New Lore About Sonic Frontiers Final Boss Has Fans MAD!

[@SonicHubYT]

Does this new information change your opinion on The End? Personally, I was satisfied with the conclusion of Frontiers Update 3, so I don’t see the need for The End to return.

[@SpeederLight]

Yeah I was satisfied but also hoping we could see it return in a future sonic game like a reincarnation or something 😅

[@GAMM_SAGE]

im sad honestly i thought the end would be like Morpho knight from Kirby never being the main villain but coming back to try to destroy sonic

[@Hey_Childish]

The End is literally a thing that just wants to simply consume and destroy. You don't interview animals and ask them why they ate another animal. They did it cause they were hungry! That's it.... That would be goofy af to continue to make games about The End when that was its only purpose. Not every villain needs some deep philosophical reason as to why they do evil shit lmfao. I'm with people that wanna know more about the ancients but sometimes things aren't meant to be as deep as people make it out to be. TL;DR: Moon bad, Sonic good....

[@mariobroultimate1808]

@@Hey_Childish Some people are just terrible people. We don't always need a reason for their crimes. They're evil, and they need to pay for their crimes. That's that.

[@jordandiprizio7253]

Hey sonichub when will you do no jump sonic superstarsstars and Mario wonder

[@comicfan1324]

I get why having the end resemble the moon may seem anticlimactic, but if someone who appreciates thematic purpose, I think the design is actually quite clever. For as long as stories have been told, the moon has been made to represent the ending of a story as the sun rises on a new day. So I’d say it’s quite fitting that THE END would be represented this way. Not to mention that since it has absolutely no facial features, it’s a bit more unsettling in the way that there is nothing recognizable as a living creature from it beyond its dialogue.

[@void_summoner_89]

Is it possible for the black arms to work for the end?

[@myleswelnetz6700]

@user-jr7un4pf5z Probably not. If anything, they, especially Shadow, would most likely form a militia and set a perimeter against Sonic.

[@speedude0164]

I especially love how this is represented in The Final Horizon with the dark moon floating above you during the final boss. The original ending heavily implies that not only is The End not at full power when we fight it, but a fully powered End is pretty much unbeatable. With this in mind, its presence basically symbolises the looming apocalypse. You see that thing above you, and you know the end is near.

[@whiten4635]

@@void_summoner_89 I hope not, I think the end works best as a simple force of nature it simply serves the purpose of being a neutralizer in the cosmic existence

[@evandoubenmier7914]

I really like The End; I like how manipulative and powerful it is as a villain. Also, I think the simplicity of its design is what makes it, in my opinion, brilliant. Other than representing death, I like to think that the moon is an inevitable thing, and associating The End with that is what makes this character even more ominous. (It was also really cool to see The End hovering above the planet during Update 3's final battle.)

[@guyonasofa2318]

I always got an eldrich unknowable feeling to The End, with it seemingly originating from the cosmos and being practically unbeatable, so I like how The End is just a purple moon that can just summon attacks and projectiles from literally nowhere because it leans into that unknowable eldrich entity feeling. Where are these attacks coming from? How is it talking and concious if it's just a purple moon? It purposefully doesn't makes sense, and that's what makes it so interesting to me. I just wish we got a proper titan style Moon fight where it leaned into that unknowable nature more, maybe with it shapeshifing and stuff, but im more than happy with what we got.

[@bladewolfdarknight1605]

I think the major issue regarding this topic is not why The End is not coming back, but rather how. The boasting only works when you show the villain's ego actually crush itself with the realization of "Oh shit, i actually didn't plan that, i fucked up". We didn't get anything like this. By keeping The End silent throughout the entire final boss fight in Final Horizon and not showing it actually panic or sound scared literally undermines the whole concept of it. THE END FUCKED AROUND AND WAS ABOUT TO FIND OUT. But nah. Just clap dem purple cheeks and let it go boom. Don't explain in-game. Don't let it have a final dialogue. Just kill it. I'm not mad that The End is not coming back. I'm mad that they wrote it off in the worst way possible.

[@whiten4635]

Because the end has no reason to fear it's demise.the end isn't really dead. The end is personification of death it acts a neutralizer/order to the cosmic existence. While yes the end was defeated and this incarnation will probably never comeback it doesn't mean it was outright lost. The end said that some form of the end will come and get sonic, and it isnt entirely wrong. One of the many forms of death is natural causes, and seeing as how sonic canonically does age, it's pretty safe to assume that sonic will eventually succumb to natural causes eventually proving the ends point.

[@JasLamArr91]

The monologue was the best part of fighting The End. So I was a little disappointed in Update 3 when The End didn’t reveal what it truly looks like and that we didn’t fight it directly.

[@LateNightHalo]

TBH the End never really bothered me too much because of the role it played in the story of the Ancients. It wasnt really "Sonic's final boss" it was the final boss for the Ancients. It was their antagonist and Sonic more or less stumbled into it. Interestingly, the Moon is often seen as a symbol of Death or "conclusion" in many cultures so Sonic seeing it as a ghostly Moon-like figure is pretty eerie. Its made even creepier by seeing it in the background of Sonic Superstars... it may have just been an easteregg but it also foreshadows the battles ahead for Sonic.. Sega will never get too grim with Sonic but a manifestation of Death hovering above his younger self is a pretty bleak visual. It's vagueness is definitely disappointing as someone who loves Sonic lore but I also think its a bit interesting. Like the Chaos Emeralds-Its this magical, mysterious thing from outer space.. Who knows what else is up there in the stars? It makes the world of Sonic feel bigger.

[@RosheenQuynh]

Fancy seeing you here

[@Slimeonian]

How can people claim The End is a fraud when we saw all throughout the story what it’s capable of? Like we saw it use one, ONE laser to destroy the ancients home planet. Then it not only fought ALL 4 TITANS at once, but actually overpowered them. We know that Sonic is getting stronger through the years, as shown in Generations when base form Sonic beat Perfect Chaos, despite needing to go Super in Adventure. And even with Sonic getting stronger each game he 1: needed Super Sonic to fight the titans, (The End fought all 4 titans at once remember) And 2: Sonic needed to use the Cyber Energy ON TOP of Super Sonic to finally defeat The End, and you can see Super Sonic is physically beat up and exhausted after the fight. Even if The End doesn’t LOOK Imposing, it most definitely is, and is by far the strongest enemy Sonic has faced. The only reason Solaris is number 1 is cuz Time/Space abilities are overpowered af. But in terms of Raw Power, yeah The End is the strongest

[@SonicHubYT]

Yeah based off the power scaling I tried to do, I think it’s reasonable to assume the claim that The End is the second most powerful boss sonic has faced is true.

