paulinebailey9306]

Fascinating discussion. Your very flat CGM reading during Carnivore reminded me of something I’ve noticed while using a CGM the past few years. When I am in good ketosis, the CGM curve goes very flat, but the actual blood glucose meter readings, are not flat. For my own physiology I’ve come to the conclusion that the blood glucose, because of limited availability, is being spared from the interstitial fluid and retained more within the blood. Since CGMs measure interstitial glucose then approximate to blood glucose, the formulas used are presumably based on a glucose fuelled metabolism instead of a FFA / ketone fuelled metabolism. For my physiology the CGM is good to help with compliance and to notice when my body is behaving strangely, but less good to show actual blood glucose changes in response to meals when in nutritional ketosis. Although, for my physiology, a flat curve still shows I’m in good ketosis and not relying on glucose.

[@IndyRickHikes]

Pauline Bailey 🤔

[@sixthsense2939]

"Peter Cyr ​So liver keeps squirting glucose even tho my BG is already elevated. Then the glucose is not used because I am fat adapted and not stored because I am catabolic. Dave F. are you seeing this?" is there any more information on this issue? thanks.

[@chilsunlim3639]

Two of my favorite people 👍👍

[@nycok8213]

Low budget hurts. Also need to add ketone levels in mmol/L in the bottom row, where appropriate.

[@Masqueesha]

I'm always justifying my love of cheese!! 😂

[@karenlang3339]

So interesting. Thank you for making this information available.

[@zeroskate23]

I’m a type 1 diabetic that used to be a sugar burner. I inject all my insulin. The thing that bothers me about “Keto doctors” is that they all tell us we need to avoid insulin. But NONE of them give values for this. Since I inject all my insulin, I know EXACTLY how much insulin I receive each day. But despite this, I’m clueless as to whether that value is good or not. I found one page on the Internet called “understanding type 1 diabetes” saying the daily requirement of insulin for people is their weight in pounds, divided by 4. So I’m 5’ 11” and weigh 180lbs. So it says I should be at 45 units of insulin daily. But it doesn’t say how much insulin daily allows me to be in ketosis. And none of the “Keto teachers” actually give values for insulin. Or ACTUAL ways to determine how much insulin a person should receive each day, based on their age/height/weight to be in ketosis. If you told me values I should be striving for, I’d be very motivated to hit these values. An example would be...If you needed to be 1/8th of your body weight in insulin each day (so for me 180/8 is 22.5 units of insulin daily). Then I’d actually have a goal in mind that I’d need to hit. Currently on a good day my daily insulin is around 36 units. And I’m slowly improving. But I have no idea what I’m supposed to be striving for. I’d be very thankful if you gave values for how much insulin a person can receive each day and still be in ketosis. Because everyone still gets insulin each day, even if they don’t eat food. So how much insulin does a fasting person receive each day. I’d be soooooo happy if you (or anyone else knows the answer). Also I take 12 units lantus (slow acting insulin) before bed, and 12 units when I wake up. Then I just correct my blood sugar with novolog (fast acting insulin) when it rises above 120. So usually another 12 units of insulin to correct high blood sugars. These numbers all vary by a ton daily. Or if anyone could even just tell me their age/height/weight/how much insulin they take each day/and whether they’re in ketosis or not based on those numbers, that would be immensely helpful!!!

[@EvanHiltunenVisual]

Hey, I'm in the same boat as you are. I have "surgically induced diabetes", which is what I'm supposed to call it when speaking w various doctors, but am listed as T1 for insurance purposes. I'm "lower carb" and, generally, take in around 60 to 80 carb grams per day. I also work out intensely 5 - 6 days per week. My a1c is sitting around 6.0, but I would like to get it down a bit more. Although, my bigger concern is too much insulin. I take 30 units of long lasting insulin each night. Then fast acting during the day. My morning bg is usually 65 to 80 which is good. My problem is figuring out how much fast acting insulin I need when consuming protein. Insulin seems to be instrumental in the initiation of protein synthesis/processing, but is my basal insulin sufficient? I don't know so I've defaulted to one or two units of fast acting insulin for 30 grams of protein consumed. Not sure if it is needed, or useful, and would love to learn more!

[@the_famous_reply_guy]

Start fasting and test if your beta cells will produce any level of insulin. My body produces plenty insulin but I keep it low by avoiding sugar, carbs and multiple feed windows a day.

Hi Dave, great talk with Ben. And what about ketone levels in your tests?? It could play also some role in "glucagon game". 🤔😉

[@onecompass7290]

Moe, Larry Cheese! Whoop Whoop Whoop 🤣🤣 Love this video!