[@rimurutempest9733]

@@SonicHubYT you mean abilitys not power scaling bc raw power goes to end base off sonic own power scaling lore bc the sonic rush adventure egg wizard debatable stronger than 06 final boss bc dimensions so ye terms raw power end strongest boss

[@ИльфатГалимов-э6ф]

Do you mean that Solaris lives in the past, present, and future due to its abilities of space and time to transcend The End?

[@rimurutempest9733]

@@ИльфатГалимов-э6ф yes abilitys wise he's talking about

[@kjdakid23]

🎯

[@charliejackson6535]

The thing is the End is an ever changing force. We know it caused a whole civilization to flee from their own planet while it was on its warpath. It’s formless as far as we know and just uses objects as avatars. I’m hoping if it shows up again it actually it shows it’s true form.

[@ganges2264]

there can literally never be any piece of sonic media that doesn't contradict something in the lore.

[@Electrical010]

I just think The End wasn't used properly. They represented this threat as a planet killer, it has taken lives and from visions have shown to torment the ancients and defeated them. Even with The Final Horizon I felt like there was something missing. Sonic never actually gets to fight The End one on one, he only fought Supreme and threw itself at it. Making it look like a joke when it was implied throughout the story this threat wasn't. It coming back is a bad story decision, recurring villains is Eggman's thing, not for gods. I just wished they did a little more with The End before they killed it.

[@reggielacey2235]

He's well beyond a planet killer. If he's the 2nd strongest then he's stronger then the time eater who is a multiversal killer

[@Maroz4106]

The end is stronger than Polaris and its been stated that this incarnation may have failed but another will come back.

[@Electrical010]

@@Maroz4106 Flynn said The End is dead and gone. There isn't going to be a reincarnation.

[@sonicdml4175]

My guess is it probably used all its power controlling Supreme, and wasn't at full power to begin with.

[@kevinm.5951]

I don't personally think the moon version of the end would need to come back but having the end be omnnipresent, lurking in the shadows would've been cool Ians point about otjer final bosses not returning is a weird one because all those bosses had conclusions that made a fine point on the boss not returning. I don't know how the end was defeated in the final horizon (i'll spoil that for myself soon) but the original ending left a lot to be desired. For 10 months, nonody really knew whether or not the end was truly defeated and now after thus confir.ation, it kind of feels like a surprise rug pull

[@AnimalXing]

The issue is that Ian Flynn didn’t need to say this. At all. I understand he was probably getting messages about it, but Sega could have quietly never brought The End back and no discourse would have happened. This is not something the general public, or Sonic Twitter, needed to know

[@legendaresn6983]

Its Ian Flynn not Sega, a dark entity that's not eggman that comes back in different forms is what Sonic needs right now. To the guy claiming that it would undermine the story, Adam in record of ragnarok lost his fight against Zeus yet he managed to make humanity come together through that.

[@MrNeedleM0use]

Ngl I like the boss. The thing is, apparently depending who you are, you see the end differently. So Sonic saw the end completely differently to us

[@Natezilla_2]

It's also supposed to look like someone's worse fear depending on that, so to Sonic, the End was a giant body of water lol 😂

[@TheAlphazoneYT]

@@Natezilla_2 Not necessarily. Him being afraid of water was exclusive to TV shows. Sonic doesn’t really seem afraid of water in the games especially since many levels involve him directly jumping into it.

[@Natezilla_2]

@@TheAlphazoneYT Yeah, I said that more as a joke I know he has worse fears than water

[@wolef3344]

I will not rest until the line *"How would a being that knows no fear envision its very root"* is used.

[@DSmith3279]

I saw the title and immediately thought, "Sonic fans? Mad about something?? That's totally unheard of. 🙄" lmao

[@forever_sonic]

One thing i noticed in the ends updated final boss, is that supreme seems so different in its actions and such once the end kind of puppets the titan. in the fight, supreme attacks, moves around, and in general he does things with barbarian and beastly-like actions. (like how it charges at sonic and grabs him in that one qte, how his idle animations are holding itself together on multiple limbs, heck even the fact that it grows multiple arms) this persona change kind of makes you question the type of mentality and style the end has, because supreme wasn't as ruthless as he was before the end took over it.

[@raysonicfan1.207]

Of course there mad

[@Jaylobeans]

*Their

[@tmak7345]

@@Jaylobeansthey’re

[@CheeseStuff]

⁠@@EF2011lol yeah, and good thing that nobody calls it X

[@yoshi3187]

They never are happy

[@i_like_videogames9517]

Technically, the only reason for why Solaris took three super forms to beat was because he was in three different timelines at the same time. If Super Sonic had that same ability, then Solaris would have been done for. So, I personally think that The End is the strongest boss in all of Sonic.

[@amarachibigelow8178]

I thought that after the shooting game the moon was going to open up and and reveal some kind of monster. Greatest disappointment of the century😢

[@TheLedezmas]

The Final Boss Fight in Frontiers I would call a brutal but kind of cool boss in the entire story. The difficulty is the only problem with the fight, and I remember Chris AKA SonicHub getting annoyed with this boss, and I don't blame him, it's rigged. It's so weird that we barely kniw anything about The End, because all we know what it was trying to do and who they are. The OG version of the Boss Fight was too hard, but with the Final Horizon update it made the ending a lot better. They definitely cooked with it. It'd be cool if this entity in future Sonic games and possibly find out more lore.

[@duduvec5971]

The good old sonic fans war. Never change sonic fans (please change tho)

[@SonicHubYT]

(Please change NOW)

[@masterofgamesbrian7058]

(We don't need any more wars)

[@ZeroYami]

the guy from 10:11 is my best friend and it was so jarring to see his account randomly pop up 💀

[@AAhmou]

The End should be kept as a long running villain. Like now after that battle, it has got a shapeshifting weakened form doing background manipulation.

[@knowingjordankid]

The End was decent in Sonic Frontiers and the final Boss in Frontiers a lot of fans hated the final boss Fight in Frontiers. The end was a pretty strong Sonic enemy. The end definitely has a great backstory in Sonic Frontiers. The final boss fight I didn’t like. This Sonic lore about the end is crazy. I definitely wish in the original Frontiers we could just fight with Sonic abilities in the original frontiers Game but then the final boss fight is just a midi game. The eastern egg in Sonic Superstars with the end is not true. It seems like the end is gone forever and we won’t see the end again. Solaris was definitely a very strong Sonic enemy in the Sonic Franchise. I understand this Sonic lore now. Great video Chris)

[@PauloH100]

The End, in idea, is one of Sonic's greatest villains of all time. He is the manifestation of death and the end of all things, his sole will and purpose being to eliminate the Chaos inherent in life and bring order to the universe. He is mainly an antithesis to the Chaos Emeralds themselves and their powers, and at the same time, he is the one who indirectly brought the emeralds to Sonic's world, he is mainly responsible for practically everything that happened in the franchise. Edit: The problem according to Flynn's statement, is not The End returning, because it really shouldn't return, this was the conclusion and liberation of the Ancients. The problem is that he says that The End's entire speech is just an "evil villain's speech" and takes away all the weight that this villain can have

[@PauloH100]

His biggest problem is that his battle is a total break from what the game had built up to that point, not to mention that the predecessor Boss (Supreme) is literally the weakest boss in the game, and right after that you have a Minigame💀. Imagine how incredible a battle would be against that massive Moon that we saw a little of its scale in Update 3, where we actually attacked it with Super Sonic and even controlled the Supreme Titan in some decent way

[@giovannanakata8083]

What disappointed me wasn't the fact that he wasn't coming back But Ian said his whole speech was pure bullshit.

[@twotoned_echos]

​@@giovannanakata8083yeah no he really dropped the ball with that. Personally I feel that the End could've served as an introduction to much larger, still-existing or active threats in the series's universe. Heck, a lot of the lore Frontiers dropped can- and hopefully will be- used for the next mainline entry in the franchise, but wow. As much as I like the concept of reincarnating bosses and having major bosses share ties with past bosses (Kirby is goated for that reason), I can understand why Ian and Sonic Team don't want to take the series in that route for the time being... but they really shouldn't have axed this character by saying "haha, the cool speech was just a dumb monolouge to make them look scary" because it makes they look like they're incapable of introducing interesting concepts into the story even though the majority of the game is proof thst they can. TLDR; The ending for The End didn't feel like the end but apparently it is the end and it's disappointing how it ended😂😂😂

[@envynoson]

The End not returning is wasted potential. The writers could easily give The End a new smaller form. It would honestly be stupid not to give The End a new form.

[@adamtaurusragnathebloodedg8407]

What could of been nice if Cyber Sonic went into THE END moon core and fought THE TRUE END inside of it.

[@orealz]

I believe fans wanted a sonic unleashed/ 06 style final boss gameplay wise. Controlling both the supreme Titan and Super Sonic switching off.

[@RaijinRain]

The End: I am almighty. I am Infinite. Solaris: Wanna see a trick? *Divide by 0*

[@cheetahofthewind13]

Also dark giga: bitch im the one who's meant to destory this planet, go to the next one over

[@Hazcaz20]

So, in the main story, it says to destroy the "fake moon," so does that mean like the end's true form is not, like a giant big the cat inspired asteroid. Or do they mean a fake moon as in its just not the real moon?

[@bichoestranhocomcaudas6543]

I don't agree with the end being weaker than Solaris. Like,The End was literally the only villain to actually knock the super form out of Sonic,and it wasnt just the super form,it was a powered up with cyber energy super form. Say what you want about Solaris but super Sonic was actually doing damage to him while The End was actually overwhelming Super Sonic. The End has shown better feats with offense and defense and the only argument i can have for Solaris is that it is kinda of immortal,but immortality does not make you the strongest (try imaging a immortal version of yourself vs Prime Mike Tyson,i'm sure immortality won't help you out)

[@SonicHubYT]

Knuckles: "Am I Joke to you?" All jokes aside you might be on to something. But also it really depends, how strong is super sonic 2 compared to 3 super hedgehogs? Solaris's very existence caused time/dimensions to not even exist, and the end of the world. So I do think it makes sense when they say that Solaris is the strongest.

[@jschannel6319]

Despite Sega not wanting to admit it, power creep does exist in Sonic. And Sonic gets progressively stronger throughout the games. Biggest example being Generations Sonic being able to beat Perfect Chaos without his super form. And when Forces came out, there were statements by Sega themselves saying that Infinite was Sonic’s strongest enemy or adversary. Which obviously puts him above the likes of Solaris, Alf Layla Wa Layla, Dark Queen Merlina, (yes, the Storybook games are canon due to Generations.) and the Time Eater.

[@bichoestranhocomcaudas6543]

@@SonicHubYT that is the only question mark,how much powerful is Sonic who fought The End. The thing we have to remember is that Sonic is always getting stronger (love or hate it,Sonic Forces has one of the biggest examples of it,as Infinite did state that Sonic gets stronger at an alarming rate) so in theory the Super Sonic that fought The End is way more powerful than the one that fought Solaris and he still had no hope of winning at all as we seen he can't defend himself against the most basic attacks from The End. As far as we know,Super Sonic is superior to Solaris when it comes to power because he did beat him (as did Shadow and Silver in their respective time periods) but couldn't really kill him due to his immortality. So if i'm not tripping it goes like Solaris

[@tailsfan10]

@@SonicHubYTI think the thing with Knuckles is that Sonic had only just used Super Sonic for the second time, so he's not used to maintaining the form after a major hit. Knuckles is indeed a strong individual, but at the time Sonic wasn't at full potential like in Frontiers

[@rimurutempest9733]

@@jschannel6319 exactly!

[@pokebattery4083]

It's not The End, it's the conclusion.

[@Skypatroller_BenCD]

Personally i really like The End cause having a representation of the Grim Reaper in the Sonic's lore is kinda amazing if you think about it

[@ashemabahumat4173]

Its Azathoth tho, not the grin reaper

[@Skypatroller_BenCD]

@@ashemabahumat4173 who the heck is Azathot?