[@damg2762]

Dave, Ben, according ding your studies and experience and watching your podcast, what is the right average in the population of insulin.- I am very confuse with the different parameters provided by different labs? Thank you in advance

[@DodjiSeketeli]

Metformin inhibits hepatic neoglucogenesis. Could it be that it also inhibits glucagon receptors? I am talking about the challenge case here, as the person takes metformin.

[@kathleenmurphy6059]

I would also appreciate comment on statin effects!

[@scott2724]

That was something I wondered about also

[@YVM3311]

Wish you two had another interview together!

[@bidnow2946]

Dave: I see something different in the data. What if you convert both Insulin and Glucagon to ng/dL and do your analysis from there? (Insulin value times 4.7 and Glucagon value divided by 10.) You will get a different I:G relationship which I found more telling. However, perhaps the most interesting would be to add the Insulin and Glucagon numbers together to in effect determine the hormonal load. When you compare the hormonal load against the various diets (keto, loose keto, carnivore, white bread, dextrose, SAD) there is a definite correlation between the diets and the total hormonal load. To me, that seems to fit with your theory pretty well.

[@pulmo1]

Bid Now I am with you but convert to pmol/L as I recall Unger did so many years ago. The you just multiply the insulin by 7 and it’s even faster. If we don’t agree on some standard way of expressing the IRG confusion will ensue.

[@pulmo1]

Incidentally your hormonal metabolic load concept is very interesting. Thank you.

[@АлександрНиколаев-ш2л]

First, Dave, thank you for your work. God knows how much money and time it take. I really appreciate your decision to become a real scientist. These findings of glucagon...could I ask you for a little bit of generalization/conclusion? Second, thank you for having Ben. The Last year Breckenridge talks (both of yours) were just awesome. Having them both translated and adapted to Russian I let people here know what the real science and the true scientist do mean

[@natalliask]

It seems that IGF 1 correlates the best with the diet change

[@maschinenraum]

that is confusing for me. at 26:00 you show the graph of the glucose monitor. and for me that is not something new that after huge protein intake the glucose could stay the same. but it does not allow to draw conclusions about insulin. insulin could spike really high which drives glucagon very low and kicks you out of ketosis. you can't see that in the blood glucose measurement if the timing of gluconeogenesis fits perfect to the glucose uptake of the cell. i made the discovery regarding my body that after a heavy weekend of binge drinking alcohol my insulin resistance is much higher and that a higher load of protein kicks me out of ketosis. i can very carefully track my macros and see that i am not above 20g of carbs but 100g of protein or more has a similar effect. in my mind i also treat it as half carbs. today i do a fat fast with just "trace protein" that might add up to 20g of protein plus about 15g of carbs per day and probably more than 200g of fat. i do this to reduce the insulin resistance as fast as possible - probably the closest to a water fast. and in the next days i carefully increase my protein slightly for just one meal to reach the protein synthesis leucine threshold (25-30 g in one meal). and after a few days i might increase protein again. the amount of protein makes a huge difference in hunger over the day. so with high insulin resistance i can't get in deep ketosis with higher protein and therefor i am more hungry and then i eat more. and of course i do not want to eat more because i am still 20kg over weight (after already losing 25kg on keto) but i don't want to be hungry either. so the only alternative that i have is a fat fast to address the insulin resistance first and after that weight loss will follow. regarding the idea of glucagon resistance and the not so beautiful numbers i think that there maybe is a longer period needed to adjust to the different diets. switching over to a different diet could bring in some nasty alterations of the lab numbers that need time to stabilize? similar to fat adaption when going on keto for the first time? (dr phinney once showed a graph of the ph level in the urine where you could see the fat adaption process of around 12 week until the ph level normalized)

[@pulmo1]

maschinenraum nice point. However would brief insulin spikes drive you out of ketosis taking into account the half life of insulin and BHB.

[@maschinenraum]

@@pulmo1 the total amount of insulin depends on the insulin resistance. people with high insulin resistance can have five times the amount of insulin in their system. that also means that glucagon is very low and then the fat cells do not release the stored fat into the system.

[@joefiganootz2425]

This is all great if you are normal and healthy. What do you do if you have T2 and are also Glucagon resistant?

[@murphydca]

Dave, have you tried adding 2-3 grams of L-Carnitine to see the effect on triglycerides? I'd be curious if that helps moderate the increases on a diet like bacon and butter. I'd expect the L-carnitine to help moderate that increase.

[@kicknadeadcat]

Dave, have you taken into consideration the metforman and statins. With his high glucagon And insulin..

[@katherinestout6928]

What is the significance of IGF-1. Thanks for all this deep data

[@ustinia5717]

Is there any machine I can purchase for home measurements of insulin? Even if expensive?

[@pulmo1]

Wonderful discussion. The IRG corrected to both being in the pg/mL unit is of interest to me as per recovery of metabolic health and correlation with actual weight reduction. Does not appear to be a tight relationship to me sos far. Could the the dynamics of the IRG drive the wt reduction versus and the singularity of the insulin as the primary driver of metabolic health parameters( TG:HDL ratio, CRP, GGT and others)? We are getting closer to a more solid scientific basis for the carb restricted dietary movement.