[@Spazy912]

@@Skypatroller_BenCDI do not know

[@ashemabahumat4173]

@@Skypatroller_BenCD this is actually kinda depressing...

[@Skypatroller_BenCD]

@@ashemabahumat4173 why?

[@jhonjoestar-bg8mg]

for me I actually love the end, yes the boss fight in the main game could've been taken to a much more satisfying direction that we all would've wanted, yes the design could've been something more eldritch calamity but everything surrounding the end is in my opinion amazing the fact that it's the physical representation of death in this universe is really cool i think it's better then dark giga in my opinion, I love the fact that it's appearance changes depending on the person perception of death, the monologue is genuinely interesting in both English and Japanese's I feel like everything surrounding the end makes me forgive the design and fight we get with it in fact the fight and design majorly grown on me overtime I think their good although I would've like something eldritch horror like but I love the end and I'm perfectly content with it not appearing in the future although i feel like the end has major potential still like there were some implications that the end wasn't gone only its body but I get that Sega doesn't want to bring it back but i love this purple rock orb of death and no one will stop me.

[@Overdrive000]

Good for you

[@FirestoneAnimation]

3:07 Technically anytime he interacts with the cyber cages. Every time he breaks open the cages, you see the digital energy go into Sonic and his friends acknowledge it. Especially seeing as Cyberspace is optional I mean yeah the end coming back would undermine the ending but the end itself was undermined day one. Complete miss.

[@EdgardoJCruz-dk5kv]

The “blue one” is obviously Bjg Little Planet from Sonic CD & Sonic 4 Episode II/Mania/Metal. As for The End itself, it stated has been watching over Sonic & co for a long time defeat machines and Gods that were mighty. So what happens in Sonic Superstars? You defeat both powerful giant mechs and a freaking DIMENSIONAL DRAGON that sealed away for its destructive power by another ancient civilization. That also needed Super Sonic & Trip to defeat. This marks the first time in the Classic era that the Sonic cast defeated an eldritch being BEFORE the events of Sonic Adventure onwards sets off the modern era trend of doing so. Since Superstars is set FAR in the past, this means that THIS event is the catalyst going forwards is where it truly begins to keep on eye on Sonic’s exploits.

[@SonicHubYT]

Well I think the end says “I saw your mind in my prison” so the end analyzes all of this while sonic is running through cyber space

[@tailsfan10]

You spoiled the final boss, thanks

[@HaydenBlox]

I feel like fans are always mad I don't think there ever happy sadly

[@isolated_illust]

Yeah, the downside of liking Sonic is that you're always lumped together with one of the worst toxic communities ever.

[@magical_pixie_horse7346]

Ian Flynn wasn't involved in superstars nor is he in charge of the narrative, so forgive me for not taking his word for it that that moon isn't the one that The End possessed or that it's dead. It's a formless entity that can transfer to different types of physical matter. I'd rather hear from Izuka about it. I'm not mad, I'm just not taking Flynn seriously.

[@SonicHubYT]

Yeah there’s no way that they didn’t sneak that in as an Easter egg reference idgaf lmao. I mean lore wise yes it’s not the end, but that doesn’t mean it’s not an Easter egg

[@magical_pixie_horse7346]

​@@SonicHubYTyeah. And why is anyone taking Flynn seriously? He already pointed out that he's not in charge of the lore or narrative, so his word on X, formally known as Twitter, means almost nothing.

[@SonicHubYT]

@@magical_pixie_horse7346 Im pretty sure he is on the sonic "lore council" or whatever so he relays from SEGA whatever the current stance or position is on a given topic. He might not be in charge, but he is merely the messenger on the currently in-flux sonic lore.

[@magical_pixie_horse7346]

@@SonicHubYT hence why I said, almost nothing.

[@Hey_Childish]

That's true, but he's definitely on their payroll to make sure the continuity is together. Just logically speaking, why would it be moving around in a game that is technically in the past (Well, in the past from Sonic's perspective since The End is tens of thousands of years old) and it's been imprisoned for YEARS? They wouldn't hire people like him or others as lore managers if what they said doesn't hold water. This is more than likely a easter egg.

[@nithinshakthithiruppathi4028]

I mean Super Sonic did have to solo Solaris. Everyone had to fight Solaris by themselves. The End could be stronger.

[@cool7492]

Perhaps the purple moon being present in Superstars is simply The End's body, or shell. As in, its consciousness was sealed in the Supreme Titan in cyberspace, and its shell was left orbiting the Earth all that time. That may have been what the developers were going for. The flaw with this theory is that it contradicts the statement about The End looking different to each person.

[@mechashadow]

That claim does'nt make sense as 'what the developers were going for'. They've clearly stated that Classic Sonic is in an alternate dimension in Forces. They could go back to saying Classic Sonic is in the past as well since they want to unite the lore now, I suppose. But the point is, The End exists in Superstars as his lore is always linked to the Chaos Emerald no matter the Timeline. So no, he was'nt eradicated in Classic's timeline unlike Modern's which is why there are some traces of him in the Final Superstars Boss. Ian Flynn has lied and covered up things before so I dunno..but he seems like up to his usual diversionary tactics just to stir up the community again. Not the first, won't be the last.

[@KOTSOSMC2002]

@@mechashadow That plot point in Forces has been addressed as a miscommunication/mistranslation many times. TailsTube says Classic and Modern are just past and future and the same timeline, Generations says Classic and Modern are just past and future and the same timeline, Sonic Adventure has CD flashbacks, Sonic Prime has Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles flashbacks, IDW and Frontiers reference Classic a bunch of times. Classic has always been the same as Modern.

[@mechashadow]

@@KOTSOSMC2002 Sounds more like a retcon but I can accept that, still does'nt change my theory for the most part. The reason I call it a retcon is because Iizuka has been caught explaining Classic Sonic as a split timeline from Generations for Forces in interviews for the gaming press a couple of times but I honestly prefer this retcon tbh.

[@KOTSOSMC2002]

@@mechashadow Since Sonic Adventure, the first Modern game ever made, had a direct Sonic CD flashback I'd hardly call it a retcon. If anything the line from Forces is the retcon, which has since been addressed. Aka the retcon has been retconned and we're back on track!

[@mechashadow]

@@KOTSOSMC2002 That's fair. But that's exactly why I'm happy they retconned the retcon cause it was stupid. I can even get on board with a good retcon but they're hard to find.

[@AndrewR-y5u]

Sonichub the only reason why sonic fans wanna to play the final update is to have a better final boss battle and a new true ending and a new sonic form like this what this whole wait was about💯👍

[@DarkFrozenDepths]

Also, they did hype up The End so much with all the dialogue as well. Regardless of what Ian Flynn said, there was pieces in the original story that really hinted at The End returning. I personally don't care if it returns or not, but can't deny that it's looking like another retcon and I don't blame people for being mad about that. I can agree that the fanbase gets too toxic at times, but given some of the stuff that was literally in the game, you also can't blame the people that thought The End would return.

[@lilsoonerfaninmo]

I think whether or not The End is the strongest or not kinda just boils down to how strong Super Sonic 2 is, and whether or not it's as strong as 3 Super forms, if not stronger Cause, unless I'm mistaken, Solaris didn't have any means to actually HURT Super Sonic the same way The End did Obviously there's no real way to determine that at this point, but it's definitely something to consider

[@nullandvoid7524]

Phase 2 Solaris was capable of knocking away rings from all 3 of them.

[@lilsoonerfaninmo]

@@nullandvoid7524 Ah, so it does Genuine mistake on my part So at the very least, they'd be comparable

[@sonicdml4175]

@@nullandvoid7524 The End can straight up force Super Sonic 2 out of his Super form, and make him lose max rings with every hit

[@sonicdml4175]

Solaris was never as powerful as the Super trio, they only had to fight it 3 times at the same time to win, which is why all 3 of them fought. Afaik, they each pretty much solo'd their own version of Solaris. Finally, if Base Sonic in Generations surpasses Super Sonic in Adventure, I think it's safe to say that SS2 in Frontiers surpasses 3 Supers in '06.

[@AMDGAMING110]

To end this all for yall... The moon is just william afton in fnaf 2738 and he just wanted to kill ancients cuz he thought them kids💀💀💀💀

[@willowboy_618]

8:58 Ik it's kinda out of the topic but man I can't get over by the fact of Infinite being the strongest enemy Sonic has ever faced considering how he was beaten even without going Super Sonic while Dark Gaia required Super. Or is Dark Gaia not considered a villain since it's destruction itself?

[@twotoned_echos]

Who said Infinite was the strongest enemy? He's clearly *too weak* for consideration 💀

[@djdarkskinss6415]

Remember the End can take many forms it’s what the individual see death resemble of.

[@RadzPrower]

I just interpreted The End as an embodiment of a force of nature (death, entropy, oblivion, etc.). The whole inevitable and oblivion and that The End comes for you all. Even destroying the physical form of The End that we see as a purple moon...those things will still come, so The End's not entirely a fraud. Sonic just stopped that from happening today and at the hands of The End, but it will inevitably happen to everyone and everything eventually.

[@AnimationDude_]

Before Update 3, when THE END was just a moon, whenever I heard Sage say "Not even Super Sonic will be able to stop it", I always replied in my Sonic Voice; "Haha! A moon can stop me? Shut up! I'm gonna pee on it now!"

[@Nite-Rise]

Dang, the thought of Shadow being sealed in the classic era hits different Sooo many power houses are sealed during this time. It’s kinda crazy

[@DragonOfTheNorth7799]

The end is hella powerful

[@ghostspider2056]

I don’t mind The End’s appearance since it’s basically an eldritch monster that’s beyond all comprehension.

[@BLUESTREAK91]

Heres what I think about all of this and its pretty simple! This is just the sorta thing that happens within the Sonic community when one thing in Sonic media is a bit overanalyzed and is thought about way too deep! At this point it doesnt even matte wether or not "The End" is still potentially alive or not! It can take whatever form it wants and as long as it causes no physical harm to any of us that's always a W in my book! Let's all just calm down and wait for the next mainline Sonic game to be revealed!

[@TopherCadence]

Idk I’ve seen people say that Sonic Superstars is like a flashback almost, like, the end is there because “I saw your mind while you ran through my prison” the end saw all of Sonic’s adventures. Idk that’s my fav take on it being there anyway

[@brandonharris7516]

I wonder what would happen if it was me and Rex in this story

[@nullandvoid7524]

The problem here is the line "This incarnation" Part of me believes that The End was a combination of two beings, as we hear a male and female voice in it's monologue. Towards the end of the fight The Ends dialogue almost comes across as childish and it's coming exclusively from the female voice. Maybe at some point the Male entity split off knowing they weren't strong enough to win while the boastful female entity stayed behind to fight. But why would she do this? To quote the Male entity "Arrogance, ignorance, stupidity" by the end of the battle that The End is clearly losing this Female entity is still referring to Sonic as nothing more than a gnat. Sure "The End" may be dead but I'm thinking whatever that Male entity was Survived and will be back at some point.

[@speedude0164]

It seems pretty clear to me that the dark moon isn't actually The End's true form. Sage establishes in the original ending that it's trying to regain its full strength and we need to stop it before it does so, and the fight ends with the true form about to come out, but Sage sacrifices herself to destroy it just in time. To further support this, if 4 Titans are no match for a full power End and Super Sonic is no match for a full power End, I highly doubt Super Sonic and Supreme would be what does it. The version of The End that destroyed worlds and threatened the Ancients, we never actually fought (though I think the Final Horizon End comes close in power as it realized it would never hold out long enough against Cyber Sonic and decided to channel its power through the much smaller Supreme instead). Now that we have a much better boss battle to associate with it, I'm a big fan of that. The End at full strength is so powerful that if you let it get to that level, you've already lost. This makes the visual of it floating above you during the Final Horizon final boss so much scarier, as it's a reminder of the apocalypse brewing inside that moon you're fighting to prevent.

[@xxmurderer7xx287]

I wanted to fight The End directly and not just a powered up Supreme

[@comicfan1324]

OK, hear me out here, is it possible that purple rock from superstars is just a Little Planet?

[@NeddiTheBunnyFox]

I like to think both endings are cannon due to the fact that they have the same results as sage comes back in the original ending and stays alive in the new ending.

[@XAutumnXonYT]

I kinda love how the end looks cos it has 2 of my 3 favourite colours. Aka galactic colours. I thought fighting the end itself like it was just one final titan and not that trash shooter mini game I would be happier, but I can still immensely appreciate the new final boss.