[@pulmo1]

Incidentally the insulin measured in mu/mL x 7 converts the insulin to pmol/L units so we can stay in line with Unger earlier work.

[@blackbirdsinging6264]

What if the triglyceride climb on the bacon and butter results is the dairy component butter? Ive dropped all dairy on carnivore and just feel better but nothing dramatically discernable as blood tests not readily accessible here in U.K.as protocols outside of guidelines are unsupported so n=1 anecdoote on our own here so important to learn the science before diving in especially if ill!

[@edmistarka6303]

Looking forward to every post!

[@swimfit57]

Great podcast

[@irvpaton8626]

Per Joseph Kraft, MD studies, and per HOMA2 model an insulin of 7 and a glucose of 85 are just where they should be for a healthy person, and I"ll add that will only be for someone not on a keto diet. So, your friend with a 7 is fine and should not be lower.

[@ALIMOHSIN]

What is the best time, in relation to food intake, to have Insulin, Glucagon, and C Peptide tests done?

[@mikieemiike3979]

I want to learn more about glucagon resistance.

[@bme7491]

Glucagon resistance can be from NAFLD.

[@juanmf]

@Dave have you measured what’s the max amount of sugar that wouldn’t stop gluconeogenesis? Practical application: full carnivore plus a 10 oz latte and or a bite (5gr of sugar) of dark chocolate (around 23GI). As one’d get stuffed with protein, is this added sugar enough to spike insulin (worsen by the amplifying effect of protein)

[@litabelaqua]

Discarded hypodermic needles used to be a sign of a drug addict, nowadays its a sign of ocd blood testing lol. Just joking, Dave you are a hero

[@tricky778]

If a batch comes back weird, rerun all batches multiple times, enough to know the reliability of the lab process.

[@beatingobesity2410]

Sign me up, I'll do the test!

[@rhondalynn1599]

I would love to be in on that study if it happens! I could be one of the IR people :)

[@bobcocampo]

What happens to the liver if there is too much glucagon? Is it as bad sa Hyperinsulinimia?

[@ellenorbjornsdottir1166]

I think the glucagon resistant person is being messed up in part by his Statin use. It's possible that he has some other dysregulation that cannot be explained by environment.

[@bobbythomas5357]

about the carnivore diet, you did a continuous insulin testing that was stable?

[@davidj.kleinsasser8673]

Oh man, I can't avoid cheese either... LOVE it!

[@sandrabentley1420]

Excellent, thank you.

[@christineritchie8289]

Where do I sign up to be a Kraft Test&glucagon guinea pig?

[@tricky778]

Have you validated your continuous glucose monitor so you know that flat carnivore report is true?

[@SchmittsPeter]

Great talk. I'm a big Bikman-fan XD .

[@Meat_Skraps]

11min mark, would those numbers be impacted in a relevant way to the effects of long term conflicting Randle Cycle/Effect? Not quite sure of the correct way to phrase that question.

[@mauriciofernandez6879]

summary...pls

[@cryptomaniac967]

So, what's the bottom line...?

[@runeguldberg]

Dave. Take that back and run it again.....

[@kathya1956]

Where is Bikman’s lab?

[@Labodyjr2]

BYU

[@albertouribe435]

Thank you

[@KKKKAAAARRRRYYYYNN]

Good video. FYI A little hard for newbies to understand because there are many times when you both leave off the end of a sentence because the other guy already knows what you're going to say. Many of us don't know what was supposed to be verbalized at the end of the sentence since we don't have the metabolic understanding that you do. Many times the word that you left out was the key to understanding the whole point so I was left in confusion.

[@petercyr3508]

Oh no! Ben dont encourage him with free labs!

[@swimfit57]

My whole family loved cheese and I'm was the only one that didn't. And they would eat steak tar tar ground sirloin raw🤮

[@owenkelchner5387]

I would totally do it!!!

[@mukr2914]

Dave Feldman I wonder why none of the big scientists hires you in their group and makes it deeper research which will eventually shine them as well. you and Ivor doing a good job although your background isn't science.

[@peacenow6618]

What does the emblem in the background Ben? Is it a "far right" emblem?

[@ellenorbjornsdottir1166]

acute temporary diabetes

[@steveanston4906]

unbearable

[@makinggreatbread]

Cheese!!! I'm not alone!

[@swimfit57]

Your arm must look like your a jucky

[@swimfit57]

Junky

[@sslilac]

Somebody plz translate this video in English 😢

[@hikerJohn]

A summery would be nice.

[@pulmo1]

sslilac my sympathy to you. Back to the books for you.