[@mattevans4377]

Since the Solaris timeline got deleted, as far as Sonic knows, The End was his toughest enemy.

[@tailsfan10]

Classic Twitter. Yeah, The End didn't seem all that at first but I think it really worked out in the Update. Sometimes, I question some of the other people who are "fans" of Sonic. They tend to just find a way to shit on EVERYTHING they try to put out. All Ian said was that it was dead and everyone lost it. But when Solaris died or when Dark Gaia wasn't said to return until Sonic basically is long dead, nobody was mad and just constantly asks for the same bosses back. At least two people here made his point (10:35). They don't need to come back, that's why we even have The End because they just try to come out with newer things instead of recycling villains (almost like in Sonic Forces, which didn't work). If nobody has paid attention, they're improving from that. Is that NOT what everyone wanted? Sometimes people just don't know what they truly want from this series. If they want it to fall, they should just say so at this point. Sorry for the rant and have a good day everyone

[@vrokortac9457]

I’m glad, The End is utterly unworthy to return, and I’ll be glad if we never see it again. Also, bosses boasting about their strength is not unheard of in Sonic

[@OMR3333]

My headcanon was that the end was gonna comeback multiple times (each one with a different appearance) and that it was destroyed with a single hit by Cyber Sonic was set up by the end to return again in the future I'm not mad that the End won't come back, but I felt that it was underwhelming PS: Can I over analyze what Ian said? He's talking about the blue moon for 2 reasons 1 He's making fun of us by saying that we complain about the smalles details (which is kinda true ngl) 2 It's actually the ancients' higher power (the Zap symbol) because it's blue, just like everything that's ancient-like

[@reggielacey2235]

The end being number 2 doesn't make sense as it only took super sonic to bear solaris. And no it wasn't 3v1 like some people claim or was 3 separate 1v1s in the past present and future.

[@KOTSOSMC2002]

Whats lame about this is that the franchise once again just feels aimless. The End (what wiped out the ancient civilizations we've been learning little things about since 1998) would have been the perfect choice for an overaching villain. I get the "purple moon dumb" criticism, easy fix, change its form, make it something else, but keep the character/concept of the End alive. All this information we have about lost alien races is pretty much now wasted. The Ancients, the Gizoids, the Babylonians, the unknown civilizations teased by all the myriad of thousand-year-old ruins we've ran through over the years from S3&K to S4:EP1 to SA to 06 to Unleashed to Lost World and everything in-between? Maybe even some Echidna clans? Wouldn't it have been cool if they tied the End to all that? That it was the End that wiped out all life in the past? A gateway to dive deeper into Light/Dark Gaia and Gaia energy in general, maybe recontextualize it as a failed project to defeat the End, a bioweapon, not to different from Project Shadow on that regard? The End could have been our Thanos, the villain of all villains, the one that could have hyped up and united the fanbase, all unanimously screaming "IT ALL COMES TO THIS! IT'S ALL COMING TOGETHER, LET'S GO BABY". The End could have been what the Reapers were in Mass Effect, if you know about Mass Effect you know how raw peak that would have been, make the End's sole purpose be wiping out all life in the galaxy with the same tension, horror and efficiency the Reapers did in that franchise. But no... No, it was all just a purple rock. We could have had it all, the perfect antagonist to one of the greatest legacy franchises of all time, the villain of all villains, the thign we could have looked back to after a decade and "Yeah, that was peak fiction, truly a masterpiece". No. It's just a purple rock. There's nothing more to it, no geeky theories, no nerdy epic stories about to unfold, no promises of the ultimate power fantasy. It was all just a purple rock... THAT'S what sucks, THAT'S why this is a controversy. I get that the fanbase is notoriously toxic and whiney but my God is it totally warranted this time.

[@SonicHubYT]

I see you what you mean, that does make a lot of sense. For me, the story was so confusing the way it was told, and maybe needed a little more time to flesh it out fully because I swear I didn't even know wtf the end was. The first impression I had with it was was killed everything for me. I think a lot of what we know about the boss I had to discover well after the story so maybe if they made it all more clear throughout what we were dealing with, I would maybe feel more disappointed about not seeing it again.

[@SonicHubYT]

You know what that does make a lot of sense I didn't really think of it that way. I agree that the potential for the boss was definitely missed, I just think the rushed original ending to the game soured my perception of it, and the boss design didn't help. The way they tell frontiers story needed just like a little more time to cook and to be more clear because I swear on my first playthrough I had no idea wtf the end even was lol.

[@jareader3295]

Even if I don't like the end that much, I do see where your going with your idea of villian of all villians idea. Kinda reminds me of how Kirby pulled that off with Dark matter/Void Termina.

[@KOTSOSMC2002]

@@jareader3295 Yeah, I think it would have been really cool. Imagine if we got some sort of flashback or texts of lore about the Black Arms (I'm gonna refer to Black Doom's species as the Black Arms since we have no idea what they're actually called, I know the Black Arms technically aren't Black Doom's species, I digress) for instance, showing us that they were once not the belligerent and conquering race we saw them as in Shadow the Hedgehog but something more in line with, idk, how the Qunari were in Dragon Age or the modern Mandalorians in Star Wars, aggressive to be sure but isolated, more interested in upholding their traditions and honor than anything else. What if the End obliterated their homeworld ages ago far away from Earth and Black Doom was amongst the only survivors of it, becoming more savage and primal while in search of a new home to immigrate/conquer before stumbling upon Earth with the Black Comet? Terrorized the planet a bit until he found warnings of the Ancients about the End and got scared, left the planet only to return 2000 years later braver than ever, make a deal with Gerald Robotnik and invade the planet once and for all once his Ultimate Lifeform was ready for action? How cool would that have been? To make the End THAT involved with the lore, retroactively making past villains like Black Doom and the Black Arms way more nuanced and interesting in the process. Again, this is why I'm mad the End essentially leads to nowhere due to it being a one-and-done villain, like what's even the point then.

[@Cloke100]

Personally the dlc final boss wasn't in improvement, just fighting Supreme again.

[@tonythunder6048]

Forget about the end what about Mephilis and Iblis, since Solaris was blown out and never exist, how in the world are the 3 of them still a thing in the classic era, like technically timeline wise, makes since but at the same time since it was destroyed in the past present and future all at the same time, why would Ian mention them?

[@buckettrap]

I don't know, I kinda liked the End as a malevolent planetoid. It adds a cosmic vibe to it and its unique.

[@thebubsy3dgamer]

The OG bullet hell fight against The End is still the best boss in the entire game. Man, if Kirby fans were like Sonic fans, they would riot about half of the true final bosses in the whole franchise. Lol.

[@JefferyKnight-v3v]

That’s gonna be awesome

[@CSTH1]

I can never be happy with this fanbase. As soon as I start feeling good about it, they come in and have another argument about something that's apparently a big deal NOW, but wasn't as much on release. The amount of arguments is honestly making my brain hurt and it's just tiresome to me. I know it's Twitter and they do stuff like this all the time, but that doesn't make anything better, since there's still a big problem. This is why I never plan on getting Twitter, X, whatever you want to call it.

[@tailsfan10]

Same here. I really question this fanbase sometimes because it's just a lot of bickering about things that should already make sense. In this case, The End is clearly dead now. It's not coming back. It could be in Superstars as a frozen body, but they're just theories and it could only be an Easter Egg

[@CSTH1]

@@tailsfan10 I always thought it was just a Frontiers nod and nothing else. Although, I do think fair discussions have their place. Some examples are ones that are still affecting the Sonic series such as the whole timeline placement of my games, and also just your causal and civil debates about games, but when people start insulting each other and calling that an argument, then it's no longer an argument. In my opinion, this should have been addressed on release because it would have been a lot more relevant then. Would it be cool to see The End again? Sure. Do we need to see it again? No, if past villains have been given the same treatment. Sure, it'd be new, but people don't like the "fake moon" design, so I don't know what else they could do. I do think people's thoughts are valid, but count me out of this one...

[@dominicfnaf8040]

If the purple moon in superstars is the end I don't see how the mobians thought a purple moon was normal and not strange at all

[@chrisvalencia4230]

How could people think that sonic villains returning is bad? Fang returned in superstars. I see no problem in sonic villains making a return

[@Dark_0verlord]

The coolest moon in the Sonic franchise is the moon from Hang Castle (which may or may not be alive).

[@sigmartmsr1141]

i love how most sonic fans don't even know what is ikaruga

[@CanaldoZenny]

People were expecting The End to come back? Every villain Super Sonic defeated never came back, has been like this since SA1. Fans just don't want to admit ST went with a moon design because it was easier to model and animate. Ans because Frontiers' story is inspired by an old japanese novel about the moon or something, as revealed by Kishimoto in one interview. Also, the English script should never been taken as the canon story. Ian Flynn just adapted the dialogue in the western version, the official story is the japanese version written by Kishimoto himself, which has a different interpretation for The End.

[@Michael-bb5dd]

Well, this aged badly. Ian himself said that his take on The End, and on Twitter/Bumblekast in general, is just his own opinion and not anything actually official.

[@AyumuTheTamer]

So everyone is mad that “the end” got blown up. That thing was just gloating before it got blown up. The main villain in this series is Eggman and im ok with that. Eggman will find or create a much more deadlier entity, which is what we have always had in the series. Personally, despite that game being thrash to play the best villain in the series (in my opinion) was Mephilies and the most missed potential villain is Infinite. The end from what I’ve seen in KZbin and the little amount of time of played through frontiers is just average.

[@ashemabahumat4173]

It's literally Azathoth/Nibiru/Planet X. Chaos incarnate, the blind idiot god. Can't observe it's true form directly, otherwise you'll go mad. Feels like people either don't get that or dont know what those concepts/characters are

[@Absolute_boyo]

7:17

[@BreakerJackaltheChaosSource]

Everyone is really complaining about the End not coming back?! When even enemies with better reasons and lore could come back? Like there's no way every last being of the Dark Arms was on that one asteroid, there's nothing stopping the Nocturnus clan from coming and being Canon, There's nothing saying Honey the cat can't come back or we couldn't have sister Sonic still exist. But we are gonna complain about a purple rock that is a God that Sonic is confirmed going to kill because he's killed every other god who's come before. You all should be arguing over when does Classic Robotnick team up with Doctor Eggman again!!!!!

[@akongas]

I actually liked THE END, it’s memorable… I agree, that it could have been more “huge” but it was alright, plenty of other bosses that are forgettable.

[@heroicgangster9981]

Honestly it is too early to say how The End will be written post-Frontiers, and it is just Ian Flynn just being straight forward and literal with how he explains the current stance of The End in the Sonic franchise. He's not expected to be the PR of Sonic so he explains how The End is SUPPOSED to be seen. As another Sonic final boss. BUTTTTT, I love Ian Flynn but yeah that is a lame way of thinking about the villain with how much lingering presence they have. To me I view the The End as a potential Sonic character itself. I think Sonic could steal from Persona 3 and make The End as an eternal presence that always watches over Sonic for some strange reason. And itself gaining more sentience, personality, and perspective from watching over Sonic's adventures. The symbol of death itself being a presence that Sonic sometimes sees throughout his life. And through Sonic, Sonic will see that perhaps a reincarnation of The End grew to not only be death, but have its own life. Something that plays around the usual villain to "friends" trope that would be interesting to see. It can work just see Persona 3 lol

[@xavierkittreles1998]

Is it still Planet Mobius where Sonic and his friends live in?

[@NiNj_indisguise]

The end is watching sonic from cyberspace he probably has like a vision from the cyberspace or some thing it’s like him viewing from there and him like appearing that’s how.

[@NiNj_indisguise]

Maybe the beginning could create planets like Mobius but it’s strange how it’s there the beginning is a name for the weird blue ball but you could probably create planets they want to tie in the lore it wouldn’t make sense if it made Mobius because it’s still sticking around and we haven’t seen this in a sonic game yet

[@brandonharris7516]

What if one of the boss was Mechagodzilla or the last one as a surprise

[@namersonuncle4971]

The only underwhelming part of the end, besides the design, was the Galactica styledboss fight

[@SonicHubYT]

The shooting mini game boss was such a slap in the face to the build up of the game imo lol. Update 3 fixes that but still that first impression was rough

[@kbennett365]

The End is just a Brethren Moon

[@biohazardbin]

I don't think you really understand why we're mad at The End not coming back. We're upset because it is an omnipresent entity with multiple incarnations and embodies the concept of Death. The Moon is symbolic, which I get flies over many people's heads. The problem is this entity has multiple incarnations as stated in game, and with Flynn sitting here going "nah it was just boasting" is almost immediate proof that we should not trust anything this guy says. You don't boast by saying you have multiple forms. You don't boast by saying you are the LITERAL CONCEPT OF DEATH. This is quite literally the entire reason why I never believe anything Ian Flynn says. He is a comic book writer, his statements only matter when it is regarding the comics, and even then I feel as if he forgets what he is writing.

[@SpeederLight]

Honestly i was hoping for a reincarnation of the end but since ian flynn said its gone, its gone. So now its time to speculate and critical think on how the next boss could be even more deadly than the end 😅

[@tailsfan10]

Maybe not more deadly than The End, but something probably on Sonic's level and a bit threatening. Or it could just be Eggman with another devious plot

[@Cappuccinoo123]

Why didnt it take an organic hostage instead of a dumb robot. Could've hijacked amy and pretended to be her or manipulated her mind while powering her up to be able to fight sonic and sonic might think he got betrayed by amy or that he betrayed amy by avoiding her all these years till she gave up on chasing him. Would've also had the risk of needing to kill amy if the enemy doesn't leave her body or if there's no way to expel it. Character development for both the enemy and amy wasted. Story ending wasted, New update 3 story wasted. Enemy being a threat wasted. Difficult boss battle? Always wasted..

[@staticplays1871]

That makes no sense. Well it does not completely make sense for a few reasons. 1 it this could be a writter's fallacy knowing what the end said in the orginal ending, and if they wanted to be adiment that they did not want bring it back the end should have been more concerned of it's death or shocked that sonic could kill it. 2. Ian Flynn said that the alien race looks like chaos because they did not want to just make a new alien and they wanted to make things feels more unified in the sonic universe so why would that stop at the final boss. 3 knowing how powerful the end is it just could not have been fully destroyed, they maybe destroyed it mind but not its power. since alot of theories about solaris is that the time eater and Gaia are fractions of solaris or even Memphis due to having similar goals and ideas and even look similar from a design stand point. 4 And if we are taking update 3 at face value then shouldn't the end care more that its about to die. But even then you could just make the same argument about the end being similar to mephlis and the nature of them being a force and not a being. 5 (correct me if this is the star fall event) we see pecies of the end fall to earth. And Sega themselves said that sage has a similar look to infinite. And the only reason she looks red is because she was corrupted because of the end's power. So they just inadvertently linked the end to infinte who did not die at the end of forces. Either way I know I should not be objecting to the writter's choices on how they tell their stories, trust me I know. I like the comics because they know when to move on to the next thing. But Sega themselves said that the end is how we see death. So it does not need to come back as the moon it could literally be anything. Either way its cool of they don't bring it back but it would be cool if they do bring it and link it to other villians.

[@joegomez5463]

I was literally arguing this before. People were like "Bro, the end said its the most powerful....it is....the it said it in the game!" And I was like "Yes, and I'm a 6'5" millionare with a bugatti, its real becase I said it right????" I think the end, and always have thought the end was over exaggerating its self. I'm not aaying it's "Weak" by any means, but def. Think its weaker than it says it is its self. I also think, that this scales back some of the feats / powerscaling that fans interjected about super sonic / the titans / the end, and thats part of why the discourse exists. Personally, I dont care much for the end, I think it's a stupid boss, and even if it looked cooler, it taked too much crap. Dark Gaia is my fav lmao.....

[@SonicHubYT]

Dark Gaia was the goat

[@ИльфатГалимов-э6ф]

You're talking like you haven't seen Update 3.

[@joegomez5463]

@@ИльфатГалимов-э6ф played it. Still, my opinion is the same. The update 3 boss was only slighty better, but still. Instead of fighing sonic in its own form/ with its own power, it hijacks a titan? Kinda lame imo.

[@Cloke100]

​@@joegomez5463someone gets it

[@KevinMelendez-qw7vf]

6:54 I was also dying at that

[@IchigoKurosakitheSalvation]

All I got to say is... the Sonic franchise really got something against the solar system. Destroying moons, planets, even the sun (Sonic Forces). What's next?.

[@deniseg9210]

I honestly don’t care that it’s dead. I don’t think it’s necessary to see The End again. Besides the only god in the series that’s made more then one appearance is Chaos while the other ones are dead. Like I’m fine with this being The End’s only appearance.

[@skycaboose]

Personally im more so concerned if we see Super Sonic 2 again in the future over some stupid rock i get that it took harnessing the Cyber corruption combined with the chaos emeralds to reach that level of power but its still cool to see sonic have an evolved transformation (though even if Hyper Sonic did at 1 point exist its no longer canon which yeah sucks but its no longer canon) so hopefully Sega will let that transformation be canon and Sonic will have someway to tap into that power again desipte presuming not having the Cyber corruption anymore

[@Jonrocks7]

Since the end “varies in appearance from person to person” and apparently the sonic cast that was included sees a purple moon as death itself, then why didn’t they have some form of reaction when they see their form (i want to say her so badly bc they were a female in the original story but was changed to sound a bit more masculine in the final horizon’s story) it would have been cool if sonic had like a small panic when he saw them for the first time, also it pains me that such a cool color pallete (I actually like the moons design, especially when it zooms in) was crafted into such a lame boss. (Still gave me trouble since i somehow struggled for like an hour on the original fight)

[@KOTSOSMC2002]

You can hear both a male and a female performance in the End's voice as soon as it drops the act of pretending to guide Sonic around. I don't think it was ever meant to be of any gender.

[@Jonrocks7]

@@KOTSOSMC2002 ok

[@tailsfan10]

Sometimes, I think it was only a moon because Sonic really doesn't fear much. He even gets over his fear of water at times. Because of that, The End's form to Sonic is nothing that could scare him so it's just a moon. Believe it or not, Sonic's quite the fearless individual

[@JefferyKnight-v3v]

Wait wasn’t done superstars

[@deniseg9210]

Think that was just a place holder.

[@agentclank8183]

To be fair The End could be infinite if they decided to have a point system instead of a score system.

[@TrimpingSku11Cracker]

The End, or as I like to call it... The Lean Moon.